Bradley Heintz

Thanks much for all your responses regarding tips for cornering. Seems
there are many different techniques that work well for folks. A number
of riders recommended a method of turning which was also mentioned in
this month's bicycling magazine. I found this posted question and answer
from an old edition of bike magazine that sums of what many folks
recommended. Thought I'd share.

QUESTION: I can keep up with my buds on climbs, flats, even when it gets
a little hairy in the group. But I get blown right out the back on every
turn. What can I do?

ANSWER: Lance Armstrong: Most pros rely on their tires and press their
bikes into the corner. You can really push a tire these days. Keep your
body upright and push the bike down. When I won the world championship
in Norway in 1993, I was cornering hard in the wettest race of my life.
It was so wet it's stuck in the minds of a lot of racers. Everyone talks
about it. Chris Carmichael: You can corner faster if you lean your bike
and keep your body perpendicular to the ground. Notice that Lance's
weight is on the outside pedal. Notice also that he's ready for braking,
but not using the brakes. Brake before the corner, not during it. 3
steps to quick turns 1. Go out on a grassy field, get your speed up, and
get a sense for leaning your bike way over. 2. Next, find a vacant area
like a housing development or industrial park where you can vary your
speed. Do the same corner over and over, each time a little faster. 3.
Experiment with different lines and lean angles as well as speeds. From
October 1999 Bicycling magazine

Cheers,

Bradley Heintz

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan H [mailto:dan@bicyclerepairman.us]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:43 AM
To: Hal Ballard; 'Bradley Heintz'; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Hal,

I'm hip to counter steering to initiate an emergency maneuver. I've had
to do it lots. That's a whole 'nuther deal than we were talking about.
The turn I described is primarily for navigating mountain roads or
criteriums where you know what's coming at least a second or two in
advance. ;-)

----- Original Message -----

From: Hal Ballard

To: 'Dan H' ; 'Bradley Heintz'
; obra@list.obra.org

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:14 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Dan,

The League teaches a maneuver called the "Instant Turn" primarily for
avoiding hooks (right or left) by vehicles turning in our path.

However, the maneuver you describe is loaded with too much information
and we often don't have time to think about what to do when to avoid
such a collision.

The maneuver, as I teach it and the League prescribes it is:

First, there should be a quick steer in the direction opposite that in
which you want to go (this is the counterintuitive aspect, who wants to
crash into the car?). This causes the bike to lean in the opposite
direction. Then quickly steer back into that lean and, with the outside
pedal down, as you say, you start the turn. This will avoid the inner
pedal from scraping the ground and possibly flipping you back up into
the original line of travel. Keeping your inside arm bent down and as
close to your inside bent knee as you're in the turn, and looking toward
the direction you want to go, complete the turn and come back upright.

Keeping the saddle tight against 'the inside of your outside leg' or
pressing your leg against the top tube should develop as the maneuver is
being conducted.

As you mention, practice makes perfect and in order to perfect this
maneuver, practice, practice, practice. Your body will remember the
behavior expected of it and you can continue safely on your way.

Rubber side down.

Hal Ballard

LCI Coach and Instructor #815

League of American Bicyclists

acting Executive Director

Chair, WashCo BTC

http://washcobtc.org

503.516.6733

I ride my bicycle to ride my bicycle." ~Zen proverb

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan H [mailto:dan@bicyclerepairman.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:05 PM
To: Bradley Heintz; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Bradley,

I'm not a coach and I'm sure many knowledgeable cyclists will disagree
with what I'm going to tell you. I'm confident enough I'm going to put
it to the list so less experienced riders can benefit.

Back in the mid to late '80's I read an article by Davis Phinney in (I
think) Bicycling Magazine about how he learned to corner with the pros.
After practicing his advise, I have learned to corner faster than most
people so that I have to have room in front of me coming into a corner
or I will run up on whoever is in front of me. It's completely the
opposite of most people teach, of what most pros do and until you
practice, it seems counter intuitive. I see almost nobody doing this. I
will try my best to describe it to you but first, I will brag a little
bit so you know I'm not just some guy that read an article.

I raced for 30 years from 1974 to 2004. I've done mountainous stage
races such as Tour of Ashland, a bunch of cyclocross nationals, won some
state medals on the track and did two mountain bike worlds (where I
raced with Davis Phinney) including Mammoth Mt. Kamikaze downhills where
my best speed was 55 mph.

