Re: Tubeless clinchers - fad or

Patrick wilder

2008-07-09

I'll answer this. I have had 2 "catastrophic" flats with the tubeless.
 
I'll preface by saying in both instances the puncture would have damaged ANY tyre.
 
1. HW 30 (could there be a worse enviroment to test?)  I put a large 2 inch staple through the sidewall.  It broke the bead and actually blew the tyre off the rim.  Very sketchy to say the least on HW 30.
 
2. Last week going down Lolo Pass gravel section, another puncture which tore the sidewall.  Probably a large sharp rock.  This time the tyre stayed on the rim.
 
My theory would be that puncutureing and breaking the bead is rare.  In that case it tyre did not stay on the rim.  In the other case it did, so perhaps a bit less "unpredictable" than normal?
 
 
 

 
~Patrick
www.pwildertherapy.com
 
 

  
 

--- On Wed, 7/9/08, David Auker wrote:

From: David Auker
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
To: "hrdtduck"
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 7:56 AM

How do they fit the rim?  Easy on/off?  How about a catastrophic flat...big puncture/blow-out...are they characteristic of clinchers, unpredictable about staying on the rim?  If so, the sew-up is probably safer in Grand Tour type racing.  Just a thought.

David

hrdtduck wrote:

What you say is true the weigh difference is minor at best…but two large differences….cost of the tire itself, and ease of use, make for a pretty strong argument for tubeless….to fix a flat out on the road all I have to carry is a tube, & a dollar (for those big holes)….what can you do when a sew-up flats on the road?...do you carry a spare tire when you ride?..... not to mention the issue of trying to put a replacement tire on over a previously glued rim…when it all boils down to it….sew-ups probably ride better overall, but I think the new technology will replace the old in time….I have been told/& read that some teams are already using tubeless on this year’s Tour…..It is only a matter of time…Have you tried them?? I was so amazed I bought 2 wheel sets (perhaps excessive, but I am kinda like that about bicycling)…..
 
 
Howard
 

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Harry Phinney
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:01 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
 
On ride comfort, are the tubeless really more comfortable than e.g. 25 mm Vittoria Evo Open CX tires or 25 mm Michelin Carbons at 90 PSI? On weight, the tubeless tires save little. Excel lists the Hutchinson tubeless tires at 290 g. To that you need to add the weight of the valve. An old bolt-on presta from a tube I have weighs 7 g, so call the tubeless a total of 297 g. The 25 mm Vittoria weighs 242 g, and a latex tube I had lying around weighs 60 g for a total of 302 g. The tubeless saves 5 grams in this example, with no sealant. Perhaps I should add the weight of a rim strip for the tube case. A Rox strip such as I use in my racing wheels weighs around 3 g, making the tubeless weight advantage 8 g. I honestly can’t remember the last time that I pinch flatted a 25 mm tire, but I do ride them at 100-110 PSI, not 90 PSI. While I am obviously skeptical of the performance claims for them, I’m really not opposed to the idea of tubeless tires. I much
prefer them on my motorcycles; they’re harder to repair for flats, but easier to change and I replace worn tires more than I repair flats on the motos.
 
Harry Phinney
 

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of hrdtduck
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 1:56 PM
To: 'Erik'; 'Doug Sears'; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
 
I have to agree over the thought that when you spend a lot of money on something you tend to ignore what may not meet your expectations….However if there were nothing else to evaluate…..the ride comfort alone sells me on the tubeless clincher tire….From what I understand about the specific Shimano/Hutchinson technology, lower air pressure is designed in and not necessarily the root/only cause for smoother ride experience…even at the lower air pressure rolling resistance is claimed to be lower (I do not have any way to test that so I have to depend on what Shimano & Hutchinson have to say, after all, why would they lie?? Hey Look I know what you are going to say…)…All I really know is what my butt, hands and average ride speeds tell me…they all have improved…..Bonus?? No more pinch flats!!.....if I do get a flat I can put a tube in as easily as a regular clincher, and be on my way. I save a small about of weight (no tube), while the tires
aren’t cheap they cost no more than any high end clincher and less that tubular…..and I get a great ride, they also seem to conform to the road better when in a high speed corner…..Like disc brakes on Mountain bikes…I don’t think I will be going back to the older technology……
 Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.6/1540 - Release Date: 7/8/2008 6:33 AM

