Mark J. Ginsberg

Jerry Implied it, but one of the advantages to cornering this way, is the lovely wet weather power slide. If your wheels slip you and your bike slide together towards the outside of the turn with your bike staying upright, contrasted with leaning through a turn where if your wheels slip to get to post to obra chat about a good place to buy tegaderm.

I don't turn this way all the time, but rainy descents are a good place for it.

not I ain't any level coach, but guys like Jerry and Robert taught this to me in Lake Placid in the mid-1990's

but like Jerry I do run my brakes "backwards"

Mark Ginsberg

Jerald M Powell wrote: Larry, I beg to differ somewhat. Dan had it right. But it wasn't just
an article in Bicycling Magazine... and it was the "counterintuitive"
cornering that "Bird" was teaching. Robert Burney and I were his
assistant coaches in the Bicycling Magazine "Cycling Skills" clinics.
The clinic format and pedigogy were developed by the USCF coaching
staff for Bicycling and the USCF regional coaches (Beckman was the
West Regional Coach at the time).

So, OK, step one is that you look through the corner (eyes up). Set
up to take advantage of the "fast" line through the corner...
generally the one with the most radius, although you have to take into
account how quickly you can get the bike upright enough to pedal.
Next is a weight shift (subtile or decisive, depending on how radical
your entry into the turn is); weight the outside pedal, move the nose
of your saddle to the inside of your OUTSIDE thigh, square your
shoulders and hips to the outlet of the turn (note that this puts your
torso, and hence most of your body weight, "inside" of the centerline
of the bicycle), stay off the brakes, start pedaling as soon as your
pedals will clear the road.

You'll notice several things. because your turn isn't dependent on
the angle of the bike to the road, you'll have more flexibility to
change your line of accommodate another rider of a change in road
surface (ie, a bit of gravel will cause your tire patch to slip a bit
but your body will follow it sideways rather than your tires lifting
off immediately (Larry, it's like keeping a flat ski... Angulation
will get you a terrific "carve" but you can bring the knees up out of
the turn to "feather" it... you can't do that on a bike).

The counter-steered turn, mentioned by Danny and advocated by Larry
will work fine, but I'd avoid relying on it. It may be faster under
some specific circumstances (short radius turn, dry road, even road
surface, no gravel), the chances are good that the "steered" turn (as
described above) will be faster and allow more freedom to correct
error or circumstance. it's thus safer.

Both Larry and Danny have mentioned brakes... and both are right.
There's little reason to use them, and if you really need to brake,
the front one is the one that does the work. (And yes, I still have
my front brake under my right hand... like the way that european bikes
were set up in bygone days... drives bike mechanics nuts)

And yes, I am a level 1 USAC coach.

Jerry

On May 7, 2008, at 4:07 PM, VeloSki Sports wrote:

