Oregonian Sports Front Page

Mike Murray

2008-05-23

It is my understanding that in wind tunnel testing some people will be
faster with their arms in a more flexed position and some in a more extended
position depending on the shape of the rest of their body. The presumed
reasoning behind the UCI rule (presuming that there is any reasoning) is not
to force a more or less aerodynamic conventional position but to prevent use
of the Obree Superman position. The UCI rules are rather inane since they
do not take into account any rider body measurements. When these
anti-Obree/Superman rules went into effect there was a proposal from USAC to
make allowable bike measurements dependent on measurement of rider's bodies.
This was very logical but ultimately was rejected. I have been told that
the proposal was authored by a old time Oregon bike racer, Randy Shafer.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: David Auker [mailto:davauk@hevanet.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 17:12 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page

Well, I guess rules is rules, but it seems like a trivial detail. It's
not like it would make her faster...if anything, pointing her arms down
at a greater than level angle seems like it would present more frontal
area, not enhance sleek aerodynamics. But, I'm not qualified to really
assess this!

David

Mike Murray wrote:
> The applicable UCI rule is:
> "1.3.023 For road time trial competitions and for the following track
> competitions: individual and team pursuit,
> kilometre and 500 m, an extension may be added to the steering system.
> The distance between the vertical line passing through the bottom
> bracket axle and the extremity of the handlebar
> may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article 1.3.022 (B,C,D)
> remaining
> unchanged. A support for the elbows or forearms is permitted (see diagram
> «Structure (1B)»).
> For road time trial competitions, controls or levers fixed to the
handlebar
> extension may extend
> beyond the 75 cm limit as long as they do not constitute a change of use,
> particularly that of providing
> an alternative hand position beyond the 75 cm mark.
>
> For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph,
> the distance of 75 cm may be increased to 80 cm to the extent that
> this is required for morphological reasons; «morphological reasons
> » should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of the
> rider's body parts. A
> rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a
> distance between 75 and 80
> cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents his
> licence. In such cases
> the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that
the
> angle between the forearm
> and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing position"
>
> TI expect that the deal was that angle was greater than 120°. The
> word was that it was measured inappropriately for the prologue and
> allowed so she assumed it was correct when she arrived at the TT with
> the same bike. When it was remeasured correctly it was off. Stupid
> rule anyhow. She was not penalized she was just late to the start
> because of the need to fix it.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 15:39 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
>
>
> Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt. Hood
> Cycling
> Classic.
>
http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_c
> las.html
> (also at:)
> http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
> Action photo!
>
> Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled down too
> far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly trying to thwart
> the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight in handlebar
> adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?
>
> =David
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1460 - Release Date: 5/22/2008
7:06 AM
>


Mark J. Ginsberg

2008-05-22

okay, maybe I (to misuse a word) over-remembered. To wit, NYT article by Sam Abt: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEFDA1139F937A15754C0A96F948260

Ginsberg

Clark Ritchie wrote: > uh, poor Fignon, when people tell that story, they always leave out
> that he got off his bike a few times b/c of saddle sores while lemond
> had a great ride of his life.

I was there that day in 1989. It was a truly epic moment, I'll never forget it. But not once have I ever heard that the Professor got off his bike during the TT. It was mano y mano. It was amazing.

--Clark

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Mark J. Ginsberg
Attorney At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com


Craig D

2008-05-22

Clark Ritchie wrote:
>> uh, poor Fignon, when people tell that story, they always leave out
>> that he got off his bike a few times b/c of saddle sores while lemond
>> had a great ride of his life.
>
> I was there that day in 1989. It was a truly epic moment, I'll never
> forget it. But not once have I ever heard that the Professor got off
> his bike during the TT. It was mano y mano. It was amazing.
Figon was third (at 58sec) in that TT so I don't think he was walking.
Craig

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Clark Ritchie

2008-05-22

> uh, poor Fignon, when people tell that story, they always leave out
> that he got off his bike a few times b/c of saddle sores while lemond
> had a great ride of his life.

I was there that day in 1989. It was a truly epic moment, I'll never forget
it. But not once have I ever heard that the Professor got off his bike
during the TT. It was mano y mano. It was amazing.

--Clark


David Auker

2008-05-22

Did he really get off, during the TT?

(Another famous TT story is Pedro Delgado's TdF prologue start, where he
was over 2.5 minutes LATE for his start...kinda skimpy thinking for the
defending champion...)