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


 
From May.
http://app.obra.org/posts/obra/show/43923

Summary:  No it won't work.  Maybe a steel bead with under 90 psi... , but certainly not kevlar.  it has to with how the pressure pushes the bead against the hook.  With a tube the "seal point" is different (down lower) than with a tubeless, so there ends up being more force pushing a conventional tubed clincher bead against the hook.     
 
Tubeless relies a lot on the hoop or circumferntial stiffness of the bead, thus the high modulus carbon fiber bead... so sort of  more like motorcycle or car tubeless  where there is no hook just a very very stiff bead. 

john m schmidt, pe
portland oregon

--- On Wed, 7/9/08, Andre Pinter wrote:

From: Andre Pinter
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wednesday, July 9, 2008, 9:50 AM

Has anyone ever set up a non-ust tire tubeless for the road? I know that for
mountain bikes (which have their obvious difference of being lower pressure,
higher volume) a non-ust tire set up with tubeless is a viable option.

I've had excellent luck setting up a non-ust michelin tire on my shimano
xtr 960 era wheelset, with nothing more than sealant and a floor pump.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Andre Pinter

2008-07-09

Has anyone ever set up a non-ust tire tubeless for the road? I know that for mountain bikes (which have their obvious difference of being lower pressure, higher volume) a non-ust tire set up with tubeless is a viable option.

I've had excellent luck setting up a non-ust michelin tire on my shimano xtr 960 era wheelset, with nothing more than sealant and a floor pump.


David Auker

2008-07-09


How do they fit the rim?  Easy on/off?  How about
a catastrophic flat...big puncture/blow-out...are they characteristic
of clinchers, unpredictable about staying on the rim?  If so, the
sew-up is probably safer in Grand Tour type racing.  Just a thought.



David



hrdtduck wrote:





<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Comic Sans MS";
panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Comic Sans MS";
text-shadow:auto;
font-style:italic;
text-decoration:none none;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Comic Sans MS";
text-shadow:auto;
font-style:italic;
text-decoration:none none;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->


What you say is
true the weigh difference is minor at best…but
two large differences….cost of the tire itself, and ease of use,
make for a pretty strong argument for tubeless….to fix a flat out on
the
road all I have to carry is a tube, & a dollar (for those big
holes)….what
can you do when a sew-up flats on the road?...do you carry a spare tire
when
you ride?..... not to mention the issue of trying to put a replacement
tire on
over a previously glued rim…when it all boils down to it….sew-ups
probably
ride better overall, but I think the new technology will replace the
old in
time….I have been told/& read that some teams are already using
tubeless on this year’s Tour…..It is only a matter of time…Have
you tried them?? I was so amazed I bought 2 wheel sets (perhaps
excessive, but
I am kinda like that about bicycling)…..


 


 


Howard


 




From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of
Harry
Phinney

Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:01 AM

To: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or




 


On
ride comfort, are the tubeless really more comfortable than
e.g. 25 mm Vittoria Evo Open CX tires or 25 mm Michelin Carbons at 90
PSI? On
weight, the tubeless tires save little. Excel lists the Hutchinson
tubeless
tires at 290 g. To that you need to add the weight of the valve. An old
bolt-on
presta from a tube I have weighs 7 g, so call the tubeless a total of
297 g.
The 25 mm Vittoria weighs 242 g, and a latex tube I had lying around
weighs 60
g for a total of 302 g. The tubeless saves 5 grams in this example,
with no
sealant. Perhaps I should add the weight of a rim strip for the tube
case. A
Rox strip such as I use in my racing wheels weighs around 3 g, making
the
tubeless weight advantage 8 g. I honestly can’t remember the last time
that I pinch flatted a 25 mm tire, but I do ride them at 100-110 PSI,
not 90
PSI. While I am obviously skeptical of the performance claims for them,
I’m really not opposed to the idea of tubeless tires. I much prefer
them
on my motorcycles; they’re harder to repair for flats, but easier to
change and I replace worn tires more than I repair flats on the motos.


