Long, Steve wrote:
> Ahhhh, now we're talking.
> Chris' example below, exemplifies the everyone is above average theorem
> as if everyone is above average, above average is the new average and
> hence, average. Can anyone tell me who wants to be average?
> Did you folks not take statistics in college or something. :)
>
There are lies, damn lies, statisics... and weeny bike racers who want a medal no matter what.
Joe C
JoeBRA rider #001
Chris Alling wrote:
> I thought about this a great deal last night. I know sad.
Chris, you have way, way... WAAAAAAAY too much time on your hands...
>But we could set =
> up all TT racing as a bell curve. All times are put into a spread sheet in =
> order of finish from top to bottom. The organizer then takes the middle 70%=
> and calls them cat 3 for the purposes of that individual race and gives me=
> dals to the top three. Then pulls the next ten percent below and above and =
> calls them CAT 4 and CAT 2 respectively and gives out medals to them. The r=
> emaining top 5% are the CAT 1 and they get their medals and the bottom 5% a=
> re the CAT 5 for the day and they get their medals. This system will take c=
> are of all of those sandbagging Triatheletes, timetrial specialists and rac=
> ers who spend all of their money on special equipment to go fast. They will=
> not be able to sandbag their way to a CAT 4 state championship.=20
> =20
> In this system you can wait for days to find out what category you are and =
> if you finished in the top ten.
A good Excel hacker can put something together in less than an hour so it is doable...
> It adds to the anticipations and overall ex=
> citement. It is also conceivable that a CAT 1 could have a really shitty ti=
> me trial and win the CAT 5 race that day and go home feeling good about him=
> self because he is the CAT 5 champion.
> =20
> Although I still think that we should give Joe his own catagory and call it=
> JoeBRA.
And I will proudly wear my JoeBRA Champion jersey too all JoeBRA events and be envied by the rest of you slackers becuase you are not only unable, but inelegible to win a JoeBRA Champ jersey!
:)~
Dammit Chris,
NOW you are just being nonsensical! ;)
Joe
Haverty, Chris wrote:
> George,=20
> =A0
> That is silly.=A0 Obviously everyone=A0can't be the best.=A0=A0To be fair a=
> nd increase rider participation, we just need everyone to be above average.
> =A0
> Chris
>
> --- On Wed, 8/20/08, gschreckchat@comcast.net wr=
> ote:
>
> From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> To: "Karsten Hagen" , mike.murray@obra.org, obra@list.obra=
> .org
> Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 10:02 AM
>
>
>
> And on hill claims, we could weight the bikes and have differnt categories =
> for each rider by weight of bike.=A0=20
> =A0
> Some people have time to train more, which is not fair to those who do not =
> have the time or desire, so we could have categories by hours trained per w=
> eek.
> =A0
> We could have TT's broken down by shoulder width, becuase as we all know, p=
> eople with wide shoulders have a disadvantage aerodynamically.
> =A0
> I think if we are creative enough, we can ensure everyone goes home with a =
> gold medal and can be proud of themselves no mater how slow they are or how=
> little=A0effort they put in to the sport.
> =A0
> After all, it really is unfair that many people cannot say they are the bes=
> t.=A0 Everyone should be the best.