David

Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
> uh, poor Fignon, when people tell that story, they always leave out
> that he got off his bike a few times b/c of saddle sores while lemond
> had a great ride of his life.
>
> */"Darell C. Provencher" /* wrote:
>
> If I remember right, in 1989 when Le Professeur (Fignon) raced the
> last stage TT into Paris, he actually used cow horn bars and a
> front disc, so he probably had less stability in steering and
> perhaps was catching more air in the chest than if he had been
> down in the drops of regular road bars. On the mental side, if I
> remember right, Lemond also refused to get any split times from
> his support crew, while Fignon did. Lemond won the GC by 8
> seconds. And I think it was the fastest individual TT in TDF
> history until Zabriskie broke it (on a carbon fiber bike (not
> steel) and carbon wheels -- maybe 4-5 lbs lighter)? Was that 2005?
>
> DP
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:16 PM, David Auker > wrote:
>
> Here is a photo of Longo's position:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=/photos/2008/may08/mthood08/mthood081/2008_MtHood-W01_01
> (same as:)
> http://tinyurl.com/42l3fb
>
> I think her little bar-angle detail was a ways away from
> turning into
> Obree's Superman position, but yes, you provide some history. Her
> "advantage" by that angle? Gotta have rules, though...look
> at Laurent
> Fignon on normal bars, Lemond ushering in aerobars (of course
> it might
> have been Fignon's ponytail that slowed him down...) in the
> final TT of
> the '89 TdF. Ouch!
>
> =David
>
> Brian L wrote:
> > In case you're interested, here is some history on the
> original "Superman"
> > position that caused this rule.
> >
> > http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/superpos.htm
> >
> >
> > -brian
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] On
> > Behalf Of David Auker
> > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:12 PM
> > To: mike.murray@obra.org
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
> >
> > Well, I guess rules is rules, but it seems like a trivial
> detail. It's
> > not like it would make her faster...if anything, pointing
> her arms down
> > at a greater than level angle seems like it would present
> more frontal
> > area, not enhance sleek aerodynamics. But, I'm not
> qualified to really
> > assess this!
> >
> > David
> >
> > Mike Murray wrote:
> >
> >> The applicable UCI rule is:
> >> "1.3.023 For road time trial competitions and for the
> following track
> >> competitions: individual and team pursuit,
> >> kilometre and 500 m, an extension may be added to the
> steering system. The
> >> distance
> >> between the vertical line passing through the bottom
> bracket axle and the
> >> extremity of the handlebar
> >> may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article
> 1.3.022 (B,C,D)
> >> remaining
> >> unchanged. A support for the elbows or forearms is
> permitted (see diagram
> >> «Structure (1B)»).
> >> For road time trial competitions, controls or levers fixed
> to the
> >>
> > handlebar
> >
> >> extension may extend
> >> beyond the 75 cm limit as long as they do not constitute a
> change of use,
> >> particularly that of providing
> >> an alternative hand position beyond the 75 cm mark.
> >>
> >> For the track and road competitions covered by the first
> paragraph, the
> >> distance of 75 cm may be
> >> increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for
> morphological
> >> reasons; «morphological reasons
> >> » should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or
> length of the
> >> rider's body parts. A
> >> rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make
> use of a
> >> distance between 75 and 80
> >> cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that
> he presents his
> >> licence. In such cases
> >> the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test:
> ensuring that
> >>
> > the
> >
> >> angle between the forearm
> >> and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a
> racing position"
> >>
> >> TI expect that the deal was that angle was greater than
> 120°. The word
> >>
> > was
> >
> >> that it was measured inappropriately for the prologue and
> allowed so she
> >> assumed it was correct when she arrived at the TT with the
> same bike.
> >>
> > When
> >
> >> it was remeasured correctly it was off. Stupid rule
> anyhow. She was not
> >> penalized she was just late to the start because of the
> need to fix it.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> ] On
> >> Behalf Of David Auker
> >> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 15:39 PM
> >> To: obra@list.obra.org
> >> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
> >>
> >>
> >> Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt.
> Hood Cycling
> >> Classic.
> >>
> >>
> >
> http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_c
> >
> >> las.html
> >> (also at:)
> >> http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
> >> Action photo!
> >>
> >> Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled
> down too
> >> far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly
> trying to thwart
> >> the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight
> in handlebar
> >> adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?
> >>
> >> =David
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Checked by AVG.
> >> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1460 - Release
> Date: 5/22/2008
> >>
> > 7:06 AM
> >
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1461 - Release
> Date: 5/22/2008 4:44 PM
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Note NEW email address is darellp@easystreet.net
> -- no longer .com
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Attorney At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1461 - Release Date: 5/22/2008 4:44 PM
>


Mark J. Ginsberg

2008-05-22

uh, poor Fignon, when people tell that story, they always leave out that he got off his bike a few times b/c of saddle sores while lemond had a great ride of his life.