 


Harry
Phinney


 




From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of
hrdtduck

Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 1:56 PM

To: 'Erik'; 'Doug Sears'; obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or




 


I have to agree
over the thought that when you spend a lot of
money on something you tend to ignore what may not meet your
expectations….However if there were nothing else to evaluate…..the
ride comfort alone sells me on the tubeless clincher tire….From what I
understand about the specific Shimano/Hutchinson technology, lower air
pressure
is designed in and not necessarily the root/only cause for smoother
ride
experience…even at the lower air pressure rolling resistance is claimed
to be lower (I do not have any way to test that so I have to depend on
what
Shimano & Hutchinson have to say, after all, why would they lie??
Hey Look
I know what you are going to say…)…All I really know is what my
butt, hands and average ride speeds tell me…they all have
improved…..Bonus?? No more pinch flats!!.....if I do get a flat I can
put
a tube in as easily as a regular clincher, and be on my way. I save a
small
about of weight (no tube), while the tires aren’t cheap they cost no
more
than any high end clincher and less that tubular…..and I get a great
ride, they also seem to conform to the road better when in a high speed
corner…..Like disc brakes on Mountain bikes…I don’t think I
will be going back to the older technology……


 



Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 

Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.6/1540 - Release Date: 7/8/2008 6:33 AM




_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


hrdtduck

2008-07-09

What you say is true the weigh difference is minor at best.but two large
differences..cost of the tire itself, and ease of use, make for a pretty
strong argument for tubeless..to fix a flat out on the road all I have to
carry is a tube, & a dollar (for those big holes)..what can you do when a
sew-up flats on the road?...do you carry a spare tire when you ride?.....
not to mention the issue of trying to put a replacement tire on over a
previously glued rim.when it all boils down to it..sew-ups probably ride
better overall, but I think the new technology will replace the old in
time..I have been told/& read that some teams are already using tubeless on
this year's Tour...It is only a matter of time.Have you tried them?? I was
so amazed I bought 2 wheel sets (perhaps excessive, but I am kinda like that
about bicycling)...

Howard

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Harry Phinney
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:01 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or

On ride comfort, are the tubeless really more comfortable than e.g. 25 mm
Vittoria Evo Open CX tires or 25 mm Michelin Carbons at 90 PSI? On weight,
the tubeless tires save little. Excel lists the Hutchinson tubeless tires at
290 g. To that you need to add the weight of the valve. An old bolt-on
presta from a tube I have weighs 7 g, so call the tubeless a total of 297 g.
The 25 mm Vittoria weighs 242 g, and a latex tube I had lying around weighs
60 g for a total of 302 g. The tubeless saves 5 grams in this example, with
no sealant. Perhaps I should add the weight of a rim strip for the tube
case. A Rox strip such as I use in my racing wheels weighs around 3 g,
making the tubeless weight advantage 8 g. I honestly can't remember the last
time that I pinch flatted a 25 mm tire, but I do ride them at 100-110 PSI,
not 90 PSI. While I am obviously skeptical of the performance claims for
them, I'm really not opposed to the idea of tubeless tires. I much prefer
them on my motorcycles; they're harder to repair for flats, but easier to
change and I replace worn tires more than I repair flats on the motos.