> =A0
> --
>
> George Schreck=20
> gschreckchat@comcast.net=20
> (503) 502-0425
> =A0
> -------------- Original message --------------=20
> From: Karsten Hagen =20
>
> > How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional"=20
> > category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH=
> =20
> > events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK).=
> =20
> > That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal.=
> =20
> >=20
> > Karsten=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:=20
> >=20
> > > TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multi=
> ple=20
> > > riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for=
> =20
> > > places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a si=
> ngle=20
> > > time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time=
> is < BR>> ; > a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. =
> In the past it=20
> > > was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done=
> =20
> > > with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage=20
> > > everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and=
> =20
> > > 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do thi=
> ngs=20
> > > so different from everyone else in the world.=20
> > >=20
> > > A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still=
> need=20
> > > to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It=
> =20
> > > would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone w=
> ants=20
> > > there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that =
> rule=20
> > > change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph o=
> f the=20
> > > rules.=20
> > >=20
> > > An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall resu=
> lts=20
> > > for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be=
> =20
> > > secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age=
> =20
> > > groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a singl=
> e=20
> > > rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place=
> 35+.=20
> > >=20
> > > I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should =
> be=20
> > > over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars=
> and=20
> > > aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal=
> =20
> > > benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only li=
> kely=20
> > > to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage ra=
> ce=20
> > > TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally=
> =20
> > > effected.=20
> > & gt;=20
> > > Mike=20
> > >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----=20
> > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On=
> =20
> > > Behalf Of Brian=20
> > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM=20
> > > To: obra@list.obra.org=20
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.=20
> > >=20
> > > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its =
> own=20
> > > institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,=
> =20
> > > this post isn't for you.=20
> > >=20
> > > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they =
> do it=20
> > > in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it ha=
> s=20
> > > here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of=
> =20
> &g t; > fair competition and success.=20
> > >=20
> > > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, i=
> t=20
> > > would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement =
> and=20
> > > beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the pod=
> ium=20
> > > and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. Bu=
> t=20
> > > that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.=20
> > >=20
> > > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct disci=
> pline=20
> > > than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design =
> that=20
> > > it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the s=
> ake=20
> > > of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has li=
> ttle=20
> > > to do with the actual concept of a stage race.=20
> > >=20
> > > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get t hem out of th=
> e=20
> > > garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a sepa=
> rate=20
> > > discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more=
> =20
> > > attractive purchases and encourage using them more.=20
> > >=20
> > > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a=20
> > > subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclis=
> ts=20
> > > entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood=20
> > > Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and rid=
> ing a=20
> > > min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of bik=
> ing=20
> > > he does.=20
> > >=20
> > > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > Erik wrote:=20
> > >=20
> > > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lu nch an d THEN wr=
> ote=20
> > > that.=20
> > > _______________________________________________=20
> > > OBRA mailing list=20
> > > obra@list.obra.org=20
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra=20
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org=20
> > >=20
> > > _______________________________________________=20
> > > OBRA mailing list=20
> > > obra@list.obra.org=20
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra=20
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________=20
> > OBRA mailing list=20
> > obra@list.obra.org=20
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra=20
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org _____________________________=
> __________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> =20=20=20=20=20=20=
Ahhhh, now we're talking.
Chris' example below, exemplifies the everyone is above average theorem
as if everyone is above average, above average is the new average and
hence, average. Can anyone tell me who wants to be average?
Did you folks not take statistics in college or something. :)
________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Alling
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 10:35 AM
To: gschreckchat@comcast.net; Karsten Hagen; mike.murray@obra.org;
obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
I thought about this a great deal last night. I know sad. But we could
set up all TT racing as a bell curve. All times are put into a spread
sheet in order of finish from top to bottom. The organizer then takes
the middle 70% and calls them cat 3 for the purposes of that individual
race and gives medals to the top three. Then pulls the next ten percent
below and above and calls them CAT 4 and CAT 2 respectively and gives
out medals to them. The remaining top 5% are the CAT 1 and they get
their medals and the bottom 5% are the CAT 5 for the day and they get
their medals. This system will take care of all of those sandbagging
Triatheletes, timetrial specialists and racers who spend all of their
money on special equipment to go fast. They will not be able to sandbag
their way to a CAT 4 state championship.
In this system you can wait for days to find out what category you are
and if you finished in the top ten. It adds to the anticipations and
overall excitement. It is also conceivable that a CAT 1 could have a
really shitty time trial and win the CAT 5 race that day and go home
feeling good about himself because he is the CAT 5 champion.
Although I still think that we should give Joe his own catagory and call
it JoeBRA.
________________________________
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
To: hagenkt@mac.com; mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:02:58 +0000
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
And on hill claims, we could weight the bikes and have differnt
categories for each rider by weight of bike.
Some people have time to train more, which is not fair to those who do
not have the time or desire, so we could have categories by hours
trained per week.
We could have TT's broken down by shoulder width, becuase as we all
know, people with wide shoulders have a disadvantage aerodynamically.
I think if we are creative enough, we can ensure everyone goes home with
a gold medal and can be proud of themselves no mater how slow they are
or how little effort they put in to the sport.
After all, it really is unfair that many people cannot say they are the
best. Everyone should be the best.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Karsten Hagen
> How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a
"traditional"
> category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category
in some DH
> events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed
(skinsuits OK).
