My Stretchy Pants

I'll ride my speedplays. Wow.

-- Robert Synak

zak

im pretty sure koichi nakano had an entourage of japanese girls that followed him around. like gwen stefani and her harajuku girls.

example: http://www.aolcdn.com/red_galleries/gwen-stefani-harajuku-girls-400a062207.jpg

i couldnt find any nakano of nakano's gang tho.

________________________________
> From: jboquiren@comcast.net
> To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:56:15 +0000
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for clips at Alpenrose
>
> This sounds very medieval, kinda like the squire carrying the knight's coat-of-arms and shields to the tourney :)
> The track riders could have their squires or track monkeys carry their banners in ceremony before the meet and have the heralds announce their arrival.
>
> Ok, I've taken this to a new low
>
> Joseph B.
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Sprinters generally have an assistant or male cheerleader of some sort that go with them. I am not going to even start to speculate into the psychological aspects of this sort of thing. Unlocking the rider from his pedals is surely the least task assigned to them.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
>
> --Forwarded Message Attachment--
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for clips at Alpenrose
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 02:29:09 +0000
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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jboquiren@comcast.net

This sounds very medieval, kinda like the squire carrying the knight's coat-of-arms and shields to the tourney :)
The track riders could have their squires or track monkeys carry their banners in ceremony before the meet and have the heralds announce their arrival.

Ok, I've taken this to a new low

Joseph B.

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Mike Murray"

Sprinters generally have an assistant or male cheerleader of some sort that go with them. I am not going to even start to speculate into the psychological aspects of this sort of thing. Unlocking the rider from his pedals is surely the least task assigned to them.

Mike Murray

Mike Murray

Back when all racers were using Campy pedals Cinelli made the "monoblock"
cleat. It was a giant hunk of plastic that was affixed to the bottom of the
show and went inside the Campy pedal surrounding the pedal axle housing.
Impossible to walk on but really kept you in. You can see a picture at:

http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pedalmuseum.straps

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Michael O'Hair
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 20:30 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

I designed a track pedal/cleat/shoe system that I can guarantee will never
pull out accidentally.

Basically, it's a 5/8" diameter bolt that goes through a block that is
permanently attached to the shoe with several bolts. A nut/washer is then
torqued on (135 to 140 foot-pounds) and you are ready to race.

The prototypes were a bit heavy ( 2.34 pounds each ) but they will not
unclip by accident. And what's a couple of pounds to a trackie?

By the way, if you have to ask what they cost, you can't afford them.

Steve Brown

In my opinion this is the best thread OBRA has ever had. It does not
get any better than getting to discuss and share about what type of
pedals to use for sprinting. My wife is not interested, my kids
could care less and people at work just shake their heads or roll
their eyes. The only other time you get to have this type of exchange
is the 15 minute rest between those hard 30 second efforts at the
track. Does anyone want to talk about Keirin grips vs tape?

Steve Brown
On Apr 15, 2008, at 8:22 AM, Darell C. Provencher wrote:

> OK I'll join in. I've raced track at Alpenrose for 27 consecutive
> years. My first shoes were Vittorias with wood outsoles. Carl
> Leusencamp helped me nail in my first standard cleats to fit my
> Gipiemme track pedals. Never came out of those, but the shoes
> hurt. Over the years I've used track pedals (Campy and Gipiemme)
> and clipless. With the track pedals I've used 1 strap, 2 straps
> (Alfredo Binda were the best), and I've tightened them by hand,
> pliers (and even used Brian Abers with pliers -- ouch), and vice
> grips. I went clipless about 8 years ago. I've used Look, Time, and
> Shimano. Worst setup for me was back in 1997 when I had a pair of
> Diadoras with yellow "standard" track cleats with Campy track
> pedals. I probably pulled out of those at least six times that
> year in kilo or pursuit starts, including my kilo start at Masters
> Natz (cost me a definite 3rd place). I found the cleat slot to be
> about a half millimeter too wide, plus they wore down too fast. My
> favorite combination are the old style Shimano Dura Ace pedals,
> cranked all the way down, with SH70 fixed (no rotation) cleats.
> I've never pulled out with that combination. I did however pull
> out a few times in previous years when I had the SH71 rotational
> cleats attached. Since the USCF took away a second chance to start
> the kilo (or 500m), we've also learned how to have a "mishap"
> within 10 meters of the start and fall down, so we can start again.
> Crazy.
>
> I agree with everything that Mike Murray Steve Brown had to say,
> Also, sprinting at full speed on a 42 degree bank in a fixed gear
> is very different that sprinting on flat earth. Crazy things can
> happen in that situation, so the more secure the better.
>
> Darell
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Michael Ford
> wrote:
> What about the retro system, with those cleats you can get (Yoshida
> makes
> them, as does MKS) that attach to Look-compatible shoes, to allow
> you to
> "clip" into standard road or track "cage" pedals, like older Campy
> or MKS
> pedals? I don't know how secure that attachment is, or how you
> unclip (twist
> to the side?), but the advantage would be that it's easily
> supplemented with
> single or double straps, as that's what those pedals are intended for.
>
> If it works, it would be very cost-effective, because those cleats
> are only
> $20/30, they work with normal road shoes, and cage pedals can be
> very cheap.
> Or is that what Donna was talking about below, with her "old-school
> Dura-Ace
> sprint pedals with straps"?
>
> Mike
>
> > Message: 26
> > Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:31:47 -0700
> > From: "Mike Murray"
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > To:
> > Message-ID: <000001c89e98$78f3f290$9801a8c0@MikeLT>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> > http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
> >
> > Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of
> difficulty
> > getting them off riders who are on the deck.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Steve Brown
> > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> > To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >
> >
> > MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock
> you in.
> > You
> > have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system
> as Donna
> > but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to
> get.
> >
> > On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with
> clipless pedals
> > (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals
> with
> > straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As
> long as I
> > make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps
> tight, I'm
> > good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system
> if my
> > life
> > depended on it...oh wait, it does.
> >
> > Donna Smith
> >
> >
> > So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are
> you
> > using
> > for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you
> and what
> > has NOT worked ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > JD
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> >
> > I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination
> that
> > NEVER
> > comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
> > inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with
> clips and
> > straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a
> failure of the
> > pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an
> SPD or
> > other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
> > actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really
> only
> > practical for top level timed events and sprints.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs
> to be
> > dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is
> OK for
> > training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no
> rule
> > against it but I think it should be avoided.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less
> about
> > strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes
> tend to
> > be
> > stiffer than road shoes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of john
> > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> > To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> > A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
> >
> > Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
> > sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate
> clip
> > versus clipless with them.
> >
> > However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
> > probably preferred since they release without a struggle or
> without having
> > to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track
> racers
> > that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless
> pedals
> > and
> > thus same shoes as on their road bike.
> >
> > If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with
> clipless
> > pedals
> > then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer
> more
> > free
> > rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have
> ever used
> > were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals,
> LOOK too
> > now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large
> angle so
> > never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is
> undefined and
> > small pedal to shoe interface.
> >
> > If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat,
> since
> > there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned
> properly,
> > preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your
> knees. But
> > even
> > then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so
> probably saved
> > knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups
> stiffened, knee
> > injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot
> likes to do
> > through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe
> and clip
> > pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i
> for sure
> > would have issues...
> >
> > If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip
> Pedals,
> > it
> > is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track
> racing is
> > more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe
> stiffness is
> > not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
> >
> > 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove
> with
> > grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily
> goes into
> > the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you
> could
> > maybe
> > even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with
> a fibrous
> > insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly
> stiff. .
> >
> > 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> > platform
> > pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a
> thin plate
> > pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of
> your
> > foot
> > and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
> >
> > Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a
> little
> > further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of
> clipping the
> > Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also
> since the
> > races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is
> digging
> > into
> > your foot.
> >
> > Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a
> nice
> > collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there
> are still
> > purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike
> central ..
> > Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three
> hole Look
> > Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the
> cleat when
> > worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like
> walkable shoes
> > for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release
> here and
> > there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg
> snapped. So
> > not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
> >
> >
> >
> > My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> >
> > I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats,
> and have
> > a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I
> stick in
> > the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the
> cleats? I
> > tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for
> a few
> > weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers
> were the
> > wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important
> religious
> > matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a
> purpose
> > built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
> >
> > Robert Synak
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > john m schmidt, pe
> > portland oregon
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> > http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/d18564d6/
> attachment.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 27
> > Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:42:28 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: steve garcia
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Message-ID: <496182.40427.qm@web56807.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay
> listing
> > said they were NJS though.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Mike Murray
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >
> >
> > That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> > http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
> >
> > Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of
> difficulty
> > getting them off riders who are on the deck.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Steve Brown
> > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> > To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >
> >
> > MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock
> you in.
> > You have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same
> system as
> > Donna but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are
> easier to
> > get.
> >
> >
> > On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with
> clipless pedals
> > (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals
> with
> > straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As
> long as I
> > make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps
> tight, I'm
> > good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system
> if my
> > life depended on it...oh wait, it does.
> > Donna Smith
> >
> >
> > So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are
> you
> > using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working
> for you and
> > what has NOT worked ?
> >
> >
> > JD
> >
> >
> > On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> > I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
> >
> >
> > 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination
> that
> > NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents
> caused by
> > inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with
> clips and
> > straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a
> failure of the
> > pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an
> SPD or
> > other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
> > actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really
> only
> > practical for top level timed events and sprints.
> >
> >
> > 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs
> to be
> > dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
> >
> >
> > 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is
> OK for
> > training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no
> rule
> > against it but I think it should be avoided.
> >
> >
> > 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less
> about
> > strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes
> tend to
> > be stiffer than road shoes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Murray
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of john
> > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> > To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > Robert,
> >
> > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> > A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
> >
> > Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
> > sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate
> clip
> > versus clipless with them.
> >
> > However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
> > probably preferred since they release without a struggle or
> without having
> > to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track
> racers
> > that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless
> pedals
> > and thus same shoes as on their road bike.
> >
> > If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with
> clipless
> > pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals
> that offer
> > more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals
> i have
> > ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type
> pedals,
> > LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite
> a large
> > angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them
> though is
> > undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.
> >
> > If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat,
> since
> > there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned
> properly,
> > preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your
> knees. But
> > even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so
> probably
> > saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups
> > stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of
> rotation you
> > foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i
> first started
> > on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried
> to go back
> > now, i for sure would have issues...
> >
> > If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip
> Pedals,
> > it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start
> Track racing
> > is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe
> stiffness
> > is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
> >
> > 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove
> with
> > grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily
> goes into
> > the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you
> could
> > maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once
> with a
> > fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and
> fairly stiff.
> > .
> >
> > 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> > platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area,
> not a
> > thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with
> the ball
> > of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
> >
> > Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a
> little
> > further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of
> clipping the
> > Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also
> since the
> > races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is
> digging
> > into your foot.
> >
> > Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a
> nice
> > collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there
> are still
> > purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike
> central ..
> > Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three
> hole Look
> > Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the
> cleat when
> > worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like
> walkable shoes
> > for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release
> here and
> > there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg
> snapped. So
> > not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
> >
> >
> >
> > My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> > I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats,
> and have
> > a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I
> stick in
> > the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the
> cleats? I
> > tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for
> a few
> > weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers
> were the
> > wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important
> religious
> > matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a
> purpose
> > built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
> >
> > Robert Synak
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> > john m schmidt, pe
> > portland oregon
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
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> >
> > Message: 28
> > Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:47:10 +0000
> > From: johnfforbes@comcast.net
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > To: steve garcia , obra@list.obra.org
> > Message-ID:
> >
> <041520080147.3126.4804091E00049BB800000C3622147564029C0A0D9D010000020
> 80106@comcast.net>
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Style points, Steve, style points. Now just don't wear any other
> kind of
> > thong...
> >
> > --
> > John Forbes
> > 3641 SW 52nd Place,
> > Portland, OR 97221
> > 503-422-1239
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: steve garcia
> >> So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay
> listing
> >> said they
> >> were NJS though.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Mike Murray
> >> To: obra@list.obra.org
> >> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >>
> >>
> >> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
> >>
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> >> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
> >>
> >> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of
> difficulty
> >> getting
> >> them off riders who are on the deck.
> >>
> >> Mike Murray
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Steve Brown
> >> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> >> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> >> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >>
> >>
> >> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock
> you in.
> >> You
> >> have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same
> system as
> >> Donna but
> >> prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
> >> pedals
> >> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint
> pedals with
> >> straps,
> >> scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I
> make
> >> sure that
> >> I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good
> to go.
> >> I
> >> wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life
> depended on
> >> it...oh wait, it does.
> >> Donna Smith
> >>
> >>
> >> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what
> are you
> >> using for
> >> a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and
> what has
> >> NOT
> >> worked ?
> >>
> >>
> >> JD
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> >> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
> >>
> >>
> >> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination
> that
> >> NEVER
> >> comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
> >> inadvertent
> >> detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
> straps). I
> >> have
> >> never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to
> >> release in a
> >> fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in
> mechanism
> >> AND
> >> straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the
> shoes to the
> >> pedals, although this is really only practical for top level
> timed events
> >> and
> >> sprints.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs
> to be
> >> dabbed.
> >> They should be avoided at the track.
> >>
> >>
> >> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is
> OK for
> >> training
> >> classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
> against it
> >> but I
> >> think it should be avoided.
> >>
> >>
> >> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less
> about
> >> strength a
> >> softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be
> stiffer
> >> than
> >> road shoes.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Murray
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of john
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> >> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >> Robert,
> >>
> >> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> >> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
> >>
> >> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since
> match
> >> sprinters
> >> are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus
> >> clipless
> >> with them.
> >>
> >> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine,
> and
> >> probably
> >> preferred since they release without a struggle or without
> having to
> >> reach down
> >> and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that
> race
> >> omnium
> >> events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus
> same
> >> shoes as on
> >> their road bike.
> >>
> >> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with
> clipless
> >> pedals
> >> then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that
> offer more
> >> free
> >> rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have
> ever used
> >> were
> >> TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
> >> now..),
> >> large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so
> never
> >> accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined
> and
> >> small
> >> pedal to shoe interface.
> >>
> >> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted
> cleat, since
> >> there is
> >> no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
> >> preferably
> >> professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But
> even then,
> >> In the
> >> old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
> knees. if i
> >> recall
> >> correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries
> >> increased.
> >> Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a
> rotation.
> >> I had
> >> no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a
> cleated slot
> >> shoe.
> >> But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...
> >>
> >> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip
> Pedals,
> >> it is
> >> rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track
> racing is
> >> more
> >> about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe
> stiffness is not
> >> as
> >> critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
> >>
> >> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove
> with
> >> grinding
> >> wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
> the clip
> >> pedal.
> >> Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even
> find a
> >> stiff
> >> insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous
> insole... work
> >> in some
> >> fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
> >>
> >> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> >> platform
> >> pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a
> thin plate
> >> pedal
> >> as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your
> foot and
> >> you
> >> want a nice flat surface to do this on..
> >>
> >> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a
> little
> >> further
> >> and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
> >> Alpenrose
> >> banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
> races are
> >> short ,
> >> the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your
> foot.
> >>
> >> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has
> a nice
> >> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there
> are still
> >> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike
> central ..
> >> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three
> hole Look
> >> Style.
> >> Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
> worn. I
> >> use to
> >> use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for
> commuting)
> >> But
> >> seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there..
> and then
> >> once they
> >> didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan
> anymore of
> >> Steel on
> >> Steel pedal to cleat.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> >> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats,
> and have
> >> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I
> stick in
> >> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the
> cleats? I
> >> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for
> a few
> >> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers
> were the
> >> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important
> religious
> >> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a
> purpose
> >> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
> >>
> >> Robert Synak
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> john m schmidt, pe
> >> portland oregon
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> __________
> >> ____
> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> >> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An embedded message was scrubbed...
> > From: steve garcia
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:42:59 +0000
> > Size: 22317
> > Url:
> > http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/22b60811/
> attachment.eml
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
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> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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> >
> >
> > End of OBRA Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17
> > ************************************
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>
>
>
> --
> Note NEW email address is darellp@easystreet.net -- no longer .com
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Darell C. Provencher

