Monty Hill

I think that is an awesome idea. Tabor is a tough race and there should be a place for beginners to compete. I know some of the guys who finish in the top 10 of 4/5 have been racing it for years.

Too bad I can't downgrade back to 5 where I should be.

Best regards,

Monty

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Candi Murray
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 4:52 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

I have worked at finding a solution to scoring as many riders as possible. I
think it is wonderful that we try to score the whole field, and I personally
would like to continue to do so.
Yesterday I threw out a couple of suggestions. i.e.
1. Pull lapped riders and score everyone
2. Only score the riders that finish in the lead group or until the first
lapped rider shows up.

BTW I only got 3 responses to these suggestions.

Today I asked the race organizers if we could do a 3rd option.

Rework the schedule to look like this
5:50 Fixed Gear
6:00 Cat 5 only
6:15 all women's field
6:45: Masters
7:10 Cat 4 only
7:30 Cat 3
8:10 Sr Men

I looked at all the riders registered in the 4/5 field this week. There were
47 Cat 4 and 43 Cat 5's. Trying to figure out a way to separate them seems
to be a possible alternative.

Time for your responses.
Candi

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Joe Cipale

Wow... I guess the rain is really strating to get to people. Time to cancel this damn rose festival nonsense. Maybe then we can get rid of the rainy period that typically hits in June, no?

Joe

Daniel Watson wrote:

>
> casey your $15 probably isn't worth the trouble of dealing with you..you are complaining or you wouldn't be writing, volunteer and then you can finish out of the results for free..
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 6/6/08, casey wrote:
>
> > From: casey
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 11:56 AM
> > I've got to admit I was pretty frustrated to not see how
> > I did in the race compared to other racers I know, and
> > compared to how I did last year... but now that it's
> > settled I've come to understand that it's got to be
> > pretty hard to get all 90 of us scored when there's
> > people getting lapped.
> >
> > But that said, I'll be taking my $15 somewhere else the
> > next several Wednesdays. 90 riders x $15 a piece... at my
> > job, if my customors paid $1350 then I'd feel obliged
> > to give more than 17% result. To be clear, I'm not
> > complaining, just voting with my dollar. Being told I
> > don't matter because I didn't finish with the
> > leaders is twisted logic.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Candi Murray

I have worked at finding a solution to scoring as many riders as possible. I
think it is wonderful that we try to score the whole field, and I personally
would like to continue to do so.
Yesterday I threw out a couple of suggestions. i.e.
1. Pull lapped riders and score everyone
2. Only score the riders that finish in the lead group or until the first
lapped rider shows up.

BTW I only got 3 responses to these suggestions.

Today I asked the race organizers if we could do a 3rd option.

Rework the schedule to look like this
5:50 Fixed Gear
6:00 Cat 5 only
6:15 all women's field
6:45: Masters
7:10 Cat 4 only
7:30 Cat 3
8:10 Sr Men

I looked at all the riders registered in the 4/5 field this week. There were
47 Cat 4 and 43 Cat 5's. Trying to figure out a way to separate them seems
to be a possible alternative.

Time for your responses.
Candi

Jess Mace

wow..this is turning pleasant...any chance it could STOP in the near future so we can move onto something a bit more productive?

Jess C. Mace, MPH
Clinical Outcomes Research Coordinator
for Timothy Smith, MD, MPH
Otolaryngology - Head and Neck Surgery
Oregon Health & Science University
503.494.5886

>>> "J.Michael Manning" 6/6/2008 4:01:36 PM >>>
I was at Tabor on Wednesday strictly for the purpose of watching one of my athletes race in the 4/5 event. Since he made the lead break and finished 3rd, I was watching with concern as the pack was splintered badly all along the course. I expressed concern to several of my compadres about the difficulty of placing the large number of riders and why riders were allowed to continue riding when some of them appeared to be on a moderate training ride as they pedaled through the start/finish area. I am amazed that the officials were able to do such a good job, given those circumstances. If I had my way, you slackers would have been goners. The first time I raced at Mt Tabor, I got dropped on the second lap and continued to ride until I saw the pack approaching from the rear, at which point, I pulled over and watched from the sidelines. I made a decision to do better and now I consistently place in the top ten if not the top five. I suggest you guys should train harder and learn to love the process.
J.Michael Manning
CycleOne Coaching

