jillsjunk@comcast.net

Kenji et al.,

I do not think that mens and womens fields should be combined.  I have read through the comments submitted by many, they all have good points. 

I strongly believe that the women's field should stay separate.  If a woman or group of women want to join a mens race, go ahead.  But allow that to be a personal decision.  Do not force all the 1/2 women to race with the men.  Personally I would likely skip any race where I had to race with the men.  I like riding with men.  Hanging onto a wheel at 25 mph is fun, a great workout, and makes me feel all badass.  But I want to see women's racing grow, not loose half the current women (which would include losing me) because they do not choose to race with men.  Women's team tactics would be reduced to "hang on for dear life for as long as possible".   Most of us can do this in training with our male friends.  Personally, I believe that regardless of what everyone else out there thinks of women's racing, we are trying hard to organize into teams, learn team tactics, learn how and when to take chances, attack, get fitter, and race harder in our own field.   I believe that forcing women to race with any mens group would hurt women's racing very much.

All that said, some women really enjoy racing with the men.  That is awesome, let them continue to do so.  But please, oh please, do not force the rest of us to race with the men.  I think many of us women aspire to be in a break of women that sticks, to ride 25 mph on a fellow woman's wheel, and do a lead out that works.

Thanks for reading my opinion.

-Jill Howe

----- Original Message -----
From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
To: "obra women"
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:54:43 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [OBRA Women] Proposal

Hey everyone,

A quick question for you.  This is an idea that I'm floating and would
love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)

Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
safe, relatively speaking.  It would give you excellent pack racing
experience - and potentially give you longer races.  In addition, I
would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too.  This would
give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.

In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race.  But.. the 3/4 women's
races will not count toward upgrades to 2.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

shari.white@comcast.net

I think that giving the Cat 3 women a choice between racing with the 1/2s or the 4s is great.   As a Cat 2, I wouldn't have a choice and, while I completely agree with Suz Weldon about women's racing not always pushing the limit, the whole dynamic changes by racing with the men.

This will mean that the winners of our races will be those who can hang with the men on the climbs like Martha Walsh described.  I've sat in on a few men's races and it can be fun because of the additional challenge, but it's not really women's racing anymore. 

If this is simply because the numbers are too small, I understand and I will still race this year.  I suspect, however, that even fewer women will race when given this scenario.

Thanks for listening-

Shari

 
----- Original Message -----
From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
To: "obra women"
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:54:43 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [OBRA Women] Proposal

Hey everyone,

A quick question for you.  This is an idea that I'm floating and would
love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)

Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
safe, relatively speaking.  It would give you excellent pack racing
experience - and potentially give you longer races.  In addition, I
would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too.  This would
give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.

In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race.  But.. the 3/4 women's
races will not count toward upgrades to 2.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Suz Weldon

sorry, but i repectfully disagree with most respondents here.
(disclaimer: i am unlikely to be doing any racing in oregon anytime
soon, so you don't have to listen to my opinions. but i do have some
good insight.)

i race in WA, and in '08 the 1/2 women did several races with the
master-a men. i think i did every one of those races. a few women
complained about it, but most of us had a blast (and even those of us
that occasionally complained about the men's tactics, still had a
blast, and would not want to change it.) occasionally i will go and
race with men's fields when i am prepping for an NRC race, but the
combination with the master men made our races faster, usually longer,
and a helluva lot more fun. so i didn't have to do a men's race to
have a decent workout, and was able to race with my teammates. in the
past, there often were as many as 6-7 of us choosing to do men's races
so that we could race with a larger, faster pack, which is closer to
an NRC experience (but actually not as hard). with the new format,
most or all of us chose to race with the women (and master men).

martha states that we sometimes get cat-5 master get in the way, but
we were always (only) combined with master-a's, which is cat 1-3, so
no cat-5's in there. sure, some were less experienced, and didn't
listen to what we told them, but that's a minor annoyance, not a
reason to not race with them.

sometimes the women's fields, especially when small and with no teams
of 3 or moew, tend to go slower than they are capable of. not so when
they combine with the master men's field. you see, most of us are
quite capable of going faster, and being combined with the master
men's field gives us the perfect opportunity to be pushed to our limits.

i also have to disagree that the combo makes it become a men's race.
in the mason lake series last year, the women's and master men's
fields were often similar numbers, and the women were often the
aggressors. i would say we had more control of the race than the men.
we attacked WAY more often. oh sure, the men would sometimes chase and
compete with the women (even though we were being scored separately)
but that's part of the game, and what makes us stronger.

again, i won't be doing any local races in oregon this year, but if
oregon women want to challenge themselves in '09, this is a great
place to start.

but i don't know if putting cat-3 women in there is a good idea...

thanks for listening,
suz weldon

Quoting Sarah Brown :

>
> We do this in Idaho because of our tiny women's fields. Frankly I
> dislike it because tactics and race dynamics are skewed due to the
> men's strength. If we choose to race with the men on our own terms
> we can do so individually.
> Thanks for asking us first!!
>
> Sarah Brown
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:54:43 -0700
>> From: kenji@obra.org
>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Proposal
>>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> A quick question for you. This is an idea that I'm floating and would
>> love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)
>>
>> Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
>> In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
>> safe, relatively speaking. It would give you excellent pack racing
>> experience - and potentially give you longer races. In addition, I
>> would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too. This would
>> give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
>> feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
>> like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.
>>
>> In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
>> scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race. But.. the 3/4 women's
>> races will not count toward upgrades to 2.
>>
>> Any thoughts would be appreciated!
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live? Contacts: Organize your contact list.
> http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009

jakeshouseajm@comcast.net

So I do not understand why the 3/4 race would not count for upgrading to a 2.  That means that you have to race with the Masters men to upgrad to a 2.  That seems that it limits the choice for women. I am not a 3, so this is not an issue for me however it seems odd to me.  Is there something I am missing?