OK I'll join in. I've raced track at Alpenrose for 27 consecutive years. My
first shoes were Vittorias with wood outsoles. Carl Leusencamp helped me
nail in my first standard cleats to fit my Gipiemme track pedals. Never came
out of those, but the shoes hurt. Over the years I've used track pedals
(Campy and Gipiemme) and clipless. With the track pedals I've used 1 strap,
2 straps (Alfredo Binda were the best), and I've tightened them by hand,
pliers (and even used Brian Abers with pliers -- ouch), and vice grips. I
went clipless about 8 years ago. I've used Look, Time, and Shimano. Worst
setup for me was back in 1997 when I had a pair of Diadoras with yellow
"standard" track cleats with Campy track pedals. I probably pulled out of
those at least six times that year in kilo or pursuit starts, including my
kilo start at Masters Natz (cost me a definite 3rd place). I found the cleat
slot to be about a half millimeter too wide, plus they wore down too fast.
My favorite combination are the old style Shimano Dura Ace pedals, cranked
all the way down, with SH70 fixed (no rotation) cleats. I've never pulled
out with that combination. I did however pull out a few times in previous
years when I had the SH71 rotational cleats attached. Since the USCF took
away a second chance to start the kilo (or 500m), we've also learned how to
have a "mishap" within 10 meters of the start and fall down, so we can start
again. Crazy.

I agree with everything that Mike Murray Steve Brown had to say, Also,
sprinting at full speed on a 42 degree bank in a fixed gear is very
different that sprinting on flat earth. Crazy things can happen in that
situation, so the more secure the better.

Darell

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Michael Ford wrote:

