Patrick wilder

I've been using the new Stans's tubless kit with the Hutchinson Tubeless Road tires. The ride quality is amazing. Specifically I like to ride some gravel roads and rough roads, so it seems to work quite well there. Quite a few people used this with success at the Eugene Roubaix and did not flat.

The kit is: Stans yellow strip, stans goop, Valve and the Hutchinson Tubeless Road Tires.


Ok so here's the bad with the good. I was heading out HW 30 Wednesday (can you honestly think of a worse stretch of road in Oregon to test tyres). I heard a click, click, click and looked down right as I heard BOOM!!!! Instantly I'm on the rim pissing myself.

I picked up a huge staple of some sort. Concerning to me was that the when the tyre blew it blew off the rim. The other concern was that when I put a tube in the bead had been broken and eventually it blew out and I was calling the broom wagon.

The debate is still out whether it was the force of blowing off the rim that broke the bead or if the staple went in sideways and weakened the bead and when I put the tube and pumped it up it finished off the bead.

With all this said, I'm not sure this being tubeless had anything to do with it. A clincher with a tube could have just as easily done the samething. Prior to that for a month I had gone with no flats and great ride quality.

Ride safe

will wrote:
Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and cutting it in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and going from there.

I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it holding air well? what's the seal like?...)
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~Patrick
www.pwildertherapy.com

Chris Brandt

I haven't, but I know Kelly Ryan has been doing it (ghetto style, sliced tube method) for several years in CX. He used to swear by it, but I have no experience personally.

Just to clarify what you are calling the "ghetto tubeless" conversion, it is to split a 20" presta tube lengthwise along the outside of the tube, stretched onto the rim, and laid open across the entire rim bed. You mount the tire like usual, w/ rubber tube between tire bead and rim hook, then carefully trim the excess tube that is poking outside the rim after inflation. Sealant must be added prior to inflating, or afterwards through the valve if you have a removable core. Some folks build up the rim bed w/ a couple layers of velox cloth tape, or other types of tape, effectively mimicking the thickness of a notubes rubber rim strip.

I have converted several wheels to tubeless, both MTB and CX. The stan's rims hold the tires on best. I converted some DT Swiss mtb wheels by sealing up the spoke holes in the rim bed w/ three layers of clear threaded packing tape. That setup is currently working well. At the valve hole in the rim, I placed a piece of insta-patch material (glueless patch) to make a nice rubbery zone, prior to slicing a "x" shaped hole in that spot. I made my own "stans" style valve by cutting the valve out of an old tube. I left enough rubber around the base to seal up, but not interfere w/ the bead zone. The little threaded lock washer that comes on all presta tubes works to clamp it down solid. It may help to dab the base of the tube in grease or some stans liquid prior to clamping it down.

It should air right up just like any other standard tubeless procedure. Especially if you take the time to use the "thick dishsoapy foam" method that Notubes.com recommends.

All you really need to purchase is the liquid sealant. Using the reasonably priced Stan's rubber rim strip can help ensure more failsafe results, but no guarantee that you won't burp. What it essentially does is build up from the rim bed w/ some rubbery material, which makes a tighter fit at the tire bead/rim interface. Basically, there is no place for the bead to shift, since it's tighter. When you burp, your tire generally gets knocked away from the rim, either vertically or laterally, allowing for a "burp" of air to escape. (That dramatic reduction of air pressure could be 10-20 psi in a fraction of a second, and greatly reduce your bike handling or take you down.) The rubber strip helps w/ prevention of the vertical movement. Rubber-on-rubber seals up a bit better too than rubber-on-metal. Thus, once you use soapy suds, you could probably seal up a tire w/o any sealant, assuming the sidewall doesn't leak.

My personal opinion is that having a tube material all the way up along the inside wall of the rim, between the metal of the rim and the rubber of the tire bead would not allow for as tight of an interface, and be more likely to burp. Seems like having a flexible medium between those two materials wouldn't be as solid. Again, I haven't tried it out though. Also, I think you'd have a harder time adding more of the mandatory "periodic refreshment" of sealant liquid, unless you trimmed down another tube each time, or used a tube w/ a removable valve core.

It can't hurt to experiment, but be prepared to discover some surprises along the way. Also, as with anything, your results may vary, so choose your own adventure! My recommendation is to save yourself a headache and either buy a Stan's rim, or use their reasonably priced rubber rimstrip. It is proven to work well.

john

If you use velo plugs or fabric based strapping tape in or over the holes, then just plain old vinyl electricians tape over them works fine. just keep in mind vinyl tape has no strength only seals...

For road wheels, I have found you kind of need a tubeless specific tire. Ie well only hutchinson makes one.

You don't need the tubeless specific shimano wheel / rim, but the following is sort of good to have:
-high quality rim, welded. (its hard to get a pinned rim to seal at the joint)
-the bead has to be near perfect (thus the high quality rim) especially at the weld joint.
- getting the presta valve to work is a little tricky. I cut out from an old tube. It helps if the hole in the rim is a smaller diameter... The tire bead has to fit on either side, yet it has to seal well, and not pull through the hole...
-helps to get the bead wet soapy.. and an air compresser to seat the bead ....
Held air all night. a full "tire pinch" on a sharp corner no air leaked. I haven't ridden it yet though.

I reccomend testing the rim first before building it into a wheel. although you can always use a tube with it..

I have also tried a normal road tire. Like others i have found that they are more porous then one would expect. sealant does work but not if the tire is too porous or not if the bead is not soft rubber... and kevlar bead probably will not work.

