wrong way?

Jorgensen's

2008-09-23

I'm not a lawyer, just a planner, but to be clear, the crosswalk law actually states that a cyclist can ride through a crosswalk as long as they "enter" the crosswalk at no more than "normal" walking speed. They can then speed up. Cyclists are not required to dismount under Oregon law.
I've always interpreted state law to protect whomever is in a crosswalk, e.g., ped., bike, motorized wheelchair, etc., and vehicles in the travel lane, which can be bikes, always need to yield. Mark is absolutely right, sidewalk riding in either direction is the most statistically dangerous place to be regarding bike/vehicle conflicts.

Steve Jorgensen
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark J. Ginsberg
To: Rick Johnson ; Sarah Tisdale ; david baker
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?

well a bicyclist in a cross walk is required to go the speed of a pedestrian, and so long as they are following the law, I think the bike in the crosswalk has ROW over a car driver in the roadway.

The collision i see frequently in a sidewalk riding cyclist and a car driver leaving a driveway.

car driver looks left for oncoming auto traffic, biker in on sidewalk from car drivers right. Collision ensues.

ROW can be very fact specific in those cases.

Mark

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

--- On Tue, 9/23/08, david baker wrote:

From: david baker
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?
To: "Rick Johnson" , "Sarah Tisdale"
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 9:02 PM

Oh here's a good one:
If you are riding a bike in a bike lane, or in the car lane if there is no bike lane, and pedestrians want to cross at a crosswalk, you stop to let them cross just like you are a car.
In the same scenario if someone is walking a bike across the crosswalk you stop as well, right...
But if someone is riding a bike across the crosswalk I always consider that they should be yielding to me because I am in the primary route and we are equals.
Is that incorrect assumption on my part?
I am actually asking this on a legal basis because I run into this frequently and if I am required to yield I will to avoid a ticket even though I would not agree with a law like that.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Johnson
To: Sarah Tisdale
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?

In Oregon it is legal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk except where it is expressly forbidden by city ordinance. There are certain things to be aware of in doing so:

a.. Cyclists must yield to all pedestrians

b.. Cyclists must provide audible warning when overtaking pedestrians
c.. Cyclists must ride no faster than walking speed when crossing intersections and driveways when a vehicle is approaching

d.. Cyclists cannot leave the sidewalk in a sudden manner as to cause a hazard
e.. Cannot ride carelessly or in a manner that endangers others or property

Rick

Sarah Tisdale wrote:
I thought bicyclists weren't supposed to be riding on the sidewalk at all.I'm always confused when I see a cyclist riding down a sidewalk on aroad with a perfectly good bike lane. Saw it on Cornell (nearhillsboro airport) this morning.Sarah2008/9/23 Rick Johnson : Another thing I picked up from Ray is that bicyclists are required toannounce themselves when overtaking a pedestrian on a sidewalk.RickJonathan Maus BikePortland wrote:interesting. here's a "quick and dirty" explanation from lawyer/racerRay Thomas"if peds are on the roadway they have to travel facing traffic asfar off the paved surface on the shoulder as possible. AND in bike lanesthe law is less clear but if there is a usable shoulder or sidewalkrunners are not supposed to use the bike lane and must in any eventyield to all traffic including bicycles... "--Jonathan_____________________Jonathan MausEditor, BikePortland.orghttp://www.BikePortland.orgNews Tipline/Cell: (503) 706-8804jonathan@bikeportland.orgOn Sep 23, 2008, at 9:37 AM, David Auker wrote:I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is toenable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimesthere isno place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrowcar-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-usepaths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use somelessons insharing:what is the fricking law when it comes to this?………..cause iswear…….next time, i'll run their asses over!It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order'fromgetting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motorvehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the waythe above cyclist seems to
think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) Ingeneral, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out thereneed the most care and respect.Davidrick martin wrote:can some of you help me out here........................i'mcurious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/------------------------------------------------------------------------_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org--Rick JohnsonBend, Oregon541-390-5269RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net_______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org _______________________________________________OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

-- Rick JohnsonBend, Oregon541-390-5269RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

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Mark J. Ginsberg

2008-09-23

well a bicyclist in a cross walk is required to go the speed of a pedestrian, and so long as they are following the law, I think the bike in the crosswalk has ROW over a car driver in the roadway.