> What about the retro system, with those cleats you can get (Yoshida makes
> them, as does MKS) that attach to Look-compatible shoes, to allow you to
> "clip" into standard road or track "cage" pedals, like older Campy or MKS
> pedals? I don't know how secure that attachment is, or how you unclip
> (twist
> to the side?), but the advantage would be that it's easily supplemented
> with
> single or double straps, as that's what those pedals are intended for.
>
> If it works, it would be very cost-effective, because those cleats are
> only
> $20/30, they work with normal road shoes, and cage pedals can be very
> cheap.
> Or is that what Donna was talking about below, with her "old-school
> Dura-Ace
> sprint pedals with straps"?
>
> Mike
>
> > Message: 26
> > Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:31:47 -0700
> > From: "Mike Murray"
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > To:
> > Message-ID: <000001c89e98$78f3f290$9801a8c0@MikeLT>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> > http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
> >
> > Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
> > getting them off riders who are on the deck.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Steve Brown
> > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> > To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >
> >
> > MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
> > You
> > have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as
> Donna
> > but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
> >
> > On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
> pedals
> > (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
> > straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I
> > make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight,
> I'm
> > good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my
> > life
> > depended on it...oh wait, it does.
> >
> > Donna Smith
> >
> >
> > So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
> > using
> > for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and
> what
> > has NOT worked ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > JD
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> >
> > I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
> > NEVER
> > comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
> > inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
> > straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of
> the
> > pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
> > other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
> > actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
> > practical for top level timed events and sprints.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
> > dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
> > training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
> > against it but I think it should be avoided.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
> > strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to
> > be
> > stiffer than road shoes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Murray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of john
> > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> > To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> > A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
> >
> > Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
> > sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
> > versus clipless with them.
> >
> > However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
> > probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without
> having
> > to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
> > that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals
> > and
> > thus same shoes as on their road bike.
> >
> > If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
> > pedals
> > then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more
> > free
> > rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
> > were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
> > now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so
> > never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined
> and
> > small pedal to shoe interface.
> >
> > If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
> > there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
> > preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But
> > even
> > then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
> > knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened,
> knee
> > injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to
> do
> > through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and
> clip
> > pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for
> sure
> > would have issues...
> >
> > If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
> > it
> > is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing
> is
> > more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness
> is
> > not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
> >
> > 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
> > grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes
> into
> > the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could
> > maybe
> > even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a
> fibrous
> > insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
> >
> > 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> > platform
> > pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin
> plate
> > pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your
> > foot
> > and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
> >
> > Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
> > further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping
> the
> > Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
> > races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging
> > into
> > your foot.
> >
> > Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
> > collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are
> still
> > purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
> > Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole
> Look
> > Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
> > worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable
> shoes
> > for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
> > there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped.
> So
> > not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
> >
> >
> >
> > My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> >
> > I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> > a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> > the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> > tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> > weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> > wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> > matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> > built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
> >
> > Robert Synak
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > john m schmidt, pe
> > portland oregon
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/d18564d6/attachment.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 27
> > Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:42:28 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: steve garcia
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Message-ID: <496182.40427.qm@web56807.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay listing
> > said they were NJS though.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Mike Murray
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >
> >
> > That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
> >
> > http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> > http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
> >
> > Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
> > getting them off riders who are on the deck.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Steve Brown
> > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> > To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >
> >
> > MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
> > You have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as
> > Donna but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to
> > get.
> >
> >
> > On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
> >
> >
> > I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
> pedals
> > (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
> > straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I
> > make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight,
> I'm
> > good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my
> > life depended on it...oh wait, it does.
> > Donna Smith
> >
> >
> > So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
> > using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you
> and
> > what has NOT worked ?
> >
> >
> > JD
> >
> >
> > On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> > I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
> >
> >
> > 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
> > NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused
> by
> > inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
> > straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of
> the
> > pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
> > other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
> > actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
> > practical for top level timed events and sprints.
> >
> >
> > 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
> > dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
> >
> >
> > 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
> > training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
> > against it but I think it should be avoided.
> >
> >
> > 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
> > strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to
> > be stiffer than road shoes.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Murray
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of john
> > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> > To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > Robert,
> >
> > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> > A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
> >
> > Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
> > sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
> > versus clipless with them.
> >
> > However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
> > probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without
> having
> > to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
> > that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals
> > and thus same shoes as on their road bike.
> >
> > If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
> > pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer
> > more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have
> > ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type
> pedals,
> > LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large
> > angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is
> > undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.
> >
> > If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
> > there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
> > preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But
> > even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably
> > saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups
> > stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation
> you
> > foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first
> started
> > on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go
> back
> > now, i for sure would have issues...
> >
> > If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
> > it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track
> racing
> > is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe
> stiffness
> > is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
> >
> > 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
> > grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes
> into
> > the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could
> > maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a
> > fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly
> stiff.
> > .
> >
> > 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> > platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a
> > thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the
> ball
> > of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
> >
> > Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
> > further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping
> the
> > Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
> > races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging
> > into your foot.
> >
> > Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
> > collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are
> still
> > purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
> > Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole
> Look
> > Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
> > worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable
> shoes
> > for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
> > there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped.
> So
> > not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
> >
> >
> >
> > My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> > I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> > a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> > the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> > tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> > weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> > wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> > matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> > built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
> >
> > Robert Synak
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> > john m schmidt, pe
> > portland oregon
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and
> > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/c6d6cb8c/attachment.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 28
> > Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:47:10 +0000
> > From: johnfforbes@comcast.net
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > To: steve garcia , obra@list.obra.org
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> 041520080147.3126.4804091E00049BB800000C3622147564029C0A0D9D01000002080106@comcast.net
> >
> >
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Style points, Steve, style points. Now just don't wear any other kind of
> > thong...
> >
> > --
> > John Forbes
> > 3641 SW 52nd Place,
> > Portland, OR 97221
> > 503-422-1239
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: steve garcia
> >> So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay listing
> >> said they
> >> were NJS though.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: Mike Murray
> >> To: obra@list.obra.org
> >> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >>
> >>
> >> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
> >>
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> >> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
> >>
> >> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
> >> getting
> >> them off riders who are on the deck.
> >>
> >> Mike Murray
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of Steve Brown
> >> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> >> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> >> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >>
> >>
> >> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
> >> You
> >> have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as
> >> Donna but
> >> prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
> >> pedals
> >> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
> >> straps,
> >> scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I make
> >> sure that
> >> I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go.
> >> I
> >> wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life depended
> on
> >> it...oh wait, it does.
> >> Donna Smith
> >>
> >>
> >> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
> >> using for
> >> a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what
> has
> >> NOT
> >> worked ?
> >>
> >>
> >> JD
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> >> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
> >>
> >>
> >> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
> >> NEVER
> >> comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
> >> inadvertent
> >> detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I
> >> have
> >> never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to
> >> release in a
> >> fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in
> mechanism
> >> AND
> >> straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to
> the
> >> pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed
> events
> >> and
> >> sprints.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
> >> dabbed.
> >> They should be avoided at the track.
> >>
> >>
> >> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
> >> training
> >> classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it
> >> but I
> >> think it should be avoided.
> >>
> >>
> >> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
> >> strength a
> >> softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be
> stiffer
> >> than
> >> road shoes.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Murray
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> >> Behalf
> >> Of john
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> >> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> >> Robert,
> >>
> >> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> >> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
> >>
> >> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
> >> sprinters
> >> are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus
> >> clipless
> >> with them.
> >>
> >> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
> >> probably
> >> preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to
> >> reach down
> >> and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race
> >> omnium
> >> events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same
> >> shoes as on
> >> their road bike.
> >>
> >> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
> >> pedals
> >> then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more
> >> free
> >> rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever
> used
> >> were
> >> TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
> >> now..),
> >> large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never
> >> accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and
> >> small
> >> pedal to shoe interface.
> >>
> >> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
> >> there is
> >> no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
> >> preferably
> >> professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then,
> >> In the
> >> old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if
> i
> >> recall
> >> correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries
> >> increased.
> >> Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a
> rotation.
> >> I had
> >> no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated
> slot
> >> shoe.
> >> But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...
> >>
> >> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip
> Pedals,
> >> it is
> >> rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
> >> more
> >> about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is
> not
> >> as
> >> critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
> >>
> >> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
> >> grinding
> >> wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the
> clip
> >> pedal.
> >> Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a
> >> stiff
> >> insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work
> >> in some
> >> fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
> >>
> >> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> >> platform
> >> pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin
> plate
> >> pedal
> >> as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot
> and
> >> you
> >> want a nice flat surface to do this on..
> >>
> >> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
> >> further
> >> and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
> >> Alpenrose
> >> banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races
> are
> >> short ,
> >> the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.
> >>
> >> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
> >> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are
> still
> >> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central
> ..
> >> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole
> Look
> >> Style.
> >> Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn.
> I
> >> use to
> >> use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for
> commuting)
> >> But
> >> seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then
> >> once they
> >> didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of
> >> Steel on
> >> Steel pedal to cleat.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> >> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> >> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> >> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> >> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> >> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> >> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> >> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> >> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
> >>
> >> Robert Synak
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> john m schmidt, pe
> >> portland oregon
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> >> ____
> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> >> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An embedded message was scrubbed...
> > From: steve garcia
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> > Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:42:59 +0000
> > Size: 22317
> > Url:
> >
> http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/22b60811/attachment.eml
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > End of OBRA Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17
> > ************************************
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Note NEW email address is darellp@easystreet.net -- no longer .com

David Auker

If you are inclined to use the "old school" toe clips, straps and
cleats, here's an idea I used back in the pre-clipless day for security
against accidental release: I would cut a couple of one-inch sections
of leather toe strap and glue (Barge Cement) them onto the outside of
the shoe, over the little toe area, just in front of where the real toe
strap would lie. This creates a nice bump/stop for the strap to lie up
against. Leading edge, for when putting foot into pedal/toe clip would
be beveled, so resistance against strap only for release, not
insertion. So, when strapped in, cinched down, there was no way the
shoe could exit the pedal/toe clip without first reaching down and
flicking the toe strap buckle open. (This assumes the cleat is in great
shape, nice and deep slot.)

Binda Extra, no plastic straps, please!

David

David Oliphant

I use Look cleats (black) and my standard road shoes on the track. There are
only a few match sprinters in Oregon that use the toe straps that I've
seen...and I would not recommend for the track generalist. Its my belief
that if you're doing mass start events, and you've been professionally
fitted on your bike/cleat fit with no float pedals that your fine on the
track. I've never clicked out in training or racing in 10++ (ouch) years.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Ford"
To:
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

