Another proposal

Cheryl Willson

2009-04-08

I don't know about a separate 3 field alone encouraging people. If you
get good turnout, yes, but a long race with only a few riders in a
field is a much different thing than a race with more riders.

I am not familiar with this year's attendance numbers off hand but I'd
say it would be worth considering how small the 3s fields would be
before advocating that they race alone.

On Apr 8, 2009, at 12:24 PM, Kalli Phillips wrote:

> I think Kenji hit the nail on the head with encouraging women to
> make the leap out of the 4's field. It seems like one of the
> differences between the men and women is the ease with which women
> are discouraged early on in their racing endeavor. Either that or
> the attrition is not as obvious because of the increased depth of
> the men's fields.
>
> I understand the "numbers" issue, but that can be a circular
> argument and doesn't answer the more fundamental "chicken and egg"
> question. Are the upper category fields small because the racers
> are discouraged, or are they small because they haven't really been
> encouraged? Just playing it by the numbers sounds to me more like
> an economist's argument to maintain the status quo. The dynamics of
> women's racing is very different from the men's, and growing women's
> racing anywhere will need an approach that is different from that
> used to foster men's racing. Having this dialogue and being willing
> to change some things is a wonderful start.
>
> That being said, my 2 cents is that having a separate 3 field will
> do more to encourage the upcoming 3's and allow more time to develop
> fitness and skill before being thrown in with the 1/2's. There are
> sure to be growing pains with this change, but I think it is very
> far-thinking and will pay dividends in future seasons.
>
> Thanks again Kenji for getting the ball rolling.
>
> Kalli Phillips
> Cat 4
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women


Kalli Phillips

2009-04-08

I think Kenji hit the nail on the head with encouraging women to make
the leap out of the 4's field. It seems like one of the differences
between the men and women is the ease with which women are discouraged
early on in their racing endeavor. Either that or the attrition is
not as obvious because of the increased depth of the men's fields.

I understand the "numbers" issue, but that can be a circular argument
and doesn't answer the more fundamental "chicken and egg" question.
Are the upper category fields small because the racers are
discouraged, or are they small because they haven't really been
encouraged? Just playing it by the numbers sounds to me more like an
economist's argument to maintain the status quo. The dynamics of
women's racing is very different from the men's, and growing women's
racing anywhere will need an approach that is different from that used
to foster men's racing. Having this dialogue and being willing to
change some things is a wonderful start.

That being said, my 2 cents is that having a separate 3 field will do
more to encourage the upcoming 3's and allow more time to develop
fitness and skill before being thrown in with the 1/2's. There are
sure to be growing pains with this change, but I think it is very far-
thinking and will pay dividends in future seasons.

Thanks again Kenji for getting the ball rolling.

Kalli Phillips
Cat 4


Candi Murray

2009-04-08

I believe that the rule was voted on at the 2008 meeting. If not that one
then the 2007 one for sure.
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: kenji73sugahara@gmail.com [mailto:kenji73sugahara@gmail.com] On Behalf
Of T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 7:25 AM
To: Kerri Vanden Berg
Cc: cmurray@obra.org; obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal

Looking at past races back through 2006, Master's have been lumped together
with the Cat 4's. If indeed that this is a violation as Candi asserts, then
the Master's fields must be broken up into two fields.

Otherwise a change must be made to the racing rules at the next annual
meeting.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Kerri Vanden Berg
wrote:
> A rider can be a category 3, 4, or master, or both ehh? is that
> incorrect. If they want to ride in the beginner race, they register as
> a cat 4.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
>> Masters cannot ride with what ever  field they want, were did you get
>> that idea?
>> The rules read:
>>
>> 6.6 Mixing of Classes and Categories
>> 6.6.1 Eligibility. No rider may race in a category other than that
>> which is stated on his or her membership.
>> 6.6.2. Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age,
>> category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized
>> races for men that are up to one category lower than their women's
>> category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
>>  6.6.3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined
>> classifications and categories but the categories in a given race
>> must be the same for all age groups.  All riders shall race the same
>> distance unless there is a distance handicapped start for separate
groupings of riders.
>> Candi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>> Sugahara
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:57 PM
>> To: Kim Rueter
>> Cc: OBRA Women
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>
>> This is it exactly.
>>
>> This really has to do with racer retention.  Women who are upgraded
>> to Cat 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's.  There is
>> too much of a jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is
>> discouraging as they are spit out the back and it's no fun just
>> riding by yourself.  Frankly, you could do it on your own time- and for
many that ends their racing career.
>> There are many 4 women out there who don't want to upgrade just for
>> this
>> reason- and that's maybe why there are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat
3's.
>>
>> There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women
>> "because it's different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets
>> in the way."  I beg to differ.  There are many professional women out
>> there that I know who don't have time to train to keep up with the
>> 1/2's but still want to race- and have the skills to race competently.
>>
>> What it comes down to is a numbers game.  From what I've seen this
>> year, the Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong.  Some of the
>> ladies I've upgraded to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers
>> into the Cat 4's.  The more 4's there are, the more 3's there will
>> be, and eventually more 1/2's there will be.  The "you should be a
promoter"
>> answer is a non-starter.  If the numbers are there, the economics play
out.
>> You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
>> That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking
>> about road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues
>> with extra support vehicles or extra officials.
>>
>> Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
>> It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't
>> thought that far ahead.
>>
>> I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd
>> like to see it extended to other crits/races.  It's been successful
>> in Washington, and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be
>> successful here- and Martha can attest to this.  I don't want to see
>> women getting the short of the stick- I want equity.  And I want to
>> see the women's fields to be just as big as the guys.
>>
>> Why?  Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge
success.
>>
>> Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and
support.
>>
>> k-
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
>>> Candi,
>>>
>>> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low
>>> *because* the CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because
>>> my son won't eat a plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not
>>> hungry. He just doesn't like vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs
it down.
>>>
>>> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it
>>> didn't work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to
>>> develop women's racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair.
>> Hopefully the "numbers"
>>> will fix themselves under a better system.
>>>
>>> Kim
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>>>
>>>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>>>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
>>>> the state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
>>>> comes out to race. I have been to very many races when the total
>>>> number of women were less then 10.
>>>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
>>>> on for 4 cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only
>>>> field it makes sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>>>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
>>>> yourself and see what the turn out is.
>>>> Candi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>>>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>>>> Sugahara
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>>>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>>>
>>>> Well idea...
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
>>>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:
>>>>
>>>> P/1/2
>>>> Cat 3/Mst W
>>>> Cat 4
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?
>>>>
>>>> k-
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>
>


