Duncan Calver

Just thought I'd offer this perspective, coming from the perspective
of Psychology...

Tyler Hamilton's case is a classic example of what happens when people
try to play Doctor with their own mental health care. Furthermore,
this is an example of the dangers of unregulated "homeopathic"
products, which generally offer little or no scientifically proven
help for individuals with serious problems like clinical depression.

Every year, countless people are hurt or misled by such products.
They are created by companies with little scientific background, and
generally have no clinical trials to prove efficacy or safety in the
general population.

To me, it is surprising that Tyler Hamilton, who actually seems to be
a seasoned user of sophisticated pharmaceuticals, would use something
like this for depression considering the fact it contained a known
banned substance; furthermore, a banned substance which has been shown
to have little to no performance enhancing qualities, or help with
depression. What he should have done is work with his Psychiatrist to
find an anti-depressant more suitable for his needs.

Depression is a serious mental illness that should be cared for only
by qualified Medical Doctors, particularly those trained in
Psychiatry. Use of over-the counter herbal extracts and hormones is
dangerous and ill-advised. Just because something is "natural",
doesn't mean it is safe or effective. There is a reason the FDA puts
psychiatric drugs through long periods of clinical testing before
allowing them for public consumption under qualified prescription. It
is for the safety and benefit of those taking the medications, and to
safeguard the medical profession from being associated with quacks and
charlatans.

This is a sad end to a career. Part of me wonders if he did this on
purpose. He certainly seemed indifferent to the risk he was taking,
especially considering the product would have offered him little, if
any help.

*Duncan

Jay Brown

There is no such thing as fair or clean. never has been, never will be. I think allot of us sit here and read about this drug or that drug and think..... there is no drug in the world that is going to make me competitive against THAT GUY(insert name here).. regardless of the drug, genetics are the real kicker for 99% of us including professional cyclists.

Speed limits(not reckless driving) are set to generate revenue, I thought everyone knew that.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of david baker
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:45 PM
To: eric aldinger; obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

So what you picture is me and anyone else who wants to succeed in cycling going to the doctor all the time to get blood transfusions, epo shots, steroids, etc. Spending thousands of dollars a year, maybe tens of thousands if you want to be real good. Risking our health to race. I don't want to do that, but I do want to be competitive.

I can be competitive now, but you want to take away that ability from me, that is not right.

You make a good point about Ibuprofen, it should not be used repeatedly, I found that out the hard way.

I think we have to draw a line somewhere. We can argue about where to draw the line, maybe ibuprofen, amino acids, etc should be banned as well, I do not have a real strong opinion there.

But I can't understand the benefit of removing the lines altogether.

We draw lines in society all of the time and they always seem arbitrary when you look right at the line, but imagine if we got rid of those lines, no speed limits, no personal crimes, no drug laws, murder is ok, robbery and rape are cool. What's the difference between alcohol and pot, why is one legal? I think we should legalize pot before alcohol, but I am not in favor of removing the lines and having all drugs legal.

I have gone through addiction in my life and the last thing I need is drugs forced upon me in cycling. If these(cycling) drugs were legal I would have used them and probably destroyed my abilities one way or another, I am so glad cycling tries to be clean. If we legalized drugs in cycling I would leave. I think a lot of other people would too and you would be left with a bunch of broke, mentally ill, physically damaged, sorry people trying to prove nothing.

----- Original Message -----

From: eric aldinger

To: obra

Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 2:42 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

Thanks for your polite reply Brady.

How is it not striving to give your best when you take medical risks to enhance performance using organic techniques like blood transfusions or EPO. Sanctioning bodies already allow the use of anti-inflammatory agents to allow athletes to continue perform when injured or over training. Prolonged use of NSAIDs promotes GI damage.(1) The sanctioning bodies allow the use of branch chain amino acid supplements, like tyrosine, to increase endurance during training, even though excessive protein consumption can theoretically lead to calcium loss, inadequate carbohydrate intake, and (theoretically) kidney damage.(2) Tyler was busted once for homologous blood transfusions. This transfusion is banned because it carries a risk of infection and immuno-suppression.(3) Thise are not are not huge hair raising risks for a healthy athlete, when compared with the risk of injury inherant in bicycle racing. These are more a concern for a dialiosis patient. A blood transfusion is not cheating. It is a medically sound way to improve recovery times. Autologous blood transfusions are banned and they carry none of the significant risks of homologous blood transfusions.(4) That just seems like a knee jerk reaction to a new training method.