> What about the retro system, with those cleats you can get (Yoshida makes
> them, as does MKS) that attach to Look-compatible shoes, to allow you to
> "clip" into standard road or track "cage" pedals, like older Campy or MKS
> pedals? I don't know how secure that attachment is, or how you unclip
> (twist
> to the side?), but the advantage would be that it's easily supplemented
> with
> single or double straps, as that's what those pedals are intended for.
>
> If it works, it would be very cost-effective, because those cleats are
> only
> $20/30, they work with normal road shoes, and cage pedals can be very
> cheap.
> Or is that what Donna was talking about below, with her "old-school
> Dura-Ace
> sprint pedals with straps"?
>
> Mike
>
>> Message: 26
>> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:31:47 -0700
>> From: "Mike Murray"
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>> To:
>> Message-ID: <000001c89e98$78f3f290$9801a8c0@MikeLT>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
>> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
>>
>> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
>> getting them off riders who are on the deck.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve Brown
>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
>> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>
>>
>> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
>> You
>> have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as
>> Donna
>> but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
>>
>> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
>> pedals
>> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
>> straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I
>> make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight,
>> I'm
>> good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my
>> life
>> depended on it...oh wait, it does.
>>
>> Donna Smith
>>
>>
>> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
>> using
>> for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what
>> has NOT worked ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> JD
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
>>
>> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
>> NEVER
>> comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
>> inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
>> straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of
>> the
>> pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
>> other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
>> actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
>> practical for top level timed events and sprints.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
>> dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
>> training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
>> against it but I think it should be avoided.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
>> strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to
>> be
>> stiffer than road shoes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of john
>> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
>> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
>> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>>
>> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
>> sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
>> versus clipless with them.
>>
>> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
>> probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without
>> having
>> to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
>> that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals
>> and
>> thus same shoes as on their road bike.
>>
>> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
>> pedals
>> then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more
>> free
>> rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
>> were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
>> now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so
>> never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined
>> and
>> small pedal to shoe interface.
>>
>> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
>> there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
>> preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But
>> even
>> then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
>> knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened,
>> knee
>> injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to
>> do
>> through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
>> pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for
>> sure
>> would have issues...
>>
>> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
>> it
>> is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
>> more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness
>> is
>> not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>>
>> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
>> grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
>> the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could
>> maybe
>> even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a
>> fibrous
>> insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>>
>> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
>> platform
>> pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate
>> pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your
>> foot
>> and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>>
>> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
>> further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
>> Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
>> races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging
>> into
>> your foot.
>>
>> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
>> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
>> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
>> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
>> Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
>> worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
>> for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
>> there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped.
>> So
>> not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
>>
>>
>>
>> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
>>
>> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
>> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
>> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
>> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
>> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
>> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
>> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
>> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>>
>> Robert Synak
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> john m schmidt, pe
>> portland oregon
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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>> URL:
>> http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/d18564d6/attachment.htm
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 27
>> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:42:28 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: steve garcia
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Message-ID: <496182.40427.qm@web56807.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay listing
>> said they were NJS though.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Mike Murray
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>
>>
>> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
>> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
>>
>> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
>> getting them off riders who are on the deck.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Steve Brown
>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
>> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>
>>
>> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
>> You have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as
>> Donna but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to
>> get.
>>
>>
>> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
>> pedals
>> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
>> straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I
>> make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight,
>> I'm
>> good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my
>> life depended on it...oh wait, it does.
>> Donna Smith
>>
>>
>> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
>> using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you
>> and
>> what has NOT worked ?
>>
>>
>> JD
>>
>>
>> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
>> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>>
>>
>> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
>> NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
>> inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
>> straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of
>> the
>> pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
>> other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
>> actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
>> practical for top level timed events and sprints.
>>
>>
>> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
>> dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>>
>>
>> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
>> training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
>> against it but I think it should be avoided.
>>
>>
>> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
>> strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to
>> be stiffer than road shoes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of john
>> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
>> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>> Robert,
>>
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
>> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>>
>> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
>> sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
>> versus clipless with them.
>>
>> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
>> probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without
>> having
>> to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
>> that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals
>> and thus same shoes as on their road bike.
>>
>> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
>> pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer
>> more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have
>> ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals,
>> LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large
>> angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is
>> undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.
>>
>> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
>> there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
>> preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But
>> even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably
>> saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups
>> stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you
>> foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first
>> started
>> on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go
>> back
>> now, i for sure would have issues...
>>
>> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
>> it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing
>> is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe
>> stiffness
>> is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>>
>> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
>> grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
>> the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could
>> maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a
>> fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff.
>> .
>>
>> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
>> platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a
>> thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball
>> of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>>
>> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
>> further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
>> Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
>> races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging
>> into your foot.
>>
>> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
>> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
>> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
>> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
>> Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
>> worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
>> for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
>> there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped.
>> So
>> not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
>>
>>
>>
>> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
>> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
>> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
>> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
>> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
>> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
>> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
>> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
>> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>>
>> Robert Synak
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> john m schmidt, pe
>> portland oregon
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
>> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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>> URL:
>> http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/c6d6cb8c/attachment.htm
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 28
>> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:47:10 +0000
>> From: johnfforbes@comcast.net
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>> To: steve garcia , obra@list.obra.org
>> Message-ID:
>> <041520080147.3126.4804091E00049BB800000C3622147564029C0A0D9D01000002080106@comcast.net>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Style points, Steve, style points. Now just don't wear any other kind of
>> thong...
>>
>> --
>> John Forbes
>> 3641 SW 52nd Place,
>> Portland, OR 97221
>> 503-422-1239
>>
>> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>> From: steve garcia
>>> So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay listing
>>> said they
>>> were NJS though.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Mike Murray
>>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>>
>>>
>>> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
>>>
>>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
>>> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
>>>
>>> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
>>> getting
>>> them off riders who are on the deck.
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Steve Brown
>>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
>>> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
>>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>>
>>>
>>> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
>>> You
>>> have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as
>>> Donna but
>>> prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
>>> pedals
>>> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
>>> straps,
>>> scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I make
>>> sure that
>>> I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go.
>>> I
>>> wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life depended
>>> on
>>> it...oh wait, it does.
>>> Donna Smith
>>>
>>>
>>> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
>>> using for
>>> a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what
>>> has
>>> NOT
>>> worked ?
>>>
>>>
>>> JD
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
>>> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
>>> NEVER
>>> comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
>>> inadvertent
>>> detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I
>>> have
>>> never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to
>>> release in a
>>> fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in
>>> mechanism
>>> AND
>>> straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to
>>> the
>>> pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed
>>> events
>>> and
>>> sprints.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
>>> dabbed.
>>> They should be avoided at the track.
>>>
>>>
>>> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
>>> training
>>> classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it
>>> but I
>>> think it should be avoided.
>>>
>>>
>>> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
>>> strength a
>>> softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer
>>> than
>>> road shoes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of john
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
>>> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>> Robert,
>>>
>>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
>>> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>>>
>>> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
>>> sprinters
>>> are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus
>>> clipless
>>> with them.
>>>
>>> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
>>> probably
>>> preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to
>>> reach down
>>> and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race
>>> omnium
>>> events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same
>>> shoes as on
>>> their road bike.
>>>
>>> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
>>> pedals
>>> then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more
>>> free
>>> rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
>>> were
>>> TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
>>> now..),
>>> large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never
>>> accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and
>>> small
>>> pedal to shoe interface.
>>>
>>> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
>>> there is
>>> no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
>>> preferably
>>> professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then,
>>> In the
>>> old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i
>>> recall
>>> correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries
>>> increased.
>>> Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a
>>> rotation.
>>> I had
>>> no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot
>>> shoe.
>>> But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...
>>>
>>> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
>>> it is
>>> rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
>>> more
>>> about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is
>>> not
>>> as
>>> critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>>>
>>> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
>>> grinding
>>> wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the
>>> clip
>>> pedal.
>>> Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a
>>> stiff
>>> insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work
>>> in some
>>> fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>>>
>>> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
>>> platform
>>> pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin
>>> plate
>>> pedal
>>> as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot
>>> and
>>> you
>>> want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>>>
>>> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
>>> further
>>> and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
>>> Alpenrose
>>> banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are
>>> short ,
>>> the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.
>>>
>>> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
>>> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are
>>> still
>>> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
>>> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole
>>> Look
>>> Style.
>>> Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn.
>>> I
>>> use to
>>> use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting)
>>> But
>>> seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then
>>> once they
>>> didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of
>>> Steel on
>>> Steel pedal to cleat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
>>> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
>>> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
>>> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
>>> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
>>> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
>>> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
>>> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
>>> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>>>
>>> Robert Synak
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> john m schmidt, pe
>>> portland oregon
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________________________________________
>>> ____
>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
>> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>>
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An embedded message was scrubbed...
>> From: steve garcia
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:42:59 +0000
>> Size: 22317
>> Url:
>> http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/22b60811/attachment.eml
>>
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>>
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>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> End of OBRA Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17
>> ************************************
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john

To keep beating a nearly dead horse, but i do have actual experience with some various pedals besides looking at them. and i sit and think about them, tinker on them, and i don't feel like doing taxes, and what is more fun then drinking beer and typing... yep i have a couple more points i would like to make (groan now).

obviously can't debate if you don't want the shoe to come off the pedals , get a match sprinter setup, pedals, etc... or those 5/8 bolts, nothing like 10-12 tons of tensile capacity, Just if you crash, make sure both feet will stay in, not one in, one out. but it sounds like this is a not an issue.

On the track to prevent accidental release, my,
1st choice would be to run with large-rotation-before-unclip pedal.
2nd would be fixed pedal no rotation.
3rd and only if i had too would be a 4 deg or so type pedal. With just enough float the foot goes up against the "stop" with some inertia and possibly breaks through. least this is my hypothesis based on my experience. Yes i also use to crank up the release tension.
And something about a thong in earlier post gives months worth of prevention on and off track.

If your foot is going wild enough to come out of a large float type pedal, you may have other issues and maybe hidden dance talent. or well maybe the cleat needs adjusting.

If you or a buddy are releasing out of Crank Brothers pedals, your cleat is not adjusted properly, that is, at neutral position, you are already close to un clipping. Rotate the cleat on your shoe. (this advice is also my rationalization for writing yet another post ... maybe will save someone from a faceplant at cross time.. )

So I used these pedals all last year with no issues**. Obviously others use them too (and yeah if I hadn't already opened my big mouth, i would keep quiet too). Yes initially i was very skeptical until i went around the block purposely trying to get an accidental unclip, and it was nigh impossible. The only way is if your foot really goes crazy sideways.

By the way, the way they are designed, the harder you pull on these pedals the tighter they grip the cleat ( most likely a design-by-accident). As long as your foot doesn't go crazy sideways, these simply can't accidentally pull off. They just can't. (unless something breaks...)

Other pedals are questionable under high force (ok in most cases unrealistic high force). A little wear from spring bar on metal, a little bit of flex in the plastic, and little wedge action and maybe pop out you come.

Now, I don't know if I can recommend crank brothers for the track, after all this discussion and trepidation, i am worried (not that i will be racing much this year). but plus a spring broke** on me once. granted, i think they fixed this metal fatigue / stress concentration issue, But then you have to hope that if person took your recommendation, that the cleat got installed properly or that they don't have some crazy heel flip.

So got tired of tinkering on the eggbeaters so been trying some ATAC for a couple months now for commuting . First almost all reviews on these pedals are really high. they are super secure. The cleat to bars are similar to how the Eggbeaters work. You simply can't pull out unless your foot goes crazy sideways. And these have a little better "stop" before release. They are solid, (least the heavy ones I have) there's no way they are going to break, as sometimes one wonders with eggbeaters. And they have real bearings, not milk-jug plastic. But similar to eggbeater, I don't know if i like the push down interface.. pedals indent into the shoe, so foot will kind of rock, not be even... so once again i am thinking of trying something else... tinkering with metal plates and the like gets old pretty quick.

But i can almost guarantee you will never pull out of these. If you think otherwise its because you haven't tried them. Your shoe will break first.

Also while you are at it, check cleat bolts too. You must have at least three good turns but i aim for at least four. A little bit of bolt into your insole is typically not a problem and better then possible thread strip even if you think making miniature slinkys is fun. By the way Parkrose hardware has the best fastener selection in the area. well eastside.

and i agree with Sam's advice.
see you all saturday i will have the hairy legs and beer gut.

Samuel Nicoletti wrote: Sorry, I meant they had a higher tension than the lower keo classics. I'd sure like a pair of the carbons also, but sadly they're a little out of reach of my budget. That seems to be one aspect many people forget when giving the equipment advice, the money. I'm sure there are plenty of sweet pedal options for the big budget trackie (like those killer MKS jobs), but for the rest of us, and especially those just trying to break into the sport, a $250 pedal set specific to the track isn't a great option. I mostly just want to get across the point that you can be safe and successful on the track with some regular road set-ups, and it might let you have just one pair of shoes for both the road and the track (or stop you from having to swap cleats all the time). So, to anybody who is reading this that still wants advice, I'd say: just get what you can afford, and what you personally feel comfortable sprinting hard in, and don't
worry about it too much. If it's the wrong set-up for you, it'll become obvious pretty quickly, and you can start swapping stuff around then.

Sam

Also, you're going to need to save money on your pedals/shoes so you can buy that rear disc, because it will just be embarrassing rolling out on May 3rd without one ;)


On Mon Apr 14 21:02 , zak sent:




actually, the keo sprint has a lower spring tension than the other models. i rode the sprints last season (well half season) but i went a level up to the "carbon" model this year for track and put the "sprints" on my road bike. (seems kind of backwards, eh?.) the sprints go up to 15 Nm and the carbon and above models all go to 18 Nm and i have both pairs cranked all the way. i have yet to pull out of either, but im not exactly a watt monster like kevin mansker, and ill take the extra tension. also i feel more likely the pull out when using cleats with float for some reason.

zak
________________________________
> From: sam@kestrelcs.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:57:12 -0400
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
>
> Look Keos. I use the "sprint" model because it has a higher max spring tension, and I tighten them as high as they go. It makes them hard to get into, but it also makes it hard to get out of, which inspires confidence, and confidence in your equipment is paramount. I concentrate mostly on sprint events, and I've never felt like I might pull out, even in standing starts. However, I HAVE seen people pull out on speedplays and spd's, for what its worth (not resulting in accidents, thankfully). I've also heard horror stories about crank bros setups releasing in a sprint. If the day comes that I think I might be strong enough to worry about my Looks, I know I can get clever with some hardware and zip ties and add a strap to them. I also use the black keo cleat for no float. I can't stand having float on the track, although I know plenty of people that use a +/- 4 degree cleat and don't find it to be a problem. Although I don't see anything wrong with using a
traditional
slotted cleat and a pedal with toe clips, I also don't see any benefits (unless you've already got that setup on your road bike and you'd like to share shoes between road and track). Road pedals, tightened down, work just fine, and although I'm new to the Alpenrose, I can tell you that's the sort of setup almost everybody at the 7-11 Velodrome in CO Springs was on, even the big Olympic Training Center sprinters (some with a strap, some without). I hope that was helpful, and I can't wait to see everybody on May 3rd!
>
> Sam
>
>
>
> On Mon Apr 14 9:17 , "NW Cyclist" sent:
>
>
> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?
>
> JD
>
>
> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [obra-bounces@list.obra.org','','','')">obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

Michael Ford

What about the retro system, with those cleats you can get (Yoshida makes
them, as does MKS) that attach to Look-compatible shoes, to allow you to
"clip" into standard road or track "cage" pedals, like older Campy or MKS
pedals? I don't know how secure that attachment is, or how you unclip (twist
to the side?), but the advantage would be that it's easily supplemented with
single or double straps, as that's what those pedals are intended for.