> Hey Dan H. and other old guys....good to see your names in print...
>
> I agree that there are numerous descending techniques and tactics.
> Note:
> technique and tactics are a bit different. Technique is a set of
> skills
> that allow for a predictable outcome; while, tactics is the
> selection of the
> most appropriate technique and skill for a given situation. Perhaps
> the
> most important consideration is selecting your line thru the corner
> and then
> applying only enough braking to make it around the corner. The
> later you
> apply the brakes the more speed you carry into the corner and
> consequently
> the greater your exit speed.
>
> Some of you may remember Karl Maxon from the mid-80's and early
> 90's. We
> used to ride together a lot back in those days and tell stories of our
> racing adventures and exploits. For a time he rode with Sean Yates
> in the
> European peleton. Apparently, Sean was an amazing descender and
> Karl told
> me of a technique similar to the one Davis wrote about, but many years
> before Davis wrote that article. I also rode with Andy Hampsten in
> the Alps
> a few times and we explored similar techniques for tighter turns. In
> addition, John Beckman (Beckbird) used to conduct coaching clinics
> where we
> explored the counterintuitive technique of pushing the bike away and
> upright
> while steering the bike thru corners on grass and gravel. And then
> there is
> the Auker method of descending whereby David would drop his butt
> back over
> his rear wheel and stretch his arms to reach the bars, thus
> achieving a
> hyper-aero position for straight-line descending.
>
> Fundament physics dictates that you have a finite amount of friction
> available to keep your skinny tires rolling along your direction of
> travel.
> You can choose to spend from your friction account for acceleration,
> deceleration or cornering. Braking in the middle of a turn is a sure
> invitation to overdraw your friction account and skid off course,
> unless it
> is done very smoothly and progressively while adjusting your turn
> radius to
> allow the wheels to continue rolling. If you should over-apply the
> brake
> and lock up the wheels for even a split second, then you may find
> yourself
> careening in unintended directions. In brief, brake in a straight
> line,
> then lay the bike over or guide the bike into the turn using dynamic
> balancing moves as described below.
>
>> From my experience there are a few basic approaches to fast
>> descending as
> follows:
> 1) hold on loosely, but don't let go --- help your bike find it's
> own way
> thru the corners, the bike does not want to crash; it is always you
> who
> causes the crash
> 2) guide the front wheel where it needs to go and let the rest
> follow ---
> the gyroscopic effect of the wheel allows a lot of counterintuitive
> actions
> to work to your advantage. (press the inside hand forward and
> square your
> hips with your direction of intended travel for tight turns)
> 3) counter-steer and angulate (ala...giant slalom turns in skiing)
> for big
> sweeper turns...this reduces the side load on your tires, thus saving
> traction for higher speed cornering
> 4) above all else...look for the exit to every turn with your eyes,
> assess
> the road surfaces where you are aiming your bike while keeping your
> head
> upright and level to improve your balance and ability to react to
> information you collect. This will allow you more time to make
> necessary
> changes.
>
> Today, I guide bike tours in the French, Swiss, Italian and Austrian
> Alps
> for a living and have 1000's of kilometers of descending experience
> each
> season down roads much tighter and steeper than the typical roads
> found
> around the states of Oregon or Washington. So, go out to your favorite
> twisty road near your house and try different approaches to the same
> corners
> and combination of corners to become comfortable with the range of
> techniques that will allow you to descend with confidence and grace.
>
> Keep riding and smiling....
>
> Larry Smith
> VeloSki Sports
> www.veloski.com
> tours@veloski.com
>
> btw...I'm pretty sure that I was leading Robert on that descent,
> since both
> Robert and I always ended up riding together after getting dropped
> by the
> main group (Ashland Stage Race was a training race for our respective
> programs). And I always rode with a 54t front ring to maximize my
> descending skills, while everyone else rode a 52t or 53t.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mark J. Ginsberg
Attorney At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

---------------------------------
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David Auker

Larry, Great to see your Velo-iffic words!

VeloSki Sports wrote:

> And then there is
> the Auker method of descending whereby David would drop his butt back over
> his rear wheel and stretch his arms to reach the bars, thus achieving a
> hyper-aero position for straight-line descending.
I learned that from Bill Hawley. It's as fast as anything, but Tom
Ritchey had a style that was just as fast: With body teardrop-compacted,
his hands in "prayer shape" gently placed on either side of stem, he
would amazingly hold this seemingly unstable position even as the road
curved, whereas I would regain a normal position....and he would be gone!

These days I'm almost entirely riding fixed-gear, and descents are more
about controlling speed with legs, than the eye-popping speed...it's a
compromise to pay for some otherwise cool feelings!