> That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a
district medal.
>
> Karsten
>
>
> On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:
>
> > TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there
would be multiple
> > riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple
riders tied for
> > places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs
because a single
> > time is given for all riders that finish in a group
together. Pack time is < BR>> ; > a reasonable method and is done
universally in bike racing. In the past it
> > was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This
could be done
> > with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to
encourage
> > everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time
between 20th and
> > 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for
us to do things
> > so different from everyone else in the world.
> >
> > A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races
will still need
> > to be divided by road category and will still need to
include a TT. It
> > would also require a fair amount more administrative work.
If someone wants
> > there to be separate categories for they can feel free to
propose that rule
> > change through the rule change process outline in the first
paragraph of the
> > rules.
> >
> > An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce
overall results
> > for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There
could then be
> > secondary results done for specific groups; individual
categories, age
> > groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason
why a single
> > rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4
and 2nd place 35+.
> >
> > I also don't think that the importance of TT specific
equipment should be
> > over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a
skinsuit, TT bars and
> > aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff
provides minimal
> > benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment
is only likely
> > to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride
a stage race
> > TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be
minimally
> > effected.
> & gt;
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Brian
> > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
> >
> > I think it is important for an organization to be able to
reassess its own
> > institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in
doing that,
> > this post isn't for you.
> >
> > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that
is how they do it
> > in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer
than it has
> > here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the
illusion of
&g t; > fair competition and success.
> >
> > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer
out there, it
> > would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own
improvement and
> > beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting
on the podium
> > and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local
cycling. But
> > that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
> >
> > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely
distinct discipline
> > than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage
race design that
> > it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment
simply for the sake
> > of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at
it, TT has little
> > to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
> >
> > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get t
hem out of the
> > garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of
TT as a separate
> > discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make
them more
> > attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
> >
> > And finally, I believe that the perception that time
trialing is a
> > subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for
new cyclists
> > entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch
Mt. Hood
> > Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a
mutant and riding a
> > min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the
kind of biking
> > he does.
> >
> > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erik wrote:
> >
> > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lu nch
an d THEN wrote
> > that.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
________________________________
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I thought about this a great deal last night. I know sad. But we could set up all TT racing as a bell curve. All times are put into a spread sheet in order of finish from top to bottom. The organizer then takes the middle 70% and calls them cat 3 for the purposes of that individual race and gives medals to the top three. Then pulls the next ten percent below and above and calls them CAT 4 and CAT 2 respectively and gives out medals to them. The remaining top 5% are the CAT 1 and they get their medals and the bottom 5% are the CAT 5 for the day and they get their medals. This system will take care of all of those sandbagging Triatheletes, timetrial specialists and racers who spend all of their money on special equipment to go fast. They will not be able to sandbag their way to a CAT 4 state championship.
In this system you can wait for days to find out what category you are and if you finished in the top ten. It adds to the anticipations and overall excitement. It is also conceivable that a CAT 1 could have a really shitty time trial and win the CAT 5 race that day and go home feeling good about himself because he is the CAT 5 champion.
Although I still think that we should give Joe his own catagory and call it JoeBRA.
From: gschreckchat@comcast.netTo: hagenkt@mac.com; mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.orgDate: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:02:58 +0000Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
And on hill claims, we could weight the bikes and have differnt categories for each rider by weight of bike.
Some people have time to train more, which is not fair to those who do not have the time or desire, so we could have categories by hours trained per week.
We could have TT's broken down by shoulder width, becuase as we all know, people with wide shoulders have a disadvantage aerodynamically.
I think if we are creative enough, we can ensure everyone goes home with a gold medal and can be proud of themselves no mater how slow they are or how little effort they put in to the sport.
After all, it really is unfair that many people cannot say they are the best. Everyone should be the best.