If it works, it would be very cost-effective, because those cleats are only
$20/30, they work with normal road shoes, and cage pedals can be very cheap.
Or is that what Donna was talking about below, with her "old-school Dura-Ace
sprint pedals with straps"?

Mike

> Message: 26
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:31:47 -0700
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> To:
> Message-ID: <000001c89e98$78f3f290$9801a8c0@MikeLT>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
>
> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
> getting them off riders who are on the deck.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve Brown
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
>
> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
> You
> have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as Donna
> but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
>
> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
>
>
> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless pedals
> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
> straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I
> make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm
> good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my
> life
> depended on it...oh wait, it does.
>
> Donna Smith
>
>
> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
> using
> for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what
> has NOT worked ?
>
>
>
>
> JD
>
>
>
> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
>
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
>
>
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
> NEVER
> comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
> inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
> straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
> pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
> other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
> actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
> practical for top level timed events and sprints.
>
>
>
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
> dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>
>
>
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
> training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
> against it but I think it should be avoided.
>
>
>
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
> strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to
> be
> stiffer than road shoes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of john
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
> sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
> versus clipless with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
> probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having
> to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
> that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals
> and
> thus same shoes as on their road bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
> pedals
> then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more
> free
> rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
> were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
> now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so
> never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and
> small pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
> there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
> preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But
> even
> then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
> knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee
> injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do
> through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
> pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure
> would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
> it
> is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
> more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is
> not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
> grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
> the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could
> maybe
> even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous
> insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> platform
> pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate
> pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your
> foot
> and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
> further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
> Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
> races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging
> into
> your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
> Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
> worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
> for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
> there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So
> not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
>
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://list.obra.org/posts/obra/attachments/20080414/d18564d6/attachment.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:42:28 -0700 (PDT)
> From: steve garcia
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID: <496182.40427.qm@web56807.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay listing
> said they were NJS though.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mike Murray
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
>
> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
>
> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
> getting them off riders who are on the deck.
>
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve Brown
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
>
> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
> You have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as
> Donna but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to
> get.
>
>
> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
>
>
> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless pedals
> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
> straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I
> make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm
> good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my
> life depended on it...oh wait, it does.
> Donna Smith
>
>
> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
> using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and
> what has NOT worked ?
>
>
> JD
>
>
> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
> NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
> inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
> straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
> pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
> other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
> actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
> practical for top level timed events and sprints.
>
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
> dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
> training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
> against it but I think it should be avoided.
>
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
> strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to
> be stiffer than road shoes.
>
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of john
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
> sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
> versus clipless with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
> probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having
> to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
> that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals
> and thus same shoes as on their road bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
> pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer
> more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have
> ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals,
> LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large
> angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is
> undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
> there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
> preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But
> even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably
> saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups
> stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you
> foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started
> on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back
> now, i for sure would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
> it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing
> is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness
> is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
> grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
> the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could
> maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a
> fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff.
> .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a
> thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball
> of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
> further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
> Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
> races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging
> into your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
> Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
> worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
> for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
> there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So
> not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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> Message: 28
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:47:10 +0000
> From: johnfforbes@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> To: steve garcia , obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID:
> <041520080147.3126.4804091E00049BB800000C3622147564029C0A0D9D01000002080106@comcast.net>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Style points, Steve, style points. Now just don't wear any other kind of
> thong...
>
> --
> John Forbes
> 3641 SW 52nd Place,
> Portland, OR 97221
> 503-422-1239
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: steve garcia
>> So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay listing
>> said they
>> were NJS though.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Mike Murray
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>
>>
>> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
>>
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
>> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
>>
>> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
>> getting
>> them off riders who are on the deck.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Steve Brown
>> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
>> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>>
>>
>> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in.
>> You
>> have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as
>> Donna but
>> prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
>>
>>
>> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
>>
>>
>> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
>> pedals
>> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
>> straps,
>> scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I make
>> sure that
>> I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go.
>> I
>> wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life depended on
>> it...oh wait, it does.
>> Donna Smith
>>
>>
>> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you
>> using for
>> a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has
>> NOT
>> worked ?
>>
>>
>> JD
>>
>>
>> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
>> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>>
>>
>> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
>> NEVER
>> comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
>> inadvertent
>> detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I
>> have
>> never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to
>> release in a
>> fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism
>> AND
>> straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the
>> pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events
>> and
>> sprints.
>>
>>
>> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
>> dabbed.
>> They should be avoided at the track.
>>
>>
>> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
>> training
>> classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it
>> but I
>> think it should be avoided.
>>
>>
>> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
>> strength a
>> softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer
>> than
>> road shoes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of john
>> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
>> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>> Robert,
>>
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
>> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>>
>> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
>> sprinters
>> are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus
>> clipless
>> with them.
>>
>> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
>> probably
>> preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to
>> reach down
>> and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race
>> omnium
>> events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same
>> shoes as on
>> their road bike.
>>
>> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
>> pedals
>> then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more
>> free
>> rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
>> were
>> TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
>> now..),
>> large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never
>> accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and
>> small
>> pedal to shoe interface.
>>
>> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
>> there is
>> no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
>> preferably
>> professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then,
>> In the
>> old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i
>> recall
>> correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries
>> increased.
>> Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation.
>> I had
>> no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot
>> shoe.
>> But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...
>>
>> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
>> it is
>> rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
>> more
>> about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not
>> as
>> critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>>
>> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
>> grinding
>> wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip
>> pedal.
>> Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a
>> stiff
>> insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work
>> in some
>> fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>>
>> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
>> platform
>> pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate
>> pedal
>> as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and
>> you
>> want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>>
>> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
>> further
>> and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
>> Alpenrose
>> banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are
>> short ,
>> the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.
>>
>> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
>> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
>> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
>> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
>> Style.
>> Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I
>> use to
>> use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting)
>> But
>> seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then
>> once they
>> didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of
>> Steel on
>> Steel pedal to cleat.
>>
>>
>>
>> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
>> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
>> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
>> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
>> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
>> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
>> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
>> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
>> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>>
>> Robert Synak
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> john m schmidt, pe
>> portland oregon
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________________________
>> ____
>> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
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> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:42:59 +0000
> Size: 22317
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>
>
> End of OBRA Digest, Vol 28, Issue 17
> ************************************
>

Michael Ford

What about th

Subject: Re: Shoes for clips at Alpenrose
Date: 04/14/2008 07:28 PM
From: Mike Murray
Sprinters generally have an assistant or male cheerleader of some sort
that
go with them. I am not going to even start to speculate into the
psychological aspects of this sort of thing. Unlocking the rider from
his
pedals is surely the least task assigned to them.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
On
Behalf Of Michael Ford
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 19:00 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for clips at Alpenrose

Interesting recommendation, Mike, but the Yellow Jersey webpage says
that in
order to exit the pedal, "The rider's assistant locks the cleat in the
pedal
and releases it after the event, because the release mechanism is
under the
rider's foot..."

I'm concerned because my "rider's assistant" tends to be surly and
incompetent, and I'd just as soon clip out all by myself. Is that at
all
possible with these pedals, or do I truly need to have a posse
accompany me
to the track to lift me off my bike after every race?

Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm

Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
getting them off riders who are on the deck.

Samuel Nicoletti

Sorry, I meant they had a higher tension than the lower keo classics.  I'd sure like a pair of the carbons also, but sadly they're a little out of reach of my budget.  That seems to be one aspect many people forget when giving the equipment advice, the money.  I'm sure there are plenty of sweet pedal options for the big budget trackie (like those killer MKS jobs), but for the rest of us, and especially those just trying to break into the sport, a $250 pedal set specific to the track isn't a great option.  I mostly just want to get across the point that you can be safe and successful on the track with some regular road set-ups, and it might let you have just one pair of shoes for both the road and the track (or stop you from having to swap cleats all the time).  So, to anybody who is reading this that still wants advice, I'd say:  just get what you can afford, and what you personally feel comfortable sprinting hard in, and don't worry about it too much.  If it's the wrong set-up for you, it'll become obvious pretty quickly, and you can start swapping stuff around then. 



Sam



Also, you're going to need to save money on your pedals/shoes so you can buy that rear disc, because it will just be embarrassing rolling out on May 3rd without one ;)





On Mon Apr 14 21:02 , zak sent:

actually, the keo sprint has a lower spring tension than the other models. i rode the sprints last season (well half season) but i went a level up to the "carbon" model this year for track and put the "sprints" on my road bike. (seems kind of backwards, eh?.) the sprints go up to 15 Nm and the carbon and above models all go to 18 Nm and i have both pairs cranked all the way. i have yet to pull out of either, but im not exactly a watt monster like kevin mansker, and ill take the extra tension. also i feel more likely the pull out when using cleats with float for some reason.

zak

________________________________

> From: sam@kestrelcs.com

> To: obra@list.obra.org

> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:57:12 -0400

> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

>

>

> Look Keos. I use the "sprint" model because it has a higher max spring tension, and I tighten them as high as they go. It makes them hard to get into, but it also makes it hard to get out of, which inspires confidence, and confidence in your equipment is paramount. I concentrate mostly on sprint events, and I've never felt like I might pull out, even in standing starts. However, I HAVE seen people pull out on speedplays and spd's, for what its worth (not resulting in accidents, thankfully). I've also heard horror stories about crank bros setups releasing in a sprint. If the day comes that I think I might be strong enough to worry about my Looks, I know I can get clever with some hardware and zip ties and add a strap to them. I also use the black keo cleat for no float. I can't stand having float on the track, although I know plenty of people that use a +/- 4 degree cleat and don't find it to be a problem. Although I don't see anything wrong with using a traditional

slotted cleat and a pedal with toe clips, I also don't see any benefits (unless you've already got that setup on your road bike and you'd like to share shoes between road and track). Road pedals, tightened down, work just fine, and although I'm new to the Alpenrose, I can tell you that's the sort of setup almost everybody at the 7-11 Velodrome in CO Springs was on, even the big Olympic Training Center sprinters (some with a strap, some without). I hope that was helpful, and I can't wait to see everybody on May 3rd!

>

> Sam

>

>

>

> On Mon Apr 14 9:17 , "NW Cyclist" sent:

>

>

> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?

