gschreckchat@comcast.net

On that basis, lets give everyone a medal so everyone can feel good about themselves. It can be like summer camp or some of the recreational rides. Cycling is the only sport that I know where people become so obsessed with medals and winning a category instead of looking at their relative performance to their past performances and others. The race should be about competing and doing your best, bringing a piece of hardware home. Nice if it happens, but it should not be the focus. Slicing the categories so thin that nearly everyone is in the medal hunt only makes winning less meaningful (i.e your example-Mtn Bike races).

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "david baker"

Probably the same difference that it makes in mt biking where it is also a timed event in which your competitors don't affect your time.
We get more winners and there fore we generally have more FUN! Otherwise only the top three pros win at any event. Boring. Less participation.
----- Original Message -----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: Robert Hughes ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

Since a TT is a timed event and the other competitors in your field have no effect on your time, what difference does it really make?

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Robert Hughes

> I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned
> sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in
> a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using
> his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires
> skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My
> observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as
> it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the
> competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and
> 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races
> where riders are re lative ly evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not
> have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just
> slightly better than arbitrariness.
>
> Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast
> majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is
> there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It
> such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it
> should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Rob Hughes

Ok, thanks for the constructive criticism. I 'll happily refrain from further posts on this sunject.
Rob

Haverty, Chris

There is a downside to changing TT catagories to something other than the USA cycling system, particularly for riders that also race in other regions of the country.  Also, as has been mentioned, stage race categories could get muddled if we have different TT and road racing cats.
 

--- On Mon, 8/18/08, Robert Hughes wrote:

From: Robert Hughes
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 9:27 AM

I like the idea of many winners, and wouldn't want to change that. Changing
the way the TT is categorized wouldn't change the number of winners. On the
contrary, by placing well you would be upgraded into the next division, thus
making the divisions more meaningful. You could choose to race your age or your
division. Also, by having a seperate TT division, the Team Time Trial would
benefit by having teams of more evenly match racers. This would be safer and
more competetive, and allow for teams to be comprised of racers with similar TT
performance regardless of their Road category (how many teams dropped riders, or
had to "wait" for teammates?). Forgive my blind spot, but what is the
down side to changing the way we rank or categorize the TTs. I doubt the
multisport athletes would mind.
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Robert Hughes

I like the idea of many winners, and wouldn't want to change that. Changing the way the TT is categorized wouldn't change the number of winners. On the contrary, by placing well you would be upgraded into the next division, thus making the divisions more meaningful. You could choose to race your age or your division. Also, by having a seperate TT division, the Team Time Trial would benefit by having teams of more evenly match racers. This would be safer and more competetive, and allow for teams to be comprised of racers with similar TT performance regardless of their Road category (how many teams dropped riders, or had to "wait" for teammates?). Forgive my blind spot, but what is the down side to changing the way we rank or categorize the TTs. I doubt the multisport athletes would mind.

David Oliphant

Seems more of a organizationsl thing (cats, bar points, etc) for
promoters. More importantly, promoters always list overall times
anyway so seems it would'nt matter per George.

On 8/18/08, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
> Since a TT is a timed event and the other competitors in your field have no
> effect on your time, what difference does it really make?
>
> --
>
> George Schreck
> gschreckchat@comcast.net
> (503) 502-0425
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Robert Hughes
>
>> I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned
>> sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't
>> compete in
>> a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from
>> using
>> his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing
>> requires
>> skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My
>>
>> observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race
>> upgrades (as
>> it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the
>> competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and
>>
>> 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create
>> races
>> where riders are relatively evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why
>> not
>> have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is
>> just
>> slightly better than arbitrariness.
>>
>> Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the
>> vast
>> majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author.
>> Is
>> there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer.
>> It
>> such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps
>> it
>> should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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david baker

Probably the same difference that it makes in mt biking where it is also a timed event in which your competitors don't affect your time.
We get more winners and there fore we generally have more FUN! Otherwise only the top three pros win at any event. Boring. Less participation.
----- Original Message -----
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: Robert Hughes ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

Since a TT is a timed event and the other competitors in your field have no effect on your time, what difference does it really make?