T. Kenji Sugahara

2009-04-08

Looking at past races back through 2006, Master's have been lumped
together with the Cat 4's. If indeed that this is a violation as
Candi asserts, then the Master's fields must be broken up into two
fields.

Otherwise a change must be made to the racing rules at the next annual meeting.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Kerri Vanden Berg wrote:
> A rider can be a category 3, 4, or master, or both ehh? is that
> incorrect. If they want to ride in the beginner race, they register as
> a cat 4.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
>> Masters cannot ride with what ever  field they want, were did you get that
>> idea?
>> The rules read:
>>
>> 6.6 Mixing of Classes and Categories
>> 6.6.1 Eligibility. No rider may race in a category other than that which is
>> stated on his or her membership.
>> 6.6.2. Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age,
>> category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races
>> for men that are up to one category lower than their women's category, or in
>> the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
>>  6.6.3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined
>> classifications and categories but the categories in a given race must be
>> the same for all age groups.  All riders shall race the same distance unless
>> there is a distance handicapped start for separate groupings of riders.
>> Candi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:57 PM
>> To: Kim Rueter
>> Cc: OBRA Women
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>
>> This is it exactly.
>>
>> This really has to do with racer retention.  Women who are upgraded to Cat
>> 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's.  There is too much of a
>> jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is discouraging as they are
>> spit out the back and it's no fun just riding by yourself.  Frankly, you
>> could do it on your own time- and for many that ends their racing career.
>> There are many 4 women out there who don't want to upgrade just for this
>> reason- and that's maybe why there are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat 3's.
>>
>> There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women "because it's
>> different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in the way."  I beg to
>> differ.  There are many professional women out there that I know who don't
>> have time to train to keep up with the 1/2's but still want to race- and
>> have the skills to race competently.
>>
>> What it comes down to is a numbers game.  From what I've seen this year, the
>> Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong.  Some of the ladies I've upgraded
>> to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into the Cat 4's.  The more 4's
>> there are, the more 3's there will be, and eventually more 1/2's there will
>> be.  The "you should be a promoter"
>> answer is a non-starter.  If the numbers are there, the economics play out.
>> You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
>> That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking about
>> road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues with extra
>> support vehicles or extra officials.
>>
>> Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
>> It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't thought
>> that far ahead.
>>
>> I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd like to
>> see it extended to other crits/races.  It's been successful in Washington,
>> and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be successful here- and
>> Martha can attest to this.  I don't want to see women getting the short of
>> the stick- I want equity.  And I want to see the women's fields to be just
>> as big as the guys.
>>
>> Why?  Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge success.
>>
>> Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and support.
>>
>> k-
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
>>> Candi,
>>>
>>> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because*
>>> the CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son won't
>>> eat a plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He just
>>> doesn't like vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
>>>
>>> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it
>>> didn't work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to
>>> develop women's racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair.
>> Hopefully the "numbers"
>>> will fix themselves under a better system.
>>>
>>> Kim
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>>>
>>>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>>>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
>>>> the state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
>>>> comes out to race. I have been to very many races when the total
>>>> number of women were less then 10.
>>>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
>>>> on for 4 cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only
>>>> field it makes sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>>>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
>>>> yourself and see what the turn out is.
>>>> Candi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>>>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>>>> Sugahara
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>>>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>>>
>>>> Well idea...
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
>>>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:
>>>>
>>>> P/1/2
>>>> Cat 3/Mst W
>>>> Cat 4
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?
>>>>
>>>> k-
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>
>


Meg Mautner

2009-04-08

My 2 cents--

I appreciate everyone's efforts to do what's best for the women
racers in Oregon. I have to agree with Candi and Jan, though. I don't
think the numbers support having a separate cat 3 field for the
women. Combining the cat 1-3's makes sense for a promoter--if the
numbers start to justify a separate field, then great.

I don't know of any women who have quit the sport because they got
upgraded to a 3 and then couldn't handle the racing. The fields of
cat 4 women who have been racing this year are phenomenal. I'm hoping
a lot of them get their upgrades and get to race in a combined 1-3
field. That's the best of both worlds. The 3's are scored separately,
but have the chance to ride with the 1-2's, see their lines, their
cornering skills, their speed, etc. It helps make the 3's much better
racers.