Here is the technique:

Weight the outside pedal but not totally. How much will come with
practice. The saddle should press against the inside of your outside
leg.

Do NOT hang your inside knee out like the motorcycle road racers do!
Instead, press it into the top tube to stabilize yourself against the
bike.

Don't lean the bike into the turn. Hold it out away from the turn as
upright as you can, steering instead of leaning. This is accomplished by
getting real low over the bars and leaning your upper body into the
turn. Point your nose into the turn and almost stiff arm the outside
handlebar. In other words, push the bar away from your upper body.

If you start to slide, you can turn into the slide to correct it.

About that Tour of Ashland, it was before I learned to corner and I was
somewhere behind the main field going down Dead Indian Road as fast as I
dared. On the right was big rocks and the left was sky. No guard rail.
If I touched the gravel shoulder, death was a real possibility.
Suddenly, Robert Burney and 2 or 3 other guys passed me going way
faster. (no speedo in those days) I accelerated to join the groupetto
figuring if they could do it, I could do it. I followed them through one
corner and got so scared I would go into the cliff, I had to let them
go. Now that Davis has showed me how to corner, I feel I could descend
with anybody.

One more thing: I work on a lot of bikes and 99% of the time I see rear
brakes wearing out 3 times faster than front brakes. This indicates
flawed braking technique. I suggest if you are right handed, you may
want your front brake hooked up to the right lever. That's another
story.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bradley Heintz

To: obra@list.obra.org

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:26 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Looking for tips on how to best distribute weight to corner on a road
bike. Any good articles out there? Coming from a mountain bike
background and always considered myself a pretty good descenter until I
road my new road bike with a group of racers. They (we) descended as a
group - meaning there was someone right next to me as I negotiated a
tight turn at high speed . I found having my line dictated by the group
unnerving. I slipped to the back of the group then spent the next 5
miles tying to catch up!

The problem was that I kept finding myself halfway through the corner
leaning with a certain turn radius only to find the corner got sharper.
I found myself unable to get my body weight to lean harder to make the
turn gracefully. Not to mention I found myslef unwilling to lean my body
any further into the corner for fear of sliding out my wheels if I
encountered gravel.

I read that an effective method for sharp cornering at speed is to put
the weight on the outside foot and lean the bike underneath the rider.
The rider remains upright while the bike is leaned over. I tried it and
found it very effective for transitioning body weight into the corners.
Even when the corner got progressively tighter I could lean the bike as
much as needed. Plus my weight remained more upright allowing me to
recover in the event of an emergency. (Like when rounding a blind corner
to find a car partially in my lane.) Before I celebrate, thought I'd
run this by experienced descenters to make sure I'm not setting myself
up for a nasty fall.

Cheers,

Bradley

_____

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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5/7/2008 5:23 PM

Brian Engelen

Dan, is this you? Maybe we have met somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxfzm9dfqBw

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Dan H
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:05 PM
To: Bradley Heintz; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Bradley,

I'm not a coach and I'm sure many knowledgeable cyclists will disagree with
what I'm going to tell you. I'm confident enough I'm going to put it to the
list so less experienced riders can benefit.

Back in the mid to late '80's I read an article by Davis Phinney in (I
think) Bicycling Magazine about how he learned to corner with the pros.
After practicing his advise, I have learned to corner faster than most
people so that I have to have room in front of me coming into a corner or I
will run up on whoever is in front of me. It's completely the opposite of
most people teach, of what most pros do and until you practice, it seems
counter intuitive. I see almost nobody doing this. I will try my best to
describe it to you but first, I will brag a little bit so you know I'm not
just some guy that read an article.

I raced for 30 years from 1974 to 2004. I've done mountainous stage races
such as Tour of Ashland, a bunch of cyclocross nationals, won some state
medals on the track and did two mountain bike worlds (where I raced with
Davis Phinney) including Mammoth Mt. Kamikaze downhills where my best speed
was 55 mph.

Here is the technique:

Weight the outside pedal but not totally. How much will come with practice.
The saddle should press against the inside of your outside leg.

Do NOT hang your inside knee out like the motorcycle road racers do!
Instead, press it into the top tube to stabilize yourself against the bike.