I am not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand why the cycling community is so opposed to allowing new medical procedures to be used to enhance performance in the professional ranks. Right now, all these rules do is force athletes to have their EPO administered by untrained handlers who are not bound by the same professional ethical standards as a doctor. (5) This is what leads to dosage above the proscribed amounts for these drugs, and ultimately leads to stoke or death. Make it legal and athletes have a better chance of using the tools they are already using in a more constrained manner.

I like the idea of the unmodified and modified segregation in racing. But I don't see how you get around someone who is not fast enough sans dangerous medical procedures doping, transfusing, or sleeping in an oxygen tent in the unmodified category.

Citations
1) http://www.lef.org/protocols/appendix/otc_toxicity_01.htm
2) http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/414351
if you do not have a Medscape account refer to http://www1.rism.ac.th/2005/ProjectEvents/BTN/Handouts/Morning/LookGood_Pyong/ProteinRatio.pdf for the same content
3) http://jtcs.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/104/4/1092
4) http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/autologous-blood-donation
5) http://www.velonews.com/article/13360

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Brady Brady wrote:

“If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?”

It is an issue because—whether they like it or not—there are kids who idolize these consenting adults.

It is an issue because for every uber-doper, there is someone in the peloton who has been suffering for years as a domestique, paying their dues and playing it straight, just to have their one career SHOT at cracking a top-20 finish.

It is an issue because it attempts to discredit the notion that giving one’s best is its own reward, and that usually, no matter how hard one tries, there is someone better… and one has to deal with that.

On another note, It doesn’t look like Tyler’s current problem had anything to do with all of this. Hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of ewascent@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:40 AM
To: Justin Serna; Chris Streight; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their skills.

On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:
>
>
> This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>
>
>
> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>
>
>
> Just my 2 cents..............
>
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
iamerichearmeroar

________________________________

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

david baker

So what you picture is me and anyone else who wants to succeed in cycling going to the doctor all the time to get blood transfusions, epo shots, steroids, etc. Spending thousands of dollars a year, maybe tens of thousands if you want to be real good. Risking our health to race. I don't want to do that, but I do want to be competitive.
I can be competitive now, but you want to take away that ability from me, that is not right.
You make a good point about Ibuprofen, it should not be used repeatedly, I found that out the hard way.
I think we have to draw a line somewhere. We can argue about where to draw the line, maybe ibuprofen, amino acids, etc should be banned as well, I do not have a real strong opinion there.
But I can't understand the benefit of removing the lines altogether.
We draw lines in society all of the time and they always seem arbitrary when you look right at the line, but imagine if we got rid of those lines, no speed limits, no personal crimes, no drug laws, murder is ok, robbery and rape are cool. What's the difference between alcohol and pot, why is one legal? I think we should legalize pot before alcohol, but I am not in favor of removing the lines and having all drugs legal.
I have gone through addiction in my life and the last thing I need is drugs forced upon me in cycling. If these(cycling) drugs were legal I would have used them and probably destroyed my abilities one way or another, I am so glad cycling tries to be clean. If we legalized drugs in cycling I would leave. I think a lot of other people would too and you would be left with a bunch of broke, mentally ill, physically damaged, sorry people trying to prove nothing.
----- Original Message -----
From: eric aldinger
To: obra
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

Thanks for your polite reply Brady.