>

> JD

>

>

> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:

> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

>

> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.

>

> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

>

> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

>

> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.

>

>

>

> Mike Murray

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [obra-bounces@list.obra.org','','','')">obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john

> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM

> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'

> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

>

> Robert,

>

> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html

> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

>

> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.

>

> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike.

>

> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.

>

> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...

>

> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

>

> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

>

> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

>

> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.

>

> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..

> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

>

>

>

> My Stretchy Pants wrote:

> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have

> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in

> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I

> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few

> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the

> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious

> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose

> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

>

> Robert Synak

> _______________________________________________

> OBRA mailing list

> obra@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

>

>

>

> john m schmidt, pe

> portland oregon

>

> _______________________________________________

> OBRA mailing list

> obra@list.obra.org

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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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zak

actually, the keo sprint has a lower spring tension than the other models. i rode the sprints last season (well half season) but i went a level up to the "carbon" model this year for track and put the "sprints" on my road bike. (seems kind of backwards, eh?.) the sprints go up to 15 Nm and the carbon and above models all go to 18 Nm and i have both pairs cranked all the way. i have yet to pull out of either, but im not exactly a watt monster like kevin mansker, and ill take the extra tension. also i feel more likely the pull out when using cleats with float for some reason.

zak
________________________________
> From: sam@kestrelcs.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:57:12 -0400
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
>
> Look Keos. I use the "sprint" model because it has a higher max spring tension, and I tighten them as high as they go. It makes them hard to get into, but it also makes it hard to get out of, which inspires confidence, and confidence in your equipment is paramount. I concentrate mostly on sprint events, and I've never felt like I might pull out, even in standing starts. However, I HAVE seen people pull out on speedplays and spd's, for what its worth (not resulting in accidents, thankfully). I've also heard horror stories about crank bros setups releasing in a sprint. If the day comes that I think I might be strong enough to worry about my Looks, I know I can get clever with some hardware and zip ties and add a strap to them. I also use the black keo cleat for no float. I can't stand having float on the track, although I know plenty of people that use a +/- 4 degree cleat and don't find it to be a problem. Although I don't see anything wrong with using a traditional slotted cleat and a pedal with toe clips, I also don't see any benefits (unless you've already got that setup on your road bike and you'd like to share shoes between road and track). Road pedals, tightened down, work just fine, and although I'm new to the Alpenrose, I can tell you that's the sort of setup almost everybody at the 7-11 Velodrome in CO Springs was on, even the big Olympic Training Center sprinters (some with a strap, some without). I hope that was helpful, and I can't wait to see everybody on May 3rd!
>
> Sam
>
>
>
> On Mon Apr 14 9:17 , "NW Cyclist" sent:
>
>
> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?
>
> JD
>
>
> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Michael O'Hair

I designed a track pedal/cleat/shoe system that I can guarantee will never pull out accidentally.

Basically, it's a 5/8" diameter bolt that goes through a block that is permanently attached to the shoe with several bolts. A nut/washer is then torqued on (135 to 140 foot-pounds) and you are ready to race.

The prototypes were a bit heavy ( 2.34 pounds each ) but they will not unclip by accident. And what's a couple of pounds to a trackie?

By the way, if you have to ask what they cost, you can't afford them.

G Magnus

Sounds like everyone needs a track monkey, forget the trunk monkey get a track monkey, hold you, help un-clip you, carry your bike to and fro...feed you banana's (if they don't eat em all).....oh yeah and I run the SPD-r's on the track...tighten up so much that most of the time you gotta wack the side of your heel to un-clip love em.

~Gregg

Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:31:54 -0700From: sehsrugby@yahoo.comTo: obra@list.obra.orgSubject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at AlpenroseThose are what I'm running now days. Most secure feel I've ever had to a bike. I was using SPD-Rs, and Looks before that. The SPDs had too small of a platform for me, but has been proven by most world class sprinters, they will hold you in. I wouldnt recommend Looks to anyone in a sprint. I had more pull outs with those than I care to remember. Granted, it was the low end Keo style, but still.Mike Murray wrote:

That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm

Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty getting them off riders who are on the deck.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Steve BrownSent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PMTo: bikingmom@centurytel.netCc: obra@list.obra.orgSubject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at AlpenroseMKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in. You have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as Donna but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.

On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:

I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless pedals (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life depended on it...oh wait, it does.
Donna Smith

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:

I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of johnSent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PMTo: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
Robert,http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.htmlA cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals. Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them. However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike. If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing. 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. . 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on.. Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot. Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central .. Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat. My Stretchy Pants wrote:
I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and havea set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick inthe clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? Itried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a fewweeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were thewrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religiousmatter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purposebuilt shoe experienced track racers use with clips?Robert Synak_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
john m schmidt, peportland oregon
_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Kevin Mansker

Those are what I'm running now days. Most secure feel I've ever had to a bike. I was using SPD-Rs, and Looks before that. The SPDs had too small of a platform for me, but has been proven by most world class sprinters, they will hold you in. I wouldnt recommend Looks to anyone in a sprint. I had more pull outs with those than I care to remember. Granted, it was the low end Keo style, but still.

Mike Murray wrote: That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm

Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty getting them off riders who are on the deck.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Steve Brown
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in. You have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as Donna but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:

I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless pedals (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life depended on it...oh wait, it does.
Donna Smith

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote:
I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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between 0000-00-00 and 9999-99-99

Mike Murray

Sprinters generally have an assistant or male cheerleader of some sort that
go with them. I am not going to even start to speculate into the
psychological aspects of this sort of thing. Unlocking the rider from his
pedals is surely the least task assigned to them.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Ford
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 19:00 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for clips at Alpenrose

Interesting recommendation, Mike, but the Yellow Jersey webpage says that in
order to exit the pedal, "The rider's assistant locks the cleat in the pedal
and releases it after the event, because the release mechanism is under the
rider's foot..."

I'm concerned because my "rider's assistant" tends to be surly and
incompetent, and I'd just as soon clip out all by myself. Is that at all
possible with these pedals, or do I truly need to have a posse accompany me
to the track to lift me off my bike after every race?

Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm

Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
getting them off riders who are on the deck.

Michael Ford

Interesting recommendation, Mike, but the Yellow Jersey webpage says that in order to exit the pedal, "The rider's assistant locks the cleat in the pedal and releases it after the event, because the release mechanism is under the rider's foot..."

I'm concerned because my "rider's assistant" tends to be surly and incompetent, and I'd just as soon clip out all by myself. Is that at all possible with these pedals, or do I truly need to have a posse accompany me to the track to lift me off my bike after every race?

Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm

Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty getting them off riders who are on the deck.

johnfforbes@comcast.net

Style points, Steve, style points. Now just don't wear any other kind of thong...

--
John Forbes
3641 SW 52nd Place,
Portland, OR 97221
503-422-1239

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: steve garcia
> So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay listing said they
> were NJS though.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mike Murray
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
>
> That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.
>
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm
>
> Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty getting
> them off riders who are on the deck.
>
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf
> Of Steve Brown
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
> To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
>
> MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in. You
> have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as Donna but
> prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.
>
>
> On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:
>
>
> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless pedals
> (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with straps,
> scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I make sure that
> I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go. I
> wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life depended on
> it...oh wait, it does.
> Donna Smith
>
>
> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for
> a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has NOT
> worked ?
>
>
> JD
>
>
> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER
> comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent
> detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have
> never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a
> fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND
> straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the
> pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and
> sprints.
>
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed.
> They should be avoided at the track.
>
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training
> classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I
> think it should be avoided.
>
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a
> softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than
> road shoes.
>
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf
> Of john
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters
> are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless
> with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably
> preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down
> and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium
> events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on
> their road bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals
> then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free
> rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were
> TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..),
> large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never
> accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small
> pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is
> no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably
> professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the
> old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall
> correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased.
> Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had
> no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe.
> But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is
> rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more
> about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as
> critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding
> wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal.
> Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff
> insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some
> fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform
> pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal
> as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you
> want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further
> and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose
> banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short ,
> the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style.
> Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to
> use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But
> seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they
> didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on
> Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

steve garcia

So, my Shimano SPD Thongs are a no-go for the track? The Ebay listing said they were NJS though.

Steve

----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 6:31:47 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm

Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty getting them off riders who are on the deck.

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Steve Brown
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in. You have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as Donna but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.

On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:

I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless pedals (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life depended on it...oh wait, it does.
Donna Smith

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote:
I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

Mike Murray

That is the MKS EXA Track Pedal.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/trkped.html
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mks_exa_pedal.htm

Definitely no inadvertent clip outs!! I have had a bit of difficulty
getting them off riders who are on the deck.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Brown
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 17:50 PM
To: bikingmom@centurytel.net
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you in. You
have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same system as Donna
but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats are easier to get.

On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:

I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless pedals
(Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint pedals with
straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the hammer). As long as I
make sure that I have the cleat system fully engaged and straps tight, I'm
good to go. I wouldn't switch back to a straight clipless system if my life
depended on it...oh wait, it does.

Donna Smith

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using
for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what
has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:

I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER
comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be
stiffer than road shoes.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having
to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and
thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals
then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free
rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so
never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and
small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even
then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee
injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do
through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure
would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it
is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is
not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe
even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous
insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform
pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate
pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot
and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into
your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So
not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote:

I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steve Brown

MKS Keirin Style Track Pedals with a strap. These babies lock you
in. You have to release the latch to get out. I also use the same
system as Donna but prefer these. They are way cool and the cleats
are easier to get.

On Apr 14, 2008, at 5:13 PM, bikingmom@centurytel.net wrote:

> I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
> pedals (Campy Daytona). I switched to "old school" durace sprint
> pedals with straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the
> hammer). As long as I make sure that I have the cleat system fully
> engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go. I wouldn't switch back
> to a straight clipless system if my life depended on it...oh wait,
> it does.
>
> Donna Smith
>
>
> So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are
> you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working
> for you and what has NOT worked ?
>
>
> JD
>
>
>
> On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
>
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination
> that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many
> accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the
> pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury
> directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall.
> Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism
> AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the
> shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top
> level timed events and sprints.
>
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to
> be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK
> for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is
> no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.
>
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less
> about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific
> shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since
> match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies
> debate clip versus clipless with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine,
> and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or
> without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a
> majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros
> use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road
> bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with
> clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need
> pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the
> most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or
> Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large
> float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never
> accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined
> and small pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat,
> since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats
> aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely
> hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were
> fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly,
> As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased.
> Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a
> rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
> pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i
> for sure would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip
> Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass
> start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low
> forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types
> of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove
> with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and
> easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can
> get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you
> can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some
> fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area,
> not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push
> with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do
> this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a
> little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of
> clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in
> laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for
> example the strap is digging into your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a
> nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure
> there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match
> sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three
> hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace
> the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause
> i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with
> accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't
> release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel
> on Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
>
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and
> have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a
> purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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bikingmom@centurytel.net

I've had several accidental releases, all when riding with clipless
pedals (Campy Daytona).  I switched to "old school" durace sprint
pedals with straps, scored from Brian (yeah, the guy with the
hammer).  As long as I make sure that I have the cleat system
fully engaged and straps tight, I'm good to go.  I wouldn't
switch back to a straight clipless system if my life depended on
it...oh wait, it does.