The reason is the pressure goes up to the point where the seal is. So that means the pressure is actually back in behind the bead up to the hook. With a tube , since the tube can't squeeze into that tiny gap, the pressure is Not up and behind the tire bead..

So with a tube, the pressure keeps the tire pushed up against the rim hook and the tire won't come off (jobst brandt many years ago demonstrated or had it demonstrated that even cutting the tire bead in numerous places, the tire will not blow off the rim). [although i had a cheap alex rim and kevlar beaded tires would blow off at about 120 psi.. the hook was not properly made]

But with a tubeless, the pressure is more equalized on either side of the tire bead, and so it will pop off much easier. yes although i knew this in theory I still had to try... i got a normal tire to hold air at about 80 psi, and as i was about to try 100 psi, it went through my brain to maybe put on a face shield... Yes i got fairly well covered with tire sealant.

You could probably get a steel bead to work, as long as the sealing bead was smooth soft rubber, and you didn't run too much pressure. i might experiment with cross tires.. The biggest issue with non-tubeless specific tire is to get the beads to seat. I do think it is impossible with some tires. and no i am not going to use the hairspray or starting fluid with a match trick.

The tubeless tires have a carbon fiber bead, which is alot stiffer then kevlar and also stiffer then steel. The bead is design a little sharper and a little stiffer too.. And the tire carcass flex is such that the tire bead seats easy.

Brian Engelen wrote:
What's the address? Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Eric Kytola
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:25 AM
To: will; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Anyone try out "Ghetto Tubeless" yet?

check out Zach Winter's blog about using window flashing tape. i just
found it this week but i am totally trying it out.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of will
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:04 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Anyone try out "Ghetto Tubeless" yet?

Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you
don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and
cutting it in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and
going from there.

I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it
holding air well? what's the seal like?...)
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john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

Erik Voldengen

I've heard that works, but my problem with it is there is no precision
to the application. Stans seems to be saying to try X layers of tape,
and if that fails, try another. Stuff like that doesn't instill
confidence, at least for me.

I eventually decided that the only duplicable and reliable solution
was to use Stan's rims, which have a unique bead design that locks the
tire in better.

I wrote a little about it here:
http://tinyurl.com/5vpfk8

See the "related links" for more.

Good luck with the Ghetto setup. If you intend to use this for
cyclocross, I'd start my trials soon, because it might take a long
time to get it reliable and trustworthy.

-Erik

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 9:04 AM, will wrote:
> Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and cutting it in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and going from there.
>
> I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it holding air well? what's the seal like?...)
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Brian Engelen

I use Stan's rims and sealant and it's great on the MTB. However, I
wouldn't try just rim strips or any of the dozen ways of taping your rim.
Instant air loss and the tire coming off the rim are my big worry.
Especially on the front if you hit it sideways. They (Macho DIY'ers) call
this burping.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of will
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:04 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Anyone try out "Ghetto Tubeless" yet?

Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you don't
know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and cutting it
in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and going from
there.

I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it
holding air well? what's the seal like?...)

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David Saltzberg

As interesting of a method as it may seem, be aware that Grace Vycor and
most flexible flashing products are bituminous in nature (petroleum based).
Directly applied to the tire and tube may result in catastrophic results.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Eric Kytola
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:25 AM
To: will; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Anyone try out "Ghetto Tubeless" yet?

check out Zach Winter's blog about using window flashing tape. i just
found it this week but i am totally trying it out.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of will
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:04 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Anyone try out "Ghetto Tubeless" yet?

Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you
don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and
cutting it in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and
going from there.

I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it
holding air well? what's the seal like?...)
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Electronic Privacy Notice. This e-mail, and any attachments, contains
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Brian Engelen

What's the address? Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Eric Kytola
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:25 AM
To: will; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Anyone try out "Ghetto Tubeless" yet?

check out Zach Winter's blog about using window flashing tape. i just
found it this week but i am totally trying it out.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of will
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:04 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Anyone try out "Ghetto Tubeless" yet?

Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you
don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and
cutting it in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and
going from there.

I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it
holding air well? what's the seal like?...)
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Electronic Privacy Notice. This e-mail, and any attachments, contains
information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy
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intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from
retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this
information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have
received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank
you in advance for your cooperation.
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Eric Kytola

check out Zach Winter's blog about using window flashing tape. i just
found it this week but i am totally trying it out.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of will
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 9:04 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Anyone try out "Ghetto Tubeless" yet?

Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you
don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and
cutting it in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and
going from there.

I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it
holding air well? what's the seal like?...)
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Electronic Privacy Notice. This e-mail, and any attachments, contains information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy laws, and is also confidential and proprietary in nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Josh LeBus

I'm curious what the advantage would be to not using the the rim tape? is it
just a cost cutting measure hence the "ghetto" title? After using the
stans rim tape i was impressed with how easy it was and good the seal was.

as a former "nopo" resident i'm all for "ghettofying" and "gerry
riggin"(sp?) stuff but when it comes to tire reliability i draw the line.
i'm curious to hear the responses.

On 5/16/08, will wrote:
>
> Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you don't
> know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and cutting it
> in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and going from
> there.
>
> I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it
> holding air well? what's the seal like?...)
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

will

Has anyone in OBRA-land tried the ghetto-tubeless system yet? If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's basically using a 20" tube and cutting it in half to replace a Stans rim strip (or comparable one) and going from there.

I'd love to know if you've tried it and how it's holding out (i.e. is it holding air well? what's the seal like?...)