Re: What are you thinking?

Mark J. Ginsberg

2009-04-12

try this one
http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/A115242.htm

M

Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC

Attorneys At Law

1216 SE Belmont St.

Portland, OR 97214

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com

--- On Sun, 4/12/09, Fergus wrote:
From: Fergus
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What are you thinking?
To: markjginsberg@yahoo.com
Cc: "obra"
Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 10:08 PM

I googled, "state vs. potter" and it turns out there is some guy with a lot of coke and big stick that gets in a tangle with the cops.  Tough break!

On Apr 12, 2009, at 9:22 PM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
Doug,

If you want to argue law, swing for the cheap seats and argue ORS 814.420(2), the hearing requirement.

I will tell you no hearing have ever been held for any bike lane in the entire state of Oregon. I will also tell you I am lawyer, and despite the lack of hearing, the courts regularly convict people for this violation. Google "state vs. potter" to read all about it.
 Though in the past few years I've not seen as many personally.

Mark 

Mark J. Ginsberg 
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC 
Attorneys At Law 
1216 SE Belmont St. 
Portland, OR 97214 
(503) 542-3000 
Fax (503) 233-6874 
markjginsberg@yahoo.com 
www.bikesafetylaw.com

--- On Sun, 4/12/09, Sami Fournier  wrote:
From: Sami Fournier
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What are you thinking?
To: "Doug Hormann" , obra@list.obra.org
Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 6:20 AM

Doug,

Sorry, but according to the ORS 814.420 quoted below, exceptions to the requirement to use the bike lane include:

When a hazard exists
When passing 
When turning left

A hazard includes any surface or other impediment in the bike lane, or any vehicle, including a possible right turning car.  I advise all my students to leave the bike lane if they are going straight through at an intersection, in order to avoid the 'right hook' and the law is on my side there, as you can read below.

Your interpretation of what's legal is shared by many misinformed motorists, but it would be easily countered in court, by any good lawyer, and in any case, it's wrong.

Sorry to be blunt, but cyclists especially are obligated to know the law.

814.420 Failure to use bicycle lane or path; exceptions; penalty. (1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a person commits the offense of failure to use a bicycle lane or path if the person operates a bicycle on any portion of a roadway that is not a bicycle lane or bicycle path when a bicycle lane or bicycle path is adjacent to or near the roadway.      (2) A person is not required to comply with this section unless the state or local authority with jurisdiction over the roadway finds, after public hearing, that the bicycle lane or bicycle path is suitable for safe bicycle use at reasonable rates of speed.      (3) A person is not in violation of the offense under this section if the person is able to safely move out of the bicycle lane or path for the purpose of:      (a) Overtaking and passing another bicycle, a vehicle or a pedestrian that is in the bicycle lane or path and passage cannot safely be made
in the lane or path.      (b) Preparing to execute a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.      (c) Avoiding debris or other hazardous conditions.      (d) Preparing to execute a right turn where a right turn is authorized.      (e) Continuing straight at an intersection where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must turn right.      (4) The offense described in this section, failure to use a bicycle lane or path, is a Class D traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §700; 1985 c.16 §338; 2005 c.316 §3] 

--- On Sat, 4/11/09, Doug Hormann  wrote:

From: Doug Hormann
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
To: "'Obra'"
Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 4:10 PM

You were fine until you wrote “legally elected not to follow the bike lane”.  Unless the bike lane was unsafe to a reasonable person (full of trash, glass, under construction, under water) there is no choice to be made here.  The bike lane is the legal path and you may not “legally” deviate from it.  Convenience; not having to slow down; etc. are not legal reasons to leave the path/lane.  The path in that spot is there to prevent exactly this sort of situation.   The driver of the bus has the obligation to exibit due care when operating the bus, just as cyclists have the same obligation; so if the driver of the bus had seen the bicycle and sped up to “show him who’s boss” then there might be a culpable mental state of the part of the driver.   Having said all that, I’ve been known to take the road vs. the bike lane or path just because I want to, but that doesn’t mean that I can cry foul if I get injured or squashed. 
Doug Hormann 
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Catlin, Wil
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:31 PM
To: Justin Serna; Chris Alling; Obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking. 
 