"Darell C. Provencher" wrote: If I remember right, in 1989 when Le Professeur (Fignon) raced the last stage TT into Paris, he actually used cow horn bars and a front disc, so he probably had less stability in steering and perhaps was catching more air in the chest than if he had been down in the drops of regular road bars. On the mental side, if I remember right, Lemond also refused to get any split times from his support crew, while Fignon did. Lemond won the GC by 8 seconds. And I think it was the fastest individual TT in TDF history until Zabriskie broke it (on a carbon fiber bike (not steel) and carbon wheels -- maybe 4-5 lbs lighter)? Was that 2005?

DP


On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:16 PM, David Auker wrote:
Here is a photo of Longo's position:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=/photos/2008/may08/mthood08/mthood081/2008_MtHood-W01_01
(same as:)
http://tinyurl.com/42l3fb

I think her little bar-angle detail was a ways away from turning into
Obree's Superman position, but yes, you provide some history. Her
"advantage" by that angle? Gotta have rules, though...look at Laurent
Fignon on normal bars, Lemond ushering in aerobars (of course it might
have been Fignon's ponytail that slowed him down...) in the final TT of
the '89 TdF. Ouch!

=David

Brian L wrote:
> In case you're interested, here is some history on the original "Superman"
> position that caused this rule.
>
> http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/superpos.htm
>
>
> -brian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:12 PM
> To: mike.murray@obra.org
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
>
> Well, I guess rules is rules, but it seems like a trivial detail. It's
> not like it would make her faster...if anything, pointing her arms down
> at a greater than level angle seems like it would present more frontal
> area, not enhance sleek aerodynamics. But, I'm not qualified to really
> assess this!
>
> David
>
> Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> The applicable UCI rule is:
>> "1.3.023 For road time trial competitions and for the following track
>> competitions: individual and team pursuit,
>> kilometre and 500 m, an extension may be added to the steering system. The
>> distance
>> between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and the
>> extremity of the handlebar
>> may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article 1.3.022 (B,C,D)
>> remaining
>> unchanged. A support for the elbows or forearms is permitted (see diagram
>> «Structure (1B)»).
>> For road time trial competitions, controls or levers fixed to the
>>
> handlebar
>
>> extension may extend
>> beyond the 75 cm limit as long as they do not constitute a change of use,
>> particularly that of providing
>> an alternative hand position beyond the 75 cm mark.
>>
>> For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph, the
>> distance of 75 cm may be
>> increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for morphological
>> reasons; «morphological reasons
>> » should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of the
>> rider's body parts. A
>> rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a
>> distance between 75 and 80
>> cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents his
>> licence. In such cases
>> the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that
>>
> the
>
>> angle between the forearm
>> and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing position"
>>
>> TI expect that the deal was that angle was greater than 120°. The word
>>
> was
>
>> that it was measured inappropriately for the prologue and allowed so she
>> assumed it was correct when she arrived at the TT with the same bike.
>>
> When
>
>> it was remeasured correctly it was off. Stupid rule anyhow. She was not
>> penalized she was just late to the start because of the need to fix it.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of David Auker
>> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 15:39 PM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
>>
>>
>> Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt. Hood Cycling
>> Classic.
>>
>>
> http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_c
>
>> las.html
>> (also at:)
>> http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
>> Action photo!
>>
>> Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled down too
>> far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly trying to thwart
>> the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight in handlebar
>> adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?
>>
>> =David
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1460 - Release Date: 5/22/2008
>>
> 7:06 AM
>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1461 - Release Date: 5/22/2008 4:44 PM
>
_______________________________________________
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Mark J. Ginsberg
Attorney At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com


Darell C. Provencher

2008-05-22

If I remember right, in 1989 when Le Professeur (Fignon) raced the last
stage TT into Paris, he actually used cow horn bars and a front disc, so he
probably had less stability in steering and perhaps was catching more air in
the chest than if he had been down in the drops of regular road bars. On
the mental side, if I remember right, Lemond also refused to get any split
times from his support crew, while Fignon did. Lemond won the GC by 8
seconds. And I think it was the fastest individual TT in TDF history until
Zabriskie broke it (on a carbon fiber bike (not steel) and carbon wheels --
maybe 4-5 lbs lighter)? Was that 2005?