Don't lean the bike into the turn. Hold it out away from the turn as upright
as you can, steering instead of leaning. This is accomplished by getting
real low over the bars and leaning your upper body into the turn. Point your
nose into the turn and almost stiff arm the outside handlebar. In other
words, push the bar away from your upper body.

If you start to slide, you can turn into the slide to correct it.

About that Tour of Ashland, it was before I learned to corner and I was
somewhere behind the main field going down Dead Indian Road as fast as I
dared. On the right was big rocks and the left was sky. No guard rail. If I
touched the gravel shoulder, death was a real possibility. Suddenly, Robert
Burney and 2 or 3 other guys passed me going way faster. (no speedo in those
days) I accelerated to join the groupetto figuring if they could do it, I
could do it. I followed them through one corner and got so scared I would go
into the cliff, I had to let them go. Now that Davis has showed me how to
corner, I feel I could descend with anybody.

One more thing: I work on a lot of bikes and 99% of the time I see rear
brakes wearing out 3 times faster than front brakes. This indicates flawed
braking technique. I suggest if you are right handed, you may want your
front brake hooked up to the right lever. That's another story.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bradley Heintz

To: obra@list.obra.org

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:26 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Looking for tips on how to best distribute weight to corner on a road bike.
Any good articles out there? Coming from a mountain bike background and
always considered myself a pretty good descenter until I road my new road
bike with a group of racers. They (we) descended as a group - meaning there
was someone right next to me as I negotiated a tight turn at high speed . I
found having my line dictated by the group unnerving. I slipped to the back
of the group then spent the next 5 miles tying to catch up!

The problem was that I kept finding myself halfway through the corner
leaning with a certain turn radius only to find the corner got sharper. I
found myself unable to get my body weight to lean harder to make the turn
gracefully. Not to mention I found myslef unwilling to lean my body any
further into the corner for fear of sliding out my wheels if I encountered
gravel.

I read that an effective method for sharp cornering at speed is to put the
weight on the outside foot and lean the bike underneath the rider. The rider
remains upright while the bike is leaned over. I tried it and found it very
effective for transitioning body weight into the corners. Even when the
corner got progressively tighter I could lean the bike as much as needed.
Plus my weight remained more upright allowing me to recover in the event of
an emergency. (Like when rounding a blind corner to find a car partially in
my lane.) Before I celebrate, thought I'd run this by experienced
descenters to make sure I'm not setting myself up for a nasty fall.

Cheers,

Bradley

_____

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Dan H

Hal,
I'm hip to counter steering to initiate an emergency maneuver. I've had to do it lots. That's a whole 'nuther deal than we were talking about. The turn I described is primarily for navigating mountain roads or criteriums where you know what's coming at least a second or two in advance. ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Hal Ballard
To: 'Dan H' ; 'Bradley Heintz' ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Dan,

The League teaches a maneuver called the “Instant Turn” primarily for avoiding hooks (right or left) by vehicles turning in our path.

However, the maneuver you describe is loaded with too much information and we often don’t have time to think about what to do when to avoid such a collision.

The maneuver, as I teach it and the League prescribes it is:

First, there should be a quick steer in the direction opposite that in which you want to go (this is the counterintuitive aspect, who wants to crash into the car?). This causes the bike to lean in the opposite direction. Then quickly steer back into that lean and, with the outside pedal down, as you say, you start the turn. This will avoid the inner pedal from scraping the ground and possibly flipping you back up into the original line of travel. Keeping your inside arm bent down and as close to your inside bent knee as you’re in the turn, and looking toward the direction you want to go, complete the turn and come back upright.

Keeping the saddle tight against ‘the inside of your outside leg’ or pressing your leg against the top tube should develop as the maneuver is being conducted.

As you mention, practice makes perfect and in order to perfect this maneuver, practice, practice, practice. Your body will remember the behavior expected of it and you can continue safely on your way.

Rubber side down…

Hal Ballard

LCI Coach and Instructor #815

League of American Bicyclists

acting Executive Director

Chair, WashCo BTC

http://washcobtc.org

503.516.6733

I ride my bicycle to ride my bicycle.” ~Zen proverb

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan H [mailto:dan@bicyclerepairman.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:05 PM
To: Bradley Heintz; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Bradley,

I'm not a coach and I'm sure many knowledgeable cyclists will disagree with what I'm going to tell you. I'm confident enough I'm going to put it to the list so less experienced riders can benefit.