The collision i see frequently in a sidewalk riding cyclist and a car driver leaving a driveway.

car driver looks left for oncoming auto traffic, biker in on sidewalk from car drivers right. Collision ensues.

ROW can be very fact specific in those cases.

Mark

Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC

Attorneys At Law

1216 SE Belmont St.

Portland, OR 97214

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com

--- On Tue, 9/23/08, david baker wrote:
From: david baker
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?
To: "Rick Johnson" , "Sarah Tisdale"
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 9:02 PM


Oh here's a good one:
 If you are riding a bike in a bike lane,
or in the car lane if there is no bike lane, and pedestrians want to cross at a
crosswalk, you stop to let them cross just like you are a car.
In the same scenario if someone is walking a bike
across the crosswalk you stop as well, right...
But if someone is riding a bike across the
crosswalk I always consider that they should be yielding to me because I am in
the primary route and we are equals. 
Is that incorrect assumption on my
part?
I am actually asking this on a legal basis because
I run into this frequently and if I am required to yield I will to avoid a
ticket even though I would not agree with a law like
that.   

----- Original Message -----
From:
Rick
Johnson
To: Sarah Tisdale
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:23
PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?

In Oregon it is legal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk except
where it is expressly forbidden by city ordinance. There are certain things to
be aware of in doing so:


Cyclists must yield to all pedestrians

Cyclists must provide audible warning when overtaking pedestrians
Cyclists must ride no faster than walking speed when crossing
intersections and driveways when a vehicle is approaching

Cyclists cannot leave the sidewalk in a sudden manner as to cause a
hazard
Cannot ride carelessly or in a manner that endangers others or
property
Rick

Sarah Tisdale wrote:
I thought bicyclists weren't supposed to be riding on the sidewalk at all.

I'm always confused when I see a cyclist riding down a sidewalk on a
road with a perfectly good bike lane. Saw it on Cornell (near
hillsboro airport) this morning.

Sarah

2008/9/23 Rick Johnson :

Another thing I picked up from Ray is that bicyclists are required to
announce themselves when overtaking a pedestrian on a sidewalk.

Rick

Jonathan Maus BikePortland wrote:

interesting. here's a "quick and dirty" explanation from lawyer/racer
Ray Thomas

"if peds are on the roadway they have to travel facing traffic as
far off the paved surface on the shoulder as possible. AND in bike lanes
the law is less clear but if there is a usable shoulder or sidewalk
runners are not supposed to use the bike lane and must in any event
yield to all traffic including bicycles... "

--Jonathan
_____________________
Jonathan Maus
Editor, BikePortland.org
http://www.BikePortland.org
News Tipline/Cell: (503) 706-8804
jonathan@bikeportland.org

On Sep 23, 2008, at 9:37 AM, David Auker wrote:

I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes
there is
no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some
lessons in
sharing:

what is the fricking law when it comes to this?………..cause i
swear…….next time, i'll run their asses over!

It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order'
from
getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
need the most care and respect.

David

rick martin wrote:

can some of you help me out here........................i'm
curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--
Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon
541-390-5269
RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

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--
Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon
541-390-5269
RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

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david baker

2008-09-23

Oh here's a good one:
If you are riding a bike in a bike lane, or in the car lane if there is no bike lane, and pedestrians want to cross at a crosswalk, you stop to let them cross just like you are a car.
In the same scenario if someone is walking a bike across the crosswalk you stop as well, right...
But if someone is riding a bike across the crosswalk I always consider that they should be yielding to me because I am in the primary route and we are equals.
Is that incorrect assumption on my part?
I am actually asking this on a legal basis because I run into this frequently and if I am required to yield I will to avoid a ticket even though I would not agree with a law like that.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Johnson
To: Sarah Tisdale
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?

In Oregon it is legal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk except where it is expressly forbidden by city ordinance. There are certain things to be aware of in doing so:

a.. Cyclists must yield to all pedestrians

b.. Cyclists must provide audible warning when overtaking pedestrians
c.. Cyclists must ride no faster than walking speed when crossing intersections and driveways when a vehicle is approaching

d.. Cyclists cannot leave the sidewalk in a sudden manner as to cause a hazard
e.. Cannot ride carelessly or in a manner that endangers others or property

Rick

Sarah Tisdale wrote:
I thought bicyclists weren't supposed to be riding on the sidewalk at all.