DP

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 7:16 PM, David Auker wrote:

> Here is a photo of Longo's position:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=/photos/2008/may08/mthood08/mthood081/2008_MtHood-W01_01
> (same as:)
> http://tinyurl.com/42l3fb
>
> I think her little bar-angle detail was a ways away from turning into
> Obree's Superman position, but yes, you provide some history. Her
> "advantage" by that angle? Gotta have rules, though...look at Laurent
> Fignon on normal bars, Lemond ushering in aerobars (of course it might
> have been Fignon's ponytail that slowed him down...) in the final TT of
> the '89 TdF. Ouch!
>
> =David
>
> Brian L wrote:
> > In case you're interested, here is some history on the original
> "Superman"
> > position that caused this rule.
> >
> > http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/superpos.htm
> >
> >
> > -brian
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of David Auker
> > Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:12 PM
> > To: mike.murray@obra.org
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
> >
> > Well, I guess rules is rules, but it seems like a trivial detail. It's
> > not like it would make her faster...if anything, pointing her arms down
> > at a greater than level angle seems like it would present more frontal
> > area, not enhance sleek aerodynamics. But, I'm not qualified to really
> > assess this!
> >
> > David
> >
> > Mike Murray wrote:
> >
> >> The applicable UCI rule is:
> >> "1.3.023 For road time trial competitions and for the following track
> >> competitions: individual and team pursuit,
> >> kilometre and 500 m, an extension may be added to the steering system.
> The
> >> distance
> >> between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and
> the
> >> extremity of the handlebar
> >> may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article 1.3.022
> (B,C,D)
> >> remaining
> >> unchanged. A support for the elbows or forearms is permitted (see
> diagram
> >> «Structure (1B)»).
> >> For road time trial competitions, controls or levers fixed to the
> >>
> > handlebar
> >
> >> extension may extend
> >> beyond the 75 cm limit as long as they do not constitute a change of
> use,
> >> particularly that of providing
> >> an alternative hand position beyond the 75 cm mark.
> >>
> >> For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph, the
> >> distance of 75 cm may be
> >> increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for morphological
> >> reasons; «morphological reasons
> >> » should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of
> the
> >> rider's body parts. A
> >> rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a
> >> distance between 75 and 80
> >> cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents
> his
> >> licence. In such cases
> >> the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that
> >>
> > the
> >
> >> angle between the forearm
> >> and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing
> position"
> >>
> >> TI expect that the deal was that angle was greater than 120°. The word
> >>
> > was
> >
> >> that it was measured inappropriately for the prologue and allowed so she
> >> assumed it was correct when she arrived at the TT with the same bike.
> >>
> > When
> >
> >> it was remeasured correctly it was off. Stupid rule anyhow. She was
> not
> >> penalized she was just late to the start because of the need to fix it.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> >> Behalf Of David Auker
> >> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 15:39 PM
> >> To: obra@list.obra.org
> >> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
> >>
> >>
> >> Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt. Hood Cycling
> >> Classic.
> >>
> >>
> >
> http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_c
> >
> >> las.html
> >> (also at:)
> >> http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
> >> Action photo!
> >>
> >> Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled down too
> >> far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly trying to thwart
> >> the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight in handlebar
> >> adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?
> >>
> >> =David
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Checked by AVG.
> >> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1460 - Release Date:
> 5/22/2008
> >>
> > 7:06 AM
> >
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1461 - Release Date:
> 5/22/2008 4:44 PM
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Note NEW email address is darellp@easystreet.net -- no longer .com


David Auker

2008-05-22

Here is a photo of Longo's position:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=/photos/2008/may08/mthood08/mthood081/2008_MtHood-W01_01
(same as:)
http://tinyurl.com/42l3fb

I think her little bar-angle detail was a ways away from turning into
Obree's Superman position, but yes, you provide some history. Her
"advantage" by that angle? Gotta have rules, though...look at Laurent
Fignon on normal bars, Lemond ushering in aerobars (of course it might
have been Fignon's ponytail that slowed him down...) in the final TT of
the '89 TdF. Ouch!