Meg

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>> Sugahara
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:57 PM
>> To: Kim Rueter
>> Cc: OBRA Women
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>
>> This is it exactly.
>>
>> This really has to do with racer retention. Women who are
>> upgraded to Cat
>> 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's. There is too
>> much of a
>> jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is discouraging
>> as they are
>> spit out the back and it's no fun just riding by yourself.
>> Frankly, you
>> could do it on your own time- and for many that ends their racing
>> career.
>> There are many 4 women out there who don't want to upgrade just
>> for this
>> reason- and that's maybe why there are so many Cat 4's but so
>> fewer Cat 3's.
>>
>> There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women
>> "because it's
>> different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in the
>> way." I beg to
>> differ. There are many professional women out there that I know
>> who don't
>> have time to train to keep up with the 1/2's but still want to
>> race- and
>> have the skills to race competently.
>>
>> What it comes down to is a numbers game. From what I've seen this
>> year, the
>> Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong. Some of the ladies I've
>> upgraded
>> to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into the Cat 4's.
>> The more 4's
>> there are, the more 3's there will be, and eventually more 1/2's
>> there will
>> be. The "you should be a promoter"
>> answer is a non-starter. If the numbers are there, the economics
>> play out.
>> You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
>> That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking
>> about
>> road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues with
>> extra
>> support vehicles or extra officials.
>>
>> Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
>> It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I
>> haven't thought
>> that far ahead.
>>
>> I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd
>> like to
>> see it extended to other crits/races. It's been successful in
>> Washington,
>> and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be successful here-
>> and
>> Martha can attest to this. I don't want to see women getting the
>> short of
>> the stick- I want equity. And I want to see the women's fields to
>> be just
>> as big as the guys.
>>
>> Why? Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a
>> huge success.
>>
>> Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and
>> support.
>>
>> k-
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter
>> wrote:
>>> Candi,
>>>
>>> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low
>>> *because*
>>> the CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son
>>> won't
>>> eat a plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He just
>>> doesn't like vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
>>>
>>> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it
>>> didn't work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to
>>> develop women's racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair.
>> Hopefully the "numbers"
>>> will fix themselves under a better system.
>>>
>>> Kim
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>>>
>>>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>>>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
>>>> the state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
>>>> comes out to race. I have been to very many races when the total
>>>> number of women were less then 10.
>>>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
>>>> on for 4 cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only
>>>> field it makes sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>>>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
>>>> yourself and see what the turn out is.
>>>> Candi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>>>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>>>> Sugahara
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>>>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>>>
>>>> Well idea...
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
>>>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
>>>>
>>>> P/1/2
>>>> Cat 3/Mst W
>>>> Cat 4
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
>>>>
>>>> k-
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women


Kerri Vanden Berg

2009-04-07

A rider can be a category 3, 4, or master, or both ehh? is that
incorrect. If they want to ride in the beginner race, they register as
a cat 4.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 10:51 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
> Masters cannot ride with what ever  field they want, were did you get that
> idea?
> The rules read:
>
> 6.6 Mixing of Classes and Categories
> 6.6.1 Eligibility. No rider may race in a category other than that which is
> stated on his or her membership.
> 6.6.2. Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age,
> category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races
> for men that are up to one category lower than their women's category, or in
> the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
>  6.6.3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined
> classifications and categories but the categories in a given race must be
> the same for all age groups.  All riders shall race the same distance unless
> there is a distance handicapped start for separate groupings of riders.
> Candi
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:57 PM
> To: Kim Rueter
> Cc: OBRA Women
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
> This is it exactly.
>
> This really has to do with racer retention.  Women who are upgraded to Cat
> 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's.  There is too much of a
> jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is discouraging as they are
> spit out the back and it's no fun just riding by yourself.  Frankly, you
> could do it on your own time- and for many that ends their racing career.
> There are many 4 women out there who don't want to upgrade just for this
> reason- and that's maybe why there are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat 3's.
>
> There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women "because it's
> different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in the way."  I beg to
> differ.  There are many professional women out there that I know who don't
> have time to train to keep up with the 1/2's but still want to race- and
> have the skills to race competently.
>
> What it comes down to is a numbers game.  From what I've seen this year, the
> Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong.  Some of the ladies I've upgraded
> to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into the Cat 4's.  The more 4's
> there are, the more 3's there will be, and eventually more 1/2's there will
> be.  The "you should be a promoter"
> answer is a non-starter.  If the numbers are there, the economics play out.
> You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
> That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking about
> road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues with extra
> support vehicles or extra officials.
>
> Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
> It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't thought
> that far ahead.
>
> I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd like to
> see it extended to other crits/races.  It's been successful in Washington,
> and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be successful here- and
> Martha can attest to this.  I don't want to see women getting the short of
> the stick- I want equity.  And I want to see the women's fields to be just
> as big as the guys.
>
> Why?  Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge success.
>
> Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and support.
>
> k-
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
>> Candi,
>>
>> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because*
>> the CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son won't
>> eat a plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He just
>> doesn't like vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
>>
>> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it
>> didn't work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to
>> develop women's racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair.
> Hopefully the "numbers"
>> will fix themselves under a better system.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>>
>>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
>>> the state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
>>> comes out to race. I have been to very many races when the total
>>> number of women were less then 10.
>>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
>>> on for 4 cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only
>>> field it makes sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
>>> yourself and see what the turn out is.
>>> Candi
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>>> Sugahara
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>>
>>> Well idea...
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
>>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:
>>>
>>> P/1/2
>>> Cat 3/Mst W
>>> Cat 4
>>>
>>> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?
>>>
>>> k-
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>


Melissa Boyd

2009-04-07

I have been in a race where the masters were combined with the cat 1-2-3's.
(Banana Belt #2, 2008.) So, cat-4 masters were racing with 1-2-3's. And,
sure enough, the masters got dropped and ended up riding alone. Not fun.