I'm always confused when I see a cyclist riding down a sidewalk on a
road with a perfectly good bike lane. Saw it on Cornell (near
hillsboro airport) this morning.

Sarah

2008/9/23 Rick Johnson :
Another thing I picked up from Ray is that bicyclists are required to
announce themselves when overtaking a pedestrian on a sidewalk.

Rick

Jonathan Maus BikePortland wrote:

interesting. here's a "quick and dirty" explanation from lawyer/racer
Ray Thomas

"if peds are on the roadway they have to travel facing traffic as
far off the paved surface on the shoulder as possible. AND in bike lanes
the law is less clear but if there is a usable shoulder or sidewalk
runners are not supposed to use the bike lane and must in any event
yield to all traffic including bicycles... "

--Jonathan
_____________________
Jonathan Maus
Editor, BikePortland.org
http://www.BikePortland.org
News Tipline/Cell: (503) 706-8804
jonathan@bikeportland.org

On Sep 23, 2008, at 9:37 AM, David Auker wrote:

I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes
there is
no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some
lessons in
sharing:

what is the fricking law when it comes to this?………..cause i
swear…….next time, i'll run their asses over!

It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order'
from
getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
need the most care and respect.

David

rick martin wrote:

can some of you help me out here........................i'm
curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--
Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon
541-390-5269
RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

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Rick Johnson
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541-390-5269
RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

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Mark J. Ginsberg

2008-09-23

one of the real underlying issues, that was implied in a few of the comments, that runners all know but cyclists don't see as often if that the slope of roadways for drainage affects where it is best to run.

As a bike advocate, I see this classic conflict on multi-use trails all the time.

for a legal analysis, runners are pedestrians who are moving too fast (I run, so I ain't being mean, but anyone who's seen me run will think I am just walking sort of funny, not fast at all).

so the legal question is what rights/ responsibilities do pedestrians have in roadway use.

and the answer is: It Depends.

is there a sidewalk?
is there no sidewalk but a wide shoulder?
how about a multi-use path?

on sidewalks bicyclist must yield right of way (herein after ROW) to peds, and must also give audible warning when passing.

On multi-use paths the rules are sort of the same as sidewalks. where peds have row over cyclists.

but roadways without sidewalks and let's say without bike lanes are difficult. b/c what you have is a fast pedestrian and a slow vehicle. So if you look at it that way, I think we'd all agree that the slow vehicle (cyclist) gives ROW to the fast ped (jogger).

now of course there are exceptions to these rules, such as cross walks and driveways where the ped speed is a factor in figuring out ROW.

also many runners like to run in the middle of the road b/c of the slope or "crown" of the road, and being in the center where it is flatter is better for your knees and hips, so running on the edge of the road might be smart, but is also bad for your body.

there's always more, but that's what I've got off the top of my head.

Mark Ginsberg

Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC

Attorneys At Law

1216 SE Belmont St.

Portland, OR 97214

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com

--- On Tue, 9/23/08, Sarah Tisdale wrote:
From: Sarah Tisdale
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?
To: "obra"
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2008, 10:19 AM

Here's a Q&A from the "Runner's World" website that
cyclists may enjoy:
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-267--10272-0,00.html

"Q: IF YOU'RE RUNNING ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE ROAD AND A BIKER COMES
TOWARD YOU, WHO HAS THE RIGHT OF WAY?
[...]
In theory, everybody has rights to the road, but in practice we all
have to follow the hierarchy of horsepower. As soon as you see an
oncoming biker, step left so it's clear the cyclist won't have to veer
into traffic or a guardrail-even if it means you have to take a few
steps in the grass, dirt, or over horse dung. It's safer for you to
move your wheels a little to the left than it is for cyclists to move
theirs. "