David

> Hey Dan H. and other old guys....good to see your names in print...
>
> I agree that there are numerous descending techniques and tactics. Note:
> technique and tactics are a bit different. Technique is a set of skills
> that allow for a predictable outcome; while, tactics is the selection of the
> most appropriate technique and skill for a given situation. Perhaps the
> most important consideration is selecting your line thru the corner and then
> applying only enough braking to make it around the corner. The later you
> apply the brakes the more speed you carry into the corner and consequently
> the greater your exit speed.
>
> Some of you may remember Karl Maxon from the mid-80's and early 90's. We
> used to ride together a lot back in those days and tell stories of our
> racing adventures and exploits. For a time he rode with Sean Yates in the
> European peleton. Apparently, Sean was an amazing descender and Karl told
> me of a technique similar to the one Davis wrote about, but many years
> before Davis wrote that article. I also rode with Andy Hampsten in the Alps
> a few times and we explored similar techniques for tighter turns. In
> addition, John Beckman (Beckbird) used to conduct coaching clinics where we
> explored the counterintuitive technique of pushing the bike away and upright
> while steering the bike thru corners on grass and gravel. And then there is
> the Auker method of descending whereby David would drop his butt back over
> his rear wheel and stretch his arms to reach the bars, thus achieving a
> hyper-aero position for straight-line descending.
>
> Fundament physics dictates that you have a finite amount of friction
> available to keep your skinny tires rolling along your direction of travel.
> You can choose to spend from your friction account for acceleration,
> deceleration or cornering. Braking in the middle of a turn is a sure
> invitation to overdraw your friction account and skid off course, unless it
> is done very smoothly and progressively while adjusting your turn radius to
> allow the wheels to continue rolling. If you should over-apply the brake
> and lock up the wheels for even a split second, then you may find yourself
> careening in unintended directions. In brief, brake in a straight line,
> then lay the bike over or guide the bike into the turn using dynamic
> balancing moves as described below.
>
> >From my experience there are a few basic approaches to fast descending as
> follows:
> 1) hold on loosely, but don't let go --- help your bike find it's own way
> thru the corners, the bike does not want to crash; it is always you who
> causes the crash
> 2) guide the front wheel where it needs to go and let the rest follow ---
> the gyroscopic effect of the wheel allows a lot of counterintuitive actions
> to work to your advantage. (press the inside hand forward and square your
> hips with your direction of intended travel for tight turns)
> 3) counter-steer and angulate (ala...giant slalom turns in skiing) for big
> sweeper turns...this reduces the side load on your tires, thus saving
> traction for higher speed cornering
> 4) above all else...look for the exit to every turn with your eyes, assess
> the road surfaces where you are aiming your bike while keeping your head
> upright and level to improve your balance and ability to react to
> information you collect. This will allow you more time to make necessary
> changes.
>
> Today, I guide bike tours in the French, Swiss, Italian and Austrian Alps
> for a living and have 1000's of kilometers of descending experience each
> season down roads much tighter and steeper than the typical roads found
> around the states of Oregon or Washington. So, go out to your favorite
> twisty road near your house and try different approaches to the same corners
> and combination of corners to become comfortable with the range of
> techniques that will allow you to descend with confidence and grace.
>
> Keep riding and smiling....
>
> Larry Smith
> VeloSki Sports
> www.veloski.com
> tours@veloski.com
>
> btw...I'm pretty sure that I was leading Robert on that descent, since both
> Robert and I always ended up riding together after getting dropped by the
> main group (Ashland Stage Race was a training race for our respective
> programs). And I always rode with a 54t front ring to maximize my
> descending skills, while everyone else rode a 52t or 53t.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>

Jerald M Powell

Larry, I beg to differ somewhat. Dan had it right. But it wasn't just
an article in Bicycling Magazine... and it was the "counterintuitive"
cornering that "Bird" was teaching. Robert Burney and I were his
assistant coaches in the Bicycling Magazine "Cycling Skills" clinics.
The clinic format and pedigogy were developed by the USCF coaching
staff for Bicycling and the USCF regional coaches (Beckman was the
West Regional Coach at the time).

So, OK, step one is that you look through the corner (eyes up). Set
up to take advantage of the "fast" line through the corner...
generally the one with the most radius, although you have to take into
account how quickly you can get the bike upright enough to pedal.
Next is a weight shift (subtile or decisive, depending on how radical
your entry into the turn is); weight the outside pedal, move the nose
of your saddle to the inside of your OUTSIDE thigh, square your
shoulders and hips to the outlet of the turn (note that this puts your
torso, and hence most of your body weight, "inside" of the centerline
of the bicycle), stay off the brakes, start pedaling as soon as your
pedals will clear the road.