--George Schreck gschreckchat@comcast.net (503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message -------------- From: Karsten Hagen > How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional" > category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH > events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK). > That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal. > > Karsten > > > On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote: > > > TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multiple > > riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for > > places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a single > > time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time is < BR>> ; > a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. In the past it > > was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done > > with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage > > everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and > > 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do things > > so different from everyone else in the world. > > > > A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still need > > to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It > > would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone wants > > there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that rule > > change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph of the > > rules. > > > > An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall results > > for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be > > secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age > > groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a single > > rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place 35+. > > > > I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should be > > over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars and > > aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal > > benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only likely > > to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage race > > TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally > > effected. > & gt; > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On > > Behalf Of Brian > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM > > To: obra@list.obra.org > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch > > > > > > > > > > > > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately. > > > > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own > > institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that, > > this post isn't for you. > > > > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it > > in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has > > here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of &g t; > fair competition and success. > > > > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it > > would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and > > beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium > > and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But > > that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality. > > > > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline > > than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that > > it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake > > of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little > > to do with the actual concept of a stage race. > > > > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get t hem out of the > > garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate > > discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more > > attractive purchases and encourage using them more. > > > > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a > > subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists > > entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood > > Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a > > min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking > > he does. > > > > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer... > > > > > > > > > > > > Erik wrote: > > > > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lu nch an d THEN wrote > > that. > > _______________________________________________ > > OBRA mailing list > > obra@list.obra.org > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > OBRA mailing list > > obra@list.obra.org > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org > > > _______________________________________________ > OBRA mailing list > obra@list.obra.org > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_________________________________________________________________
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George,
That is silly. Obviously everyone can't be the best. To be fair and increase rider participation, we just need everyone to be above average.
Chris
--- On Wed, 8/20/08, gschreckchat@comcast.net wrote:
From: gschreckchat@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
To: "Karsten Hagen" , mike.murray@obra.org, obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 10:02 AM
And on hill claims, we could weight the bikes and have differnt categories for each rider by weight of bike.
Some people have time to train more, which is not fair to those who do not have the time or desire, so we could have categories by hours trained per week.
We could have TT's broken down by shoulder width, becuase as we all know, people with wide shoulders have a disadvantage aerodynamically.
I think if we are creative enough, we can ensure everyone goes home with a gold medal and can be proud of themselves no mater how slow they are or how little effort they put in to the sport.
After all, it really is unfair that many people cannot say they are the best. Everyone should be the best.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Karsten Hagen
> How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional"
> category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH
> events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK).
> That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal.
>
> Karsten
>
>
> On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:
>
> > TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multiple
> > riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for
> > places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a single
> > time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time is < BR>> ; > a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. In the past it
> > was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done
> > with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage
> > everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and
> > 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do things
> > so different from everyone else in the world.
> >
> > A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still need
> > to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It
> > would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone wants
> > there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that rule
> > change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph of the
> > rules.
> >
> > An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall results
> > for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be
> > secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age
> > groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a single
> > rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place 35+.
> >
> > I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should be
> > over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars and
> > aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal
> > benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only likely
> > to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage race
> > TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally
> > effected.
> & gt;
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Brian
> > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
> >
> > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own
> > institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
> > this post isn't for you.
> >
> > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it
> > in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has
> > here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
&g t; > fair competition and success.
> >
> > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
> > would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
> > beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
> > and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
> > that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
> >
> > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline
> > than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that
> > it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake
> > of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little
> > to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
> >
> > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get t hem out of the
> > garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
> > discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
> > attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
> >
> > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
> > subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
> > entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood
> > Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a
> > min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking
> > he does.
> >
> > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erik wrote:
> >
> > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lu nch an d THEN wrote
> > that.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org _______________________________________________
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And on hill claims, we could weight the bikes and have differnt categories for each rider by weight of bike.
Some people have time to train more, which is not fair to those who do not have the time or desire, so we could have categories by hours trained per week.
We could have TT's broken down by shoulder width, becuase as we all know, people with wide shoulders have a disadvantage aerodynamically.
I think if we are creative enough, we can ensure everyone goes home with a gold medal and can be proud of themselves no mater how slow they are or how little effort they put in to the sport.
After all, it really is unfair that many people cannot say they are the best. Everyone should be the best.
--
George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Karsten Hagen
> How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional"
> category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH
> events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK).
> That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal.
>
> Karsten
>
>
> On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:
>
> > TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multiple
> > riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for
> > places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a single
> > time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time is
> > a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. In the past it
> > was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done
> > with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage
> > everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and
> > 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do things
> > so different from everyone else in the world.
> >
> > A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still need
> > to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It
> > would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone wants
> > there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that rule
> > change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph of the
> > rules.