From: cmurray@obra.org
To: michael_mann@gbsd.gresham.k12.or.us; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:16:42 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

There is no "15" rule.
That is just more of a standard that we were held to in the past. With the
photo finish camera we were able to place deeper and I have encouraged all
officials to try and place as deep as possible.
The 4/5 field at this
week's tabor was almost 3 times larger then any other field. There were riders
that went down 1-2 laps intermingled around the course. The officials
planned on placing as many as they could. However, when they got to 16th place
they started to encounter riders who were lapped and the difficulty that they
faced was in identifying those. Instead of just listing them all and
having to make multiple corrections, the decision was made to just post what
they knew were correct. The officials did not feel very good about
this. This discussion was to help figure out how to make a compromise to
make the most people happy.

Candi

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Mann
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:03 AM
To:
obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor
4/5

My 2-cents

I'm (pretty much) fine with only the top
15 being scored. The officials are working hard, and knowing I need to get to
the top 20% (15%?) if I want my name in lights is a good goal to have.
That
said, It looks like everyone else in every other cat got placement numbers - to
34th in Cat 3 and 31 in Masters men, so it looks like the "15" rule was applied
inconsistently. And I'm glad for them - It would be silly to take that away for
the sake of consistency. I only say something because I briefly considered
whether to race Masters or 4/5, and if I had finished dead last in Masters
(likely), at least I would have seen it, but in the 4/5s I'm chopped liver.
Again, i don't really care. Maybe there were more volunteers available to score
those races and they were busy (racing?) during the 4/5. Or maybe the subtle
message that you don't "count" til you place top 15 or race a higher cat is
intentional.
I know a lot of guys passed me, and I know I passed a few,
especially on the last 2 laps, but other than that I have no clue where I
placed. Part of that is oxygen deprivation, part newbie-ness, and part the
nature of the course at Tabor.
Because Tabor is a series, it would be kind
of nice to know my placement so next week I know whether I improved it or not.
But I don't expect the officials to take care of that. One solution (and a good
reason to be on a team) is to have friends racing a different cat keep an eye
out for your position and time behind the leader when you cross the line. After
all, one of the reasons we race is to compare our performance with others. If I
didn't want that, I'd skip the fees and just go hammer Tabor alone for a few
laps. Not nearly as fun.

_________________________________________________________________
It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live* Messenger. Learn how.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow

J.Michael Manning

I was at Tabor on Wednesday strictly for the purpose of watching one of my athletes race in the 4/5 event. Since he made the lead break and finished 3rd, I was watching with concern as the pack was splintered badly all along the course. I expressed concern to several of my compadres about the difficulty of placing the large number of riders and why riders were allowed to continue riding when some of them appeared to be on a moderate training ride as they pedaled through the start/finish area. I am amazed that the officials were able to do such a good job, given those circumstances. If I had my way, you slackers would have been goners. The first time I raced at Mt Tabor, I got dropped on the second lap and continued to ride until I saw the pack approaching from the rear, at which point, I pulled over and watched from the sidelines. I made a decision to do better and now I consistently place in the top ten if not the top five. I suggest you guys should train harder and learn to love the process.
J.Michael Manning
CycleOne Coaching

From: cmurray@obra.org
To: michael_mann@gbsd.gresham.k12.or.us; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:16:42 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

There is no "15" rule.
That is just more of a standard that we were held to in the past. With the
photo finish camera we were able to place deeper and I have encouraged all
officials to try and place as deep as possible.
The 4/5 field at this
week's tabor was almost 3 times larger then any other field. There were riders
that went down 1-2 laps intermingled around the course. The officials
planned on placing as many as they could. However, when they got to 16th place
they started to encounter riders who were lapped and the difficulty that they
faced was in identifying those. Instead of just listing them all and
having to make multiple corrections, the decision was made to just post what
they knew were correct. The officials did not feel very good about
this. This discussion was to help figure out how to make a compromise to
make the most people happy.