Yup, it’s hard enough for folks to follow the details of even this one specific situation. 
There was no lane holding by the cyclist: that’s the problem. The ‘on ramp’ there is its own lane in parallel with the two on Barbur that it joins. Form that point down to the Front St. pullout (or so) there are three lanes on Barbur. 
So, the cyclist legally elected not to follow the bike lane and remained in the right lane. Fine. BUT, once he passed Capitol HWY he found himself no longer in the right lane but in the center lane. Bus is in the right lane, heading on down the road toward its next stop like all buses do when they aren’t out hunting for cyclists. Fine again, in that at least the bus is not demonstrably hunting. However, the cyclist then decides he just can’t wait for the bus to pass, in fact wants to beat that damn bus, demoralize the indifferent, godless thing, and forthwith treats all and sundry to a mortality-flaunting display of horsepower and senseless verve by outpacing and then Oh! cutting past the beast, through the lane, a hair’s breadth from harm, safely into the … bike lane. Surely the stuff of demi-gods on earth, yes? Cripes. 
At least, at the very, very least, if cornered and stopped, if pressed by cops or irate drivers, the cyclist wouldn’t have gazed bewildered at the gathered crowd and said… “Bus? I never saw it.” 
 
 
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Justin Serna
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:03 PM
To: Chris Alling; Obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking. 
I would have to agree with Chris in this situation if the cyclist was in fact traveling at the speeds you described he had every right to hold the lane he was in and the bus should have given him the right of way.  However I will agree with you that merging in front of a bus at that speed and proximity is very dangerous.  I have found that quite often bus drivers can be the worst offenders when it comes to giving way to cyclist.  Unfortunately with the increased popularity of cycling we will see many different types of riders just as we see in those who drive automobiles.  I think the key is to judge each situation as an individual case and then remember that everyone has a point of view, but I guess that would be a bit idealistic. 
Cheers and safe training and riding..........
  J. Serna#1250 
 
 
From: Chris Alling
To: Obra
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:54:05 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

>From your description it sounds as if the bus should have yielded the right of way to the cyclist and he should be lambasted for not applying the brakes and yielding. It sounds like the bike was traveling legally with the flow af traffic. 
 From: JRaedeke@roguecc.edu
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:07:49 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.Amen !!!  Let’s all try to not give motorists any reasons to dislike cyclist on the roadways.  Let’s make positive progress.john 
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Rosenfeld
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:38 AM
To: OBRA
Subject: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking. 
I am not one to publicly lambaste another cyclist but I witnessed such a huge display stupidity this morning I have to take the time to vent.  

The incident took place where Capitol Highway merges onto Barbur Blvd.  I have attached a picture of the area to refresh memories.

There is a bike path for those heading towards downtown to go around the overpass and then merge back onto Barbur Blvd safely. 

It was about 7:45am, pouring down rain, and very low visibility.

I was driving (yes I know...you can pick on me for driving) towards downtown and was passing under the overpass.  I see a cyclist with minimal lighting and dark cycling gear, The rain jacket was Red, bluish helmet.  I would have to gauge this cyclist as a racer due to the type of bike, smooth spin, and speed at which he was traveling, also the gear was indicative of someone who knows how to ride in the rain....speed would be maybe 25 to 30 mph.  They decide to bypass the bike path round-about and go under the over pass.  

As I close the distance and pass under the overpass I see a Trimet bus coming down the ramp getting ready to merge onto Barbur from Capitol.

The cyclist stands up and starts to sprint.

The Bus increases speed.

I slow down in case the cyclist needs to veer into my lane....Every muscle in my body tenses and I mutter a curse under my breath through clenched jaws as the cyclist cuts across in front of the bus.  And this is no joke.....there was only 5 feet of clearance between the rear wheel of the cyclist and the bus...it was even less by the time the cyclist clears the bumper of the bus and is safely across the lane.  

The brake lights on the bus never even flickered.

I really thought I was going to watch this guy die....not just hurt but actually dead.  The bus was doing at least mid 30's and would have smeared the cyclist for at least 100+ feet before stopping.

This is the sort of thing that gives people legitimate complaints against cyclists.

I know the argument that some experienced cyclists have with regards to being in control of their environment and know the limitations of their handling skills and speeds....but for goodness sake this was just down right STUPID!!

I hope the cyclist is in fact a racer, a member of OBRA, and is reading this. My message to you is this:

Your actions impact more than just you.  If you had been wrong in your abilities to clear the buses bumper, I and at least 30+ other people would have watch you die.  Horribly.   Think of how the driver of the bus would have felt knowing he or she had taken your life.  For what??  30 extra seconds?  Not wanting to deal a little bit of gravel? Think about this before you do something like this again.  Your actions.....your decisions....have consequences to yourself and others.