You'll notice several things. because your turn isn't dependent on
the angle of the bike to the road, you'll have more flexibility to
change your line of accommodate another rider of a change in road
surface (ie, a bit of gravel will cause your tire patch to slip a bit
but your body will follow it sideways rather than your tires lifting
off immediately (Larry, it's like keeping a flat ski... Angulation
will get you a terrific "carve" but you can bring the knees up out of
the turn to "feather" it... you can't do that on a bike).

The counter-steered turn, mentioned by Danny and advocated by Larry
will work fine, but I'd avoid relying on it. It may be faster under
some specific circumstances (short radius turn, dry road, even road
surface, no gravel), the chances are good that the "steered" turn (as
described above) will be faster and allow more freedom to correct
error or circumstance. it's thus safer.

Both Larry and Danny have mentioned brakes... and both are right.
There's little reason to use them, and if you really need to brake,
the front one is the one that does the work. (And yes, I still have
my front brake under my right hand... like the way that european bikes
were set up in bygone days... drives bike mechanics nuts)

And yes, I am a level 1 USAC coach.

Jerry

On May 7, 2008, at 4:07 PM, VeloSki Sports wrote:

> Hey Dan H. and other old guys....good to see your names in print...
>
> I agree that there are numerous descending techniques and tactics.
> Note:
> technique and tactics are a bit different. Technique is a set of
> skills
> that allow for a predictable outcome; while, tactics is the
> selection of the
> most appropriate technique and skill for a given situation. Perhaps
> the
> most important consideration is selecting your line thru the corner
> and then
> applying only enough braking to make it around the corner. The
> later you
> apply the brakes the more speed you carry into the corner and
> consequently
> the greater your exit speed.
>
> Some of you may remember Karl Maxon from the mid-80's and early
> 90's. We
> used to ride together a lot back in those days and tell stories of our
> racing adventures and exploits. For a time he rode with Sean Yates
> in the
> European peleton. Apparently, Sean was an amazing descender and
> Karl told
> me of a technique similar to the one Davis wrote about, but many years
> before Davis wrote that article. I also rode with Andy Hampsten in
> the Alps
> a few times and we explored similar techniques for tighter turns. In
> addition, John Beckman (Beckbird) used to conduct coaching clinics
> where we
> explored the counterintuitive technique of pushing the bike away and
> upright
> while steering the bike thru corners on grass and gravel. And then
> there is
> the Auker method of descending whereby David would drop his butt
> back over
> his rear wheel and stretch his arms to reach the bars, thus
> achieving a
> hyper-aero position for straight-line descending.
>
> Fundament physics dictates that you have a finite amount of friction
> available to keep your skinny tires rolling along your direction of
> travel.
> You can choose to spend from your friction account for acceleration,
> deceleration or cornering. Braking in the middle of a turn is a sure
> invitation to overdraw your friction account and skid off course,
> unless it
> is done very smoothly and progressively while adjusting your turn
> radius to
> allow the wheels to continue rolling. If you should over-apply the
> brake
> and lock up the wheels for even a split second, then you may find
> yourself
> careening in unintended directions. In brief, brake in a straight
> line,
> then lay the bike over or guide the bike into the turn using dynamic
> balancing moves as described below.
>
>> From my experience there are a few basic approaches to fast
>> descending as
> follows:
> 1) hold on loosely, but don't let go --- help your bike find it's
> own way
> thru the corners, the bike does not want to crash; it is always you
> who
> causes the crash
> 2) guide the front wheel where it needs to go and let the rest
> follow ---
> the gyroscopic effect of the wheel allows a lot of counterintuitive
> actions
> to work to your advantage. (press the inside hand forward and
> square your
> hips with your direction of intended travel for tight turns)
> 3) counter-steer and angulate (ala...giant slalom turns in skiing)
> for big
> sweeper turns...this reduces the side load on your tires, thus saving
> traction for higher speed cornering
> 4) above all else...look for the exit to every turn with your eyes,
> assess
> the road surfaces where you are aiming your bike while keeping your
> head
> upright and level to improve your balance and ability to react to
> information you collect. This will allow you more time to make
> necessary
> changes.
>
> Today, I guide bike tours in the French, Swiss, Italian and Austrian
> Alps
> for a living and have 1000's of kilometers of descending experience
> each
> season down roads much tighter and steeper than the typical roads
> found
> around the states of Oregon or Washington. So, go out to your favorite
> twisty road near your house and try different approaches to the same
> corners
> and combination of corners to become comfortable with the range of
> techniques that will allow you to descend with confidence and grace.
>
> Keep riding and smiling....
>
> Larry Smith
> VeloSki Sports
> www.veloski.com
> tours@veloski.com
>
> btw...I'm pretty sure that I was leading Robert on that descent,
> since both
> Robert and I always ended up riding together after getting dropped
> by the
> main group (Ashland Stage Race was a training race for our respective
> programs). And I always rode with a 54t front ring to maximize my
> descending skills, while everyone else rode a 52t or 53t.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