How is it not striving to give your best when you take medical risks to enhance performance using organic techniques like blood transfusions or EPO. Sanctioning bodies already allow the use of anti-inflammatory agents to allow athletes to continue perform when injured or over training. Prolonged use of NSAIDs promotes GI damage.(1) The sanctioning bodies allow the use of branch chain amino acid supplements, like tyrosine, to increase endurance during training, even though excessive protein consumption can theoretically lead to calcium loss, inadequate carbohydrate intake, and (theoretically) kidney damage.(2) Tyler was busted once for homologous blood transfusions. This transfusion is banned because it carries a risk of infection and immuno-suppression.(3) Thise are not are not huge hair raising risks for a healthy athlete, when compared with the risk of injury inherant in bicycle racing. These are more a concern for a dialiosis patient. A blood transfusion is not cheating. It is a medically sound way to improve recovery times. Autologous blood transfusions are banned and they carry none of the significant risks of homologous blood transfusions.(4) That just seems like a knee jerk reaction to a new training method.

I am not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand why the cycling community is so opposed to allowing new medical procedures to be used to enhance performance in the professional ranks. Right now, all these rules do is force athletes to have their EPO administered by untrained handlers who are not bound by the same professional ethical standards as a doctor. (5) This is what leads to dosage above the proscribed amounts for these drugs, and ultimately leads to stoke or death. Make it legal and athletes have a better chance of using the tools they are already using in a more constrained manner.

I like the idea of the unmodified and modified segregation in racing. But I don't see how you get around someone who is not fast enough sans dangerous medical procedures doping, transfusing, or sleeping in an oxygen tent in the unmodified category.

Citations
1) http://www.lef.org/protocols/appendix/otc_toxicity_01.htm
2) http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/414351
if you do not have a Medscape account refer to http://www1.rism.ac.th/2005/ProjectEvents/BTN/Handouts/Morning/LookGood_Pyong/ProteinRatio.pdf for the same content
3) http://jtcs.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/104/4/1092
4) http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/autologous-blood-donation
5) http://www.velonews.com/article/13360

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Brady Brady wrote:

“If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?”

It is an issue because—whether they like it or not—there are kids who idolize these consenting adults.

It is an issue because for every uber-doper, there is someone in the peloton who has been suffering for years as a domestique, paying their dues and playing it straight, just to have their one career SHOT at cracking a top-20 finish.

It is an issue because it attempts to discredit the notion that giving one’s best is its own reward, and that usually, no matter how hard one tries, there is someone better… and one has to deal with that.

On another note, It doesn’t look like Tyler’s current problem had anything to do with all of this. Hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of ewascent@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:40 AM
To: Justin Serna; Chris Streight; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their skills.

On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:
>
>
> This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>
>
>
> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>
>
>
> Just my 2 cents..............
>
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
iamerichearmeroar

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Under WADA rules I don't believe it would be possible to get an Therapeutic
Use Exemption for an anabolic, even for a weak one like DHEA.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of craig austin
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 13:48 PM
To: Brady Brady
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Chris Streight
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

It's also an issue because it's against the rules. To quote Walter Sobchack,
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a
sh!t about the rules?"

They're pretty simple in racing. Don't cut the course. Don't get on a train
and ride part of a stage. Don't cross the tracks when the lights are
flashing. And don't take drugs that are on the banned list.

And I would've thought it was obvious, but if you feel you must take drugs
that are on the banned list, but aren't doing it as a performance
enhancement, then get a medical release and own up to it BEFORE you're
caught and your team is embroiled in yet another humiliating public
spectacle. You think it was hard to get corporate sponsorship for cycling
YESTERDAY? Try today. People will lose their jobs, careers, and livelihoods
because of Tyler's inability to think of anyone but himself.

Craig

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Brady Brady wrote:

"If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally
improve their abilities why is that an issue?"

It is an issue because-whether they like it or not-there are kids who
idolize these consenting adults.

It is an issue because for every uber-doper, there is someone in the peloton
who has been suffering for years as a domestique, paying their dues and
playing it straight, just to have their one career SHOT at cracking a top-20
finish.

It is an issue because it attempts to discredit the notion that giving one's
best is its own reward, and that usually, no matter how hard one tries,
there is someone better. and one has to deal with that.