Harry Phinney

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of hrdtduck
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 1:56 PM
To: 'Erik'; 'Doug Sears'; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or

I have to agree over the thought that when you spend a lot of money on
something you tend to ignore what may not meet your expectations..However if
there were nothing else to evaluate...the ride comfort alone sells me on the
tubeless clincher tire..From what I understand about the specific
Shimano/Hutchinson technology, lower air pressure is designed in and not
necessarily the root/only cause for smoother ride experience.even at the
lower air pressure rolling resistance is claimed to be lower (I do not have
any way to test that so I have to depend on what Shimano & Hutchinson have
to say, after all, why would they lie?? Hey Look I know what you are going
to say.).All I really know is what my butt, hands and average ride speeds
tell me.they all have improved...Bonus?? No more pinch flats!!.....if I do
get a flat I can put a tube in as easily as a regular clincher, and be on my
way. I save a small about of weight (no tube), while the tires aren't cheap
they cost no more than any high end clincher and less that tubular...and I
get a great ride, they also seem to conform to the road better when in a
high speed corner...Like disc brakes on Mountain bikes.I don't think I will
be going back to the older technology..


Harry Phinney

2008-07-09

On ride comfort, are the tubeless really more comfortable than e.g. 25 mm
Vittoria Evo Open CX tires or 25 mm Michelin Carbons at 90 PSI? On weight,
the tubeless tires save little. Excel lists the Hutchinson tubeless tires at
290 g. To that you need to add the weight of the valve. An old bolt-on
presta from a tube I have weighs 7 g, so call the tubeless a total of 297 g.
The 25 mm Vittoria weighs 242 g, and a latex tube I had lying around weighs
60 g for a total of 302 g. The tubeless saves 5 grams in this example, with
no sealant. Perhaps I should add the weight of a rim strip for the tube
case. A Rox strip such as I use in my racing wheels weighs around 3 g,
making the tubeless weight advantage 8 g. I honestly can't remember the last
time that I pinch flatted a 25 mm tire, but I do ride them at 100-110 PSI,
not 90 PSI. While I am obviously skeptical of the performance claims for
them, I'm really not opposed to the idea of tubeless tires. I much prefer
them on my motorcycles; they're harder to repair for flats, but easier to
change and I replace worn tires more than I repair flats on the motos.

Harry Phinney

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of hrdtduck
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 1:56 PM
To: 'Erik'; 'Doug Sears'; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or

I have to agree over the thought that when you spend a lot of money on
something you tend to ignore what may not meet your expectations..However if
there were nothing else to evaluate...the ride comfort alone sells me on the
tubeless clincher tire..From what I understand about the specific
Shimano/Hutchinson technology, lower air pressure is designed in and not
necessarily the root/only cause for smoother ride experience.even at the
lower air pressure rolling resistance is claimed to be lower (I do not have
any way to test that so I have to depend on what Shimano & Hutchinson have
to say, after all, why would they lie?? Hey Look I know what you are going
to say.).All I really know is what my butt, hands and average ride speeds
tell me.they all have improved...Bonus?? No more pinch flats!!.....if I do
get a flat I can put a tube in as easily as a regular clincher, and be on my
way. I save a small about of weight (no tube), while the tires aren't cheap
they cost no more than any high end clincher and less that tubular...and I
get a great ride, they also seem to conform to the road better when in a
high speed corner...Like disc brakes on Mountain bikes.I don't think I will
be going back to the older technology..


david baker

2008-07-08

Good point,
I know with mt bike tires I decided to go "UST only" after a couple of problems trying to piece things together, I am sure there are some combos that work fine. But if I am out of town and tear a sidewall I want to go into a bike shop with confidence and just simply ask for a ust tire.
For me it is all about simplicity, reliability, and most of all the performance you get with tubeless, I would rather put down tube shifters, a kick-stand, and reflectors on my wheels before going back to tubes.
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Voldengen
To: OBRA list
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or

Kinda veering of course here, but...

I don't have any experience with road tubeless, but I've been considering converting a pair of ksyriums over for a good year now.