Thanks!

Sheilagh

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:54:43 -0700
From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
Subject: [OBRA Women] Proposal
To: obra_women@list.obra.org
Message-ID:
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hey everyone,

A quick question for you.  This is an idea that I'm floating and would
love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)

Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
safe, relatively speaking.  It would give you excellent pack racing
experience - and potentially give you longer races.  In addition, I
would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too.  This would
give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.

In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race.  But.. the 3/4 women's
races will not count toward upgrades to 2.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Sarah Brown

We do this in Idaho because of our tiny women's fields. Frankly I dislike it because tactics and race dynamics are skewed due to the men's strength. If we choose to race with the men on our own terms we can do so individually.
Thanks for asking us first!!

Sarah Brown

> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:54:43 -0700
> From: kenji@obra.org
> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Proposal
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> A quick question for you. This is an idea that I'm floating and would
> love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)
>
> Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
> In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
> safe, relatively speaking. It would give you excellent pack racing
> experience - and potentially give you longer races. In addition, I
> would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too. This would
> give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
> feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
> like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.
>
> In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
> scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race. But.. the 3/4 women's
> races will not count toward upgrades to 2.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated!
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list.
http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!503D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009

Kenji Sugahara

This feedback is excellent. Ladies! Please speak up!

Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
503-302-4935

On Mar 12, 2009, at 11:29 AM, valentins@comcast.net wrote:

> My experience from racing this way in WA is mixed. It definitely
> changes the outcomes of our races. Those with better fitness get
> more of an advantage with the Master Men (for instance a strong
> woman might not attack and choose to race 40 mi off the front on her
> own in a women's field, but with a men's field she can simply hold
> on longer and wait for everyone else to simply get dropped first).
> In fact, there was no real need for any women's team tactics in
> these races. Attacking doesn't force other women to come chase you,
> they can simply sit on the men who are either going to respond or
> just sweep you up as their race unfolds. As someone who tends to
> rely more on racing tactically than my fitness, I prefer racing with
> a women-only field. Also, and I've only heard this anecdotaly, it's
> harder for the new 3s to then make the jump to 123 racing with the
> men.
>
> It's not all bad. Larger fields definitely give you a different
> (and in my opinion more fun) racing experience. I also got some of
> my best workouts in these races.
>
> Still, overall I'd rather train with the men and race with the women.
>
> Thanks for asking for input
> Sirikit
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
> To: "obra women"
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:54:43 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Proposal
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> A quick question for you. This is an idea that I'm floating and would
> love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)
>
> Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
> In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
> safe, relatively speaking. It would give you excellent pack racing
> experience - and potentially give you longer races. In addition, I
> would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too. This would
> give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
> feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
> like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.
>
> In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
> scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race. But.. the 3/4 women's
> races will not count toward upgrades to 2.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated!
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

valentins@comcast.net

My experience from racing this way in WA is mixed.  It definitely changes the outcomes of our races.  Those with better fitness get more of an advantage with the Master Men (for instance a strong woman might not attack and choose to race 40 mi off the front on her own in a women's field, but with a men's field she can simply hold on longer and wait for everyone else to simply get dropped first).  In fact, there was no real need for any women's team tactics in these races.  Attacking doesn't force other women to come chase you, they can simply sit on the men who are either going to respond or just sweep you up as their race unfolds.  As someone who tends to rely more on racing tactically than my fitness, I prefer racing with a women-only field.  Also, and I've only heard this anecdotaly , it's harder for the new 3s to then make the jump to 123 racing with the men.

It's not all bad.  Larger fields definitely give you a different (and in my opinion more fun) racing experience.  I also got some of my best workouts in these races.

Still, overall I'd rather train with the men and race with the women.

Thanks for asking for input

Sirikit

----- Original Message -----
From: "T. Kenji Sugahara " < kenji @ obra .org>
To: " obra women" < obra _women@list. obra .org>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:54:43 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [ OBRA Women] Proposal

Hey everyone,

A quick question for you.  This is an idea that I'm floating and would
love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)

Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
safe, relatively speaking.  It would give you excellent pack racing
experience - and potentially give you longer races.  In addition, I
would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too.  This would
give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.

In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race.  But.. the 3/4 women's
races will not count toward upgrades to 2.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
_______________________________________________
OBRA _Women mailing list
OBRA _Women@list. obra .org
http ://list. obra .org/mailman/ listinfo / obra _women

Anne Linton

i like the idea, in particular having the 3/4 women option so that we can
have our teammates racing together....

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:54 AM, T. Kenji Sugahara wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> A quick question for you. This is an idea that I'm floating and would
> love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)
>
> Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
> In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
> safe, relatively speaking. It would give you excellent pack racing
> experience - and potentially give you longer races. In addition, I
> would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too. This would
> give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
> feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
> like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.
>
> In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
> scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race. But.. the 3/4 women's
> races will not count toward upgrades to 2.
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated!
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>

T. Kenji Sugahara

Hey everyone,

A quick question for you. This is an idea that I'm floating and would
love some feedback from you (especially the 1/2/3 women)

Would the 1/2/3 women be interested in racing with the Master's Men?
In essence, this would allow you to race in a larger group that is
safe, relatively speaking. It would give you excellent pack racing
experience - and potentially give you longer races. In addition, I
would encourage promoters to have a Women 3/4 field too. This would
give the Women 3 the option to race with the 4 women if they don't
feel comfortable moving to the 1/2/3 W/Master's field or if they would
like to help their 4 women teammates and help provide instruction.

In terms of upgrades, I would also still request that the 3 Women be
scored separately in the 1/2/3 Master's race. But.. the 3/4 women's
races will not count toward upgrades to 2.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!