On another note, It doesn't look like Tyler's current problem had anything
to do with all of this. Hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of ewascent@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:40 AM
To: Justin Serna; Chris Streight; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally
improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible
minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical
procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and
applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always
assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their
training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how powerful
a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their
skills.

On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:
>
>
> This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story I
was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed to
the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance
enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my
disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and
present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr.
Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult
issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get
the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>
>
>
> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional
cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out
by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>
>
>
> Just my 2 cents..............
>
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Joe King

Is there anywhere else this discussion could be taken? I really don't
need my email filling up with Tyler Hamilton emails all weekend.

Thanks
Joe

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:42 PM, eric aldinger wrote:
> Thanks for your polite reply Brady.
>
> How is it not striving to give your best when you take medical risks to
> enhance performance using organic techniques like blood transfusions or EPO.
> Sanctioning bodies already allow the use of anti-inflammatory agents to
> allow athletes to continue perform when injured or over training. Prolonged
> use of NSAIDs promotes GI damage.(1) The sanctioning bodies allow the use of
> branch chain amino acid supplements, like tyrosine, to increase endurance
> during training, even though excessive protein consumption can theoretically
> lead to calcium loss, inadequate carbohydrate intake, and (theoretically)
> kidney damage.(2) Tyler was busted once for homologous blood transfusions.
> This transfusion is banned because it carries a risk of infection and
> immuno-suppression.(3)  Thise are not are not huge hair raising risks for a
> healthy athlete, when compared with the risk of injury inherant in bicycle
> racing. These are more a concern for a dialiosis patient. A blood
> transfusion is not cheating. It is a medically sound way to improve recovery
> times. Autologous blood transfusions are banned and they carry none of the
> significant risks of homologous blood transfusions.(4) That just seems like
> a knee jerk reaction to a new training method.
>
> I am not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand why the cycling
> community is so opposed to allowing new medical procedures to be used to
> enhance performance in the professional ranks. Right now, all these rules do
> is force athletes to have their EPO administered by untrained handlers who
> are not bound by the same professional ethical standards as a doctor. (5)
> This is what leads to dosage above the proscribed amounts for these drugs,
> and ultimately leads to stoke or death. Make it legal and athletes have a
> better chance of using the tools they are already using in a more
> constrained manner.
>
> I like the idea of the unmodified and modified segregation in racing. But I
> don't see how you get around someone who is not fast enough sans dangerous
> medical procedures doping, transfusing, or sleeping in an oxygen tent in the
> unmodified category.
>
> Citations
> 1) http://www.lef.org/protocols/appendix/otc_toxicity_01.htm
> 2) http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/414351
> if you do not have a Medscape account refer to
> http://www1.rism.ac.th/2005/ProjectEvents/BTN/Handouts/Morning/LookGood_Pyong/ProteinRatio.pdf
> for the same content
> 3) http://jtcs.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/104/4/1092
> 4) http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/autologous-blood-donation
> 5) http://www.velonews.com/article/13360
>
> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Brady Brady wrote:
>>
>> “If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to
>> abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?”
>>
>>
>>
>> It is an issue because—whether they like it or not—there are kids who
>> idolize these consenting adults.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is an issue because for every uber-doper, there is someone in the
>> peloton who has been suffering for years as a domestique, paying their dues
>> and playing it straight, just to have their one career SHOT at cracking a
>> top-20 finish.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is an issue because it attempts to discredit the notion that giving
>> one’s best is its own reward, and that usually, no matter how hard one
>> tries, there is someone better… and one has to deal with that.
>>
>>
>>
>> On another note, It doesn’t look like Tyler’s current problem had anything
>> to do with all of this. Hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of ewascent@gmail.com
>> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:40 AM
>> To: Justin Serna; Chris Streight; obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>>
>>
>>
>> If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to
>> abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly
>> visible minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned
>> medical procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random
>> testing and applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me.
>> I always assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal"
>> in their training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how
>> powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing
>> their skills.
>>
>> On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > This story is sad in so many ways!!!  When I initially viewed this story
>> > I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed
>> > to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance
>> > enhancing DRUGS.  After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my
>> > disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and
>> > present made me realize the he is just a human being.  I do not condone Mr.
>> > Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult
>> > issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist.  I hope he will get
>> > the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional
>> > cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out
>> > by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Just my 2 cents..............
>> >
>> >
>> > Justin J. Serna
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
>> > To: obra@list.obra.org
>> > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
>> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>> >
>> > Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>> >
>> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
> --
> iamerichearmeroar
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

eric aldinger

Thanks for your polite reply Brady.