=David

Brian L wrote:
> In case you're interested, here is some history on the original "Superman"
> position that caused this rule.
>
> http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/superpos.htm
>
>
> -brian
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:12 PM
> To: mike.murray@obra.org
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
>
> Well, I guess rules is rules, but it seems like a trivial detail. It's
> not like it would make her faster...if anything, pointing her arms down
> at a greater than level angle seems like it would present more frontal
> area, not enhance sleek aerodynamics. But, I'm not qualified to really
> assess this!
>
> David
>
> Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> The applicable UCI rule is:
>> "1.3.023 For road time trial competitions and for the following track
>> competitions: individual and team pursuit,
>> kilometre and 500 m, an extension may be added to the steering system. The
>> distance
>> between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and the
>> extremity of the handlebar
>> may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article 1.3.022 (B,C,D)
>> remaining
>> unchanged. A support for the elbows or forearms is permitted (see diagram
>> «Structure (1B)»).
>> For road time trial competitions, controls or levers fixed to the
>>
> handlebar
>
>> extension may extend
>> beyond the 75 cm limit as long as they do not constitute a change of use,
>> particularly that of providing
>> an alternative hand position beyond the 75 cm mark.
>>
>> For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph, the
>> distance of 75 cm may be
>> increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for morphological
>> reasons; «morphological reasons
>> » should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of the
>> rider's body parts. A
>> rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a
>> distance between 75 and 80
>> cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents his
>> licence. In such cases
>> the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that
>>
> the
>
>> angle between the forearm
>> and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing position"
>>
>> TI expect that the deal was that angle was greater than 120°. The word
>>
> was
>
>> that it was measured inappropriately for the prologue and allowed so she
>> assumed it was correct when she arrived at the TT with the same bike.
>>
> When
>
>> it was remeasured correctly it was off. Stupid rule anyhow. She was not
>> penalized she was just late to the start because of the need to fix it.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of David Auker
>> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 15:39 PM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
>>
>>
>> Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt. Hood Cycling
>> Classic.
>>
>>
> http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_c
>
>> las.html
>> (also at:)
>> http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
>> Action photo!
>>
>> Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled down too
>> far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly trying to thwart
>> the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight in handlebar
>> adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?
>>
>> =David
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1460 - Release Date: 5/22/2008
>>
> 7:06 AM
>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1461 - Release Date: 5/22/2008 4:44 PM
>


Brian L

2008-05-22

In case you're interested, here is some history on the original "Superman"
position that caused this rule.

http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/superpos.htm

-brian

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of David Auker
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:12 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page

Well, I guess rules is rules, but it seems like a trivial detail. It's
not like it would make her faster...if anything, pointing her arms down
at a greater than level angle seems like it would present more frontal
area, not enhance sleek aerodynamics. But, I'm not qualified to really
assess this!

David

Mike Murray wrote:
> The applicable UCI rule is:
> "1.3.023 For road time trial competitions and for the following track
> competitions: individual and team pursuit,
> kilometre and 500 m, an extension may be added to the steering system. The
> distance
> between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and the
> extremity of the handlebar
> may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article 1.3.022 (B,C,D)
> remaining
> unchanged. A support for the elbows or forearms is permitted (see diagram
> «Structure (1B)»).
> For road time trial competitions, controls or levers fixed to the
handlebar
> extension may extend
> beyond the 75 cm limit as long as they do not constitute a change of use,
> particularly that of providing
> an alternative hand position beyond the 75 cm mark.
>
> For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph, the
> distance of 75 cm may be
> increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for morphological
> reasons; «morphological reasons
> » should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of the
> rider's body parts. A
> rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a
> distance between 75 and 80
> cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents his
> licence. In such cases
> the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that
the
> angle between the forearm
> and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing position"
>
> TI expect that the deal was that angle was greater than 120°. The word
was
> that it was measured inappropriately for the prologue and allowed so she
> assumed it was correct when she arrived at the TT with the same bike.
When
> it was remeasured correctly it was off. Stupid rule anyhow. She was not
> penalized she was just late to the start because of the need to fix it.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 15:39 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
>
>
> Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt. Hood Cycling
> Classic.
>
http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_c
> las.html
> (also at:)
> http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
> Action photo!
>
> Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled down too
> far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly trying to thwart
> the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight in handlebar
> adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?
>
> =David
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1460 - Release Date: 5/22/2008
7:06 AM
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


David Auker

2008-05-22

Well, I guess rules is rules, but it seems like a trivial detail. It's
not like it would make her faster...if anything, pointing her arms down
at a greater than level angle seems like it would present more frontal
area, not enhance sleek aerodynamics. But, I'm not qualified to really
assess this!