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Sarah Tisdale
wrote:
> =====================
> Running on the street instead of the sidewalk: First, cement is
> harder than asphalt
>
(http://www.thefinalsprint.com/2006/07/concrete-vs-asphalt-which-is-the-better-running-surface/).
> If you're running 50 miles a week, it makes a difference; Second, in
> areas with side streets and driveways, sidewalks are tricky to
> navigate. Easy to twist an ankle. In general, unless traffic is
> really bad, running in the side of the street is mentally and
> physically easier. Often at the end of a 20 mile run, both mind and
> body are suffering quite a bit.
>
> =====================
> Running "against traffic":
>
> This is the rule for pedestrian traffic (walkers & runnes). This
> article does a good job summarizing what I've heard:
> http://www.runtowin.com/tips/correct-side-of-road.html
>
> Some runners also prefer to switch to the right side of the road in
> places where oncoming vehicles can't see them well (blind corners,
> abrupt hills).
>
> =====================
> Running slowly three abreast on a multi-use trail and not moving when
> a cyclist approaches:
>
> They're idiots. Obviously they shouldn't do that - or at least
they
> should be watching for runners and cyclists coming up behind them. Of
> course, trying to do high-speed cycling on a busy multi-use trail is
> not such a great plan either. On a busy multi-use trail, everyone
> needs to play nice.
>
>
> Sarah
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Monty Hill
wrote:
>> I would rather have them coming at me. A number of times I have come
up behind 5+ walkers/runners, on Fairmont and other areas heavily laden foot
traffic. I use to try and do the polite thing by ringing my bell or saying
something, just to have them scatter in every direction, leaving me scrambling
to find a way through. Now I just sneak up and find a hole, glide through and
feel much safer. What really gets me is the dog walkers with the leash strung
across the road at early morning when I can't see the dog or leash. Oui.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
On Behalf Of David Auker
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:37 AM
>> To: rick martin
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?
>>
>> I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
>> enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes there
is
>> no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
>> car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
>> paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some lessons
in
>> sharing:
>>> what is the fricking law when it comes to this?...........cause i
>>> swear.......next time, i'll run their asses over!
>> It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking
order' from
>> getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
>> vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the
way
>> the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
>> general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
>> need the most care and respect.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> rick martin wrote:
>>> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
>>> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
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>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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>>
>
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Brady Brady

2008-09-23

Heck, even if someone WERE chasing you, as long as you could take 'em!

On Sep 23, 2008, at 12:54 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

> Why would you run if no one was chasing you?
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Tony Pereira
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 10:42 AM
> To: OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?
>
>
> I say if you're running at all you're going the wrong way.
>
> rick martin wrote:
>> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
>> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>


Mike Murray

2008-09-23

Why would you run if no one was chasing you?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Tony Pereira
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 10:42 AM
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?

I say if you're running at all you're going the wrong way.

rick martin wrote:
> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
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>
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Rick Johnson

2008-09-23


That is correct, Ray noted that it is often cited that way in lawsuits.
Typically the cyclist in that scenario looses all basis for recovering
damages.

That makes it all the more important to be clearly in compliance if you
choose to ride on the sidewalk.



Rick



Michael O'Hair wrote:






FWIW, this is a big loophole for drivers. 
They just say "He was moving so fast that I didn't have time to react."


Cyclists
must ride no faster than walking speed when crossing intersections and
driveways when a vehicle is approaching






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-- 

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon
541-390-5269
RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

Michael O'Hair

2008-09-23

FWIW, this is a big loophole for drivers. They just say "He was moving so fast that I didn't have time to react."
Cyclists must ride no faster than walking speed when crossing intersections and driveways when a vehicle is approaching


Rick Johnson

2008-09-23


In Oregon it is legal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk except where it
is expressly forbidden by city ordinance. There are certain things to
be aware of in doing so:


  • Cyclists must yield to all pedestrians


  • Cyclists must provide audible warning when overtaking pedestrians

  • Cyclists must ride no faster than walking speed when crossing
    intersections and driveways when a vehicle is approaching


  • Cyclists cannot leave the sidewalk in a sudden manner as to cause
    a hazard

  • Cannot ride carelessly or in a manner that endangers others or
    property



Rick



Sarah Tisdale wrote:

I thought bicyclists weren't supposed to be riding on the sidewalk at all.

I'm always confused when I see a cyclist riding down a sidewalk on a
road with a perfectly good bike lane. Saw it on Cornell (near
hillsboro airport) this morning.

Sarah

2008/9/23 Rick Johnson <RCJohnson1@attglobal.net>:



Another thing I picked up from Ray is that bicyclists are required to

announce themselves when overtaking a pedestrian on a sidewalk.