Donna Smith

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers,
what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ?  What
IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, MIKE MURRAY wrote:

I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination
that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally.  I have seen many
accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal
(even with clips and straps).  I have never seen an injury
directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a
fall.  Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in
mechanism AND straps on top of that.  Some people have actually
bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to
be dabbed.  They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK
for training classes but should not be used for racing.  There
is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less
about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate.  Track specific
shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
FROM:/hwebmail/services/go.php?url=mailto%3Aobra-bounces%40list.obra.org
[mailto:/hwebmail/services/go.php?url=mailto%3Aobra-bounces%40list.obra.org]
ON BEHALF OF john
SENT: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
TO: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,

/hwebmail/services/go.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sheldonbrown.com%2Fgloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps.  Since
match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies
debate clip versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without
having to reach down and loosen the strap.  Probably a majority
of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the
same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike. 

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that
offer more free rotation before release.  By far the most secure
pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two
bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but
over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . 
My issue with them though is undefined and  small pedal to shoe
interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat,
since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned
properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your
knees.  But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly
sloppy and so probably saved knees.  if i recall correctly, As
cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. 
Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a
rotation.  I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
pedals and a cleated slot shoe.  But if i tried to go back now,
i for sure would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip
Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this.  Mass
start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low
forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types
of bicycle racing. 

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
grinding wheel Wire Brush..)  Something that cleanly and easily
goes into the clip pedal.  Stiff thin outer sole if you can get
it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole..  Err or you
can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass
epoxy... thin and fairly stiff.   . 

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
platform pedal that takes strap and clip.  You want surface
area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat.   You
want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat
surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a
little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of
clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds.   Also 
tuck in laces.  Also since the races are short , the pain is
short if for example the strap is digging into your foot. 

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a
nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap.   For
sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match
sprinters.  bike central .. 
Probably  the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three
hole Look Style. Not that i like them.  Just make sure you
replace the cleat when worn.  I use to use shimano SPD pedals a
lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have
issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they
didn't release until after my leg snapped.   So not a fan
anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat. 

_MY STRETCHY PANTS _ wrote:

I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and
have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick
in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a
few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were
the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a
purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
/hwebmail/services/go.php?url=mailto%3Aobra%40list.obra.org
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john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

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Steven Beardsley

I would be very leery of any mtb pedal for the track. They usually do not
have very good cornering clearance and seem to be designed to unclip from
easily to make dabbing and running easier. Plus I would not want that much
unrestricted play in my cleat when I am in a full out sprint. Heal flap is
not a good thing.

I personally have had very food success with the Speedplay Zero track
special pedals. I have never unintentionally released from the and I can
adjust the float just how I like it, which for me is none at all. The
Speedplays have been very solid, even when starting a kilo.

This year I may be looking to get a set of the old Shimano toe clip pedals
with straps for TTs. The straps provide for better power transfer in the
upstroke when starting in a Kilo or 500 meter TT. I would imagine that it
would help with initiating a full out sprint from a track stand during
matched sprints. It would also help when those nasty Keirin guys try to pop
your heal out with their front wheel.

My 2 cents,

-Steven

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of NW Cyclist
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 9:18 AM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using
for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what
has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:

I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER
comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be
stiffer than road shoes.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having
to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and
thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals
then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free
rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so
never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and
small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even
then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee
injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do
through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure
would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it
is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is
not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe
even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous
insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform
pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate
pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot
and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into
your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So
not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote:

I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

A few years ago someone I know did a non-scientific study by watching the
kilo starts at Masters Natz and noting which pedals were used by people that
had pedal release. Kilo starts are the most likely place to see pedal
release. He noted that Speedplay pedals released less than all others,
including toe clips and straps. This was before the Zero came to market.

I am using the Speedplay X. I have had 2 releases on the track. One
happened when the cleat spring broke. The other happed when I was bumped up
track and the other side foot came out in the evasive maneuver. Neither
incident resulted in a fall. I have had releases while riding on the road
rarely, generally while stopping riding fixed. This has occurred only when
using extremely worn pedals and/or cleats in the rain. I have never fallen
due to a pedal release but I have sure seen a lot of people who have.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: NW Cyclist [mailto:nwcyclist39@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 09:18 AM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using
for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what
has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:

I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER
comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be
stiffer than road shoes.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having
to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and
thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals
then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free
rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so
never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and
small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even
then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee
injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do
through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure
would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it
is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is
not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe
even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous
insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform
pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate
pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot
and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into
your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So
not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote:

I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john

Steve, Very good, thanks for also agreeing and adding more considerations. Probably an important discussion.

Since clipless pedals aren't going away at the track, once again, I will re-iterate: accidental release from clipless pedals is best prevented by having large rotation angle before release. this may be new to some but I am not (or not the only one) pulling it out of my ass; other coaches , bicycle technical experts (whatever the hell that means) have stated this as well.

And once again in my opinion, granted not coming from a top racer or someone who trains much, but most of the time i manage to not be an idiot: is that ATAC are a very secure AND safe pedal. Large rotation 17 deg before release. Strong brass cleats that relatively don't wear out or when they do, don't develop little wear ridges or slop, rounded edges so that when you want to get out or need to get out, you will. I am a little jaded though about locking my feet into pedals or cranking up the release tension, something about almost losing a leg will do that to you :)

Anyway see you all out at the track Saturday !

Steve Brown wrote:
Just because you think your road or mountain pedals are secure because they have never accidently release, the track is very different. One can never be too cautious with regard to being secure in your pedals. Having two brakes and a free wheel is very different. Having no where to go or other riders present is very different. Riding a bigger fixed gear is very different. Mike's advice is very clear and much easier to understand than when he is asking if you have a ride home or want them bring an ambulance.

Steve Brown

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

Splinter Wrenn

Actually, for a while a few years ago Brian kept a rubber hammer in the pillbox for getting out.

Splinter Wrenn
Counselor, Kelly Elementary School
“It is easier to exemplify values than teach them.” - Theodore M. Hesburgh

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark J. Ginsberg
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 9:23 am
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

i use the same pedal and shoe that I use for the road, but I increase the release tension a lot!

anyone ever watch brian abers get out of his pedals? he needs his hand to help his foot b/c the release tension is so high.

Mark Ginsberg

NW Cyclist wrote:

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ?  What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?

 

JD

 

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:


I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

 

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally.  I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps).  I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall.  Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that.  Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.

 

2)
Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed.  They should be avoided at the track.

 

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing.  There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

 

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate.  Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.

 

 

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps.  Since
match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap.  Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike. 

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release.  By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. .  My issue with them though is undefined and  small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to
use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees.  But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees.  if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased.  Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation.  I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe.  But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this.  Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing. 

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or
remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..)  Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal.  Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole..  Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff.   . 

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip.  You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat.   You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds.   Also  tuck in laces.  Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot. 

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap.   For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters.  bike central .. 
Probably  the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them.  Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn.  I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped.   So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat. 

My Stretchy Pants wrote:
I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
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john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

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Mark J. Ginsberg
Attorney At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

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Samuel Nicoletti

Look Keos.  I use the "sprint" model because it has a higher max spring tension, and I tighten them as high as they go.  It makes them hard to get into, but it also makes it hard to get out of, which inspires confidence, and confidence in your equipment is paramount.  I concentrate mostly on sprint events, and I've never felt like I might pull out, even in standing starts.  However, I HAVE seen people pull out on speedplays and spd's, for what its worth (not resulting in accidents, thankfully).  I've also heard horror stories about crank bros setups releasing in a sprint.  If the day comes that I think I might be strong enough to worry about my Looks, I know I can get clever with some hardware and zip ties and add a strap to them.  I also use the black keo cleat for no float.  I can't stand having float on the track, although I know plenty of people that use a +/- 4 degree cleat and don't find it to be a problem.  Although I don't see anything wrong with using a traditional slotted cleat and a pedal with toe clips, I also don't see any benefits (unless you've already got that setup on your road bike and you'd like to share shoes between road and track).  Road pedals, tightened down, work just fine, and although I'm new to the Alpenrose, I can tell you that's the sort of setup almost everybody at the 7-11 Velodrome in CO Springs was on, even the big Olympic Training Center sprinters (some with a strap, some without).  I hope that was helpful, and I can't wait to see everybody on May 3rd!

Sam

On Mon Apr 14 9:17 , "NW Cyclist" sent:

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ?  What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?

 

JD



 

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray <mike.murray@obra.org> wrote:

I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

 

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally.  I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps).  I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall.  Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that.  Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.

 

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed.  They should be avoided at the track.

 

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing.  There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

 

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate.  Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.

 

 

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john

Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM

To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,



http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html

A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.



Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps.  Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.



However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap.  Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike. 



If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release.  By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. .  My issue with them though is undefined and  small pedal to shoe interface.



If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees.  But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees.  if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased.  Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation.  I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe.  But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...



If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this.  Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing. 



1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..)  Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal.  Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole..  Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff.   . 



2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip.  You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat.   You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..



Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds.   Also  tuck in laces.  Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot. 



Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap.   For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters.  bike central .. 

Probably  the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them.  Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn.  I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped.   So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat. 







My Stretchy Pants <mystretchypants@gmail.com> wrote:

I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have

a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in

the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I

tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few

weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the

wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious

matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose

built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?



Robert Synak

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john m schmidt, pe

portland oregon

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Mark J. Ginsberg

i use the same pedal and shoe that I use for the road, but I increase the release tension a lot!

anyone ever watch brian abers get out of his pedals? he needs his hand to help his foot b/c the release tension is so high.

Mark Ginsberg

NW Cyclist wrote: So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote: I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.


Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote: I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mark J. Ginsberg
Attorney At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

NW Cyclist

So let's hear from more of you experienced track racers, what are you using
for a pedal/cleat system on the track ? What IS working for you and what
has NOT worked ?

JD

On 4/13/08, Mike Murray wrote:
>
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that
> NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
> inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
> straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
> pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
> other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
> actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
> practical for top level timed events and sprints.
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
> dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
> training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
> against it but I think it should be avoided.
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
> strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be
> stiffer than road shoes.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *john
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> *To:* My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
> sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
> versus clipless with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
> probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having
> to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
> that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and
> thus same shoes as on their road bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless
> pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer
> more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have
> ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals,
> LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large
> angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is
> undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
> there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
> preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even
> then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
> knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee
> injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do
> through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
> pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure
> would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals,
> it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
> more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is
> not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
> grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
> the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe
> even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous
> insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin
> plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your
> foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
> further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
> Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
> races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into
> your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
> collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
> purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
> Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
> worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
> for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
> there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So
> not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> *My Stretchy Pants * wrote:
>
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Steve Brown

Just because you think your road or mountain pedals are secure
because they have never accidently release, the track is very
different. One can never be too cautious with regard to being secure
in your pedals. Having two brakes and a free wheel is very
different. Having no where to go or other riders present is very
different. Riding a bigger fixed gear is very different. Mike's
advice is very clear and much easier to understand than when he is
asking if you have a ride home or want them bring an ambulance.