> >
> > An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall results
> > for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be
> > secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age
> > groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a single
> > rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place 35+.
> >
> > I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should be
> > over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars and
> > aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal
> > benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only likely
> > to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage race
> > TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally
> > effected.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Brian
> > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
> >
> > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own
> > institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
> > this post isn't for you.
> >
> > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it
> > in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has
> > here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
> > fair competition and success.
> >
> > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
> > would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
> > beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
> > and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
> > that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
> >
> > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline
> > than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that
> > it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake
> > of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little
> > to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
> >
> > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
> > garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
> > discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
> > attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
> >
> > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
> > subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
> > entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood
> > Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a
> > min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking
> > he does.
> >
> > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erik wrote:
> >
> > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
> > that.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
Karsten Hagen [mailto:hagenkt@mac.com] wrote:
"This event is often decided by one second or less, so small margins make a
difference no matter how expensive they are."
The difference between the top few places is seconds or less. The difference
between the fastest riders and the middle of the pack is minutes. You have
to be close to winning before you will be able to increase the possibility
of winning by purchase of equipment. Basically a fast guy is a fast guy,
regardless of equipment. The fast guy may not be the FASTEST guy without
aero equipment but he still won't be middle of the pack.
Mike Murray
OK. The fact that I'm a lot faster on my TT bike with a hangover than on my
road bike with a hangover may be purely mental. But I doubt it.
But I don't see the argument that having a traditional category would
"perpetuate" the myth that TT equipment is more effective.
This event is often decided by one second or less, so small margins make a
difference no matter how expensive they are. It is possible to go out and
buy that second.
If your argument were true, the Olympic pursuit team in Beijing would be on
steel track bikes with Nitto track bars and wool shorts. Worked for Eddy.
But most people who race can't realistically afford the $$$$ for that second
or two of difference.
Karsten
On 8/19/08 6:06 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:
> Karsten Hagen [mailto:hagenkt@mac.com] wrote:
> "If two people of equal abilities start a TT at the same time of day during
> the same weather conditions and one is on a standard road bike and one is on
> a Felt DA with Zipp disc and Giro TT helmet ... the guy on the TT setup will
> win; that is obvious."
>
> The real question is "By how much?" If the difference is less than the
> variability between a good day and a bad day then it is not significant.
>
> Having yet another category for "traditional" equipment would only
> perpetuates the myth that all this gee whiz equipment is effective and
> needed. The playing field would still not be level because some guys would
> be having a good day and others a bad. The field never gets level, if it
> did all riders would have the same time.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
Totally agree Mike..I've been racing for five years and have yet to meet two people with "equal abilities"...
There are always differences in physical training, mental fortitude and attitude, or what the rider had for
breakfast that morning or how well he/she slept the night before...
those things account for time differences more often than gear choice and typically can be attributed
to placements above and beyond what kind of helmet they wear or the geometry or material of their bike.
Jess Mace, MPH
Clinical Outcomes Research - Oregon Sinus Center
Department of Otolaryngology - Head and Neck Surgery
Oregon Health & Science University
503.494.5886
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:06 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
Karsten Hagen [mailto:hagenkt@mac.com] wrote:
"If two people of equal abilities start a TT at the same time of day during
the same weather conditions and one is on a standard road bike and one is on
a Felt DA with Zipp disc and Giro TT helmet ... the guy on the TT setup will
win; that is obvious."
The real question is "By how much?" If the difference is less than the
variability between a good day and a bad day then it is not significant.
Having yet another category for "traditional" equipment would only
perpetuates the myth that all this gee whiz equipment is effective and
needed. The playing field would still not be level because some guys would
be having a good day and others a bad. The field never gets level, if it
did all riders would have the same time.
Mike Murray
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
Karsten Hagen [mailto:hagenkt@mac.com] wrote:
"If two people of equal abilities start a TT at the same time of day during
the same weather conditions and one is on a standard road bike and one is on
a Felt DA with Zipp disc and Giro TT helmet ... the guy on the TT setup will
win; that is obvious."
The real question is "By how much?" If the difference is less than the
variability between a good day and a bad day then it is not significant.
Having yet another category for "traditional" equipment would only
perpetuates the myth that all this gee whiz equipment is effective and
needed. The playing field would still not be level because some guys would
be having a good day and others a bad. The field never gets level, if it
did all riders would have the same time.