Rick

Jonathan Maus BikePortland wrote:

interesting. here's a "quick and dirty" explanation from lawyer/racer
Ray Thomas

"if peds are on the roadway they have to travel facing traffic as
far off the paved surface on the shoulder as possible. AND in bike lanes
the law is less clear but if there is a usable shoulder or sidewalk
runners are not supposed to use the bike lane and must in any event
yield to all traffic including bicycles... "

--Jonathan
_____________________
Jonathan Maus
Editor, BikePortland.org
http://www.BikePortland.org
News Tipline/Cell: (503) 706-8804
jonathan@bikeportland.org

On Sep 23, 2008, at 9:37 AM, David Auker wrote:

I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes
there is
no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some
lessons in
sharing:

what is the fricking law when it comes to this?………..cause i
swear…….next time, i'll run their asses over!

It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order'
from
getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
need the most care and respect.

David

rick martin wrote:

can some of you help me out here........................i'm
curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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--
Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon
541-390-5269
RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org





-- 

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon
541-390-5269
RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

Sarah Tisdale

2008-09-23

I thought bicyclists weren't supposed to be riding on the sidewalk at all.

I'm always confused when I see a cyclist riding down a sidewalk on a
road with a perfectly good bike lane. Saw it on Cornell (near
hillsboro airport) this morning.

Sarah

2008/9/23 Rick Johnson :
> Another thing I picked up from Ray is that bicyclists are required to
> announce themselves when overtaking a pedestrian on a sidewalk.
>
> Rick
>
> Jonathan Maus BikePortland wrote:
>
> interesting. here's a "quick and dirty" explanation from lawyer/racer
> Ray Thomas
>
> "if peds are on the roadway they have to travel facing traffic as
> far off the paved surface on the shoulder as possible. AND in bike lanes
> the law is less clear but if there is a usable shoulder or sidewalk
> runners are not supposed to use the bike lane and must in any event
> yield to all traffic including bicycles... "
>
>
> --Jonathan
> _____________________
> Jonathan Maus
> Editor, BikePortland.org
> http://www.BikePortland.org
> News Tipline/Cell: (503) 706-8804
> jonathan@bikeportland.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2008, at 9:37 AM, David Auker wrote:
>
>
>
> I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
> enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes
> there is
> no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
> car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
> paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some
> lessons in
> sharing:
>
>
> what is the fricking law when it comes to this?………..cause i
> swear…….next time, i'll run their asses over!
>
>
> It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order'
> from
> getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
> vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
> the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
> general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
> need the most care and respect.
>
> David
>
>
> rick martin wrote:
>
>
> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> --
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
> 541-390-5269
> RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Rick Johnson

2008-09-23


Another thing I picked up from Ray is that bicyclists are required to
announce themselves when overtaking a pedestrian on a sidewalk.



Rick



Jonathan Maus BikePortland wrote:


interesting.  here's a "quick and dirty" explanation from lawyer/racer  

Ray Thomas

"if peds are on the roadway they have to travel facing traffic as
far off the paved surface on the shoulder as possible. AND in bike lanes
the law is less clear but if there is a usable shoulder or sidewalk
runners are not supposed to use the bike lane and must in any event
yield to all traffic including bicycles... "

--Jonathan
_____________________
Jonathan Maus
Editor, BikePortland.org
http://www.BikePortland.org
News Tipline/Cell: (503) 706-8804
jonathan@bikeportland.org

On Sep 23, 2008, at 9:37 AM, David Auker wrote:



I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to

enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes
there is
no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some
lessons in
sharing:


what is the fricking law when it comes to this?………..cause i

swear…….next time, i’ll run their asses over!


It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order'  

from
getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
need the most care and respect.