Steve Brown
On Apr 13, 2008, at 8:26 PM, john wrote:

> 1., 2. Well of course I agree especially about the NEVER
> accidentally release! should be every racer's worst nightmare.
> But thats what i was saying... the two-bar type pedals, [ATAC,
> eggbeaters, designed for mud clearing, new quartz?, yes in
> contrast to how they appear, especially the eggbeater,**] in my
> experience have Never accidentally released (even under erratic
> sprint testing, cause i was not about to race on them until i knew
> how secure they were for me. i am more worried about road race
> sprints then the track.). I found they were way more secure than
> Road Look, SPD-SL, and SPDs(by far).. the secret is the large
> rotation before release.. never tried speedplay, but thats why
> they are secure too.
>
> I recommend doing sprint testing (by yourself on quiet street of
> course...), setup might different / rotation release different.
>
>
> 3, 4. Stiff soles are nice, but you push with the ball of your
> foot... I was just suggesting how one could go about it if you
> can't use or won't be using cycling shoes. there really isn't a
> safety issue that i can think of ... until you can find or pickup
> some proper cycling shoes... But yes, OK, if you can afford a
> helmet and some shorts, some second hand or used cycling shoes
> shouldn't be a stretch.
>
> ** full disclosure, i did have an eggbeater spring break on me in
> crit... tried ATACs and they are much higher quality pedal, and
> super secure. but the whole shoe to foot interface for pushing
> down is simply your shoes outer sole pressing on the back of the
> pedal, and some on the two bars.. so I don't know if i like them
> because of this, indentations are formed into your shoe..
>
> "have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
> pedal to release in a fall."
> I think if both pedals release, or if Both pedals do NOT release,
> you are OK. My tibia (and fibula) broke when left released, which
> allowed my body to rotate, and the right did not release. But also
> a Slow speed fall, so i didn't flip and have the bike up in the
> air, rather the wheels were firmly planted (due to my weight
> pushing down too) and this resisted the torque.
>
>
>
> Mike Murray wrote:
> I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:
>
> 1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination
> that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many
> accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the
> pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury
> directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall.
> Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism
> AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the
> shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top
> level timed events and sprints.
>
> 2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to
> be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.
>
> 3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK
> for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is
> no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.
>
> 4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less
> about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific
> shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.
>
>
> Mike Murray
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
> bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
> Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
> To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose
>
> Robert,
>
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
> A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.
>
> Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since
> match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies
> debate clip versus clipless with them.
>
> However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine,
> and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or
> without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a
> majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros
> use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road
> bike.
>
> If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with
> clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need
> pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the
> most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or
> Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large
> float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never
> accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined
> and small pedal to shoe interface.
>
> If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat,
> since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats
> aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely
> hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were
> fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly,
> As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased.
> Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a
> rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
> pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i
> for sure would have issues...
>
> If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip
> Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass
> start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low
> forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other
> types of bicycle racing.
>
> 1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove
> with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and
> easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can
> get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you
> can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some
> fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .
>
> 2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a
> platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area,
> not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push
> with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do
> this on..
>
> Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a
> little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of
> clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in
> laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for
> example the strap is digging into your foot.
>
> Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a
> nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure
> there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match
> sprinters. bike central ..
> Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three
> hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace
> the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause
> i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with
> accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't
> release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel
> on Steel pedal to cleat.
>
>
>
> My Stretchy Pants wrote:
> I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and
> have
> a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
> the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
> tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
> weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
> wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
> matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a
> purpose
> built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?
>
> Robert Synak
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> john m schmidt, pe
> portland oregon
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john

1., 2. Well of course I agree especially about the NEVER accidentally release! should be every racer's worst nightmare. But thats what i was saying... the two-bar type pedals, [ATAC, eggbeaters, designed for mud clearing, new quartz?, yes in contrast to how they appear, especially the eggbeater,**] in my experience have Never accidentally released (even under erratic sprint testing, cause i was not about to race on them until i knew how secure they were for me. i am more worried about road race sprints then the track.). I found they were way more secure than Road Look, SPD-SL, and SPDs(by far).. the secret is the large rotation before release.. never tried speedplay, but thats why they are secure too.

I recommend doing sprint testing (by yourself on quiet street of course...), setup might different / rotation release different.

3, 4. Stiff soles are nice, but you push with the ball of your foot... I was just suggesting how one could go about it if you can't use or won't be using cycling shoes. there really isn't a safety issue that i can think of ... until you can find or pickup some proper cycling shoes... But yes, OK, if you can afford a helmet and some shorts, some second hand or used cycling shoes shouldn't be a stretch.

** full disclosure, i did have an eggbeater spring break on me in crit... tried ATACs and they are much higher quality pedal, and super secure. but the whole shoe to foot interface for pushing down is simply your shoes outer sole pressing on the back of the pedal, and some on the two bars.. so I don't know if i like them because of this, indentations are formed into your shoe..

"have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall."
I think if both pedals release, or if Both pedals do NOT release, you are OK. My tibia (and fibula) broke when left released, which allowed my body to rotate, and the right did not release. But also a Slow speed fall, so i didn't flip and have the bike up in the air, rather the wheels were firmly planted (due to my weight pushing down too) and this resisted the torque.

Mike Murray wrote: Message I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be stiffer than road shoes.


Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote: I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

Mike Murray

I'd have to disagree with a couple of John's points:

1) For racing at the track you want a shoe and pedal combination that NEVER
comes unclipped accidentally. I have seen many accidents caused by
inadvertent detachment of the shoe from the pedal (even with clips and
straps). I have never seen an injury directly because of a failure of the
pedal to release in a fall. Some riders use pedals that have an SPD or
other clip in mechanism AND straps on top of that. Some people have
actually bolted the shoes to the pedals, although this is really only
practical for top level timed events and sprints.

2) Mountain bike pedals are designed to release if a foot needs to be
dabbed. They should be avoided at the track.

3) A shoe with no cleat used in a toe clips and straps pedal is OK for
training classes but should not be used for racing. There is no rule
against it but I think it should be avoided.

4) Although mass start track racing is more about spin and less about
strength a softer flex shoe is inadequate. Track specific shoes tend to be
stiffer than road shoes.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of john
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 14:29 PM
To: My Stretchy Pants; 'OBRA list'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Shoes for Clips at Alpenrose

Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match
sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip
versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and
probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having
to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers
that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and
thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals
then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free
rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used
were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too
now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so
never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and
small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since
there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly,
preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even
then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved
knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee
injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do
through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip
pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure
would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it
is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is
more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is
not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with
grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into
the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe
even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous
insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform
pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate
pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot
and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little
further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the
Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the
races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into
your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice
collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still
purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look
Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when
worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes
for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and
there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So
not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote:

I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

Harry Phinney

There are still a few shoes made for clip & strap cleats. Examples:

http://www.businesscycles.com/trshoe.htm

Harry Phinney

john

Robert,

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cl.html
A cleat can be for Toe-and-Clip pedals or for Clipless pedals.

Match sprinters use toe and clip usually double straps. Since match sprinters are usually pretty strong, i don't think roadies debate clip versus clipless with them.

However for mass start omnium events, clip-less pedals are fine, and probably preferred since they release without a struggle or without having to reach down and loosen the strap. Probably a majority of track racers that race omnium events including the pros use the same Clipless pedals and thus same shoes as on their road bike.

If you concerned or if you are accidentally pulling out with clipless pedals then they aren't adjusted correctly or you need pedals that offer more free rotation before release. By far the most secure pedals i have ever used were TIME mtb pedals, or Eggbeaters (the "two bar" type pedals, LOOK too now..), large float, they unclip easy but over at quite a large angle so never accidentally released. . My issue with them though is undefined and small pedal to shoe interface.

If you are going to use Toe-and-Clip pedals with a slotted cleat, since there is no float or rotation, You must get the cleats aligned properly, preferably professionally or you will most likely hurt your knees. But even then, In the old days the shoes were fairly sloppy and so probably saved knees. if i recall correctly, As cycling shoe's heel cups stiffened, knee injuries increased. Depends on what sort of rotation you foot likes to do through a rotation. I had no issues when i first started on toe and clip pedals and a cleated slot shoe. But if i tried to go back now, i for sure would have issues...

If you are going to use tennis / running shoes with Toe and Clip Pedals, it is rare but there is nothing wrong with this. Mass start Track racing is more about high spin speeds and thus low forces, so high shoe stiffness is not as critical as in other types of bicycle racing.

1. You want a clean no frills shoe with minimal tread (or remove with grinding wheel Wire Brush..) Something that cleanly and easily goes into the clip pedal. Stiff thin outer sole if you can get it, or you could maybe even find a stiff insole.. Err or you can do like did once with a fibrous insole... work in some fiberglass epoxy... thin and fairly stiff. .

2. And Pedals (if using a running shoe), you want probably almost a platform pedal that takes strap and clip. You want surface area, not a thin plate pedal as for a slotted cleat. You want to push with the ball of your foot and you want a nice flat surface to do this on..

Keep in mind with Clip and Strap pedals, they might stick out a little further and you thus you have to be a little more mindful of clipping the Alpenrose banking at slow speeds. Also tuck in laces. Also since the races are short , the pain is short if for example the strap is digging into your foot.

Check out Next Adventure and City Bikes, the latter usually has a nice collection of used shoes and pedals for cheap. For sure there are still purposely built toe and clip shoes for match sprinters. bike central ..
Probably the most cost effective clipless pedals are the three hole Look Style. Not that i like them. Just make sure you replace the cleat when worn. I use to use shimano SPD pedals a lot (cause i like walkable shoes for commuting) But seemed to have issue with accidental release here and there.. and then once they didn't release until after my leg snapped. So not a fan anymore of Steel on Steel pedal to cleat.

My Stretchy Pants wrote: I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

My Stretchy Pants

I've heard that at the track, clips are preferred over cleats, and have
a set of clips for my track bike. But what sort of shoes do I stick in
the clips? Tennis shoes? Standard cycling shoes without the cleats? I
tried using chuck taylors in the clips on a hill and thought for a few
weeks after that I may have broken my foot. Clearly, sneakers were the
wrong choice. Is the clip v. clipless question an important religious
matter, regularly debated, like optimum spoke count? Is there a purpose
built shoe experienced track racers use with clips?

Robert Synak