I am a cyclist.  I have been riding both competitively and for leisure on and off for 25 years.  I state this to lend credence to my assessment of the situation.

Mike Rosenfeld

 
Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. 

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Fergus

2009-04-12

I googled, "state vs. potter" and it turns out there is some guy with
a lot of coke and big stick that gets in a tangle with the cops.
Tough break!

On Apr 12, 2009, at 9:22 PM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

> Doug,
>
> If you want to argue law, swing for the cheap seats and argue ORS
> 814.420(2), the hearing requirement.
>
> I will tell you no hearing have ever been held for any bike lane in
> the entire state of Oregon. I will also tell you I am lawyer, and
> despite the lack of hearing, the courts regularly convict people for
> this violation. Google "state vs. potter" to read all about it.
> Though in the past few years I've not seen as many personally.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>
> --- On Sun, 4/12/09, Sami Fournier wrote:
> From: Sami Fournier
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What are you thinking?
> To: "Doug Hormann" , obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 6:20 AM
>
> Doug,
>
> Sorry, but according to the ORS 814.420 quoted below, exceptions to
> the requirement to use the bike lane include:
>
> When a hazard exists
> When passing
> When turning left
>
> A hazard includes any surface or other impediment in the bike lane,
> or any vehicle, including a possible right turning car. I advise
> all my students to leave the bike lane if they are going straight
> through at an intersection, in order to avoid the 'right hook' and
> the law is on my side there, as you can read below.
>
> Your interpretation of what's legal is shared by many misinformed
> motorists, but it would be easily countered in court, by any good
> lawyer, and in any case, it's wrong.
>
> Sorry to be blunt, but cyclists especially are obligated to know the
> law.
>
> 814.420 Failure to use bicycle lane or path; exceptions; penalty.
> (1) Except as provided in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, a
> person commits the offense of failure to use a bicycle lane or path
> if the person operates a bicycle on any portion of a roadway that is
> not a bicycle lane or bicycle path when a bicycle lane or bicycle
> path is adjacent to or near the roadway.
> (2) A person is not required to comply with this section
> unless the state or local authority with jurisdiction over the
> roadway finds, after public hearing, that the bicycle lane or
> bicycle path is suitable for safe bicycle use at reasonable rates of
> speed.
>
> (3) A person is not in violation of the offense under this
> section if the person is able to safely move out of the bicycle lane
> or path for the purpose of:
>
> (a) Overtaking and passing another bicycle, a vehicle or a
> pedestrian that is in the bicycle lane or path and passage cannot
> safely be made in the lane or path.
>
> (b) Preparing to execute a left turn at an intersection or
> into a private road or driveway.
>
> (c) Avoiding debris or other hazardous conditions.
>
> (d) Preparing to execute a right turn where a right turn is
> authorized.
>
> (e) Continuing straight at an intersection where the bicycle
> lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle
> must turn right.
>
> (4) The offense described in this section, failure to use a
> bicycle lane or path, is a Class D traffic violation. [1983 c.338
> §700; 1985 c.16 §338; 2005 c.316 §3]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 4/11/09, Doug Hormann wrote:
>
> From: Doug Hormann
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
> To: "'Obra'"
> Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 4:10 PM
>
> You were fine until you wrote “legally elected not to follow the
> bike lane”. Unless the bike lane was unsafe to a reasonable person
> (full of trash, glass, under construction, under water) there is no
> choice to be made here. The bike lane is the legal path and you may
> not “legally” deviate from it. Convenience; not having to slow
> down; etc. are not legal reasons to leave the path/lane. The path
> in that spot is there to prevent exactly this sort of situation.
> The driver of the bus has the obligation to exibit due care when
> operating the bus, just as cyclists have the same obligation; so if
> the driver of the bus had seen the bicycle and sped up to “show him
> who’s boss” then there might be a culpable mental state of the part
> of the driver. Having said all that, I’ve been known to take the
> road vs. the bike lane or path just because I want to, but that
> doesn’t mean that I can cry foul if I get injured or squashed.
>
>
> Doug Hormann
>
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Catlin, Wil
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:31 PM
> To: Justin Serna; Chris Alling; Obra
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
>
>
>
> Yup, it’s hard enough for folks to follow the details of even this
> one specific situation.
>
>
> There was no lane holding by the cyclist: that’s the problem. The
> ‘on ramp’ there is its own lane in parallel with the two on Barbur
> that it joins. Form that point down to the Front St. pullout (or so)
> there are three lanes on Barbur.
>
>
> So, the cyclist legally elected not to follow the bike lane and
> remained in the right lane. Fine. BUT, once he passed Capitol HWY he
> found himself no longer in the right lane but in the center lane.
> Bus is in the right lane, heading on down the road toward its next
> stop like all buses do when they aren’t out hunting for cyclists.
> Fine again, in that at least the bus is not demonstrably hunting.