Back in the mid to late '80's I read an article by Davis Phinney in (I think) Bicycling Magazine about how he learned to corner with the pros. After practicing his advise, I have learned to corner faster than most people so that I have to have room in front of me coming into a corner or I will run up on whoever is in front of me. It's completely the opposite of most people teach, of what most pros do and until you practice, it seems counter intuitive. I see almost nobody doing this. I will try my best to describe it to you but first, I will brag a little bit so you know I'm not just some guy that read an article.

I raced for 30 years from 1974 to 2004. I've done mountainous stage races such as Tour of Ashland, a bunch of cyclocross nationals, won some state medals on the track and did two mountain bike worlds (where I raced with Davis Phinney) including Mammoth Mt. Kamikaze downhills where my best speed was 55 mph.

Here is the technique:

Weight the outside pedal but not totally. How much will come with practice. The saddle should press against the inside of your outside leg.

Do NOT hang your inside knee out like the motorcycle road racers do! Instead, press it into the top tube to stabilize yourself against the bike.

Don't lean the bike into the turn. Hold it out away from the turn as upright as you can, steering instead of leaning. This is accomplished by getting real low over the bars and leaning your upper body into the turn. Point your nose into the turn and almost stiff arm the outside handlebar. In other words, push the bar away from your upper body.

If you start to slide, you can turn into the slide to correct it.

About that Tour of Ashland, it was before I learned to corner and I was somewhere behind the main field going down Dead Indian Road as fast as I dared. On the right was big rocks and the left was sky. No guard rail. If I touched the gravel shoulder, death was a real possibility. Suddenly, Robert Burney and 2 or 3 other guys passed me going way faster. (no speedo in those days) I accelerated to join the groupetto figuring if they could do it, I could do it. I followed them through one corner and got so scared I would go into the cliff, I had to let them go. Now that Davis has showed me how to corner, I feel I could descend with anybody.

One more thing: I work on a lot of bikes and 99% of the time I see rear brakes wearing out 3 times faster than front brakes. This indicates flawed braking technique. I suggest if you are right handed, you may want your front brake hooked up to the right lever. That's another story.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bradley Heintz

To: obra@list.obra.org

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:26 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Looking for tips on how to best distribute weight to corner on a road bike. Any good articles out there? Coming from a mountain bike background and always considered myself a pretty good descenter until I road my new road bike with a group of racers. They (we) descended as a group - meaning there was someone right next to me as I negotiated a tight turn at high speed . I found having my line dictated by the group unnerving. I slipped to the back of the group then spent the next 5 miles tying to catch up!

The problem was that I kept finding myself halfway through the corner leaning with a certain turn radius only to find the corner got sharper. I found myself unable to get my body weight to lean harder to make the turn gracefully. Not to mention I found myslef unwilling to lean my body any further into the corner for fear of sliding out my wheels if I encountered gravel.

I read that an effective method for sharp cornering at speed is to put the weight on the outside foot and lean the bike underneath the rider. The rider remains upright while the bike is leaned over. I tried it and found it very effective for transitioning body weight into the corners. Even when the corner got progressively tighter I could lean the bike as much as needed. Plus my weight remained more upright allowing me to recover in the event of an emergency. (Like when rounding a blind corner to find a car partially in my lane.) Before I celebrate, thought I’d run this by experienced descenters to make sure I’m not setting myself up for a nasty fall.

Cheers,

Bradley

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Hal Ballard

Dan,

The League teaches a maneuver called the “Instant Turn” primarily for
avoiding hooks (right or left) by vehicles turning in our path.

However, the maneuver you describe is loaded with too much information and
we often don’t have time to think about what to do when to avoid such a
collision.

The maneuver, as I teach it and the League prescribes it is:

First, there should be a quick steer in the direction opposite that in which
you want to go (this is the counterintuitive aspect, who wants to crash into
the car?). This causes the bike to lean in the opposite direction. Then
quickly steer back into that lean and, with the outside pedal down, as you
say, you start the turn. This will avoid the inner pedal from scraping the
ground and possibly flipping you back up into the original line of travel.
Keeping your inside arm bent down and as close to your inside bent knee as
you’re in the turn, and looking toward the direction you want to go,
complete the turn and come back upright.