David

Mike Murray wrote:
> The applicable UCI rule is:
> "1.3.023 For road time trial competitions and for the following track
> competitions: individual and team pursuit,
> kilometre and 500 m, an extension may be added to the steering system. The
> distance
> between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and the
> extremity of the handlebar
> may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article 1.3.022 (B,C,D)
> remaining
> unchanged. A support for the elbows or forearms is permitted (see diagram
> «Structure (1B)»).
> For road time trial competitions, controls or levers fixed to the handlebar
> extension may extend
> beyond the 75 cm limit as long as they do not constitute a change of use,
> particularly that of providing
> an alternative hand position beyond the 75 cm mark.
>
> For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph, the
> distance of 75 cm may be
> increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for morphological
> reasons; «morphological reasons
> » should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of the
> rider's body parts. A
> rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a
> distance between 75 and 80
> cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents his
> licence. In such cases
> the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that the
> angle between the forearm
> and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing position"
>
> TI expect that the deal was that angle was greater than 120°. The word was
> that it was measured inappropriately for the prologue and allowed so she
> assumed it was correct when she arrived at the TT with the same bike. When
> it was remeasured correctly it was off. Stupid rule anyhow. She was not
> penalized she was just late to the start because of the need to fix it.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 15:39 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page
>
>
> Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt. Hood Cycling
> Classic.
> http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_c
> las.html
> (also at:)
> http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
> Action photo!
>
> Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled down too
> far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly trying to thwart
> the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight in handlebar
> adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?
>
> =David
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.0/1460 - Release Date: 5/22/2008 7:06 AM
>


Mike Murray

2008-05-22

The applicable UCI rule is:
"1.3.023 For road time trial competitions and for the following track
competitions: individual and team pursuit,
kilometre and 500 m, an extension may be added to the steering system. The
distance
between the vertical line passing through the bottom bracket axle and the
extremity of the handlebar
may not exceed 75 cm, with the other limits set in article 1.3.022 (B,C,D)
remaining
unchanged. A support for the elbows or forearms is permitted (see diagram
«Structure (1B)»).
For road time trial competitions, controls or levers fixed to the handlebar
extension may extend
beyond the 75 cm limit as long as they do not constitute a change of use,
particularly that of providing
an alternative hand position beyond the 75 cm mark.

For the track and road competitions covered by the first paragraph, the
distance of 75 cm may be
increased to 80 cm to the extent that this is required for morphological
reasons; «morphological reasons
» should be taken as meaning anything regarding the size or length of the
rider's body parts. A
rider who, for this reason, considers that he needs to make use of a
distance between 75 and 80
cm must inform the commissaires' panel at the moment that he presents his
licence. In such cases
the commissaires' panel may carry out the following test: ensuring that the
angle between the forearm
and upper arm does not exceed 120° when the rider is in a racing position"

TI expect that the deal was that angle was greater than 120°. The word was
that it was measured inappropriately for the prologue and allowed so she
assumed it was correct when she arrived at the TT with the same bike. When
it was remeasured correctly it was off. Stupid rule anyhow. She was not
penalized she was just late to the start because of the need to fix it.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of David Auker
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 15:39 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Oregonian Sports Front Page

Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt. Hood Cycling
Classic.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_c
las.html
(also at:)
http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
Action photo!

Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled down too
far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly trying to thwart
the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight in handlebar
adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?

=David
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


David Auker

2008-05-19

Jeaannie Longo-Ciprelli photo, out of the saddle in the Mt. Hood Cycling
Classic.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/2008/05/photos_mount_hood_cycling_clas.html
(also at:)
http://tinyurl.com/4hktq8
Action photo!

Any insight on the "equipment ruling" (TT handlebars angled down too
far) that penalized her by a minute? Was she blatantly trying to thwart
the rules, or is she just a victim of some minor oversight in handlebar
adjustment? Did she yell at her mechanic?

=David