> However, the cyclist then decides he just can’t wait for the bus to
> pass, in fact wants to beat that damn bus, demoralize the
> indifferent, godless thing, and forthwith treats all and sundry to a
> mortality-flaunting display of horsepower and senseless verve by
> outpacing and then Oh! cutting past the beast, through the lane, a
> hair’s breadth from harm, safely into the … bike lane. Surely the
> stuff of demi-gods on earth, yes? Cripes.
>
>
> At least, at the very, very least, if cornered and stopped, if
> pressed by cops or irate drivers, the cyclist wouldn’t have gazed
> bewildered at the gathered crowd and said… “Bus? I never saw it.”
>
>
>
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Justin Serna
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:03 PM
> To: Chris Alling; Obra
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
>
>
> I would have to agree with Chris in this situation if the cyclist
> was in fact traveling at the speeds you described he had every right
> to hold the lane he was in and the bus should have given him the
> right of way. However I will agree with you that merging in front
> of a bus at that speed and proximity is very dangerous. I have
> found that quite often bus drivers can be the worst offenders when
> it comes to giving way to cyclist. Unfortunately with the increased
> popularity of cycling we will see many different types of riders
> just as we see in those who drive automobiles. I think the key is
> to judge each situation as an individual case and then remember that
> everyone has a point of view, but I guess that would be a bit
> idealistic.
>
>
> Cheers and safe training and riding..........
>
>
> J. Serna
>
> #1250
>
>
>
>
> From: Chris Alling
> To: Obra
> Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:54:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
>
> >From your description it sounds as if the bus should have yielded
> the right of way to the cyclist and he should be lambasted for not
> applying the brakes and yielding. It sounds like the bike was
> traveling legally with the flow af traffic.
>
>
> From: JRaedeke@roguecc.edu
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:07:49 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
>
> Amen !!! Let’s all try to not give motorists any reasons to dislike
> cyclist on the roadways. Let’s make positive progress.
>
> john
>
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Mike Rosenfeld
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:38 AM
> To: OBRA
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
>
>
> I am not one to publicly lambaste another cyclist but I witnessed
> such a huge display stupidity this morning I have to take the time
> to vent.
>
> The incident took place where Capitol Highway merges onto Barbur
> Blvd. I have attached a picture of the area to refresh memories.
>
> There is a bike path for those heading towards downtown to go around
> the overpass and then merge back onto Barbur Blvd safely.
>
> It was about 7:45am, pouring down rain, and very low visibility.
>
> I was driving (yes I know...you can pick on me for driving) towards
> downtown and was passing under the overpass. I see a cyclist with
> minimal lighting and dark cycling gear, The rain jacket was Red,
> bluish helmet. I would have to gauge this cyclist as a racer due to
> the type of bike, smooth spin, and speed at which he was traveling,
> also the gear was indicative of someone who knows how to ride in the
> rain....speed would be maybe 25 to 30 mph. They decide to bypass
> the bike path round-about and go under the over pass.
>
> As I close the distance and pass under the overpass I see a Trimet
> bus coming down the ramp getting ready to merge onto Barbur from
> Capitol.
>
> The cyclist stands up and starts to sprint.
>
> The Bus increases speed.
>
> I slow down in case the cyclist needs to veer into my lane....Every
> muscle in my body tenses and I mutter a curse under my breath
> through clenched jaws as the cyclist cuts across in front of the
> bus. And this is no joke.....there was only 5 feet of clearance
> between the rear wheel of the cyclist and the bus...it was even less
> by the time the cyclist clears the bumper of the bus and is safely
> across the lane.
>
> The brake lights on the bus never even flickered.
>
> I really thought I was going to watch this guy die....not just hurt
> but actually dead. The bus was doing at least mid 30's and would
> have smeared the cyclist for at least 100+ feet before stopping.
>
> This is the sort of thing that gives people legitimate complaints
> against cyclists.
>
> I know the argument that some experienced cyclists have with regards
> to being in control of their environment and know the limitations of
> their handling skills and speeds....but for goodness sake this was
> just down right STUPID!!
>
> I hope the cyclist is in fact a racer, a member of OBRA, and is
> reading this. My message to you is this:
>
> Your actions impact more than just you. If you had been wrong in
> your abilities to clear the buses bumper, I and at least 30+ other
> people would have watch you die. Horribly. Think of how the
> driver of the bus would have felt knowing he or she had taken your
> life. For what?? 30 extra seconds? Not wanting to deal a little
> bit of gravel? Think about this before you do something like this
> again. Your actions.....your decisions....have consequences to
> yourself and others.
>
> I am a cyclist. I have been riding both competitively and for
> leisure on and off for 25 years. I state this to lend credence to
> my assessment of the situation.
>
>
> Mike Rosenfeld
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check
> it out.
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mark J. Ginsberg