I do have experience using tubeless clinchers for cyclocross, though. The bead design on the rim DOES make a difference, as does the design of the rim. Width, depth of drop channel (from bead to spoke bed), and maybe even bead design all make a difference.

Tubeless specific rims have a tubeless friendly bead. I am pretty sure it's a mixed bag with everything else out there. Some rims will work great, some will not. That's most likely why Hutchinson says it does not work on other wheels, because it doesn't work on ALL other wheels.

Stans does sell conversion kits, just as they do for MTB and now cyclocross. But they don't tell you what rims and tires work best, and even then, I don't believe their "data" is reliable. I followed their advice 100% and ended up rolling a tire off in my first 'cross race. I then called Cyclepath, and followed Bill's advice to arrive at a very reliable solution.

So you need to figure it out for yourself, and trial and error on pavement isn't something I'm super pumped to try. Just because Stans sells a conversion kit doesn't mean it's going to be as reliable as the Shimano wheels. I just wanted to make sure that was clear to everyone considering trying this out.

I'm not saying don't try it, just to be careful with what you try it with.

-Erik

2008/7/8 :

That is interesting as Hutchinson says it does not work on other wheels due to the lack of a larger hook in the rim for the bead in other wheels. On the other hand, it is hard to argue with experience and it would be nice to have more options.

Apparently, Camply and Specialized (using Campy rims) are making wheels for tubeless tires as well, but those will be expensive options.

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Erik Voldengen

2008-07-08

Kinda veering of course here, but...

I don't have any experience with road tubeless, but I've been considering
converting a pair of ksyriums over for a good year now.

I do have experience using tubeless clinchers for cyclocross, though. The
bead design on the rim DOES make a difference, as does the design of the
rim. Width, depth of drop channel (from bead to spoke bed), and maybe even
bead design all make a difference.

Tubeless specific rims have a tubeless friendly bead. I am pretty sure it's
a mixed bag with everything else out there. Some rims will work great, some
will not. That's most likely why Hutchinson says it does not work on other
wheels, because it doesn't work on ALL other wheels.

Stans does sell conversion kits, just as they do for MTB and now
cyclocross. But they don't tell you what rims and tires work best, and even
then, I don't believe their "data" is reliable. I followed their advice
100% and ended up rolling a tire off in my first 'cross race. I then called
Cyclepath, and followed Bill's advice to arrive at a very reliable solution.

So you need to figure it out for yourself, and trial and error on pavement
isn't something I'm super pumped to try. Just because Stans sells a
conversion kit doesn't mean it's going to be as reliable as the Shimano
wheels. I just wanted to make sure that was clear to everyone considering
trying this out.

I'm not saying don't try it, just to be careful with what you try it with.

-Erik

2008/7/8 :

> That is interesting as Hutchinson says it does not work on other wheels due
> to the lack of a larger hook in the rim for the bead in other wheels. On
> the other hand, it is hard to argue with experience and it would be nice to
> have more options.
>
> Apparently, Camply and Specialized (using Campy rims) are making wheels for
> tubeless tires as well, but those will be expensive options.
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>


Matthew Klahn

2008-07-08

Note that the Specialized rims will be rebadged Campy rims:
http://velonews.com/article/78936

Still makes the two biggest component makers the rim suppliers for
tubeless rims. Kenda is also supposed to be making tubeless road tires.