Mike Murray
I feel a whole new email string coming on......
If two people of equal abilities start a TT at the same time of day during
the same weather conditions and one is on a standard road bike and one is on
a Felt DA with Zipp disc and Giro TT helmet (my dream setup, pay no
attention to the details) the guy on the TT setup will win; that is obvious.
So, having a "traditional" category levels the playing field for those that
don't have the scratch can still compete for a medal.
Karsten
On 8/19/08 5:34 PM, "Jess Mace" wrote:
> It¹s a common misnomer at this level of competition to think that aero-gear is
> a huge
> technical advantage over strong and targeted training. I'm not saying it does
> not help or provide some kind
> of advantage to many riders, however I've passed quite a few guys on Cervelo
> P3's with full
> Zipp componentry and wheelsets on my old aluminum TT set up...and have been
> passed by quite a few more
> guys no aerogear whatsoever...I've raced and learned enough now to not credit
> TT placements with one's expendable income..
> thinking otherwise is simply falling for what a good marketer has told you in
> some advertisement.
>
>
> Jess Mace, MPH
> Clinical Outcomes Research - Oregon Sinus Center
> Department of Otolaryngology - Head and Neck Surgery
> Oregon Health & Science University
> 503.494.5886
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf
> Of Karsten Hagen
> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:23 PM
> To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
> How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional"
> category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH
> events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK).
> That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal.
>
> Karsten
>
>
> On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:
>
>> TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multiple
>> riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for
>> places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a single
>> time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time is
>> a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. In the past it
>> was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done
>> with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage
>> everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and
>> 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do things
>> so different from everyone else in the world.
>>
>> A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still need
>> to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It
>> would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone wants
>> there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that rule
>> change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph of the
>> rules.
>>
>> An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall results
>> for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be
>> secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age
>> groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a single
>> rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place 35+.
>>
>> I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should be
>> over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars and
>> aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal
>> benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only likely
>> to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage race
>> TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally
>> effected.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Brian
>> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
>>
>> I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own
>> institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
>> this post isn't for you.
>>
>> The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it
>> in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has
>> here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
>> fair competition and success.
>>
>> And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
>> would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
>> beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
>> and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
>> that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
>>
>> As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline
>> than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that
>> it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake
>> of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little
>> to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
>>
>> Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
>> garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
>> discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
>> attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
>>
>> And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
>> subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
>> entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood
>> Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a
>> min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking
>> he does.
>>
>> Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Erik wrote:
>>
>> Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
>> that.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
Its a common misnomer at this level of competition to think that aero-gear is a huge
technical advantage over strong and targeted training. I'm not saying it does not help or provide some kind
of advantage to many riders, however I've passed quite a few guys on Cervelo P3's with full
Zipp componentry and wheelsets on my old aluminum TT set up...and have been passed by quite a few more
guys no aerogear whatsoever...I've raced and learned enough now to not credit TT placements with one's expendable income..
thinking otherwise is simply falling for what a good marketer has told you in some advertisement.
Jess Mace, MPH
Clinical Outcomes Research - Oregon Sinus Center
Department of Otolaryngology - Head and Neck Surgery
Oregon Health & Science University
503.494.5886
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Karsten Hagen
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:23 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional"
category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH
events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK).
That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal.
Karsten
On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:
> TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multiple
> riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for
> places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a single
> time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time is
> a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. In the past it
> was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done
> with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage
> everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and
> 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do things
> so different from everyone else in the world.
>
> A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still need
> to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It
> would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone wants
> there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that rule
> change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph of the
> rules.
>
> An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall results
> for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be
> secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age
> groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a single
> rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place 35+.
>
> I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should be
> over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars and
> aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal
> benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only likely
> to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage race
> TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally
> effected.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Brian
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
>
>
>
>
> No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
>
> I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own
> institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
> this post isn't for you.
>
> The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it
> in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has
> here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
> fair competition and success.
>
> And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
> would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
> beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
> and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
> that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
>
> As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline
> than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that
> it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake
> of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little
> to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
>
> Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
> garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
> discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
> attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
>
> And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
> subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
> entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood
> Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a
> min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking
> he does.