How is it not striving to give your best when you take medical risks to
enhance performance using organic techniques like blood transfusions or EPO.
Sanctioning bodies already allow the use of anti-inflammatory agents to
allow athletes to continue perform when injured or over training. Prolonged
use of NSAIDs promotes GI damage.(1) The sanctioning bodies allow the use of
branch chain amino acid supplements, like tyrosine, to increase endurance
during training, even though excessive protein consumption can theoretically
lead to calcium loss, inadequate carbohydrate intake, and (theoretically)
kidney damage.(2) Tyler was busted once for homologous blood transfusions.
This transfusion is banned because it carries a risk of infection and
immuno-suppression.(3) Thise are not are not huge hair raising risks for a
healthy athlete, when compared with the risk of injury inherant in bicycle
racing. These are more a concern for a dialiosis patient. A blood
transfusion is not cheating. It is a medically sound way to improve recovery
times. Autologous blood transfusions are banned and they carry none of the
significant risks of homologous blood transfusions.(4) That just seems like
a knee jerk reaction to a new training method.

I am not trying to pick a fight. I just don't understand why the cycling
community is so opposed to allowing new medical procedures to be used to
enhance performance in the professional ranks. Right now, all these rules do
is force athletes to have their EPO administered by untrained handlers who
are not bound by the same professional ethical standards as a doctor. (5)
This is what leads to dosage above the proscribed amounts for these drugs,
and ultimately leads to stoke or death. Make it legal and athletes have a
better chance of using the tools they are already using in a more
constrained manner.

I like the idea of the unmodified and modified segregation in racing. But I
don't see how you get around someone who is not fast enough sans dangerous
medical procedures doping, transfusing, or sleeping in an oxygen tent in the
unmodified category.

Citations
1) http://www.lef.org/protocols/appendix/otc_toxicity_01.htm
2) http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/414351
if you do not have a Medscape account refer to
http://www1.rism.ac.th/2005/ProjectEvents/BTN/Handouts/Morning/LookGood_Pyong/ProteinRatio.pdffor
the same content
3) http://jtcs.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/104/4/1092
4) http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/autologous-blood-donation
5) http://www.velonews.com/article/13360

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Brady Brady wrote:

> “If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to
> abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?”
>
>
>
> It is an issue because—whether they like it or not—there are kids who
> idolize these consenting adults.
>
>
>
> It is an issue because for every uber-doper, there is someone in the
> peloton who has been suffering for years as a domestique, paying their dues
> and playing it straight, just to have their one career SHOT at cracking a
> top-20 finish.
>
>
>
> It is an issue because it attempts to discredit the notion that giving
> one’s best is its own reward, and that usually, no matter how hard one
> tries, there is someone better… and one has to deal with that.
>
>
>
> On another note, It doesn’t look like Tyler’s current problem had anything
> to do with all of this. Hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs.
>
>
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *ewascent@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2009 11:40 AM
> *To:* Justin Serna; Chris Streight; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
>
>
> If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally
> improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible
> minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical
> procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and
> applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always
> assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their
> training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how powerful
> a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their
> skills.
>
> On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:
> >
> >
> > This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story
> I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed
> to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance
> enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my
> disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and
> present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr.
> Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult
> issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get
> the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional
> cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out
> by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just my 2 cents..............
> >
> >
> > Justin J. Serna
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
> >
> > Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--
iamerichearmeroar

Sarah Tisdale

> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Brady Brady wrote:
>> “If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to
>> abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?”
>>
>> It is an issue because—whether they like it or not—there are kids who
>> idolize these consenting adults.
>>
>> It is an issue because for every uber-doper, there is someone in the
>> peloton who has been suffering for years as a domestique, paying their dues
>> and playing it straight, just to have their one career SHOT at cracking a
>> top-20 finish.