Matthew Klahn

On Jul 8, 2008, at 2:31 PM, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:

> That is interesting as Hutchinson says it does not work on other
> wheels due to the lack of a larger hook in the rim for the bead in
> other wheels. On the other hand, it is hard to argue with
> experience and it would be nice to have more options.
>
> Apparently, Camply and Specialized (using Campy rims) are making
> wheels for tubeless tires as well, but those will be expensive
> options.
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Patrick wilder
> You all realize the Hutchensen Tubless Tyres will work on just about
> any rim right? No need to drop 9-1400 bucks.
>
>
> The tyres and rim strips and some Stans are all that is needed,
> although I'm running them on my Krysiums which do not need the rim
> strips.
>
> Shameless plug here, but talk to the guys at Cyclepath, they've set
> up 25 pairs of wheels now with no catastropic reports, on all types
> of rims. I've personally rode them on a Set of Eastons, above
> mentioned Krysiums and soon to set up a pair of Mavic Open's.
> Can't remember the last time I got a flat.
>
>
> I'll say this for sake of fairness, I have had 2 instances with
> severe punctures from a large nail and piece of ? which tore through
> the sidewall. In both of these cases, it would have damaged any
> tyre: tubeless, clincher or the beloved tubulars.
>
>
>
>
>
> ~Patrick
> www.pwildertherapy.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Erik wrote:
> From: Erik
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
> To: "Doug Sears" , obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:44 PM
>
> Tubeless Road Tires are a new enough product that there isn't much
> real-world data just yet. Nothing that the marketing department
> hasn't tampered with, at any rate.
>
> So all we have to go on at the present time is anecdotal reviews of
> people who now swear by Tubeless tires. I suppose if I dropped $900-
> $1400 on a new product, I'd want it to be everything I'd hoped for,
> too.
>
> But on the issue of rolling resistance, the best info I've found
> comes from Jobst Brandt:
>
> On Rolling Resistance -
> http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance.html
>
> On Tubulars -
> http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html
>
>
> > From: dsears@willamette.net
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:55:20 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
> >
> > I can't find any rolling resistance data on that page, nor any
> mention of
> > tubeless tires.
> >
> > --Doug Sears< BR>>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Cipale"
> > To: "Harry Phinney"
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
> >
> >
> > Harry Phinney wrote:
> >
> > > Does anybody have (pointers to) rolling resistance data for the
> tubeless
> > > vs tube question?
> >
> > Leave it to Sheldon Brown (RIP) to do the work for us:
> > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html
> >
> > Joe
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/m ailman /listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
> IM on your terms.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> From: Patrick wilder
> Date: July 8, 2008 2:21:01 PM PDT
> To: Doug Sears , obra@list.obra.org, Erik >
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


gschreckchat@comcast.net

2008-07-08

That is interesting as Hutchinson says it does not work on other wheels due to the lack of a larger hook in the rim for the bead in other wheels. On the other hand, it is hard to argue with experience and it would be nice to have more options.

Apparently, Camply and Specialized (using Campy rims) are making wheels for tubeless tires as well, but those will be expensive options.

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Patrick wilder
You all realize the Hutchensen Tubless Tyres will work on just about any rim right? No need to drop 9-1400 bucks.

The tyres and rim strips and some Stans are all that is needed, although I'm running them on my Krysiums which do not need the rim strips.

Shameless plug here, but talk to the guys at Cyclepath, they've set up 25 pairs of wheels now with no catastropic reports, on all types of rims. I've personally rode them on a Set of Eastons, above mentioned Krysiums and soon to set up a pair of Mavic Open's. Can't remember the last time I got a flat.

I'll say this for sake of fairness, I have had 2 instances with severe punctures from a large nail and piece of ? which tore through the sidewall. In both of these cases, it would have damaged any tyre: tubeless, clincher or the beloved tubulars.

~Patrick
www.pwildertherapy.com

--- On Tue, 7/8/08, Erik wrote:

From: Erik
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
To: "Doug Sears" , obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:44 PM

Tubeless Road Tires are a new enough product that there isn't much real-world data just yet. Nothing that the marketing department hasn't tampered with, at any rate.

So all we have to go on at the present time is anecdotal reviews of people who now swear by Tubeless tires. I suppose if I dropped $900-$1400 on a new product, I'd want it to be everything I'd hoped for, too.

