David Oliphant
Re: [OBRA Chat] Observation on field sizes at Masters Races so far this year
I've observed over the last few years that the trend for some 40+ Cat 2 primarily masters racers actually will downgrade to Cat 3 so that they can compete in the 40+ open races....place well....then when the race promoters change the Masters race to 40+ Cat 3,4,5....they then can also place well. If the race promoters got smart and changed the races to 35+ Cat 1,2,3...well this would really foul up their dominating ways and their possible winning streak(s).
ha,ha
----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Bruce
To: Karsten Hagen ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Observation on field sizes at Masters Races so farthis year
Karsten,
Thanks for the feedback!
I think a 30-39 category would only dilute things further, which is what we are trying to correct.
Another suggestion I have heard is this:
Masters 35+ 1,2,3 and Masters 35+ 4,5 for all races.
Two different Masters categories to accommodate the skill and fitness levels (1,2,3 and 4,5) and secondly, lower the age to 35 to increase the overall number of potential participants: (particularly for the 1,2,3 field).
We are seeing that there is no problem at all getting field participation for Masters 4,5-but the 1,2,3 field is getting smaller with the separation of all Masters into 3 different groups. So, by lowering the age a bit (but not too far), maybe we can add some numbers to the 1,2,3 field. Racers who are 50+ would have their choice of racing their category in this scenario: 1,2,3 or 4,5. This would move those 20-23 current participants in the 50+ category into one or the other of the 2 fields and boost them both.
Just as I was getting ready to hit send on this e-mail, I just noticed Mike Murray's post. I totally get his/your take on the anti-standardization/free market stance. Veru Oregonian J
I am a VP for a very large (116 country) non profit organization and from an operational standpoint for us, standardization has been a key ingredient to synergy and success. No biggie. Like Mike says, if organizers/promoters analyze data and the market, they may all come to a place of standardization independently, without being coerced or forced into it.
Anyway, I am not advocating a 35+ 1,2,3 and 35+ 4,5 categories necessarily. I just throw it out there as a suggestion that I heard that may or may not be worthy of consideration.
Thanks for gentlemanly and womanly dialogue! Very refreshing!
Greg
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Dr. Greg Bruce
PFM
Vice President- Western US
Tel: 541-948-3051
Fax: 541-382-4895
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From: Karsten Hagen [mailto:hagenkt@mac.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 6:29 PM
To: Greg Bruce; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Observation on field sizes at Masters Races so far this year
OK
There's a lot of racing out there for masters 40+, but very little for 30-39. When I raced in Wisconsin, the masters 30-39 fields were consistently full, fast and fun. The races were shorter to accommodate the fact that many in the field worked long hours, tried to be good parents and thus found extended training sessions impossible. Plus, most importantly, we were getting older and slower. I don't think I'm the only guy in his 30's in Oregon trying to balance work, family and his addic....um....racing.
I understand adding yet another category to local crits, road races, etc. is a major headache, but consider this example: Banana Belt's final cat 3 sprint craziness would have been a lot less crowded, slow and dangerous if the field was much smaller. I'd guess half that field could have raced a masters 30-39 category. The danger is, of course, that we could soon have separate masters 32-34 right handed vs. left handed fields further divided into astrological signs and eye color, etc....but I don't think that's ultimately necessary.
I'm just saying that, in general, a large group of masters men could have their own viable racing field pretty consistently all season long.
Karsten Hagen
On 4/1/08 5:09 PM, "Greg Bruce" wrote:
Since OBRA land is such a grace filled, open, accepting and tolerant society of cycling enthusiasts, I thought I would offer up an observation. NOTE, I am making an observation only and will leave it to others to offer up their take on why it might be so.
Here it is: Taking a look at the bigger early season road races so far this year (Cherry Pie, Banana Belt Series, Piece of Cake), I have noticed that the inclusion of a Masters 40+ cat 4,5 field has resulted in huge fields for that category. In contrast, the Masters 1,2,3 fields have been pretty sparse by comparison.
I then look at a race like Willamette Valley SR, where the Masters category is open to all 40+ racers regardless of category. In other words, there is no break out of category. If you are a Cat 5 Masters racer, you will be fighting it out with Cat 1 Masters racers and vice versa. Now, I am unable to look up the most recent count, but at last count a couple days ago, there were like 13 people pre-registered to race Masters 40+ at Willamette. Clearly, more people will show up and race, but there probably won't be the 60-80 participants that there could be.
So, what to make of all of this. Maybe nothing at all. A few things are clear though. There are a lot of Masters 4,5 racers out there and they clearly enjoy racing their bikes. OK, I am going beyond observation here and inferring some things-actually, I may be opining a bit---
These Masters 4,5 racers might even enjoy racing their bikes with other people of their category and fitness level and when that opportunity presents itself, they show up. When lumped together with people who are so much faster, they might tend to decide to take that week off from racing. Maybe? Or Maybe it is just a coincidence?
Two years ago at the Willamette Valley SR, they broke the Masters up into 2 different races: a 1,2,3 and a 3,4,5-There were 49 people who registered for the 3,4,5 Masters race that year. Interesting, I think.
Frankly, I am not sure what to make of it all. Some of the folks on my team who are Cat 3 Masters are kind of stuck in the middle. We have been opting to race with the open Cat 3's of late, in order to be a part of a bigger field of racers, as opposed to feeling like we are traveling great distances to participate in a race field that is more like a glorified group ride (in terms of size).
I am not suggesting any change to anything, because I am not sure there is anything that needs fixing. I am just sharing an observation. But, if I were a race promoter/organizer, I might find this data interesting and worth considering.
With the April Fools and Sprint dialogue dissipating, I thought we might all enjoy another potential topic of discussion.
Lastly, at Cherry Pie and the Banana Belts, there have been an additional 20-23 racers in the Masters 50+ category. So, we seem to be getting 80-100 participants showing up for all of the different Masters Categories at the early season races.
Has there been any consideration to standardizing the Masters Categories for all the races? Some races have Masters 40+ open; some have 3 different categories (1,2,3-4,5 and 50+), some like King's Valley only have Masters 3,4,5; 2 years ago, Willamette had a 1,2,3 and a 3,4,5. Silverton has done a Masters 35+ cat 3,4 (2005) and a Masters 40+ Cat 3,4 (2006) of late. Others opt to lump everyone together, but score them separately. It is all over the place: JUST AN OBSERVATION.
Anyway...
Event: 2008 Masters 4,5 # of Participant finishers Masters 1,2,3 # of Participant finishers
Cherry Pie 61 23
Banana Belt 48 28
Banana Belt 2 42 20
Banana Belt 3 41 25
Piece of Cake 55 25
Greg Bruce
Hutch's- Bend, OR
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