Melissa

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:19 PM, Candi Murray wrote:

> And technically if you run the masters with the cat 3s then all the
> masters
> must be cat 3s
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: kenji73sugahara@gmail.com [mailto:kenji73sugahara@gmail.com] On
> Behalf
> Of T. Kenji Sugahara
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:12 PM
> To: cmurray@obra.org
> Cc: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
> They may ride whatever category they qualify for.
>
> e.g. If they are a Cat 4- then Cat 4, Cat 3 then Cat 3.
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
> > Masters cannot ride with what ever field they want, were did you get
> > that idea?
> > The rules read:
> >
> > 6.6 Mixing of Classes and Categories
> > 6.6.1 Eligibility. No rider may race in a category other than that
> > which is stated on his or her membership.
> > 6.6.2. Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age,
> > category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized
> > races for men that are up to one category lower than their women's
> > category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
> > 6.6.3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined
> > classifications and categories but the categories in a given race must
> > be the same for all age groups. All riders shall race the same
> > distance unless there is a distance handicapped start for separate
> groupings of riders.
> > Candi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
> > [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
> > Sugahara
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:57 PM
> > To: Kim Rueter
> > Cc: OBRA Women
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
> >
> > This is it exactly.
> >
> > This really has to do with racer retention. Women who are upgraded to
> > Cat 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's. There is too
> > much of a jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is
> > discouraging as they are spit out the back and it's no fun just riding
> > by yourself. Frankly, you could do it on your own time- and for many
> that
> ends their racing career.
> > There are many 4 women out there who don't want to upgrade just for
> > this
> > reason- and that's maybe why there are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat
> 3's.
> >
> > There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women
> > "because it's different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in
> > the way." I beg to differ. There are many professional women out
> > there that I know who don't have time to train to keep up with the
> > 1/2's but still want to race- and have the skills to race competently.
> >
> > What it comes down to is a numbers game. From what I've seen this
> > year, the Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong. Some of the
> > ladies I've upgraded to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into
> > the Cat 4's. The more 4's there are, the more 3's there will be, and
> > eventually more 1/2's there will be. The "you should be a promoter"
> > answer is a non-starter. If the numbers are there, the economics play
> out.
> > You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
> > That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking
> > about road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues
> > with extra support vehicles or extra officials.
> >
> > Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
> > It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't
> > thought that far ahead.
> >
> > I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd
> > like to see it extended to other crits/races. It's been successful in
> > Washington, and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be
> > successful here- and Martha can attest to this. I don't want to see
> > women getting the short of the stick- I want equity. And I want to
> > see the women's fields to be just as big as the guys.
> >
> > Why? Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge
> success.
> >
> > Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and
> support.
> >
> > k-
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
> >> Candi,
> >>
> >> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because*
> >> the CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son
> >> won't eat a plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He
> >> just doesn't like vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
> >>
> >> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it
> >> didn't work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to
> >> develop women's racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair.
> > Hopefully the "numbers"
> >> will fix themselves under a better system.
> >>
> >> Kim
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
> >>
> >>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
> >>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
> >>> the state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
> >>> comes out to race. I have been to very many races when the total
> >>> number of women were less then 10.
> >>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
> >>> on for 4 cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only
> >>> field it makes sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
> >>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
> >>> yourself and see what the turn out is.
> >>> Candi
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
> >>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
> >>> Sugahara
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
> >>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> >>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
> >>>
> >>> Well idea...
> >>>
> >>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
> >>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
> >>>
> >>> P/1/2
> >>> Cat 3/Mst W
> >>> Cat 4
> >>>
> >>> Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
> >>>
> >>> k-
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OBRA_Women mailing list
> >>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OBRA_Women mailing list
> >>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA_Women mailing list
> >> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA_Women mailing list
> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>


Candi Murray

2009-04-07

And technically if you run the masters with the cat 3s then all the masters
must be cat 3s

-----Original Message-----
From: kenji73sugahara@gmail.com [mailto:kenji73sugahara@gmail.com] On Behalf
Of T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:12 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org
Cc: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal

They may ride whatever category they qualify for.

e.g. If they are a Cat 4- then Cat 4, Cat 3 then Cat 3.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
> Masters cannot ride with what ever  field they want, were did you get
> that idea?
> The rules read:
>
> 6.6 Mixing of Classes and Categories
> 6.6.1 Eligibility. No rider may race in a category other than that
> which is stated on his or her membership.
> 6.6.2. Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age,
> category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized
> races for men that are up to one category lower than their women's
> category, or in the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
>  6.6.3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined
> classifications and categories but the categories in a given race must
> be the same for all age groups.  All riders shall race the same
> distance unless there is a distance handicapped start for separate
groupings of riders.
> Candi
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
> Sugahara
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:57 PM
> To: Kim Rueter
> Cc: OBRA Women
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
> This is it exactly.
>
> This really has to do with racer retention.  Women who are upgraded to
> Cat 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's.  There is too
> much of a jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is
> discouraging as they are spit out the back and it's no fun just riding
> by yourself.  Frankly, you could do it on your own time- and for many that
ends their racing career.
> There are many 4 women out there who don't want to upgrade just for
> this
> reason- and that's maybe why there are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat
3's.
>
> There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women
> "because it's different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in
> the way."  I beg to differ.  There are many professional women out
> there that I know who don't have time to train to keep up with the
> 1/2's but still want to race- and have the skills to race competently.
>
> What it comes down to is a numbers game.  From what I've seen this
> year, the Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong.  Some of the
> ladies I've upgraded to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into
> the Cat 4's.  The more 4's there are, the more 3's there will be, and
> eventually more 1/2's there will be.  The "you should be a promoter"
> answer is a non-starter.  If the numbers are there, the economics play
out.
> You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
> That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking
> about road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues
> with extra support vehicles or extra officials.
>
> Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
> It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't
> thought that far ahead.
>
> I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd
> like to see it extended to other crits/races.  It's been successful in
> Washington, and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be
> successful here- and Martha can attest to this.  I don't want to see
> women getting the short of the stick- I want equity.  And I want to
> see the women's fields to be just as big as the guys.
>
> Why?  Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge
success.
>
> Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and
support.
>
> k-
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
>> Candi,
>>
>> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because*
>> the CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son
>> won't eat a plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He
>> just doesn't like vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
>>
>> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it
>> didn't work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to
>> develop women's racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair.
> Hopefully the "numbers"
>> will fix themselves under a better system.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>>
>>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
>>> the state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
>>> comes out to race. I have been to very many races when the total
>>> number of women were less then 10.
>>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
>>> on for 4 cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only
>>> field it makes sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
>>> yourself and see what the turn out is.
>>> Candi
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>>> Sugahara
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>>
>>> Well idea...
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
>>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:
>>>
>>> P/1/2
>>> Cat 3/Mst W
>>> Cat 4
>>>
>>> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?
>>>
>>> k-
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
>