But on the issue of rolling resistance, the best info I've found comes from Jobst Brandt:

On Rolling Resistance -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance.html

On Tubulars -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html

> From: dsears@willamette.net
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:55:20 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
> I can't find any rolling resistance data on that page, nor any mention of
> tubeless tires.
>
> --Doug Sears
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Cipale"
> To: "Harry Phinney"
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
>
> Harry Phinney wrote:
>
> > Does anybody have (pointers to) rolling resistance data for the tubeless
> > vs tube question?
>
> Leave it to Sheldon Brown (RIP) to do the work for us:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html
>
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. IM on your terms.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Patrick wilder

2008-07-08

You all realize the Hutchensen Tubless Tyres will work on just about any rim right? No need to drop 9-1400 bucks.
 
The tyres and rim strips and some Stans are all that is needed, although I'm running them on my Krysiums which do not need the rim strips.

Shameless plug here, but talk to the guys at Cyclepath, they've set up 25 pairs of wheels now with no catastropic reports, on all types of rims.  I've personally rode them on a Set of Eastons, above mentioned Krysiums and soon to set up a pair of Mavic Open's.   Can't remember the last time I got a flat.
 
I'll say this for sake of fairness, I have had 2 instances with severe punctures from a large nail and piece of ? which tore through the sidewall.  In both of these cases, it would have damaged any tyre:  tubeless, clincher or the beloved tubulars.
 
 

~Patrick
www.pwildertherapy.com
 
 

  
 

--- On Tue, 7/8/08, Erik wrote:

From: Erik
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
To: "Doug Sears" , obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 12:44 PM

#yiv1861674854 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1861674854 {
FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;}

Tubeless Road Tires are a new enough product that there isn't much real-world data just yet.  Nothing that the marketing department hasn't tampered with, at any rate.

So all we have to go on at the present time is anecdotal reviews of people who now swear by Tubeless tires.  I suppose if I dropped $900-$1400 on a new product, I'd want it to be everything I'd hoped for, too.

But on the issue of rolling resistance, the best info I've found comes from Jobst Brandt:

On Rolling Resistance -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance.html

On Tubulars -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html

> From: dsears@willamette.net
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:55:20 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
> I can't find any rolling resistance data on that page, nor any mention of
> tubeless tires.
>
> --Doug Sears
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Cipale"
> To: "Harry Phinney"
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
>
> Harry Phinney wrote:
>
> > Does anybody have (pointers to) rolling resistance data for the tubeless
> > vs tube question?
>
> Leave it to Sheldon Brown (RIP) to do the work for us:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html
>
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. IM on your terms. _______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


hrdtduck

2008-07-08

I have to agree over the thought that when you spend a lot of money on
something you tend to ignore what may not meet your expectations..However if
there were nothing else to evaluate...the ride comfort alone sells me on the
tubeless clincher tire..From what I understand about the specific
Shimano/Hutchinson technology, lower air pressure is designed in and not
necessarily the root/only cause for smoother ride experience.even at the
lower air pressure rolling resistance is claimed to be lower (I do not have
any way to test that so I have to depend on what Shimano & Hutchinson have
to say, after all, why would they lie?? Hey Look I know what you are going
to say.).All I really know is what my butt, hands and average ride speeds
tell me.they all have improved...Bonus?? No more pinch flats!!.....if I do
get a flat I can put a tube in as easily as a regular clincher, and be on my
way. I save a small about of weight (no tube), while the tires aren't cheap
they cost no more than any high end clincher and less that tubular...and I
get a great ride, they also seem to conform to the road better when in a
high speed corner...Like disc brakes on Mountain bikes.I don't think I will
be going back to the older technology..

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Erik
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 12:45 PM
To: Doug Sears; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or

Tubeless Road Tires are a new enough product that there isn't much
real-world data just yet. Nothing that the marketing department hasn't
tampered with, at any rate.