Candi

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Mann
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:03 AM
To:
obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor
4/5

My 2-cents

I'm (pretty much) fine with only the top
15 being scored. The officials are working hard, and knowing I need to get to
the top 20% (15%?) if I want my name in lights is a good goal to have.
That
said, It looks like everyone else in every other cat got placement numbers - to
34th in Cat 3 and 31 in Masters men, so it looks like the "15" rule was applied
inconsistently. And I'm glad for them - It would be silly to take that away for
the sake of consistency. I only say something because I briefly considered
whether to race Masters or 4/5, and if I had finished dead last in Masters
(likely), at least I would have seen it, but in the 4/5s I'm chopped liver.
Again, i don't really care. Maybe there were more volunteers available to score
those races and they were busy (racing?) during the 4/5. Or maybe the subtle
message that you don't "count" til you place top 15 or race a higher cat is
intentional.
I know a lot of guys passed me, and I know I passed a few,
especially on the last 2 laps, but other than that I have no clue where I
placed. Part of that is oxygen deprivation, part newbie-ness, and part the
nature of the course at Tabor.
Because Tabor is a series, it would be kind
of nice to know my placement so next week I know whether I improved it or not.
But I don't expect the officials to take care of that. One solution (and a good
reason to be on a team) is to have friends racing a different cat keep an eye
out for your position and time behind the leader when you cross the line. After
all, one of the reasons we race is to compare our performance with others. If I
didn't want that, I'd skip the fees and just go hammer Tabor alone for a few
laps. Not nearly as fun.

_________________________________________________________________
It’s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live™ Messenger. Learn how.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow

Daniel Watson

casey your $15 probably isn't worth the trouble of dealing with you..you are complaining or you wouldn't be writing, volunteer and then you can finish out of the results for free..

--- On Fri, 6/6/08, casey wrote:

> From: casey
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 11:56 AM
> I've got to admit I was pretty frustrated to not see how
> I did in the race compared to other racers I know, and
> compared to how I did last year... but now that it's
> settled I've come to understand that it's got to be
> pretty hard to get all 90 of us scored when there's
> people getting lapped.
>
> But that said, I'll be taking my $15 somewhere else the
> next several Wednesdays. 90 riders x $15 a piece... at my
> job, if my customors paid $1350 then I'd feel obliged
> to give more than 17% result. To be clear, I'm not
> complaining, just voting with my dollar. Being told I
> don't matter because I didn't finish with the
> leaders is twisted logic.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

I think this whole discussion is really pretty comical. Nearly everywhere
else in the country only the first 10 or so finishers are listed for local
races on a regular basis. It was the same here in OR until we threw
thousands of dollars at purchasing technology that will allow placing more
people on a regularly. It still isn't easy and it takes a lot of work on
the part of the judges. For nearly every race this year results have been
reported very deep. In this regard Oregon is nearly unique.

Results were not reported deeply for the Cat 4/5 on Wednesday for several
reasons:
1) The few camera operators were not available so the FinishLynx camera was
not available for this race
2) The field was accidentally over large
3) There was a disparity of ability in the field which led to riders on
multiple laps being mixed together
4) The judges at this race were not prepared for this and did not account
for lapped riders as well as they could

To put some background on this:
- There are only a handful of people in Oregon that are willing to work
races as officials
- There is a smaller group that are willing to work as race Judges
- There is an exceptional small group of people that have learned to operate
the FinishLynx camera

So anybody see the solution coming? Step up to be an official. You don't
have to pay $15 or, for that matter, volunteer as these are paid positions.
More officials and camera operators who are more experienced will make it
easier to keep providing results very deep as we generally have been.

I also have to point out that even though we often will have every rider in
the field placed, practically there is no difference between 15, 25, 35,
etc. That is the reason why in stage races everyone in the field is given
pack time.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of casey
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:57 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

I've got to admit I was pretty frustrated to not see how I did in the race
compared to other racers I know, and compared to how I did last year... but
now that it's settled I've come to understand that it's got to be pretty
hard to get all 90 of us scored when there's people getting lapped.