T. Kenji Sugahara

2009-04-07

They may ride whatever category they qualify for.

e.g. If they are a Cat 4- then Cat 4, Cat 3 then Cat 3.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
> Masters cannot ride with what ever  field they want, were did you get that
> idea?
> The rules read:
>
> 6.6 Mixing of Classes and Categories
> 6.6.1 Eligibility. No rider may race in a category other than that which is
> stated on his or her membership.
> 6.6.2. Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age,
> category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races
> for men that are up to one category lower than their women's category, or in
> the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
>  6.6.3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined
> classifications and categories but the categories in a given race must be
> the same for all age groups.  All riders shall race the same distance unless
> there is a distance handicapped start for separate groupings of riders.
> Candi
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:57 PM
> To: Kim Rueter
> Cc: OBRA Women
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
> This is it exactly.
>
> This really has to do with racer retention.  Women who are upgraded to Cat
> 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's.  There is too much of a
> jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is discouraging as they are
> spit out the back and it's no fun just riding by yourself.  Frankly, you
> could do it on your own time- and for many that ends their racing career.
> There are many 4 women out there who don't want to upgrade just for this
> reason- and that's maybe why there are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat 3's.
>
> There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women "because it's
> different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in the way."  I beg to
> differ.  There are many professional women out there that I know who don't
> have time to train to keep up with the 1/2's but still want to race- and
> have the skills to race competently.
>
> What it comes down to is a numbers game.  From what I've seen this year, the
> Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong.  Some of the ladies I've upgraded
> to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into the Cat 4's.  The more 4's
> there are, the more 3's there will be, and eventually more 1/2's there will
> be.  The "you should be a promoter"
> answer is a non-starter.  If the numbers are there, the economics play out.
> You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
> That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking about
> road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues with extra
> support vehicles or extra officials.
>
> Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
> It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't thought
> that far ahead.
>
> I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd like to
> see it extended to other crits/races.  It's been successful in Washington,
> and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be successful here- and
> Martha can attest to this.  I don't want to see women getting the short of
> the stick- I want equity.  And I want to see the women's fields to be just
> as big as the guys.
>
> Why?  Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge success.
>
> Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and support.
>
> k-
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
>> Candi,
>>
>> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because*
>> the CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son won't
>> eat a plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He just
>> doesn't like vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
>>
>> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it
>> didn't work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to
>> develop women's racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair.
> Hopefully the "numbers"
>> will fix themselves under a better system.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>>
>>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
>>> the state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
>>> comes out to race. I have been to very many races when the total
>>> number of women were less then 10.
>>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
>>> on for 4 cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only
>>> field it makes sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
>>> yourself and see what the turn out is.
>>> Candi
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>>> Sugahara
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>>
>>> Well idea...
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
>>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:
>>>
>>> P/1/2
>>> Cat 3/Mst W
>>> Cat 4
>>>
>>> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?
>>>
>>> k-
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
>


Candi Murray

2009-04-07

Masters cannot ride with what ever field they want, were did you get that
idea?
The rules read:

6.6 Mixing of Classes and Categories
6.6.1 Eligibility. No rider may race in a category other than that which is
stated on his or her membership.
6.6.2. Women may enter any race for which they are eligible by age,
category, and any performance requirements and may enter categorized races
for men that are up to one category lower than their women's category, or in
the case of category 1 women, up to two categories lower.
6.6.3. Mixing of Classes. An organizer may offer races for combined
classifications and categories but the categories in a given race must be
the same for all age groups. All riders shall race the same distance unless
there is a distance handicapped start for separate groupings of riders.
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 5:57 PM
To: Kim Rueter
Cc: OBRA Women
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal

This is it exactly.

This really has to do with racer retention. Women who are upgraded to Cat
3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's. There is too much of a
jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is discouraging as they are
spit out the back and it's no fun just riding by yourself. Frankly, you
could do it on your own time- and for many that ends their racing career.
There are many 4 women out there who don't want to upgrade just for this
reason- and that's maybe why there are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat 3's.

There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women "because it's
different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in the way." I beg to
differ. There are many professional women out there that I know who don't
have time to train to keep up with the 1/2's but still want to race- and
have the skills to race competently.

What it comes down to is a numbers game. From what I've seen this year, the
Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong. Some of the ladies I've upgraded
to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into the Cat 4's. The more 4's
there are, the more 3's there will be, and eventually more 1/2's there will
be. The "you should be a promoter"
answer is a non-starter. If the numbers are there, the economics play out.
You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking about
road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues with extra
support vehicles or extra officials.

Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't thought
that far ahead.

I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd like to
see it extended to other crits/races. It's been successful in Washington,
and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be successful here- and
Martha can attest to this. I don't want to see women getting the short of
the stick- I want equity. And I want to see the women's fields to be just
as big as the guys.