David

rick martin wrote:



can some of you help me out here........................i'm

curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------



_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org



_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org





-- 

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon
541-390-5269
RCJohnson1@Attglobal.net

Jonathan Maus BikePortland

2008-09-23

interesting. here's a "quick and dirty" explanation from lawyer/racer
Ray Thomas

"if peds are on the roadway they have to travel facing traffic as
far off the paved surface on the shoulder as possible. AND in bike lanes
the law is less clear but if there is a usable shoulder or sidewalk
runners are not supposed to use the bike lane and must in any event
yield to all traffic including bicycles... "

--Jonathan
_____________________
Jonathan Maus
Editor, BikePortland.org
http://www.BikePortland.org
News Tipline/Cell: (503) 706-8804
jonathan@bikeportland.org

On Sep 23, 2008, at 9:37 AM, David Auker wrote:

> I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
> enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes
> there is
> no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
> car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
> paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some
> lessons in
> sharing:
>> what is the fricking law when it comes to this?………..cause i
>> swear…….next time, i’ll run their asses over!
> It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order'
> from
> getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
> vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
> the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
> general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
> need the most care and respect.
>
> David
>
>
> rick martin wrote:
>> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
>> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Tony Pereira

2008-09-23

I say if you're running at all you're going the wrong way.

rick martin wrote:
> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


In the places I've lived, the general rule seems to be:
If you have wheels, you go with traffic. If you don't have wheels, you look directly at oncoming traffic. This makes sense since you can step sideways almost instantly when you're on foot.

The only exceptions to this seem to be for young kids - riding on sidewalks, following parents on foot, etc.
> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:19:43 -0700> From: sarah.s.tisdale@gmail.com> To: obra@list.obra.org> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?> > Here's a Q&A from the "Runner's World" website that cyclists may enjoy:> http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-267--10272-0,00.html> > "Q: IF YOU'RE RUNNING ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE ROAD AND A BIKER COMES> TOWARD YOU, WHO HAS THE RIGHT OF WAY?> [...]> In theory, everybody has rights to the road, but in practice we all> have to follow the hierarchy of horsepower. As soon as you see an> oncoming biker, step left so it's clear the cyclist won't have to veer> into traffic or a guardrail-even if it means you have to take a few> steps in the grass, dirt, or over horse dung. It's safer for you to> move your wheels a little to the left than it is for cyclists to move> theirs. "> > > > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Sarah Tisdale> wrote:> > =====================> > Running on the street instead of the sidewalk: First, cement is> > harder than asphalt> > (http://www.thefinalsprint.com/2006/07/concrete-vs-asphalt-which-is-the-better-running-surface/).> > If you're running 50 miles a week, it makes a difference; Second, in> > areas with side streets and driveways, sidewalks are tricky to> > navigate. Easy to twist an ankle. In general, unless traffic is> > really bad, running in the side of the street is mentally and> > physically easier. Often at the end of a 20 mile run, both mind and> > body are suffering quite a bit.> >> > =====================> > Running "against traffic":> >> > This is the rule for pedestrian traffic (walkers & runnes). This> > article does a good job summarizing what I've heard:> > http://www.runtowin.com/tips/correct-side-of-road.html> >> > Some runners also prefer to switch to the right side of the road in> > places where oncoming vehicles can't see them well (blind corners,> > abrupt hills).> >> > =====================> > Running slowly three abreast on a multi-use trail and not moving when> > a cyclist approaches:> >> > They're idiots. Obviously they shouldn't do that - or at least they> > should be watching for runners and cyclists coming up behind them. Of> > course, trying to do high-speed cycling on a busy multi-use trail is> > not such a great plan either. On a busy multi-use trail, everyone> > needs to play nice.> >> >> > Sarah> >> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Monty Hill wrote:> >> I would rather have them coming at me. A number of times I have come up behind 5+ walkers/runners, on Fairmont and other areas heavily laden foot traffic. I use to try and do the polite thing by ringing my bell or saying something, just to have them scatter in every direction, leaving me scrambling to find a way through. Now I just sneak up and find a hole, glide through and feel much safer. What really gets me is the dog walkers with the leash strung across the road at early morning when I can't see the dog or leash. Oui.> >>> >>> >>> >> -----Original Message-----> >> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of David Auker> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:37 AM> >> To: rick martin> >> Cc: obra@list.obra.org> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?> >>> >> I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to> >> enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes there is> >> no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow> >> car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use> >> paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some lessons in> >> sharing:> >>> what is the fricking law when it comes to this?...........cause i> >>> swear.......next time, i'll run their asses over!> >> It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order' from> >> getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor> >> vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way> >> the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In> >> general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there> >> need the most care and respect.> >>> >> David> >>> >>> >> rick martin wrote:> >>> can some of you help me out here........................i'm> >>> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________> >> OBRA mailing list> >> obra@list.obra.org> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org> >> _______________________________________________> >> OBRA mailing list> >> obra@list.obra.org> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org> >>> >> _______________________________________________> OBRA mailing list> obra@list.obra.org> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Sarah Tisdale