So all we have to go on at the present time is anecdotal reviews of people
who now swear by Tubeless tires. I suppose if I dropped $900-$1400 on a new
product, I'd want it to be everything I'd hoped for, too.

But on the issue of rolling resistance, the best info I've found comes from
Jobst Brandt:

On Rolling Resistance -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance.html

On Tubulars -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html

> From: dsears@willamette.net
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:55:20 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
> I can't find any rolling resistance data on that page, nor any mention of
> tubeless tires.
>
> --Doug Sears
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Cipale"
> To: "Harry Phinney"
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
>
> Harry Phinney wrote:
>
> > Does anybody have (pointers to) rolling resistance data for the tubeless

> > vs tube question?
>
> Leave it to Sheldon Brown (RIP) to do the work for us:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html
>
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_____

Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. IM on
your terms.


gschreckchat@comcast.net

2008-07-08

Money has nothing to do with it. I have bought plenty of over-priced crap in my time (anything made by Spinergy for example) and have no trouble admitting it to myself.

Rolling resistance occurs partially due to the friction between the tire and the tube, and by eliminating the tube, rolling resistance decreases. How much? I have no idea, but that is not why I bought them.

I just like the way they ride, and in that case, perception is everything. Also, without tubes, no pinch flats. Also, you can use tubes and other tires, and they are very good wheels used that way as well.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Erik
Tubeless Road Tires are a new enough product that there isn't much real-world data just yet. Nothing that the marketing department hasn't tampered with, at any rate.

So all we have to go on at the present time is anecdotal reviews of people who now swear by Tubeless tires. I suppose if I dropped $900-$1400 on a new product, I'd want it to be everything I'd hoped for, too.

But on the issue of rolling resistance, the best info I've found comes from Jobst Brandt:

On Rolling Resistance -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance.html

On Tubulars -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html

> From: dsears@willamette.net
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:55:20 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
> I can't find any rolling resistance data on that page, nor any mention of
> tubeless tires.
>
> --Doug Sears
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Cipale"
> To: "Harry Phinney"
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
>
> Harry Phinney wrote:
>
> > Does anybody have (pointers to) rolling resistance data for the tubeless
> > vs tube question?
>
> Leave it to Sheldon Brown (RIP) to do the work for us:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html
>
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger. IM on your terms.


Tubeless Road Tires are a new enough product that there isn't much real-world data just yet. Nothing that the marketing department hasn't tampered with, at any rate.

So all we have to go on at the present time is anecdotal reviews of people who now swear by Tubeless tires. I suppose if I dropped $900-$1400 on a new product, I'd want it to be everything I'd hoped for, too.

But on the issue of rolling resistance, the best info I've found comes from Jobst Brandt:

On Rolling Resistance -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance.html

On Tubulars -
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/rolling-resistance-tubular.html

> From: dsears@willamette.net
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:55:20 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
> I can't find any rolling resistance data on that page, nor any mention of
> tubeless tires.
>
> --Doug Sears
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Cipale"
> To: "Harry Phinney"
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or
>
>
> Harry Phinney wrote:
>
> > Does anybody have (pointers to) rolling resistance data for the tubeless
> > vs tube question?
>
> Leave it to Sheldon Brown (RIP) to do the work for us:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html
>
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_________________________________________________________________
Need to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008


Doug Sears

2008-07-08

I can't find any rolling resistance data on that page, nor any mention of
tubeless tires.

--Doug Sears

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Cipale"
To: "Harry Phinney"
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tubeless clinchers - fad or

Harry Phinney wrote:

> Does anybody have (pointers to) rolling resistance data for the tubeless
> vs tube question?

Leave it to Sheldon Brown (RIP) to do the work for us:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

Joe
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Joe Cipale

2008-07-08

Harry Phinney wrote:

> Does anybody have (pointers to) rolling resistance data for the tubeless vs tube question?

Leave it to Sheldon Brown (RIP) to do the work for us:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

Joe