Keeping the saddle tight against ‘the inside of your outside leg’ or
pressing your leg against the top tube should develop as the maneuver is
being conducted.

As you mention, practice makes perfect and in order to perfect this
maneuver, practice, practice, practice. Your body will remember the
behavior expected of it and you can continue safely on your way.

Rubber side down…

Hal Ballard

LCI Coach and Instructor #815

League of American Bicyclists

acting Executive Director

Chair, WashCo BTC

HYPERLINK "http://washcobtc.org/"http://washcobtc.org

503.516.6733

I ride my bicycle to ride my bicycle.” ~Zen proverb

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan H [mailto:dan@bicyclerepairman.us]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 10:05 PM
To: Bradley Heintz; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Bradley,

I'm not a coach and I'm sure many knowledgeable cyclists will disagree with
what I'm going to tell you. I'm confident enough I'm going to put it to the
list so less experienced riders can benefit.

Back in the mid to late '80's I read an article by Davis Phinney in (I
think) Bicycling Magazine about how he learned to corner with the pros.
After practicing his advise, I have learned to corner faster than most
people so that I have to have room in front of me coming into a corner or I
will run up on whoever is in front of me. It's completely the opposite of
most people teach, of what most pros do and until you practice, it seems
counter intuitive. I see almost nobody doing this. I will try my best to
describe it to you but first, I will brag a little bit so you know I'm not
just some guy that read an article.

I raced for 30 years from 1974 to 2004. I've done mountainous stage races
such as Tour of Ashland, a bunch of cyclocross nationals, won some state
medals on the track and did two mountain bike worlds (where I raced with
Davis Phinney) including Mammoth Mt. Kamikaze downhills where my best speed
was 55 mph.

Here is the technique:

Weight the outside pedal but not totally. How much will come with practice.
The saddle should press against the inside of your outside leg.

Do NOT hang your inside knee out like the motorcycle road racers do!
Instead, press it into the top tube to stabilize yourself against the bike.

Don't lean the bike into the turn. Hold it out away from the turn as upright
as you can, steering instead of leaning. This is accomplished by getting
real low over the bars and leaning your upper body into the turn. Point your
nose into the turn and almost stiff arm the outside handlebar. In other
words, push the bar away from your upper body.

If you start to slide, you can turn into the slide to correct it.

About that Tour of Ashland, it was before I learned to corner and I was
somewhere behind the main field going down Dead Indian Road as fast as I
dared. On the right was big rocks and the left was sky. No guard rail. If I
touched the gravel shoulder, death was a real possibility. Suddenly, Robert
Burney and 2 or 3 other guys passed me going way faster. (no speedo in those
days) I accelerated to join the groupetto figuring if they could do it, I
could do it. I followed them through one corner and got so scared I would go
into the cliff, I had to let them go. Now that Davis has showed me how to
corner, I feel I could descend with anybody.

One more thing: I work on a lot of bikes and 99% of the time I see rear
brakes wearing out 3 times faster than front brakes. This indicates flawed
braking technique. I suggest if you are right handed, you may want your
front brake hooked up to the right lever. That's another story.

----- Original Message -----

From: HYPERLINK "mailto:bheintz@znet.com"Bradley Heintz

To: HYPERLINK "mailto:obra@list.obra.org"obra@list.obra.org

Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:26 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Looking for tips on how to best distribute weight to corner on a road bike.
Any good articles out there? Coming from a mountain bike background and
always considered myself a pretty good descenter until I road my new road
bike with a group of racers. They (we) descended as a group - meaning there
was someone right next to me as I negotiated a tight turn at high speed . I
found having my line dictated by the group unnerving. I slipped to the back
of the group then spent the next 5 miles tying to catch up!

The problem was that I kept finding myself halfway through the corner
leaning with a certain turn radius only to find the corner got sharper. I
found myself unable to get my body weight to lean harder to make the turn
gracefully. Not to mention I found myslef unwilling to lean my body any
further into the corner for fear of sliding out my wheels if I encountered
gravel.