>
> Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
>
>
>
>
>
> Erik wrote:
>
> Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
> that.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
How about taking a cue from the DH crowd and running a "traditional"
category of TT at districts, similar to the Hardtail category in some DH
events. Meaning only standard road equipment is allowed (skinsuits OK).
That way, "buying speed" is not necessarily a ticket to a district medal.
Karsten
On 8/19/08 5:12 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:
> TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multiple
> riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for
> places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a single
> time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time is
> a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. In the past it
> was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done
> with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage
> everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and
> 40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do things
> so different from everyone else in the world.
>
> A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still need
> to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It
> would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone wants
> there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that rule
> change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph of the
> rules.
>
> An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall results
> for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be
> secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age
> groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a single
> rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place 35+.
>
> I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should be
> over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars and
> aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal
> benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only likely
> to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage race
> TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally
> effected.
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Brian
> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
>
>
>
>
> No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
>
> I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own
> institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
> this post isn't for you.
>
> The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it
> in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has
> here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
> fair competition and success.
>
> And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
> would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
> beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
> and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
> that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
>
> As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline
> than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that
> it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake
> of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little
> to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
>
> Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
> garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
> discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
> attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
>
> And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
> subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
> entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood
> Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a
> min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking
> he does.
>
> Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
>
>
>
>
>
> Erik wrote:
>
> Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
> that.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
TTs are in stage races primarily because otherwise there would be multiple
riders that finished with the same time; i.e. multiple riders tied for
places with o reasonable way to sort them out. This occurs because a single
time is given for all riders that finish in a group together. Pack time is
a reasonable method and is done universally in bike racing. In the past it
was impossible to give riders their own finish time. This could be done
with current timing equipment but I don't think we want to encourage
everyone sprinting in so that they don't lose the time between 20th and
40th. I am also not sure it would be such a great idea for us to do things
so different from everyone else in the world.
A separate category for TT would be possible but stage races will still need
to be divided by road category and will still need to include a TT. It
would also require a fair amount more administrative work. If someone wants
there to be separate categories for they can feel free to propose that rule
change through the rule change process outline in the first paragraph of the
rules.
An alternative the I would suggest is that all TTs produce overall results
for all competitors listing the fastest to slowest. There could then be
secondary results done for specific groups; individual categories, age
groups, home town, hair color ... Whatever. I see no reason why a single
rider could not be the 5th place overall, 1st place Cat 4 and 2nd place 35+.
I also don't think that the importance of TT specific equipment should be
over emphasized. There is a measurable benefit from a skinsuit, TT bars and
aero wheels (mostly front wheel) but the other stuff provides minimal
benefit. Even a purchase of a maximal amount of TT equipment is only likely
to improve placing by a small amount. Most people could ride a stage race
TT on their regular road bike and they GC position would be minimally
effected.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Brian
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 15:22 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own
institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
this post isn't for you.
The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it
in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has
here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
fair competition and success.
And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline
than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that
it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake
of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little
to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood
Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a
min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking
he does.
Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
Erik wrote:
Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
that.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
George is already in his own Category.
Thomas Hoffman
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Martin Baker
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:44 PM
To: 'Chris Alling'; joec@aracnet.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
.and George.
;-)
________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Alling
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:34 PM
To: joec@aracnet.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
I will be happy to vote to give Joe his own catagory.
________________________________
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:58 -0700
> From: joec@aracnet.com
> To: brian.a.mack@gmail.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
> And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be
> a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we
> give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely
> 'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go
> away.
>
> Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess
as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly
bench
> warmer on any given professional sports team.
>
> I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete
> against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo
for
> me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I
> can always bring home a g-damn medal.
>
> If you want to win, then damnit, get on your bike and ride.
>
> Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA!
>
>
> Brian wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
> >
> > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its
own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
this post isn't for you.
> >
> > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they
do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it
has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
fair competition and success.
> >
> > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
> >
> > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct
discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race
design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply
for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it,
TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
> >
> > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
> >
> > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling
Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k
dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.
> >
> > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erik wrote:
> >
> > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
that.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
________________________________
See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
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.and George.
;-)
_____
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Alling
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:34 PM
To: joec@aracnet.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
I will be happy to vote to give Joe his own catagory.