Why? Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge success.

Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and support.

k-

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
> Candi,
>
> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because*
> the CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son won't
> eat a plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He just
> doesn't like vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
>
> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it
> didn't work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to
> develop women's racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair.
Hopefully the "numbers"
> will fix themselves under a better system.
>
> Kim
>
>
> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>
>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
>> the state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
>> comes out to race. I have been to very many races when the total
>> number of women were less then 10.
>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
>> on for 4 cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only
>> field it makes sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
>> yourself and see what the turn out is.
>> Candi
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji
>> Sugahara
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>
>> Well idea...
>>
>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:
>>
>> P/1/2
>> Cat 3/Mst W
>> Cat 4
>>
>> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?
>>
>> k-
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women


Kerri Vanden Berg

2009-04-07

One other idea, Yikes
is to have a beginner/ novice category like PRI. I have not been to
this due to timing, but it makes sense to have this category, seeming
like an introduction to criteriums. This is a way to encourage new
riders of any age to try criteriums, this was also my first taste of
racing, it was appealing because it was a small course and it is was
short. From experience with our women's criterium in Eugene, it really
drew many riders of all ages and levels, in part due to our brief
cinic before the race.
A race: If a cat 4 who is experienced wants to ride with the
3s/experienced masters they have that option.
B race. The other beginner, novice 4's, or other novice master's can
ride in this race.
If you place within the top 3, based on Kenji's discretion you may be
encouraged to race in the A race.
3's and 4"s and Masters scored separetley in the A race.
Just a thought.
Kerri

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 7:56 PM, T. Kenji Sugahara wrote:
> This is it exactly.
>
> This really has to do with racer retention.  Women who are upgraded to
> Cat 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's.  There is too
> much of a jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is
> discouraging as they are spit out the back and it's no fun just riding
> by yourself.  Frankly, you could do it on your own time- and for many
> that ends their racing career.  There are many 4 women out there who
> don't want to upgrade just for this reason- and that's maybe why there
> are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat 3's.
>
> There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women
> "because it's different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in
> the way."  I beg to differ.  There are many professional women out
> there that I know who don't have time to train to keep up with the
> 1/2's but still want to race- and have the skills to race competently.
>
> What it comes down to is a numbers game.  From what I've seen this
> year, the Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong.  Some of the
> ladies I've upgraded to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into
> the Cat 4's.  The more 4's there are, the more 3's there will be, and
> eventually more 1/2's there will be.  The "you should be a promoter"
> answer is a non-starter.  If the numbers are there, the economics play
> out.  You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
> That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking
> about road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues
> with extra support vehicles or extra officials.
>
> Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
> It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't
> thought that far ahead.
>
> I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd
> like to see it extended to other crits/races.  It's been successful in
> Washington, and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be
> successful here- and Martha can attest to this.  I don't want to see
> women getting the short of the stick- I want equity.  And I want to
> see the women's fields to be just as big as the guys.
>
> Why?  Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge success.
>
> Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and support.
>
> k-
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
>> Candi,
>>
>> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because* the
>> CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son won't eat a
>> plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He just doesn't like
>> vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
>>
>> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it didn't
>> work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to develop women's
>> racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair. Hopefully the "numbers"
>> will fix themselves under a better system.
>>
>> Kim
>>
>>
>> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>>
>>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in the
>>> state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field comes out to
>>> race. I have been to very many races when the total number of women were
>>> less then 10.
>>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race on for 4
>>> cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only field it makes
>>> sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter yourself
>>> and see what the turn out is.
>>> Candi
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>>
>>> Well idea...
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat 3/Master's W
>>> fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:
>>>
>>> P/1/2
>>> Cat 3/Mst W
>>> Cat 4
>>>
>>> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?
>>>
>>> k-
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>


T. Kenji Sugahara

2009-04-07

This is it exactly.

This really has to do with racer retention. Women who are upgraded to
Cat 3s are immediately forced to race with the 1/2's. There is too
much of a jump between the 4's and 1/2/3's. For many, this is
discouraging as they are spit out the back and it's no fun just riding
by yourself. Frankly, you could do it on your own time- and for many
that ends their racing career. There are many 4 women out there who
don't want to upgrade just for this reason- and that's maybe why there
are so many Cat 4's but so fewer Cat 3's.

There are some who will argue, there are not that many 3 women
"because it's different for women as family, pregnancy or life gets in
the way." I beg to differ. There are many professional women out
there that I know who don't have time to train to keep up with the
1/2's but still want to race- and have the skills to race competently.

What it comes down to is a numbers game. From what I've seen this
year, the Cat 4 women fields are continuing strong. Some of the
ladies I've upgraded to 3, I've asked them to invite 2 new racers into
the Cat 4's. The more 4's there are, the more 3's there will be, and
eventually more 1/2's there will be. The "you should be a promoter"
answer is a non-starter. If the numbers are there, the economics play
out. You can't get the numbers unless you give the fields a chance.
That's why you try something out first- and we're not even talking
about road races here- it's to start with a crit. There's no issues
with extra support vehicles or extra officials.

Master's can race with whichever field they would like to race with.
It'll come down to figuring out how to do BAR points- but I haven't
thought that far ahead.

I want to have a promoter try this out- and if it's successful I'd
like to see it extended to other crits/races. It's been successful in
Washington, and I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be
successful here- and Martha can attest to this. I don't want to see
women getting the short of the stick- I want equity. And I want to
see the women's fields to be just as big as the guys.

Why? Because I want to see women's cycling in Oregon become a huge success.