VeloSki Sports

Hey Dan H. and other old guys....good to see your names in print...

I agree that there are numerous descending techniques and tactics. Note:
technique and tactics are a bit different. Technique is a set of skills
that allow for a predictable outcome; while, tactics is the selection of the
most appropriate technique and skill for a given situation. Perhaps the
most important consideration is selecting your line thru the corner and then
applying only enough braking to make it around the corner. The later you
apply the brakes the more speed you carry into the corner and consequently
the greater your exit speed.

Some of you may remember Karl Maxon from the mid-80's and early 90's. We
used to ride together a lot back in those days and tell stories of our
racing adventures and exploits. For a time he rode with Sean Yates in the
European peleton. Apparently, Sean was an amazing descender and Karl told
me of a technique similar to the one Davis wrote about, but many years
before Davis wrote that article. I also rode with Andy Hampsten in the Alps
a few times and we explored similar techniques for tighter turns. In
addition, John Beckman (Beckbird) used to conduct coaching clinics where we
explored the counterintuitive technique of pushing the bike away and upright
while steering the bike thru corners on grass and gravel. And then there is
the Auker method of descending whereby David would drop his butt back over
his rear wheel and stretch his arms to reach the bars, thus achieving a
hyper-aero position for straight-line descending.

Fundament physics dictates that you have a finite amount of friction
available to keep your skinny tires rolling along your direction of travel.
You can choose to spend from your friction account for acceleration,
deceleration or cornering. Braking in the middle of a turn is a sure
invitation to overdraw your friction account and skid off course, unless it
is done very smoothly and progressively while adjusting your turn radius to
allow the wheels to continue rolling. If you should over-apply the brake
and lock up the wheels for even a split second, then you may find yourself
careening in unintended directions. In brief, brake in a straight line,
then lay the bike over or guide the bike into the turn using dynamic
balancing moves as described below.

From my experience there are a few basic approaches to fast descending as
follows:
1) hold on loosely, but don't let go --- help your bike find it's own way
thru the corners, the bike does not want to crash; it is always you who
causes the crash
2) guide the front wheel where it needs to go and let the rest follow ---
the gyroscopic effect of the wheel allows a lot of counterintuitive actions
to work to your advantage. (press the inside hand forward and square your
hips with your direction of intended travel for tight turns)
3) counter-steer and angulate (ala...giant slalom turns in skiing) for big
sweeper turns...this reduces the side load on your tires, thus saving
traction for higher speed cornering
4) above all else...look for the exit to every turn with your eyes, assess
the road surfaces where you are aiming your bike while keeping your head
upright and level to improve your balance and ability to react to
information you collect. This will allow you more time to make necessary
changes.

Today, I guide bike tours in the French, Swiss, Italian and Austrian Alps
for a living and have 1000's of kilometers of descending experience each
season down roads much tighter and steeper than the typical roads found
around the states of Oregon or Washington. So, go out to your favorite
twisty road near your house and try different approaches to the same corners
and combination of corners to become comfortable with the range of
techniques that will allow you to descend with confidence and grace.

Keep riding and smiling....

Larry Smith
VeloSki Sports
www.veloski.com
tours@veloski.com

btw...I'm pretty sure that I was leading Robert on that descent, since both
Robert and I always ended up riding together after getting dropped by the
main group (Ashland Stage Race was a training race for our respective
programs). And I always rode with a 54t front ring to maximize my
descending skills, while everyone else rode a 52t or 53t.