I have wondered if we could segment bike racing in a similar way as
drag-racing or auto-racing. They create classes of competition with
strict rules about about what fuels, engines, and car types are
allowed (eg: formula-one, stock-car, nascar, super-modified,
alcohol-fueled, etc). Maybe some people would be interested in an
"anything goes" class of bike racing, while others would choose the
"drug-free" class of bike racing. Of course, some would try to cheat
and compete in a drug-free class while taking drugs. But if they were
caught, they could simply be bumped up to the "anything goes" class
instead of being completely kicked out of the sport.

Of course, the downsides are numerous. First and foremost, I suspect
the "anything goes" category would be the one that gets the most press
and attention, and you'd have kids idolizing the anything-goes racers.
Second, there might not be enough races/racers/sponsors to support
all the different classes.

>> On another note, It doesn’t look like Tyler’s current problem had anything
>> to do with all of this. Hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs.

Agreed.

craig austin

It's also an issue because it's against the rules. To quote Walter Sobchack,
"Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a
sh!t about the rules?"

They're pretty simple in racing. Don't cut the course. Don't get on a train
and ride part of a stage. Don't cross the tracks when the lights are
flashing. And don't take drugs that are on the banned list.

And I would've thought it was obvious, but if you feel you must take drugs
that are on the banned list, but aren't doing it as a performance
enhancement, then get a medical release and own up to it BEFORE you're
caught and your team is embroiled in yet another humiliating public
spectacle. You think it was hard to get corporate sponsorship for cycling
YESTERDAY? Try today. People will lose their jobs, careers, and livelihoods
because of Tyler's inability to think of anyone but himself.

Craig

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Brady Brady wrote:

> “If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to
> abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?”
>
>
>
> It is an issue because—whether they like it or not—there are kids who
> idolize these consenting adults.
>
>
>
> It is an issue because for every uber-doper, there is someone in the
> peloton who has been suffering for years as a domestique, paying their dues
> and playing it straight, just to have their one career SHOT at cracking a
> top-20 finish.
>
>
>
> It is an issue because it attempts to discredit the notion that giving
> one’s best is its own reward, and that usually, no matter how hard one
> tries, there is someone better… and one has to deal with that.
>
>
>
> On another note, It doesn’t look like Tyler’s current problem had anything
> to do with all of this. Hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs.
>
>
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *ewascent@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2009 11:40 AM
> *To:* Justin Serna; Chris Streight; obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
>
>
> If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally
> improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible
> minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical
> procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and
> applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always
> assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their
> training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how powerful
> a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their
> skills.
>
> On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:
> >
> >
> > This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story
> I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed
> to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance
> enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my
> disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and
> present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr.
> Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult
> issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get
> the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional
> cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out
> by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just my 2 cents..............
> >
> >
> > Justin J. Serna
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
> >
> > Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Justin Serna

Aside from your Wikipedia definition of the trickle down theory, at least you understand what a comparison is............
 
Justin J. Serna

206.491.3730

________________________________
From: "ewascent@gmail.com"
To: Justin Serna ; ewascent@gmail.com; Chris Streight ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 12:43:56 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

The trickle down theory is a discredited economic model, and does not apply to the accretion of normative tolerance for previously deviant behaviors or views. I guess I can look past that to see what you are try to communicate.