2009-04-12

Doug,

If you want to argue law, swing for the cheap seats and argue ORS 814.420(2), the hearing requirement.

I will tell you no hearing have ever been held for any bike lane in the entire state of Oregon. I will also tell you I am lawyer, and despite the lack of hearing, the courts regularly convict people for this violation. Google "state vs. potter" to read all about it.
 Though in the past few years I've not seen as many personally.

Mark

Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC

Attorneys At Law

1216 SE Belmont St.

Portland, OR 97214

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com

--- On Sun, 4/12/09, Sami Fournier wrote:
From: Sami Fournier
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What are you thinking?
To: "Doug Hormann" , obra@list.obra.org
Date: Sunday, April 12, 2009, 6:20 AM

Doug,

Sorry, but according to the ORS 814.420 quoted below, exceptions to the requirement to use the bike lane include:

When a hazard exists
When passing
When turning left

A hazard includes any surface or other impediment in the bike lane, or any vehicle, including a possible right turning car.  I advise all my students to leave the bike lane if they are going straight through at an intersection, in order to avoid the 'right hook' and the law is on my side there, as you can read below.

Your interpretation of what's legal is shared by many misinformed motorists, but it would be easily countered in court, by any good lawyer, and in any case, it's wrong.

Sorry to be blunt, but cyclists especially are obligated to know the law.

814.420
Failure to use bicycle lane or path; exceptions; penalty. (1) Except as provided in subsections (2)
and (3) of this section, a person commits the offense of failure to use a
bicycle lane or path if the person operates a bicycle on any portion of a
roadway that is not a bicycle lane or bicycle path when a bicycle lane or
bicycle path is adjacent to or near the roadway.

      (2) A person is not required to comply
with this section unless the state or local authority with jurisdiction over
the roadway finds, after public hearing, that the bicycle lane or bicycle path
is suitable for safe bicycle use at reasonable rates of speed.

      (3) A person is not in violation of the
offense under this section if the person is able to safely move out of the
bicycle lane or path for the purpose of:

      (a) Overtaking and passing another
bicycle, a vehicle or a pedestrian that is in the bicycle lane or path and
passage cannot safely be made in the lane or path.

      (b) Preparing to execute a left turn at an
intersection or into a private road or driveway.

      (c) Avoiding debris or other hazardous
conditions.

      (d) Preparing to execute a right turn
where a right turn is authorized.

      (e) Continuing straight at an intersection
where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor
vehicle must turn right.

      (4) The offense described in this section,
failure to use a bicycle lane or path, is a Class D traffic violation. [1983
c.338 §700; 1985 c.16 §338; 2005 c.316 §3]

 

--- On Sat, 4/11/09, Doug Hormann wrote:

From: Doug Hormann
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
To: "'Obra'"
Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 4:10 PM


You were fine until you wrote “legally elected not to
follow the bike lane”.  Unless the bike lane was unsafe to a
reasonable person (full of trash, glass, under construction, under water) there
is no choice to be made here.  The bike lane is the legal path and you may
not “legally” deviate from it.  Convenience; not having to
slow down; etc. are not legal reasons to leave the path/lane.  The path in
that spot is there to prevent exactly this sort of situation.   The
driver of the bus has the obligation to exibit due care when operating the bus,
just as cyclists have the same obligation; so if the driver of the bus had seen
the bicycle and sped up to “show him who’s boss” then there
might be a culpable mental state of the part of the driver.   Having
said all that, I’ve been known to take the road vs. the bike lane or path
just because I want to, but that doesn’t mean that I can cry foul if I
get injured or squashed.

 

Doug Hormann

 

From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Catlin,
Wil

Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:31 PM

To: Justin Serna; Chris Alling; Obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

 

 

Yup, it’s hard enough for folks to follow the details of even
this one specific situation.