Have it be known that you ladies have my unconditional backing and support.

k-

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Kim Rueter wrote:
> Candi,
>
> It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because* the
> CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son won't eat a
> plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He just doesn't like
> vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.
>
> My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it didn't
> work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to develop women's
> racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair. Hopefully the "numbers"
> will fix themselves under a better system.
>
> Kim
>
>
> On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>
>> It really comes down to a numbers question.
>> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in the
>> state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field comes out to
>> race. I have been to very many races when the total number of women were
>> less then 10.
>> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race on for 4
>> cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only field it makes
>> sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
>> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter yourself
>> and see what the turn out is.
>> Candi
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
>> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>
>> Well idea...
>>
>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat 3/Master's W
>> fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:
>>
>> P/1/2
>> Cat 3/Mst W
>> Cat 4
>>
>> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?
>>
>> k-
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>


Suz Weldon

2009-04-07

follow the directions in the link at the bottom of the email.

Quoting A Raymon :

>
> How do I unsubscribe from this mailing list?
>
> From: serenabishop@hotmail.com
> To: kenji@obra.org; obra_women@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:30:31 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree.
>
> Kenji, this is a brilliant idea!
>
> -Serena
>
> Serena Bishop
>
> 541.693.4913
>
> www.runbikeski.com
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:46:42 -0700
>> From: kenji@obra.org
>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>>
>> Well idea...
>>
>> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
>> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
>>
>> P/1/2
>> Cat 3/Mst W
>> Cat 4
>>
>> Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
>>
>> k-
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
> Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry Check it out.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009


A Raymon

2009-04-07

How do I unsubscribe from this mailing list?

From: serenabishop@hotmail.com
To: kenji@obra.org; obra_women@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 12:30:31 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Another proposal

I agree.

Kenji, this is a brilliant idea!

-Serena

Serena Bishop

541.693.4913

www.runbikeski.com

> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:46:42 -0700
> From: kenji@obra.org
> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
> Well idea...
>
> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
>
> P/1/2
> Cat 3/Mst W
> Cat 4
>
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
>
> k-
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry Check it out.
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_042009


Serena Bishop

2009-04-07

I agree.

Kenji, this is a brilliant idea!

-Serena

Serena Bishop

541.693.4913

www.runbikeski.com

> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:46:42 -0700
> From: kenji@obra.org
> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
> Well idea...
>
> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
>
> P/1/2
> Cat 3/Mst W
> Cat 4
>
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
>
> k-
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile1_042009


Jan Moss

2009-04-07

DAng it if Candi didn't beat me to the point.

I concur with her. If separating this ways means I have to race
against 4 women, then that does not provide a great race, a chance to
improve skill, etc.... I've said it before and I'll say it again...we
need more women to consistently come out to the races whatever the
category mix and prove we will race. Then, we can start asking for
separate categories.

I'm also wondering if there is enough time in the day to do as you
propose. If we "add" a field of women 3/masters, are we doing it by
squeezing the race times. No one is going to come to a 20min crit.
And since Henry Abel is actively trying to get the same promoters to
add tandem fields, we either have 14 hour race permits or really
short races.

Now as someone who has often raced as a Master AND then in the 1/2/3
race, your proposal is taking away a race for me. Although I'll admit
there are not many who opt for this race day tactic. It is the
benefit of getting old...more opportunity to race :)
I do appreciate your willingness to bring up the point for
discussion. BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:12px; }
On Tue 09/04/ 7 11:11 , "Candi Murray" cmurray@obra.org sent:
It really comes down to a numbers question.
There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in
the
state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field
comes out to
race. I have been to very many races when the total number of women
were
less then 10.
This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race
on for 4
cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only field it
makes
sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter
yourself
and see what the turn out is.
Candi
-----Original Message-----
From:
[] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
To:
Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
Well idea...
I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
3/Master's W
fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
P/1/2
Cat 3/Mst W
Cat 4
Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
k-
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women [5]
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women [7]

Links:
------
[5]
http://webmail.uslogin.net/parse.php?redirect=http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
[7]
http://webmail.uslogin.net/parse.php?redirect=http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women


Kim Rueter

2009-04-07

Candi,

It's the 'ol cause and effect thing. Maybe turnouts are low *because* the
CAT 3s don't want to race with the 1-2s. Just because my son won't eat a
plate full of of veggies doesn't mean he's not hungry. He just doesn't like
vegetables. Offer him a burger and he woofs it down.

My point is it can't hurt to try it out, right? And just because it didn't
work in the past, doesn't mean it can't work now. We need to develop women's
racing based on what is appropriate, safe, and fair. Hopefully the "numbers"
will fix themselves under a better system.

Kim

On 4/7/09 10:11 AM, "Candi Murray" wrote:

> It really comes down to a numbers question.
> There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in the
> state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field comes out to
> race. I have been to very many races when the total number of women were
> less then 10.
> This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race on for 4
> cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only field it makes
> sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
> Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter yourself
> and see what the turn out is.
> Candi
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
> Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
> Well idea...
>
> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat 3/Master's W
> fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
>
> P/1/2
> Cat 3/Mst W
> Cat 4
>
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
>
> k-
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women


Candi Murray

2009-04-07

It really comes down to a numbers question.
There are 43 cat 1/2 women, 69 Cat 3 women, and 231 cat 4 women in the
state. At any one event about 10 percent of the available field comes out to
race. I have been to very many races when the total number of women were
less then 10.
This would mean that you are asking the race promoter to put a race on for 4
cat 1.2 women, 6 Cat 3 women and 23 Cat 4 women. The only field it makes
sense to run is the Cat 4 field.
Before you suggest that promoters do this, become a race promoter yourself
and see what the turn out is.
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:47 AM
To: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal

Well idea...