I read that an effective method for sharp cornering at speed is to put the
weight on the outside foot and lean the bike underneath the rider. The rider
remains upright while the bike is leaned over. I tried it and found it very
effective for transitioning body weight into the corners. Even when the
corner got progressively tighter I could lean the bike as much as needed.
Plus my weight remained more upright allowing me to recover in the event of
an emergency. (Like when rounding a blind corner to find a car partially in
my lane.) Before I celebrate, thought I’d run this by experienced
descenters to make sure I’m not setting myself up for a nasty fall.

Cheers,

Bradley

_____

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

No virus found in this outgoing message.
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5:23 PM

john

This is an interesting subject because it is a safety issue too.
I will have to try dan's technique. but the normal method works too and i think a little more natural. (executive summary: it's mainly just learning how to look into the corner. )

- You have two contact patches, the weight of your body is on those patches no matter what you do with your feet or body. I do Iean forward to make sure my front wheel gets equal weight. It certainly wont hurt to put weight on the outside foot though i don't think its necessary, and i dont' think you will corner any better or worse.

-Most important thing to remember is to put you head into the corner. You have to look into the corner. If you ever take a motorcycle class they want you to put you head over almost 90 degrees with eyes up. Its hard for a cyclist because we are so use to watching the road for crap. (It also hard cause you think you already know how to corner properly being so experienced and all). They also emphasized that motorcycle cornering crashes are not because of excessive speed, but because the driver failed to look into the corner. In other words, if you lean the bike into a corner it will stick. (dry roads). If you going too fast, lean more, it will stick. Countersteer to lean the bike more or look harder into the corner.

-Practice helps. the best i became at cornering was when riding Mary's peak weekly for a summer. I won a crit and nearly every prime by cornering technique alone.. and i was far from being the strongest rider. A couple guys actually slid out even though i was going a bit faster?

-I learned the hard way, that if you panic and brake in a corner your forearms and upper body muscles tend to lock up, you cant steer and you will go straight off the road. So I usually shake my elbows a little if I am braking in a corner. The motorcycle class taught not to brake in corner, that traction is finite, if you brake, you use up the traction that you might need for cornering.

-based on bike and motorcycle experience, I am thinking how it works is: if you look into the corner, your body will automatically countersteer for you. You can also just countersteer. I do a combination (since my eyes still tend to wander to the road surface looking at crap, and then i am like oops and have to countersteer. if you fixate on a pothole you will tend to hit it. )

-Front end geometry seems to make a difference. I don't know if you can actually corner any faster (because regardless you still have two patches of rubber ), but in my experience a bicycle setup with high trail will definitely feel like it can corner better, way better, and if you feel comfortable well then that's really what it is all about, since it is mental. The one bike i had setup i was actually comfortable cornering hard (ie feeling g's) while in a full tuck with both hands next to the stem. Never could do that with a normal racing bike geometry.

-Hairpins are a different story. I still am not that good with hairpins.
-Also wet roads, moss, and a good hard lean, don't mix.

-Dan's technique i use for Crits if I feel like pedaling through the corners. Also on wet roads, i try to stay more upright and steer. For fast cornering down dry I have never tried it but probably will experiment.

-Countersteering can be very subtle and automatic, you don't even realize it until you go out practice and think about it while cornering. On a bicycle, (or skis or skates rollerblades,etc), you are balancing your CG, constantly adding steering input to stay upright. Once you steer the wheels out from under you, your body starts to fall over and so you have to steer the wheels back up and under you.

Its interesting that even today, even with all the computing power, all the parameters and interaction involved in bicycle steering have never been fully explained. Well and i don't know if anyone really cares too much, what we have works. just one example of complexity, when you lean the bike over, your trail changes.

-finally don't ever corner faster then you comfortable with. I think what typically happens is one panics, puts on the brakes hard, upper body locks up, automatic steering is gone, and straight off the road hopefully not into a tree. People have died. I think it does help to follow others down around corners, since you eyes are on them looking into the corners, your body will automatically steer properly.

1. Look into the corner. Look hard into corner. Keep telling yourself to look into the corner. countersteer for more lean.
2. Shake elbows if you must brake while cornering.
3. practice. Even though i have a bit of experience, before a crit I will still go out and touch up my cornering. I also recently learned a lot more by driving a motorcycle and practicing with that. mainly the whole looking into corner thing I never considered as important as I now do.