_____
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:58 -0700
> From: joec@aracnet.com
> To: brian.a.mack@gmail.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch
>
> And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be
> a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we
> give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely
> 'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go
> away.
>
> Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess
as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly
bench
> warmer on any given professional sports team.
>
> I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete
> against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo
for
> me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I
> can always bring home a g-damn medal.
>
> If you want to win, then damnit, get on your bike and ride.
>
> Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA!
>
>
> Brian wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
> >
> > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its
own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that,
this post isn't for you.
> >
> > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they
do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it
has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of
fair competition and success.
> >
> > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it
would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and
beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium
and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But
that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
> >
> > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct
discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race
design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply
for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it,
TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
> >
> > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the
garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate
discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more
attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
> >
> > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a
subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists
entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling
Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k
dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.
> >
> > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erik wrote:
> >
> > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote
that.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_____
See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts.
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I will be happy to vote to give Joe his own catagory.
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:58 -0700> From: joec@aracnet.com> To: brian.a.mack@gmail.com> CC: obra@list.obra.org> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] TT, categories, and beer for lunch> > And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be> a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we> give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely> 'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go> away.> > Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly bench> warmer on any given professional sports team.> > I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete> against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo for> me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I> can always bring home a g-damn medal.> > If you want to win, then damnit, get on your bike and ride.> > Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA! > > > Brian wrote:> > > > > > > > > No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.> > > > I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that, this post isn't for you.> > > > The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of fair competition and success.> > > > And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.> > > > As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race. > > > > Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more attractive purchases and encourage using them more.> > > > And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.> > > > Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...> > > > > > > > > > > > Erik wrote:> > > > Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that. > > _______________________________________________> > OBRA mailing list> > obra@list.obra.org> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org> > _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_________________________________________________________________
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And people bitch about USACycling... Fer chrissakes. There will never be
a completely 'fair' scoring scheme. This is not kindergarten where we
give everyone a ribbon for participating. Take the G**D*** touchy-feely
'My Child is an Honor Student at Who-gives-a-Damn Middle School' and go
away.
Newsflash: Life sucks sometimes. I am not blessed as much athletic prowess as Michael Phelpes (attempt at being topical) or Lance, or even the lowly bench
warmer on any given professional sports team.
I dislike the fact that no matter where I go and race, I have to compete
against Harry Phinney, David Zimbleman, or George Schreck. Oh booo-hooo for
me. Give them their own category and create a special one for Joe so I
can always bring home a g-damn medal.
If you want to win, then damnit, get on your bike and ride.
Now THAT is a rant worth posting to OBRA!
Brian wrote:
>
>
>
> No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
>
> I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that, this post isn't for you.
>
> The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of fair competition and success.
>
> And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
>
> As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
>
> Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
>
> And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.
>
> Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
>
>
>
>
>
> Erik wrote:
>
> Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
No beer for me today Erik, unfortunately.
I think it is important for an organization to be able to reassess its own institutions from time to time. If you aren't interested in doing that, this post isn't for you.
The categories thing might seem extreme, but honestly that is how they do it in many countries where cycling has been around a lot longer than it has here. Whatever its benefit, Categorization creates only the illusion of fair competition and success.
And I do believe that realistically, for the average racer out there, it would be more fulfilling and realistic to focus on his own improvement and beating his friends at the races than to worry about getting on the podium and eventually becoming a cat2, the be-all end-all of local cycling. But that's just one opinion on healthy competition mentality.
As for time trialing, I do think that it is a completely distinct discipline than road racing. I also think it' a serious flaw in stage race design that it requires investing a couple grand in aero equipment simply for the sake of being competitive in GC, when in one way of looking at it, TT has little to do with the actual concept of a stage race.
Also, let's face it, most people with TT bikes just get them out of the garage a few times a year when they need them. Thinking of TT as a separate discipline, with its own categories if necessary, would make them more attractive purchases and encourage using them more.
And finally, I believe that the perception that time trialing is a subdivision of road racing creates just one more barrier for new cyclists entering the sport. E.g., potential racer shows up to watch Mt. Hood Cycling Classic, sees that every racer is dressed like a mutant and riding a min. 5k dollar bike, and has no way of relating that to the kind of biking he does.
Thanks for asking me to clarify that. Now for some beer...
Erik wrote:
Brian, please tell us that you had a few beers with lunch and THEN wrote that.
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