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Robert Hughes

> I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned
> sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in
> a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using
> his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires
> skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My
> observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as
> it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the
> competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and
> 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races
> where riders are re lative ly evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not
> have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just
> slightly better than arbitrariness.
>
> Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast
> majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is
> there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It
> such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it
> should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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gschreckchat@comcast.net

Since a TT is a timed event and the other competitors in your field have no effect on your time, what difference does it really make?

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Robert Hughes

> I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned
> sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in
> a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using
> his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires
> skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My
> observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as
> it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the
> competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and
> 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races
> where riders are relatively evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not
> have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just
> slightly better than arbitrariness.
>
> Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast
> majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is
> there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It
> such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it
> should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Robert Hughes

I regret that my post came across as "sour grapes", and I never mentioned sandbagging. The person you refer to did nothing wrong, he couldn't compete in a different category because the current upgrade rules prevented him from using his TT results to upgrade. This is as it should be because pack racing requires skills and experience that cannot be obtained by racing in time trials. My observation is this: since TT results have no bearing on road race upgrades (as it should be), why should we use road race categories to describe the competitive level of a time trialist? Road race, track, mountain bike, and 'cross categories are designed to encourage competition and to create races where riders are relatively evenly matched on experience and fitness. Why not have the same for the time trials? Using road categories for the TT is just slightly better than arbitrariness.

Furthermore, why is it that whenever someone examines the status quo, the vast majority of responses are either sarcastic or belittle the post or author. Is there a better way to categorize the TT? Maybe no category is the answer. It such a different form of racing with completely unique equipment, perhaps it should be categorized separately from road racing, like 'cross or track.

jon.ragsdale@comcast.net

Only if the answer turns out to be 42

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Karsten Hagen

> Or, you could ride 2 40K Time Trials in one day. One as a your assigned
> category and one as your Time Trial category. Then, you could multiply both
> times by 3.14 and divide by 40. Then, of course you would also need to
> factor in drag coefficient, which for some riders is more than others. Then
> also subtract for local magnetic deviation. Those with 10 speed get a 1mph
> handicap.
>
> This will only get complicated when 11 speed is introduced.
>
>
>
>
> On 8/15/08 2:19 PM, "Long, Steve" wrote:
>
> > Using this logic, should we also force people like David Zimbleman to
> > only race with the cat 1/2 riders because he's, normally, as fast as
> > most of them, even though he also falls into the 50+ category?
> > So, David, you can't ride with the 50+ guys on Sunday because you ride
> > faster than them. :)
> >
> > Sounds a little whinny to me.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Rob Hughes
> > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:13 PM
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
> >
> > I am not suggesting that a new method of categorizing time trial
> > performance should have any bearing on a racer's ability to upgrade in
> > the road category. Also, if you race in a stage race then your TT time
> > would be compared to others in your TT category for the purpose of
> > determining TT rankings in the BAR (generally the TT course of a stage
> > race is the same across all categories). Your road category would
> > determine which group you raced in during the rest of the stage race.
> > For instance: if a racer's TT performances (whether part of a stage race
> > or not) consistently put him in the company of Cat 2 riders then he
> > would be cat 2 for TT. If he never scores a point in a road race or
> > criterium then he will forever be a cat 5 roady. This would make the
> > OBRA TT competition more meaningful.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Karsten Hagen

Or, you could ride 2 40K Time Trials in one day. One as a your assigned
category and one as your Time Trial category. Then, you could multiply both
times by 3.14 and divide by 40. Then, of course you would also need to
factor in drag coefficient, which for some riders is more than others. Then
also subtract for local magnetic deviation. Those with 10 speed get a 1mph
handicap.

This will only get complicated when 11 speed is introduced.