2008-09-23

Here's a Q&A from the "Runner's World" website that cyclists may enjoy:
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-267--10272-0,00.html

"Q: IF YOU'RE RUNNING ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE ROAD AND A BIKER COMES
TOWARD YOU, WHO HAS THE RIGHT OF WAY?
[...]
In theory, everybody has rights to the road, but in practice we all
have to follow the hierarchy of horsepower. As soon as you see an
oncoming biker, step left so it's clear the cyclist won't have to veer
into traffic or a guardrail-even if it means you have to take a few
steps in the grass, dirt, or over horse dung. It's safer for you to
move your wheels a little to the left than it is for cyclists to move
theirs. "

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Sarah Tisdale
wrote:
> =====================
> Running on the street instead of the sidewalk: First, cement is
> harder than asphalt
> (http://www.thefinalsprint.com/2006/07/concrete-vs-asphalt-which-is-the-better-running-surface/).
> If you're running 50 miles a week, it makes a difference; Second, in
> areas with side streets and driveways, sidewalks are tricky to
> navigate. Easy to twist an ankle. In general, unless traffic is
> really bad, running in the side of the street is mentally and
> physically easier. Often at the end of a 20 mile run, both mind and
> body are suffering quite a bit.
>
> =====================
> Running "against traffic":
>
> This is the rule for pedestrian traffic (walkers & runnes). This
> article does a good job summarizing what I've heard:
> http://www.runtowin.com/tips/correct-side-of-road.html
>
> Some runners also prefer to switch to the right side of the road in
> places where oncoming vehicles can't see them well (blind corners,
> abrupt hills).
>
> =====================
> Running slowly three abreast on a multi-use trail and not moving when
> a cyclist approaches:
>
> They're idiots. Obviously they shouldn't do that - or at least they
> should be watching for runners and cyclists coming up behind them. Of
> course, trying to do high-speed cycling on a busy multi-use trail is
> not such a great plan either. On a busy multi-use trail, everyone
> needs to play nice.
>
>
> Sarah
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Monty Hill wrote:
>> I would rather have them coming at me. A number of times I have come up behind 5+ walkers/runners, on Fairmont and other areas heavily laden foot traffic. I use to try and do the polite thing by ringing my bell or saying something, just to have them scatter in every direction, leaving me scrambling to find a way through. Now I just sneak up and find a hole, glide through and feel much safer. What really gets me is the dog walkers with the leash strung across the road at early morning when I can't see the dog or leash. Oui.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of David Auker
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:37 AM
>> To: rick martin
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?
>>
>> I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
>> enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes there is
>> no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
>> car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
>> paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some lessons in
>> sharing:
>>> what is the fricking law when it comes to this?...........cause i
>>> swear.......next time, i'll run their asses over!
>> It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order' from
>> getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
>> vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
>> the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
>> general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
>> need the most care and respect.
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> rick martin wrote:
>>> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
>>> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>


Sarah Tisdale

2008-09-23

=====================
Running on the street instead of the sidewalk: First, cement is
harder than asphalt
(http://www.thefinalsprint.com/2006/07/concrete-vs-asphalt-which-is-the-better-running-surface/).
If you're running 50 miles a week, it makes a difference; Second, in
areas with side streets and driveways, sidewalks are tricky to
navigate. Easy to twist an ankle. In general, unless traffic is
really bad, running in the side of the street is mentally and
physically easier. Often at the end of a 20 mile run, both mind and
body are suffering quite a bit.

=====================
Running "against traffic":

This is the rule for pedestrian traffic (walkers & runnes). This
article does a good job summarizing what I've heard:
http://www.runtowin.com/tips/correct-side-of-road.html

Some runners also prefer to switch to the right side of the road in
places where oncoming vehicles can't see them well (blind corners,
abrupt hills).