But that said, I'll be taking my $15 somewhere else the next several
Wednesdays. 90 riders x $15 a piece... at my job, if my customors paid
$1350 then I'd feel obliged to give more than 17% result. To be clear, I'm
not complaining, just voting with my dollar. Being told I don't matter
because I didn't finish with the leaders is twisted logic.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Actually we have the technology to give you times down to a resolution of
1/10,000 sec. And, no we are not planning on doing that any time soon.

Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of spencer
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 13:37 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

the next thikg everyone will want is times too. that way we can know that
not only were we 87th place ( give me a break on needing to know that place)
but that we were approximately 12 minutes and 38.99 seconds down on the
winner. maybe we should get ribbons too? the kids races hand them out.

bike racing is about the "W" and not about who got 35th, or 56th or whatever
place. maybe get bent out of shape if you missed the podium, but not for
places 60 deep.

Be thankful this is OBRA and not USCF because if it was, you would have
gotten the whistle early in the race.

we race to have fun, not to get a number. personally, i dont get bent out
of shape about whether i was 10th or 25th place, i just look back and find
the point in the race where the guy who won dropped me.

have fun, show up to race, but the officials already do more than enough.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Timothy & Lisa Ehlers

Wow, it is fun to read the anxiety had by those who did not receive results.  As David says, if it were USAC it would be "thanks for racing" as they yank you off the course!  Coming here a few years back from Colorado and riding under the ACA banner that is the way Crits and tight circuits were handled.  If you were spit out and were not making ground which usually meant the motor was on your rear leading the main group you got two beeps of the horn and reported out  at the start/finish line.  I know this firsthand as I very often got the horn, but it all depends on the size of the fields also, but safety is the main concern at that point.  Sounds like the 4/5 was huge for the course and you should be lucky you were not yanked.  I applaud the officials for doing their best to make sure that they get folks placed and accurately, again in the ACA many times they only placed the top 15 or 20 in large fields, the rest of us were fodder. 
Don't let one possible not so great experience distract you from racing, it is suppose to be about having fun, isn't it?
Tim Ehlers
-----Original Message-----
From: "david hart"
Sent 6/6/2008 2:35:08 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] tabor 4/5This is how USA Cycling does it.
If you are OTB and the official can tell you won't catch the pack, it's the whistle and the pull. That could be on the 2nd or 3rd lap. Not very much fun, that could be $10/lap.
I don't want to pull riders. I also don't want the OTB riders impeding the lead group or become a liability. We stopped at 15 as about 10 lapped riders (up to two laps down) came across at the finish with the riders who were in the top 20. It would take a lot of time to sort you out.
We are working on resolving the large field. Even with 75 riders max you probably won't see results past 25 or so.
How about this, you all come across single file and don't lap anyone. This has been Candi's request for years.
My first year of racing, I didn't see myself in the results until the second year. Make it a goal and we make ours. We are doing our best. Believe us.
Sorry that someone made you feel unimportant.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Tim Schauer

For those you know the movie "Office Space"....I couldn't resist this reply....

Well George, ... I wouldn't say ... we'll be ... missin' it....

Tim

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of gschreckchat@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:56 PM
To: casey; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

Casey, it is a race. It is initially all about being first or at least one of the leaders. Those are the results that matter. If you came in 45th, you really did not have a result, and it is silly to blame the promoter or the officials. You have overly high expections regarding the value of your $15 and your finish, as well as the amount of effort people should expend in exchange. We will miss you and your $15.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: casey

> I've got to admit I was pretty frustrated to not see how I did in the race
> compared to other racers I know, and compared to how I did last year... but now
> that it's settled I've come to understand that it's got to be pretty hard to get
> all 90 of us scored when there's people getting lapped.
>
> But that said, I'll be taking my $15 somewhere else the next several Wednesdays.
> 90 riders x $15 a piece... at my job, if my customors paid $1350 then I'd feel
> obliged to give more than 17% result. To be clear, I'm not complaining, just
> voting with my dollar. Being told I don't matter because I didn't finish with
> the leaders is twisted logic.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing lis t
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

david hart

This is how USA Cycling does it.

If you are OTB and the official can tell you won't catch the pack, it's the whistle and the pull. That could be on the 2nd or 3rd lap. Not very much fun, that could be $10/lap.