On 8/15/08 2:19 PM, "Long, Steve" wrote:

> Using this logic, should we also force people like David Zimbleman to
> only race with the cat 1/2 riders because he's, normally, as fast as
> most of them, even though he also falls into the 50+ category?
> So, David, you can't ride with the 50+ guys on Sunday because you ride
> faster than them. :)
>
> Sounds a little whinny to me.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Rob Hughes
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:13 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
>
> I am not suggesting that a new method of categorizing time trial
> performance should have any bearing on a racer's ability to upgrade in
> the road category. Also, if you race in a stage race then your TT time
> would be compared to others in your TT category for the purpose of
> determining TT rankings in the BAR (generally the TT course of a stage
> race is the same across all categories). Your road category would
> determine which group you raced in during the rest of the stage race.
> For instance: if a racer's TT performances (whether part of a stage race
> or not) consistently put him in the company of Cat 2 riders then he
> would be cat 2 for TT. If he never scores a point in a road race or
> criterium then he will forever be a cat 5 roady. This would make the
> OBRA TT competition more meaningful.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris Alling

Sounds like a conveluted record keeping nightmare.

> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:19:20 -0700> From: Steve.Long@clark.wa.gov> To: hughrobe@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions> > Using this logic, should we also force people like David Zimbleman to> only race with the cat 1/2 riders because he's, normally, as fast as> most of them, even though he also falls into the 50+ category?> So, David, you can't ride with the 50+ guys on Sunday because you ride> faster than them. :)> > Sounds a little whinny to me. > > -----Original Message-----> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On> Behalf Of Rob Hughes> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:13 PM> To: obra@list.obra.org> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions> > I am not suggesting that a new method of categorizing time trial> performance should have any bearing on a racer's ability to upgrade in> the road category. Also, if you race in a stage race then your TT time> would be compared to others in your TT category for the purpose of> determining TT rankings in the BAR (generally the TT course of a stage> race is the same across all categories). Your road category would> determine which group you raced in during the rest of the stage race.> For instance: if a racer's TT performances (whether part of a stage race> or not) consistently put him in the company of Cat 2 riders then he> would be cat 2 for TT. If he never scores a point in a road race or> criterium then he will forever be a cat 5 roady. This would make the> OBRA TT competition more meaningful.> _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org> _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Long, Steve

Using this logic, should we also force people like David Zimbleman to
only race with the cat 1/2 riders because he's, normally, as fast as
most of them, even though he also falls into the 50+ category?
So, David, you can't ride with the 50+ guys on Sunday because you ride
faster than them. :)

Sounds a little whinny to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Rob Hughes
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 2:13 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

I am not suggesting that a new method of categorizing time trial
performance should have any bearing on a racer's ability to upgrade in
the road category. Also, if you race in a stage race then your TT time
would be compared to others in your TT category for the purpose of
determining TT rankings in the BAR (generally the TT course of a stage
race is the same across all categories). Your road category would
determine which group you raced in during the rest of the stage race.
For instance: if a racer's TT performances (whether part of a stage race
or not) consistently put him in the company of Cat 2 riders then he
would be cat 2 for TT. If he never scores a point in a road race or
criterium then he will forever be a cat 5 roady. This would make the
OBRA TT competition more meaningful.
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Rob Hughes

I am not suggesting that a new method of categorizing time trial performance should have any bearing on a racer's ability to upgrade in the road category. Also, if you race in a stage race then your TT time would be compared to others in your TT category for the purpose of determining TT rankings in the BAR (generally the TT course of a stage race is the same across all categories). Your road category would determine which group you raced in during the rest of the stage race. For instance: if a racer's TT performances (whether part of a stage race or not) consistently put him in the company of Cat 2 riders then he would be cat 2 for TT. If he never scores a point in a road race or criterium then he will forever be a cat 5 roady. This would make the OBRA TT competition more meaningful.

craig austin

I was being a bit facetious by calling this person a sandbagger. I looked at
the results, and yeah, the guy's killing everyone in TTs (and has been
equally good at PIR, so it looks like he's gaining the pack experience he'll
need). I'm sure he'll be upgraded when appropriate and may end up being
another Sam Schartz (remember him from a few years ago, started the season
as a 4 and ended as a 2?). He's clearly very fast and I'm sure the upgrade
police will get him when the time comes.