Dan H wrote: @font-face { font-family: Imprint MT Shadow; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.EmailStyle17 { COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: Arial } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } Bradley,
I'm not a coach and I'm sure many knowledgeable cyclists will disagree with what I'm going to tell you. I'm confident enough I'm going to put it to the list so less experienced riders can benefit.
Back in the mid to late '80's I read an article by Davis Phinney in (I think) Bicycling Magazine about how he learned to corner with the pros. After practicing his advise, I have learned to corner faster than most people so that I have to have room in front of me coming into a corner or I will run up on whoever is in front of me. It's completely the opposite of most people teach, of what most pros do and until you practice, it seems counter intuitive. I see almost nobody doing this. I will try my best to describe it to you but first, I will brag a little bit so you know I'm not just some guy that read an article.
I raced for 30 years from 1974 to 2004. I've done mountainous stage races such as Tour of Ashland, a bunch of cyclocross nationals, won some state medals on the track and did two mountain bike worlds (where I raced with Davis Phinney) including Mammoth Mt. Kamikaze downhills where my best speed was 55 mph.
Here is the technique:
Weight the outside pedal but not totally. How much will come with practice. The saddle should press against the inside of your outside leg.
Do NOT hang your inside knee out like the motorcycle road racers do! Instead, press it into the top tube to stabilize yourself against the bike.
Don't lean the bike into the turn. Hold it out away from the turn as upright as you can, steering instead of leaning. This is accomplished by getting real low over the bars and leaning your upper body into the turn. Point your nose into the turn and almost stiff arm the outside handlebar. In other words, push the bar away from your upper body.
If you start to slide, you can turn into the slide to correct it.
About that Tour of Ashland, it was before I learned to corner and I was somewhere behind the main field going down Dead Indian Road as fast as I dared. On the right was big rocks and the left was sky. No guard rail. If I touched the gravel shoulder, death was a real possibility. Suddenly, Robert Burney and 2 or 3 other guys passed me going way faster. (no speedo in those days) I accelerated to join the groupetto figuring if they could do it, I could do it. I followed them through one corner and got so scared I would go into the cliff, I had to let them go. Now that Davis has showed me how to corner, I feel I could descend with anybody.
One more thing: I work on a lot of bikes and 99% of the time I see rear brakes wearing out 3 times faster than front brakes. This indicates flawed braking technique. I suggest if you are right handed, you may want your front brake hooked up to the right lever. That's another story.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bradley Heintz
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Looking for tips on how to best distribute weight to corner on a road bike. Any good articles out there? Coming from a mountain bike background and always considered myself a pretty good descenter until I road my new road bike with a group of racers. They (we) descended as a group - meaning there was someone right next to me as I negotiated a tight turn at high speed . I found having my line dictated by the group unnerving. I slipped to the back of the group then spent the next 5 miles tying to catch up!

The problem was that I kept finding myself halfway through the corner leaning with a certain turn radius only to find the corner got sharper. I found myself unable to get my body weight to lean harder to make the turn gracefully. Not to mention I found myslef unwilling to lean my body any further into the corner for fear of sliding out my wheels if I encountered gravel.

I read that an effective method for sharp cornering at speed is to put the weight on the outside foot and lean the bike underneath the rider. The rider remains upright while the bike is leaned over. I tried it and found it very effective for transitioning body weight into the corners. Even when the corner got progressively tighter I could lean the bike as much as needed. Plus my weight remained more upright allowing me to recover in the event of an emergency. (Like when rounding a blind corner to find a car partially in my lane.) Before I celebrate, thought I?d run this by experienced descenters to make sure I?m not setting myself up for a nasty fall.