I don't want to pull riders. I also don't want the OTB riders impeding the lead group or become a liability. We stopped at 15 as about 10 lapped riders (up to two laps down) came across at the finish with the riders who were in the top 20. It would take a lot of time to sort you out.

We are working on resolving the large field. Even with 75 riders max you probably won't see results past 25 or so.

How about this, you all come across single file and don't lap anyone. This has been Candi's request for years.

My first year of racing, I didn't see myself in the results until the second year. Make it a goal and we make ours. We are doing our best. Believe us.

Sorry that someone made you feel unimportant.

Monty Hill

Hey, I raced 4/5 at Tabor and I got last place and I want everyone to know!!! :)

I think it is unfair to ask the officials to keep track of all places. What difference does it make if you beat me, an out of shape amateur.

I know there is not enough time in the current schedule, but it would be cool if the 4's and 5's were separated.

MOnty

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of spencer
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 1:37 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

the next thikg everyone will want is times too. that way we can know that not only were we 87th place ( give me a break on needing to know that place) but that we were approximately 12 minutes and 38.99 seconds down on the winner. maybe we should get ribbons too? the kids races hand them out.

bike racing is about the "W" and not about who got 35th, or 56th or whatever place. maybe get bent out of shape if you missed the podium, but not for places 60 deep.

Be thankful this is OBRA and not USCF because if it was, you would have gotten the whistle early in the race.

we race to have fun, not to get a number. personally, i dont get bent out of shape about whether i was 10th or 25th place, i just look back and find the point in the race where the guy who won dropped me.

have fun, show up to race, but the officials already do more than enough.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

gschreckchat@comcast.net

Casey, it is a race. It is initially all about being first or at least one of the leaders. Those are the results that matter. If you came in 45th, you really did not have a result, and it is silly to blame the promoter or the officials. You have overly high expections regarding the value of your $15 and your finish, as well as the amount of effort people should expend in exchange. We will miss you and your $15.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: casey

> I've got to admit I was pretty frustrated to not see how I did in the race
> compared to other racers I know, and compared to how I did last year... but now
> that it's settled I've come to understand that it's got to be pretty hard to get
> all 90 of us scored when there's people getting lapped.
>
> But that said, I'll be taking my $15 somewhere else the next several Wednesdays.
> 90 riders x $15 a piece... at my job, if my customors paid $1350 then I'd feel
> obliged to give more than 17% result. To be clear, I'm not complaining, just
> voting with my dollar. Being told I don't matter because I didn't finish with
> the leaders is twisted logic.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

spencer

the next thikg everyone will want is times too. that way we can know that not only were we 87th place ( give me a break on needing to know that place) but that we were approximately 12 minutes and 38.99 seconds down on the winner. maybe we should get ribbons too? the kids races hand them out.

bike racing is about the "W" and not about who got 35th, or 56th or whatever place. maybe get bent out of shape if you missed the podium, but not for places 60 deep.

Be thankful this is OBRA and not USCF because if it was, you would have gotten the whistle early in the race.

we race to have fun, not to get a number. personally, i dont get bent out of shape about whether i was 10th or 25th place, i just look back and find the point in the race where the guy who won dropped me.

have fun, show up to race, but the officials already do more than enough.

Peter Gutwald

Here we go on the cost of racing again... I think Tabor is probably one of
the best venues we have for racing. It's great fun for the racers, and
great fun for the fans. It's worth every penny.

As for the comments about not seeing yourself in the results... Is all I can
say is that I've been racing Tabor for five years, I have DNF'd, placed, not
placed, shown up in the results, and not shown up in the results. When I
don't show up in the results, I deal with it and come back next week with
the personal goal of finishing high enough to make the results. Again, try
to understand how hard it is to place riders on a short course like Tabor...
if you don't know how hard it is, offer to volunteer and THEN see how you
feel about it.