I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat 3/Master's W
fields for the crits this year. So races would be:

P/1/2
Cat 3/Mst W
Cat 4

Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?

k-
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women


Melissa Boyd

2009-04-07

This is a good point, Jen. By having masters women (of all cats) race with
the cat-3 women, you are essentially forcing them to upgrade (for that
race). Some masters are experienced and are already cat-3's, but some of us
are new cat-4's and do not want to wreak havoc in the cat-3 field.

I would prefer to see masters race with the cat-4's, and the experienced
cat-3 masters can ride as a cat-3 if they'd rather be in that field.

Melissa

On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:

> Yes!
>
> I think this really becomes important when relatively new (inexperienced)
> riders are 'forced' to upgrade from cat 4 to 3. The speed of crits are
> driven by the cat 1-2s, typically not the cat 3s. So while a really fit cat
> 4 may be able to hang with the 1-2s, their bike handling skills (i.e.
> cornering at high speeds) are premature, putting themselves and others in
> danger. We can only improve if we stay injury-free.
>
> Also, such upgrades often occur just as we enter 'crit season' and so the
> new cat 4 forced to upgrade hasn't really experienced criteriums as a cat 4.
> Cat 3 only crits would offer a venue to gain more experience before entering
> an even faster paced cat 1-2 crit.
>
> As an aside, if you are a 'new' cat 4 or a cat 4 lacking cat 4 criterium
> experience and are 'forced' to upgrade, I would protest the upgrade until
> you and others think you have the experience to race criteriums with the
> 1-2s. Fitness does not equal skill. Skill comes with experience and time.
> Trust me. I wish I would have known this last year when I upgraded - my
> first upgrade race was a crit and guess what? I pulled a rookie move
> (pedaled through a corner), crashed my bike, broke my wrist and hand and
> incurred a head injury.
>
> Jen
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:46:42 -0700
> > From: kenji@obra.org
> > To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
> >
> > Well idea...
> >
> > I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
> > 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
> >
> > P/1/2
> > Cat 3/Mst W
> > Cat 4
> >
> > Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
> >
> > k-
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA_Women mailing list
> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
> ------------------------------
> Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry Check it
> out.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>


Jen Akeroyd

2009-04-07

Yes!

I think this really becomes important when relatively new (inexperienced) riders are 'forced' to upgrade from cat 4 to 3. The speed of crits are driven by the cat 1-2s, typically not the cat 3s. So while a really fit cat 4 may be able to hang with the 1-2s, their bike handling skills (i.e. cornering at high speeds) are premature, putting themselves and others in danger. We can only improve if we stay injury-free.

Also, such upgrades often occur just as we enter 'crit season' and so the new cat 4 forced to upgrade hasn't really experienced criteriums as a cat 4. Cat 3 only crits would offer a venue to gain more experience before entering an even faster paced cat 1-2 crit.

As an aside, if you are a 'new' cat 4 or a cat 4 lacking cat 4 criterium experience and are 'forced' to upgrade, I would protest the upgrade until you and others think you have the experience to race criteriums with the 1-2s. Fitness does not equal skill. Skill comes with experience and time. Trust me. I wish I would have known this last year when I upgraded - my first upgrade race was a crit and guess what? I pulled a rookie move (pedaled through a corner), crashed my bike, broke my wrist and hand and incurred a head injury.

Jen

> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 08:46:42 -0700
> From: kenji@obra.org
> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal
>
> Well idea...
>
> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
>
> P/1/2
> Cat 3/Mst W
> Cat 4
>
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
>
> k-
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_________________________________________________________________
Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry
http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Mobile1_042009


Kim Rueter

2009-04-07

Kenji et al,

YES, YES, YES! We Sorellas were discussing this very same thing this weekend
at the CBC!!

I know we'd love to see that breakdown for ALL races, stage races too! But
crits are a great start. Then as the 1-2 field continues to grow, maybe
stage races will follow suit??? The idea is certainly on the table for the
CBC next year. :-)

Thanks to all you ladies for representing so well in The Dalles this
weekend. Hope you had fun!

Elaine, to answer your question, Masters riders are also categorized riders
too. You always have the choice to race with your CAT (i.e. CAT 4) or with
the Masters. Sometimes they race together, sometimes not. It's the one
benefit of being 40+. You get to choose :-)

Kim Rueter

On 4/7/09 8:46 AM, "T. Kenji Sugahara" wrote:

> Well idea...
>
> I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
> 3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:
>
> P/1/2
> Cat 3/Mst W
> Cat 4
>
> Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?
>
> k-
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women


e.bothe@comcast.net

2009-04-07

Hi Kenji and everyone,  

This format is similar to the mountain bike races. I am in the women's masters field, and I like the format a lot. My only suggestion is to make it more obvious who is a masters rider or not on number plates or tags, I can't always tell who I am racing against. It's all fun and great competition, but knowing who's who might influence a decision on how risky of a pass to make.

Disclaimer, however, I've never raced a criterium but plan to, so I might not know how this would apply in the real world. The masters women I ride against are amazingly strong and talented (keep it up!) and so are the Cat 3s and 4s. 

Like a beginner cyclocrosser or mountain biker of any age, could a masters woman who's not sure where she fits into a criterium field choose Cat 4? 

--Elaine Bothe

----- Original Message -----
From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
To: "obra women"
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 8:46:42 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [OBRA Women] Another proposal

Well idea...

I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
3/Master's W fields for the crits this year.  So races would be:

P/1/2
Cat 3/Mst W
Cat 4

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Input?

k-
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women


T. Kenji Sugahara

2009-04-07

Well idea...

I'm thinking about asking all the promoters to run separate Cat
3/Master's W fields for the crits this year. So races would be:

P/1/2
Cat 3/Mst W
Cat 4

Thoughts? Suggestions? Input?

k-