Cheers,

Bradley

---------------------------------

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Dan H

Bradley,
I'm not a coach and I'm sure many knowledgeable cyclists will disagree with what I'm going to tell you. I'm confident enough I'm going to put it to the list so less experienced riders can benefit.
Back in the mid to late '80's I read an article by Davis Phinney in (I think) Bicycling Magazine about how he learned to corner with the pros. After practicing his advise, I have learned to corner faster than most people so that I have to have room in front of me coming into a corner or I will run up on whoever is in front of me. It's completely the opposite of most people teach, of what most pros do and until you practice, it seems counter intuitive. I see almost nobody doing this. I will try my best to describe it to you but first, I will brag a little bit so you know I'm not just some guy that read an article.
I raced for 30 years from 1974 to 2004. I've done mountainous stage races such as Tour of Ashland, a bunch of cyclocross nationals, won some state medals on the track and did two mountain bike worlds (where I raced with Davis Phinney) including Mammoth Mt. Kamikaze downhills where my best speed was 55 mph.
Here is the technique:
Weight the outside pedal but not totally. How much will come with practice. The saddle should press against the inside of your outside leg.
Do NOT hang your inside knee out like the motorcycle road racers do! Instead, press it into the top tube to stabilize yourself against the bike.
Don't lean the bike into the turn. Hold it out away from the turn as upright as you can, steering instead of leaning. This is accomplished by getting real low over the bars and leaning your upper body into the turn. Point your nose into the turn and almost stiff arm the outside handlebar. In other words, push the bar away from your upper body.
If you start to slide, you can turn into the slide to correct it.
About that Tour of Ashland, it was before I learned to corner and I was somewhere behind the main field going down Dead Indian Road as fast as I dared. On the right was big rocks and the left was sky. No guard rail. If I touched the gravel shoulder, death was a real possibility. Suddenly, Robert Burney and 2 or 3 other guys passed me going way faster. (no speedo in those days) I accelerated to join the groupetto figuring if they could do it, I could do it. I followed them through one corner and got so scared I would go into the cliff, I had to let them go. Now that Davis has showed me how to corner, I feel I could descend with anybody.
One more thing: I work on a lot of bikes and 99% of the time I see rear brakes wearing out 3 times faster than front brakes. This indicates flawed braking technique. I suggest if you are right handed, you may want your front brake hooked up to the right lever. That's another story.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bradley Heintz
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tips for Cornering on a Road Bike

Looking for tips on how to best distribute weight to corner on a road bike. Any good articles out there? Coming from a mountain bike background and always considered myself a pretty good descenter until I road my new road bike with a group of racers. They (we) descended as a group - meaning there was someone right next to me as I negotiated a tight turn at high speed . I found having my line dictated by the group unnerving. I slipped to the back of the group then spent the next 5 miles tying to catch up!

The problem was that I kept finding myself halfway through the corner leaning with a certain turn radius only to find the corner got sharper. I found myself unable to get my body weight to lean harder to make the turn gracefully. Not to mention I found myslef unwilling to lean my body any further into the corner for fear of sliding out my wheels if I encountered gravel.

I read that an effective method for sharp cornering at speed is to put the weight on the outside foot and lean the bike underneath the rider. The rider remains upright while the bike is leaned over. I tried it and found it very effective for transitioning body weight into the corners. Even when the corner got progressively tighter I could lean the bike as much as needed. Plus my weight remained more upright allowing me to recover in the event of an emergency. (Like when rounding a blind corner to find a car partially in my lane.) Before I celebrate, thought I'd run this by experienced descenters to make sure I'm not setting myself up for a nasty fall.

Cheers,

Bradley

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Bradley Heintz

Looking for tips on how to best distribute weight to corner on a road
bike. Any good articles out there? Coming from a mountain bike
background and always considered myself a pretty good descenter until I
road my new road bike with a group of racers. They (we) descended as a
group - meaning there was someone right next to me as I negotiated a
tight turn at high speed . I found having my line dictated by the group
unnerving. I slipped to the back of the group then spent the next 5
miles tying to catch up!

The problem was that I kept finding myself halfway through the corner
leaning with a certain turn radius only to find the corner got sharper.
I found myself unable to get my body weight to lean harder to make the
turn gracefully. Not to mention I found myslef unwilling to lean my body
any further into the corner for fear of sliding out my wheels if I
encountered gravel.

I read that an effective method for sharp cornering at speed is to put
the weight on the outside foot and lean the bike underneath the rider.
The rider remains upright while the bike is leaned over. I tried it and
found it very effective for transitioning body weight into the corners.
Even when the corner got progressively tighter I could lean the bike as
much as needed. Plus my weight remained more upright allowing me to
recover in the event of an emergency. (Like when rounding a blind corner
to find a car partially in my lane.) Before I celebrate, thought I'd
run this by experienced descenters to make sure I'm not setting myself
up for a nasty fall.

Cheers,

Bradley