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 11:56 AM, casey wrote:

> I've got to admit I was pretty frustrated to not see how I did in the race
> compared to other racers I know, and compared to how I did last year... but
> now that it's settled I've come to understand that it's got to be pretty
> hard to get all 90 of us scored when there's people getting lapped.
>
> But that said, I'll be taking my $15 somewhere else the next several
> Wednesdays. 90 riders x $15 a piece... at my job, if my customors paid
> $1350 then I'd feel obliged to give more than 17% result. To be clear, I'm
> not complaining, just voting with my dollar. Being told I don't matter
> because I didn't finish with the leaders is twisted logic.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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--
Peter Gutwald
MonaVie Independent Distributor
3980 Carman Drive
Lake Oswego, OR 97035

Website: www.mymonavie.com/portlandacaijuice

Phone:
(503) 784-3683

casey

I've got to admit I was pretty frustrated to not see how I did in the race compared to other racers I know, and compared to how I did last year... but now that it's settled I've come to understand that it's got to be pretty hard to get all 90 of us scored when there's people getting lapped.

But that said, I'll be taking my $15 somewhere else the next several Wednesdays. 90 riders x $15 a piece... at my job, if my customors paid $1350 then I'd feel obliged to give more than 17% result. To be clear, I'm not complaining, just voting with my dollar. Being told I don't matter because I didn't finish with the leaders is twisted logic.

Mike Murray

Ahnalyst wrote:
"How many races/years should I have entered/placed before I wrote CAT 4 by
my name instead of CAT 5?"

That is not how it works. You don't upgrade yourself. You need to apply to
get upgraded. The criteria and contacts are at
http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html.

Mike Murray

Candi Murray

There is no "15" rule. That is just more of a standard that we were held to
in the past. With the photo finish camera we were able to place deeper and
I have encouraged all officials to try and place as deep as possible.
The 4/5 field at this week's tabor was almost 3 times larger then any other
field. There were riders that went down 1-2 laps intermingled around the
course. The officials planned on placing as many as they could. However,
when they got to 16th place they started to encounter riders who were lapped
and the difficulty that they faced was in identifying those. Instead of
just listing them all and having to make multiple corrections, the decision
was made to just post what they knew were correct. The officials did not
feel very good about this. This discussion was to help figure out how to
make a compromise to make the most people happy.

Candi

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Mann
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:03 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

My 2-cents

I'm (pretty much) fine with only the top 15 being scored. The officials are
working hard, and knowing I need to get to the top 20% (15%?) if I want my
name in lights is a good goal to have.
That said, It looks like everyone else in every other cat got placement
numbers - to 34th in Cat 3 and 31 in Masters men, so it looks like the "15"
rule was applied inconsistently. And I'm glad for them - It would be silly
to take that away for the sake of consistency. I only say something because
I briefly considered whether to race Masters or 4/5, and if I had finished
dead last in Masters (likely), at least I would have seen it, but in the
4/5s I'm chopped liver. Again, i don't really care. Maybe there were more
volunteers available to score those races and they were busy (racing?)
during the 4/5. Or maybe the subtle message that you don't "count" til you
place top 15 or race a higher cat is intentional.
I know a lot of guys passed me, and I know I passed a few, especially on
the last 2 laps, but other than that I have no clue where I placed. Part of
that is oxygen deprivation, part newbie-ness, and part the nature of the
course at Tabor.
Because Tabor is a series, it would be kind of nice to know my placement so
next week I know whether I improved it or not. But I don't expect the
officials to take care of that. One solution (and a good reason to be on a
team) is to have friends racing a different cat keep an eye out for your
position and time behind the leader when you cross the line. After all, one
of the reasons we race is to compare our performance with others. If I
didn't want that, I'd skip the fees and just go hammer Tabor alone for a few
laps. Not nearly as fun.