 

There was no lane holding by the cyclist: that’s the problem.
The ‘on ramp’ there is its own lane in parallel with the two on
Barbur that it joins. Form that point down to the Front St. pullout (or so)
there are three lanes on Barbur.

 

So, the cyclist legally elected not to follow the bike lane and
remained in the right lane. Fine. BUT, once he passed Capitol HWY he found
himself no longer in the right lane but in the center lane. Bus is in
the right lane, heading on down the road toward its next stop like all buses do
when they aren’t out hunting for cyclists. Fine again, in that at least
the bus is not demonstrably hunting. However, the cyclist then decides he just
can’t wait for the bus to pass, in fact wants to beat that damn bus,
demoralize the indifferent, godless thing, and forthwith treats all and sundry
to a mortality-flaunting display of horsepower and senseless verve by outpacing
and then Oh! cutting past the beast, through the lane, a hair’s breadth
from harm, safely into the … bike lane. Surely the stuff of demi-gods on
earth, yes? Cripes.

 

At least, at the very, very least, if cornered and stopped, if
pressed by cops or irate drivers, the cyclist wouldn’t have gazed
bewildered at the gathered crowd and said… “Bus? I never saw
it.”

 

 

 

From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Justin
Serna

Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:03 PM

To: Chris Alling; Obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

 

I
would have to agree with Chris in this situation if the cyclist was in fact
traveling at the speeds you described he had every right to hold the lane he
was in and the bus should have given him the right of way.  However I
will agree with you that merging in front of a bus at that speed and proximity
is very dangerous.  I have found that quite often bus drivers can be the
worst offenders when it comes to giving way to cyclist.  Unfortunately
with the increased popularity of cycling we will see many different types of riders
just as we see in those who drive automobiles.  I think the key is to
judge each situation as an individual case and then remember that everyone
has a point of view, but I guess that would be a bit idealistic.

 

Cheers
and safe training and riding..........

 

 J. Serna

#1250

 

 

 

From: Chris Alling

To: Obra

Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:54:05 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

>From your description it sounds as if the bus should have yielded the right
of way to the cyclist and he should be lambasted for not applying the
brakes and yielding. It sounds like the bike was traveling legally
with the flow af traffic.

 

From: JRaedeke@roguecc.edu

To: obra@list.obra.org

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:07:49 -0700

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

Amen !!!  Let’s all try to not give motorists
any reasons to dislike cyclist on the roadways.  Let’s make positive
progress.

john

 

From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Rosenfeld

Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:38 AM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

 

I am not one to publicly
lambaste another cyclist but I witnessed such a huge display stupidity this
morning I have to take the time to vent. 

The incident took place where Capitol Highway merges onto Barbur Blvd.  I
have attached a picture of the area to refresh memories.

There is a bike path for those heading towards downtown to go around the
overpass and then merge back onto Barbur Blvd safely.

It was about 7:45am, pouring down rain, and very low visibility.

I was driving (yes I know...you can pick on me for driving) towards downtown
and was passing under the overpass.  I see a cyclist with minimal lighting
and dark cycling gear, The rain jacket was Red, bluish helmet.  I would
have to gauge this cyclist as a racer due to the type of bike, smooth spin, and
speed at which he was traveling, also the gear was indicative of someone who
knows how to ride in the rain....speed would be maybe 25 to 30 mph.  They
decide to bypass the bike path round-about and go under the over pass. 

As I close the distance and pass under the overpass I see a Trimet bus coming
down the ramp getting ready to merge onto Barbur from Capitol.

The cyclist stands up and starts to sprint.

The Bus increases speed.

I slow down in case the cyclist needs to veer into my lane....Every muscle in
my body tenses and I mutter a curse under my breath through clenched jaws as
the cyclist cuts across in front of the bus.  And this is no
joke.....there was only 5 feet of clearance between the rear wheel of the
cyclist and the bus...it was even less by the time the cyclist clears the
bumper of the bus and is safely across the lane. 

The brake lights on the bus never even flickered.

I really thought I was going to watch this guy die....not just hurt but
actually dead.  The bus was doing at least mid 30's and would have smeared
the cyclist for at least 100+ feet before stopping.

This is the sort of thing that gives people legitimate complaints against
cyclists.

I know the argument that some experienced cyclists have with regards to being
in control of their environment and know the limitations of their handling
skills and speeds....but for goodness sake this was just down right STUPID!!