On Apr 17, 2009 12:18pm, Justin Serna wrote:
>
>
> Natural selection and survival of the fittest work great in he wild.  If we did not create rules to keep drugs out of sports we would have a lot of dead or seriously injured young athletes who would do whatever it takes to make it to the big leagues.  Even with the anti-doping rules that are in place we constantly here of high scool aged athletes in trouble due to roid rage. 
>
>  
>
>  
>
> IMO your statement . "If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?"is narrow minded and irresponsible.  It is an issue because of the trickle down theory.  I hope you do not need that theory to be explained to you.  I understand that the athletes in questiuon are adults but you must look at the bigger picture.
>
>  
>
> Best Regards, 
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
> 206.491.3730
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "ewascent@gmail.com" ewascent@gmail.com>
> To: Justin Serna justinsf2001@yahoo.com>; Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>; obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, Aprto il 17, 2009 11:40:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as
> prohibiting how powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their skills.
>
> On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna justinsf2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > This story is sad in so many ways!!!  When I initially viewed this story I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance enhancing DRUGS.  After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being.  I do not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist.  I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
> >
> >  
> >
>
> > Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
> >
> >  
> >
> > Just my 2 cents..............
> >  
> >
> > Justin J. Serna
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
> >
> > Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe:
> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Brady Brady

"If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?"

It is an issue because-whether they like it or not-there are kids who idolize these consenting adults.

It is an issue because for every uber-doper, there is someone in the peloton who has been suffering for years as a domestique, paying their dues and playing it straight, just to have their one career SHOT at cracking a top-20 finish.

It is an issue because it attempts to discredit the notion that giving one's best is its own reward, and that usually, no matter how hard one tries, there is someone better... and one has to deal with that.

On another note, It doesn't look like Tyler's current problem had anything to do with all of this. Hopefully he will be able to get the help he needs.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of ewascent@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:40 AM
To: Justin Serna; Chris Streight; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their skills.

On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna > wrote:
>
>
> This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>
>
>
> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>
>
>
> Just my 2 cents..............
>
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

ewascent@gmail.com

The trickle down theory is a discredited economic model, and does not apply
to the accretion of normative tolerance for previously deviant behaviors or
views. I guess I can look past that to see what you are try to communicate.

On Apr 17, 2009 12:18pm, Justin Serna wrote:

> Natural selection and survival of the fittest work great in he wild. If
> we did not create rules to keep drugs out of sports we would have a lot
> of dead or seriously injured young athletes who would do whatever it
> takes to make it to the big leagues. Even with the anti-doping rules that
> are in place we constantly here of high scool aged athletes in trouble
> due to roid rage.

> IMO your statement . "If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical
> procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?"is
> narrow minded and irresponsible. It is an issue because of the trickle
> down theory. I hope you do not need that theory to be explained to you. I
> understand that the athletes in questiuon are adults but you must look at
> the bigger picture.

> Best Regards,

> Justin J. Serna

> 206.491.3730

> From: "ewascent@gmail.com" ewascent@gmail.com>
> To: Justin Serna justinsf2001@yahoo.com>; Chris Streight
> streighty@gmail.com>; obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, Aprto il 17, 2009 11:40:16 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

> If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to
> abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but
> highly visible minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use
> banned medical procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what?
> Random testing and applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and
> money to me. I always assume every top pro is doing something just this
> side of "illegal" in their training and recovery. To me that is as
> tedious as
> prohibiting how powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers
> from out performing their skills.

> On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna justinsf2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story
> I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had
> succumbed to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use
> performance enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger
> subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions
> both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do
> not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has
> much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional
> cyclist. I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move
> on to a more positive place.
> >
> >
> >

> > Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of
> professional cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated
> incident carried out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just my 2 cents..............
> >
> >
> > Justin J. Serna
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
> >
> > Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe:
> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

david baker

That's a joke right? If not you are crazy. Every aspiring cyclist would have to endanger their health to succeed. Ridiculous. It's bad enough that we have to deal with all of the crap we already deal with in this world, the last thing we need is to be doing dangerous drugs to be good at cycling!
----- riginal Message -----
From: ewascent@gmail.com
To: Justin Serna ; Chris Streight ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their skills.