Michael Mann

My 2-cents

I'm (pretty much) fine with only the top 15 being scored. The officials are working hard, and knowing I need to get to the top 20% (15%?) if I want my name in lights is a good goal to have.
That said, It looks like everyone else in every other cat got placement numbers - to 34th in Cat 3 and 31 in Masters men, so it looks like the "15" rule was applied inconsistently. And I'm glad for them - It would be silly to take that away for the
sake of consistency. I only say something because I briefly considered whether to race Masters or 4/5, and if I had finished dead last in Masters (likely), at least I would have seen it, but in the 4/5s I'm chopped liver. Again, i don't really care.
Maybe there were more volunteers available to score those races and they were busy (racing?) during the 4/5. Or maybe the subtle message that you don't "count" til you place top 15 or race a higher cat is intentional.
I know a lot of guys passed me, and I know I passed a few, especially on the last 2 laps, but other than that I have no clue where I placed. Part of that is oxygen deprivation, part newbie-ness, and part the nature of the course at Tabor.
Because Tabor is a series, it would be kind of nice to know my placement so next week I know whether I improved it or not. But I don't expect the officials to take care of that. One solution (and a good reason to be on a team) is to have friends
racing a different cat keep an eye out for your position and time behind the leader when you cross the line. After all, one of the reasons we race is to compare our performance with others. If I didn't want that, I'd skip the fees and just go hammer
Tabor alone for a few laps. Not nearly as fun.

T. Kenji Sugahara

As Candi has stated,

Don't worry about not being listed in the results past 15. I will
allow you to count it.

In addition- as far as field limits are concerned, a mistake was
made. In essence, there was confusion as to sign in sheets. That
said, we have taken steps to ensure that this will not re-occur.

Thanks.

T. Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
503-302-4935

On Jun 5, 2008, at 4:20 PM, Quenton Conant wrote:

> Does this also mean that only the top 15 riders or so are going to
> get placed and/or have the race added onto their yearly results and
> the rest of us are just outta luck?
>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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Candi Murray

I think that there are multiple options.
1. Only score the top XX amount of riders (the main field and everyone
until you get to the first lapped rider) and let all the riders complete the
distance.
2. Pull the lapped riders and score all the remaining riders.
3. Score the race like we do ccx, scoring every rider every lap- this would
require more officials and about 1 hour post race to reveiew the film.
4. What else would you suggest ?

Remember that even though you may not get scored for a race, it does not
mean that you cannot count it when you apply to upgrade. You just append
those races to the note to Kenji.

Candi
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Quenton Conant
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:21 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

Does this also mean that only the top 15 riders or so are going to get
placed and/or have the race added onto their yearly results and the rest of
us are just outta luck?

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Quenton Conant

Also, I'd like to thank someone for some anonymously sent hatemail in regards to my post. At least I sign my name to what I say.

Quenton Conant

Honestly, that was meant as a simple question not as a slap to officials or anyone else.

Some riders also plan to upgrade by doing a certain number of races. You get 1point by showing up and racing for every race if you are a cat4, and that point counts towards your upgrade to cat3 if I'm not mistaken. 25minimum, or something like that.
Heck, if a rider wants to race up and get spanked and he has the minimum why not let him?

Others like to see where they end up in comparison to previous races/years/series, etc. Things like that are important to some people, and not to others...

Anyways. It wasn't meant as a primer to any trash talk. It was just a poorly phrased question on my part.

ahnalyst

How many races/years should I have entered/placed before I wrote CAT 4 by my
name instead of CAT 5?

2008/6/5 David Hart :

> I don't know if I would upgrade someone if they did the required races but
> came in 25th or 65th or 90th.
>
> Now race and place in the top 15, well that's something else.
>
>

Long, Steve

Okay, here's my final two cents on this and then I'm going to shut the
heck up cause I like it when I can keep my mouth shut to begin with.

If you have done 30 races as a cat 4 and you want to upgrade to a cat 3,
and, you've placed in the middle of the pack in your cat 4/5 races, you
might want to think again about upgrading because it don't get no
easier.

Greg Lemond said it doesn't hurt any less you just go faster. But, if
you're placing in the middle of the pack, you likely ain't going no
faster.
:)
Okay, maybe 4 cents worth.

________________________________

From: David Hart [mailto:suckwheel@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:19 PM
To: Chip Sloan
Cc: Long, Steve; ; Jim Stuck
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

I don't know if I would upgrade someone if they did the required races
but came in 25th or 65th or 90th.

Now race and place in the top 15, well that's something else.