I hope the cyclist is in fact a racer, a member of OBRA, and is reading this.
My message to you is this:

Your actions impact more than just you.  If you had been wrong in your
abilities to clear the buses bumper, I and at least 30+ other people would have
watch you die.  Horribly.   Think of how the
driver of the bus would have felt knowing he or she had taken your life. 
For what??  30 extra seconds?  Not wanting to deal a little bit of
gravel? Think about this before you do something like this again.  Your
actions.....your decisions....have consequences to yourself and others.

I am a cyclist.  I have been riding both competitively and for leisure on
and off for 25 years.  I state this to lend credence to my assessment of
the situation.

Mike Rosenfeld

 

Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with
you. Check it out.

 

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Sami Fournier

2009-04-12

Doug,

Sorry, but according to the ORS 814.420 quoted below, exceptions to the requirement to use the bike lane include:

When a hazard exists
When passing
When turning left

A hazard includes any surface or other impediment in the bike lane, or any vehicle, including a possible right turning car.  I advise all my students to leave the bike lane if they are going straight through at an intersection, in order to avoid the 'right hook' and the law is on my side there, as you can read below.

Your interpretation of what's legal is shared by many misinformed motorists, but it would be easily countered in court, by any good lawyer, and in any case, it's wrong.

Sorry to be blunt, but cyclists especially are obligated to know the law.

814.420
Failure to use bicycle lane or path; exceptions; penalty. (1) Except as provided in subsections (2)
and (3) of this section, a person commits the offense of failure to use a
bicycle lane or path if the person operates a bicycle on any portion of a
roadway that is not a bicycle lane or bicycle path when a bicycle lane or
bicycle path is adjacent to or near the roadway.

      (2) A person is not required to comply
with this section unless the state or local authority with jurisdiction over
the roadway finds, after public hearing, that the bicycle lane or bicycle path
is suitable for safe bicycle use at reasonable rates of speed.

      (3) A person is not in violation of the
offense under this section if the person is able to safely move out of the
bicycle lane or path for the purpose of:

      (a) Overtaking and passing another
bicycle, a vehicle or a pedestrian that is in the bicycle lane or path and
passage cannot safely be made in the lane or path.

      (b) Preparing to execute a left turn at an
intersection or into a private road or driveway.

      (c) Avoiding debris or other hazardous
conditions.

      (d) Preparing to execute a right turn
where a right turn is authorized.

      (e) Continuing straight at an intersection
where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor
vehicle must turn right.

      (4) The offense described in this section,
failure to use a bicycle lane or path, is a Class D traffic violation. [1983
c.338 §700; 1985 c.16 §338; 2005 c.316 §3]

 

--- On Sat, 4/11/09, Doug Hormann wrote:

From: Doug Hormann
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.
To: "'Obra'"
Date: Saturday, April 11, 2009, 4:10 PM


You were fine until you wrote “legally elected not to
follow the bike lane”.  Unless the bike lane was unsafe to a
reasonable person (full of trash, glass, under construction, under water) there
is no choice to be made here.  The bike lane is the legal path and you may
not “legally” deviate from it.  Convenience; not having to
slow down; etc. are not legal reasons to leave the path/lane.  The path in
that spot is there to prevent exactly this sort of situation.   The
driver of the bus has the obligation to exibit due care when operating the bus,
just as cyclists have the same obligation; so if the driver of the bus had seen
the bicycle and sped up to “show him who’s boss” then there
might be a culpable mental state of the part of the driver.   Having
said all that, I’ve been known to take the road vs. the bike lane or path
just because I want to, but that doesn’t mean that I can cry foul if I
get injured or squashed.

 

Doug Hormann

 

From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Catlin,
Wil

Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:31 PM

To: Justin Serna; Chris Alling; Obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

 

 

Yup, it’s hard enough for folks to follow the details of even
this one specific situation.

 

There was no lane holding by the cyclist: that’s the problem.
The ‘on ramp’ there is its own lane in parallel with the two on
Barbur that it joins. Form that point down to the Front St. pullout (or so)
there are three lanes on Barbur.

 

So, the cyclist legally elected not to follow the bike lane and
remained in the right lane. Fine. BUT, once he passed Capitol HWY he found
himself no longer in the right lane but in the center lane. Bus is in
the right lane, heading on down the road toward its next stop like all buses do
when they aren’t out hunting for cyclists. Fine again, in that at least
the bus is not demonstrably hunting. However, the cyclist then decides he just
can’t wait for the bus to pass, in fact wants to beat that damn bus,
demoralize the indifferent, godless thing, and forthwith treats all and sundry
to a mortality-flaunting display of horsepower and senseless verve by outpacing
and then Oh! cutting past the beast, through the lane, a hair’s breadth
from harm, safely into the … bike lane. Surely the stuff of demi-gods on
earth, yes? Cripes.