Craig

2008/8/15 Fischer, Jim E (Corvallis)

> One issue with having categories with TTs is how the TTs mix in with road
> stage races. If one is a cat 2 at a TT, but a cat 3 as a road racer, then
> the stage race would need to cater to this separation. Not impossible, but
> somewhat tricky. However, it does make some sense.
>
> For the mountain bike side, XC may carry different categories than DH, DS
> and OT (all can be different).
>
> CCX, Track and Road Racing all allow categories to be different across the
> disciplines.
>
>
> You can enter ATB and CCX at whatever category you like since there are no real safety issues like with pack racing on the road or track. Mandatory upgrades apply both in ATB and CCX, however, for folks who clearly deserve it.
>
> Other than the impact to stage races, I don't see an issue having
> different categories for TT and Road Racing. Having judged stage races,
> however, I'm not excited at the prospect of sorting out results for a cat 3
> road racer who is a cat 2 TT racer...not sure how you'd solve that one.
> Omniums...no problem.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Fish
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Kristin
> *Sent:* Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
> *To:* Craig Austin
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org; Rob Hughes
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
>
> TT's don't count towards upgrade points on the road, as far as I know. So
> if you're < 30 and you're a time trial specialist (or a triathlete who only
> occasionally does a real TT), you will forever be stuck in the lower cats.
> Fair? I don't know. Maybe TTs need their own categories, or it should just
> be "senior men/women" without cats.
>
> k
>
> 2008/8/15 Craig Austin
>
>> We already do have that categorization. It's called "sandbagger."
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Rob Hughes
>> *Sent:* Fri 8/15/2008 11:23 AM
>> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
>>
>> Perhaps it is time to consider a seperate categorization for the time
>> trial when a Cat 4 rider is able to beat all the cat 3 riders, and all but 3
>> of the cat 1/2 riders. Also, how many age groups are enough, perhaps we
>> need to have winers for every age? Perhaps we need pre and postmenopausal
>> categories? Perhaps I should shut up?
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> www.runbikeswim.net
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

Fischer, Jim E (Corvallis)

One issue with having categories with TTs is how the TTs mix in with road stage races. If one is a cat 2 at a TT, but a cat 3 as a road racer, then the stage race would need to cater to this separation. Not impossible, but somewhat tricky. However, it does make some sense.

For the mountain bike side, XC may carry different categories than DH, DS and OT (all can be different).

CCX, Track and Road Racing all allow categories to be different across the disciplines.

You can enter ATB and CCX at whatever category you like since there are no real safety issues like with pack racing on the road or track. Mandatory upgrades apply both in ATB and CCX, however, for folks who clearly deserve it.

Other than the impact to stage races, I don't see an issue having different categories for TT and Road Racing. Having judged stage races, however, I'm not excited at the prospect of sorting out results for a cat 3 road racer who is a cat 2 TT racer...not sure how you'd solve that one. Omniums...no problem.

My two cents.

Fish

________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Kristin
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:31 AM
To: Craig Austin
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Rob Hughes
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

TT's don't count towards upgrade points on the road, as far as I know. So if you're < 30 and you're a time trial specialist (or a triathlete who only occasionally does a real TT), you will forever be stuck in the lower cats. Fair? I don't know. Maybe TTs need their own categories, or it should just be "senior men/women" without cats.

k

2008/8/15 Craig Austin >
We already do have that categorization. It's called "sandbagger."

Craig

________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Rob Hughes
Sent: Fri 8/15/2008 11:23 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

Perhaps it is time to consider a seperate categorization for the time trial when a Cat 4 rider is able to beat all the cat 3 riders, and all but 3 of the cat 1/2 riders. Also, how many age groups are enough, perhaps we need to have winers for every age? Perhaps we need pre and postmenopausal categories? Perhaps I should shut up?
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Chris Alling

I am glad that TTs do not count for upgrade points I would find nothing more scary than somebody who had been upgraded purely on TT points who then decides to jump in and do a cat 2 crit. Chris

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:31:29 -0700From: kristinw@gmail.comTo: austinc@exponent.comCC: obra@list.obra.org; hughrobe@comcast.netSubject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
TT's don't count towards upgrade points on the road, as far as I know. So if you're < 30 and you're a time trial specialist (or a triathlete who only occasionally does a real TT), you will forever be stuck in the lower cats. Fair? I don't know. Maybe TTs need their own categories, or it should just be "senior men/women" without cats.k
2008/8/15 Craig Austin

We already do have that categorization. It's called "sandbagger."