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Chip Sloan wrote:

# of races, right?


On Jun 5, 2008, at 5:04 PM, "Long, Steve"

wrote:

> But you don't get any points beyond 15th place. How can it
matter in
> the
> case of upgrading?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Jim Stuck
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:02 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5
>
> It does matter for the Ironman points and upgrades from 5 to 4
and 4
> to
> 3. So to say it doesn't matter isn't quite true.
> _______________________________________________
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--
david hart

David Hart

I don't know if I would upgrade someone if they did the required races but
came in 25th or 65th or 90th.

Now race and place in the top 15, well that's something else.

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Chip Sloan wrote:

> # of races, right?
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2008, at 5:04 PM, "Long, Steve"
> wrote:
>
> > But you don't get any points beyond 15th place. How can it matter in
> > the
> > case of upgrading?
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Jim Stuck
> > Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:02 PM
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5
> >
> > It does matter for the Ironman points and upgrades from 5 to 4 and 4
> > to
> > 3. So to say it doesn't matter isn't quite true.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
david hart

Chip Sloan

# of races, right?

On Jun 5, 2008, at 5:04 PM, "Long, Steve"
wrote:

> But you don't get any points beyond 15th place. How can it matter in
> the
> case of upgrading?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Jim Stuck
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:02 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5
>
> It does matter for the Ironman points and upgrades from 5 to 4 and 4
> to
> 3. So to say it doesn't matter isn't quite true.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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gschreckchat@comcast.net

If you are out of the points, you get no upgrade points by being listed. As for upgrades from 5 to 4, that is based on number of races, and I am sure if you demonstrated that you raced (the promoter has you on the sign up list), it would count. As for Ironman, is that really a competition that people have as a goal?

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Jim Stuck

> It does matter for the Ironman points and upgrades from 5 to 4 and 4 to 3. So
> to say it doesn't matter isn't quite true.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Long, Steve

But you don't get any points beyond 15th place. How can it matter in the
case of upgrading?

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Stuck
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:02 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

It does matter for the Ironman points and upgrades from 5 to 4 and 4 to
3. So to say it doesn't matter isn't quite true.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jim Stuck

It does matter for the Ironman points and upgrades from 5 to 4 and 4 to 3. So to say it doesn't matter isn't quite true.

gschreckchat@comcast.net

Guys, it is a lot of work to place people, and sorry to say, but if you were not in the top few, it really does not matter for the results. You should consider it a bonus and be thankful for the extra work of the offficials when you are listed far back in the results, and not treat is as a right. If you feel you raced well and received a good workout, that is what really counts when you are out of the running.

Listing people far back is a recent occurrence, and most of the years I raced, if you were out of the top 15 you were not listed. For many years no one would have been aware I existed by looking at OBRA results.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Chip
Wondering the same thing

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Quenton Conant wrote:

Does this also mean that only the top 15 riders or so are going to get placed and/or have the race added onto their yearly results and the rest of us are just outta luck?

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steven Beardsley

That usually depends on the officials. I think that we often get spoiled in
OBRA because our officials work hard to get results to the 87th place
person.

I finished Tabor last night, I was not in the results.

I need to race faster if I really want my name in the results. Sounds like
you may need to also.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Quenton Conant
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:21 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tabor 4/5

Does this also mean that only the top 15 riders or so are going to get
placed and/or have the race added onto their yearly results and the rest of
us are just outta luck?

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chip

Wondering the same thing

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Quenton Conant wrote:

> Does this also mean that only the top 15 riders or so are going to get
> placed and/or have the race added onto their yearly results and the rest of
> us are just outta luck?
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Quenton Conant

Does this also mean that only the top 15 riders or so are going to get placed and/or have the race added onto their yearly results and the rest of us are just outta luck?

Clark Ritchie

It was a mistake.

Whereas the registration sheets we used to use had 25 lines/riders each, the
new ones apparently have 30. Ergo, we set out three sheets thinking that
when they were all full, we'd close the category. Hence 90 riders.

--Clark

--
Clark Ritchie

Jim Stuck

Why did the Tabor 4/5 race have 90 riders? This field is limited to 75 riders. I am not complaining, I just think that if you allow Tabor to do it you must let all the other races do the same, such as the Elkhorn and a few others that have filled the 4/5 race.