 

At least, at the very, very least, if cornered and stopped, if
pressed by cops or irate drivers, the cyclist wouldn’t have gazed
bewildered at the gathered crowd and said… “Bus? I never saw
it.”

 

 

 

From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Justin
Serna

Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 12:03 PM

To: Chris Alling; Obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

 

I
would have to agree with Chris in this situation if the cyclist was in fact
traveling at the speeds you described he had every right to hold the lane he
was in and the bus should have given him the right of way.  However I
will agree with you that merging in front of a bus at that speed and proximity
is very dangerous.  I have found that quite often bus drivers can be the
worst offenders when it comes to giving way to cyclist.  Unfortunately
with the increased popularity of cycling we will see many different types of riders
just as we see in those who drive automobiles.  I think the key is to
judge each situation as an individual case and then remember that everyone
has a point of view, but I guess that would be a bit idealistic.

 

Cheers
and safe training and riding..........

 

 J. Serna

#1250

 

 

 

From: Chris Alling

To: Obra

Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 10:54:05 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

>From your description it sounds as if the bus should have yielded the right
of way to the cyclist and he should be lambasted for not applying the
brakes and yielding. It sounds like the bike was traveling legally
with the flow af traffic.

 

From: JRaedeke@roguecc.edu

To: obra@list.obra.org

Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:07:49 -0700

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

Amen !!!  Let’s all try to not give motorists
any reasons to dislike cyclist on the roadways.  Let’s make positive
progress.

john

 

From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Rosenfeld

Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:38 AM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] What was he thinking.

 

I am not one to publicly
lambaste another cyclist but I witnessed such a huge display stupidity this
morning I have to take the time to vent. 

The incident took place where Capitol Highway merges onto Barbur Blvd.  I
have attached a picture of the area to refresh memories.

There is a bike path for those heading towards downtown to go around the
overpass and then merge back onto Barbur Blvd safely.

It was about 7:45am, pouring down rain, and very low visibility.

I was driving (yes I know...you can pick on me for driving) towards downtown
and was passing under the overpass.  I see a cyclist with minimal lighting
and dark cycling gear, The rain jacket was Red, bluish helmet.  I would
have to gauge this cyclist as a racer due to the type of bike, smooth spin, and
speed at which he was traveling, also the gear was indicative of someone who
knows how to ride in the rain....speed would be maybe 25 to 30 mph.  They
decide to bypass the bike path round-about and go under the over pass. 

As I close the distance and pass under the overpass I see a Trimet bus coming
down the ramp getting ready to merge onto Barbur from Capitol.

The cyclist stands up and starts to sprint.

The Bus increases speed.

I slow down in case the cyclist needs to veer into my lane....Every muscle in
my body tenses and I mutter a curse under my breath through clenched jaws as
the cyclist cuts across in front of the bus.  And this is no
joke.....there was only 5 feet of clearance between the rear wheel of the
cyclist and the bus...it was even less by the time the cyclist clears the
bumper of the bus and is safely across the lane. 

The brake lights on the bus never even flickered.

I really thought I was going to watch this guy die....not just hurt but
actually dead.  The bus was doing at least mid 30's and would have smeared
the cyclist for at least 100+ feet before stopping.

This is the sort of thing that gives people legitimate complaints against
cyclists.

I know the argument that some experienced cyclists have with regards to being
in control of their environment and know the limitations of their handling
skills and speeds....but for goodness sake this was just down right STUPID!!

I hope the cyclist is in fact a racer, a member of OBRA, and is reading this.
My message to you is this:

Your actions impact more than just you.  If you had been wrong in your
abilities to clear the buses bumper, I and at least 30+ other people would have
watch you die.  Horribly.   Think of how the
driver of the bus would have felt knowing he or she had taken your life. 
For what??  30 extra seconds?  Not wanting to deal a little bit of
gravel? Think about this before you do something like this again.  Your
actions.....your decisions....have consequences to yourself and others.

I am a cyclist.  I have been riding both competitively and for leisure on
and off for 25 years.  I state this to lend credence to my assessment of
the situation.

Mike Rosenfeld

 

Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with
you. Check it out.

 

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org