=====================
Running slowly three abreast on a multi-use trail and not moving when
a cyclist approaches:

They're idiots. Obviously they shouldn't do that - or at least they
should be watching for runners and cyclists coming up behind them. Of
course, trying to do high-speed cycling on a busy multi-use trail is
not such a great plan either. On a busy multi-use trail, everyone
needs to play nice.

Sarah

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Monty Hill wrote:
> I would rather have them coming at me. A number of times I have come up behind 5+ walkers/runners, on Fairmont and other areas heavily laden foot traffic. I use to try and do the polite thing by ringing my bell or saying something, just to have them scatter in every direction, leaving me scrambling to find a way through. Now I just sneak up and find a hole, glide through and feel much safer. What really gets me is the dog walkers with the leash strung across the road at early morning when I can't see the dog or leash. Oui.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of David Auker
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:37 AM
> To: rick martin
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?
>
> I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
> enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes there is
> no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
> car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
> paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some lessons in
> sharing:
>> what is the fricking law when it comes to this?...........cause i
>> swear.......next time, i'll run their asses over!
> It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order' from
> getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
> vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
> the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
> general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
> need the most care and respect.
>
> David
>
>
> rick martin wrote:
>> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
>> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Monty Hill

2008-09-23

I would rather have them coming at me. A number of times I have come up behind 5+ walkers/runners, on Fairmont and other areas heavily laden foot traffic. I use to try and do the polite thing by ringing my bell or saying something, just to have them scatter in every direction, leaving me scrambling to find a way through. Now I just sneak up and find a hole, glide through and feel much safer. What really gets me is the dog walkers with the leash strung across the road at early morning when I can't see the dog or leash. Oui.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of David Auker
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:37 AM
To: rick martin
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?

I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes there is
no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some lessons in
sharing:
> what is the fricking law when it comes to this?...........cause i
> swear.......next time, i'll run their asses over!
It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order' from
getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
need the most care and respect.

David

rick martin wrote:
> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


David Auker

2008-09-23

I think the law is pedestrians walk/run facing traffic, and this is to
enable them to see what is coming their way (but hey, sometimes there is
no place to move to, just like when a cyclist is on a narrow
car-trafficked road). It's a give and take world on multi-use
paths...the blogger whose link you point us to could use some lessons in
sharing:
> what is the fricking law when it comes to this?………..cause i
> swear…….next time, i’ll run their asses over!
It's about sharing and karma and trying to keep the 'pecking order' from
getting too rude...another level up from the cyclist is the motor
vehicle driver, and we wouldn't want them to think of cyclists the way
the above cyclist seems to think of pedestrians, would we? (Ouch!) In
general, I personally think the most vulnerable road users out there
need the most care and respect.

David

rick martin wrote:
> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>


Michael O'Hair

2008-09-23

I must be the exception, because before I was allowed to ride my new shiny
Schwinn balloontire (only 34 pounds), I had to learn the entire Oregon Motor
Vehicle Driver's manual. And that included riding "with" traffic. Of
course, there wasn't much traffic in the southwest hills then.

The bottom line was what my old man told me: Pay attention to traffic.

----- Original Message -----
From:

>
> On the same note, I have had discussions with some older riders 60+ that
> when they were young they were taught to also ride against traffic.


shane.young@comcast.net

2008-09-23

I don't know what the law is, but through various organizations thoughout the years, I have always been taught that you walk or run against traffic, so that you can see traffic coming. It is a safety issue. Now that being said, I have also been taught that when traffic is coming you get over as far as possible to be out of the way. Most runners that I see running in a bike lane do not do this.

On the same note, I have had discussions with some older riders 60+ that when they were young they were taught to also ride against traffic.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "david baker"
> Google "running against traffic"
> They all do it, I don't like it either, but I have grown to accept it and go
> around them.
> Check your back first.
> Legal or not, some laws just get broken over and over.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rick martin
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:17 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?
>
>
> can some of you help me out here........................i'm
> curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/
>
>
>
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david baker

2008-09-23

Google "running against traffic"
They all do it, I don't like it either, but I have grown to accept it and go around them.
Check your back first.
Legal or not, some laws just get broken over and over.
----- Original Message -----
From: rick martin
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 8:17 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] wrong way?

can some of you help me out here........................i'm curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/

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rick martin

2008-09-23

can some of you help me out here........................i'm
curious............. http://2tired2quit.wordpress.com/