Craig

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Rob HughesSent: Fri 8/15/2008 11:23 AMTo: obra@list.obra.orgSubject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

Perhaps it is time to consider a seperate categorization for the time trial when a Cat 4 rider is able to beat all the cat 3 riders, and all but 3 of the cat 1/2 riders. Also, how many age groups are enough, perhaps we need to have winers for every age? Perhaps we need pre and postmenopausal categories? Perhaps I should shut up?_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org-- www.runbikeswim.net
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Tim Schauer

That's funny, because I didn't find a link on the obra site for the "sandbagger BAR" competition? But, I think back in 2003 or 2004 Candi told me I was in contention for the "Cat 4 sandbagging BAR" (we both thought it was funny!!!). This must be an offlist competition? :)

Please see the humor in this post...

-Tim Schauer

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Craig Austin
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:25 AM
To: Rob Hughes; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

We already do have that categorization. It's called "sandbagger."

Craig

________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Rob Hughes
Sent: Fri 8/15/2008 11:23 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

Perhaps it is time to consider a seperate categorization for the time trial when a Cat 4 rider is able to beat all the cat 3 riders, and all but 3 of the cat 1/2 riders. Also, how many age groups are enough, perhaps we need to have winers for every age? Perhaps we need pre and postmenopausal categories? Perhaps I should shut up?
_______________________________________________
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http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Kristin

TT's don't count towards upgrade points on the road, as far as I know. So if
you're < 30 and you're a time trial specialist (or a triathlete who only
occasionally does a real TT), you will forever be stuck in the lower cats.
Fair? I don't know. Maybe TTs need their own categories, or it should just
be "senior men/women" without cats.

k

2008/8/15 Craig Austin

> We already do have that categorization. It's called "sandbagger."
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Rob Hughes
> *Sent:* Fri 8/15/2008 11:23 AM
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
>
> Perhaps it is time to consider a seperate categorization for the time
> trial when a Cat 4 rider is able to beat all the cat 3 riders, and all but 3
> of the cat 1/2 riders. Also, how many age groups are enough, perhaps we
> need to have winers for every age? Perhaps we need pre and postmenopausal
> categories? Perhaps I should shut up?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--

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Jonathan Vinson

I always assume that these are highly competitive triathletes who
only race TTs and never qualify for upgrades since they don't do many
bike-only races and never do mass starts. I haven't drilled down on
the specific situation you're referring to, but I've certainly seen a
"cat 5" racer sweep nearly the whole field in a TT in other parts of
the country.
JV

2008/8/15 Craig Austin

> We already do have that categorization. It's called "sandbagger."
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Rob Hughes
> *Sent:* Fri 8/15/2008 11:23 AM
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions
>
> Perhaps it is time to consider a seperate categorization for the time
> trial when a Cat 4 rider is able to beat all the cat 3 riders, and all but 3
> of the cat 1/2 riders. Also, how many age groups are enough, perhaps we
> need to have winers for every age? Perhaps we need pre and postmenopausal
> categories? Perhaps I should shut up?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Craig Austin

We already do have that categorization. It's called "sandbagger."

Craig

________________________________

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Rob Hughes
Sent: Fri 8/15/2008 11:23 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Time Trial Divisions

Perhaps it is time to consider a seperate categorization for the time trial when a Cat 4 rider is able to beat all the cat 3 riders, and all but 3 of the cat 1/2 riders. Also, how many age groups are enough, perhaps we need to have winers for every age? Perhaps we need pre and postmenopausal categories? Perhaps I should shut up?
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rob Hughes

Perhaps it is time to consider a seperate categorization for the time trial when a Cat 4 rider is able to beat all the cat 3 riders, and all but 3 of the cat 1/2 riders. Also, how many age groups are enough, perhaps we need to have winers for every age? Perhaps we need pre and postmenopausal categories? Perhaps I should shut up?