On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:
>
>
> This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>
>
>
> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>
>
>
> Just my 2 cents..............
>
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Justin Serna

Natural selection and survival of the fittest work great in he wild.  If we did not create rules to keep drugs out of sports we would have a lot of dead or seriously injured young athletes who would do whatever it takes to make it to the big leagues.  Even with the anti-doping rules that are in place we constantly here of high scool aged athletes in trouble due to roid rage. 

IMO your statement . "If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue?"is narrow minded and irresponsible.  It is an issue because of the trickle down theory.  I hope you do not need that theory to be explained to you.  I understand that the athletes in questiuon are adults but you must look at the bigger picture.

Best Regards, 

Justin J. Serna

206.491.3730

________________________________
From: "ewascent@gmail.com"
To: Justin Serna ; Chris Streight ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, Aprto il 17, 2009 11:40:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in their training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing their skills.

On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:
>
>
> This story is sad in so many ways!!!  When I initially viewed this story I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance enhancing DRUGS.  After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being.  I do not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist.  I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>
>  
>
> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>
>  
>
> Just my 2 cents..............
>  
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Erik Voldengen

>From what I read, it is quite possible this failed out of competition
test was due to a tainted health supplement.

Not like he was caught doing CERA or anything, and it is indeed
plausible it was an honest mistake.

ewascent@gmail.com

If consenting adults want to use dangerous medical procedures to abnormally
improve their abilities why is that an issue? A small but highly visible
minority of top riders have been busted for trying to use banned medical
procedures to outperform their natural bodies. So what? Random testing and
applying sanctions seems like a waste of talent and money to me. I always
assume every top pro is doing something just this side of "illegal" in
their training and recovery. To me that is as tedious as prohibiting how
powerful a stock car engine can be, to prevent drivers from out performing
their skills.

On Apr 17, 2009 11:27am, Justin Serna wrote:

> This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story I
> was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed
> to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use
> performance enhancing DRUGS. After reading the entire post, my anger
> subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions
> both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do
> not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has
> much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional
> cyclist. I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move
> on to a more positive place.

> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional
> cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried
> out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.

> Just my 2 cents..............

> Justin J. Serna

> From: Chris Streight streighty@gmail.com>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career

> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john

As others have alluded to in past obra emails with regard to perf enhancing
drugs; this sounds like substance abuse issue.

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Justin Serna wrote:

> This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story
> I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed
> to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance
> enhancing *DRUGS.* After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and
> my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and
> present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr.
> Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult
> issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get
> the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>
> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional
> cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out
> by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>
> Just my 2 cents..............
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Chris Streight
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
jms, pe pdx, or
http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/

Chris Streight

Justin I completely agree, it is very sad. Depression is not an easy thing
to deal with, as most are well aware of (except perhaps Tom Cruise).
Hopefully he will be able to pull himself out and do something meaningful. I
definitely feel for he and his family.

Chris

On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Justin Serna wrote:

> This story is sad in so many ways!!! When I initially viewed this story
> I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed
> to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance
> enhancing *DRUGS.* After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and
> my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and
> present made me realize the he is just a human being. I do not condone Mr.
> Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult
> issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist. I hope he will get
> the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.
>
> Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional
> cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out
> by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.
>
> Just my 2 cents..............
>
> Justin J. Serna
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Chris Streight
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton
>
> Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Justin Serna

This story is sad in so many ways!!!  When I initially viewed this story I was disappointed and angered that yet another elite athlete had succumbed to the so called pressure to win and so made the excuse to use performance enhancing DRUGS.  After reading the entire post, my anger subsided and my disappointment and sadness for Mr. Hamilton's decisions both past and present made me realize the he is just a human being.  I do not condone Mr. Hamilton's actions, however it is clear the Tyler has much more difficult issues to deal with than being a professional cyclist.  I hope he will get the assistance he needs and be able to move on to a more positive place.

Hopefully this issue will not further the tarnished view of professional cycling and most will realize that this is an isolated incident carried out by man the has been diagnosed with severe depression.

Just my 2 cents..............
 
Justin J. Serna

________________________________
From: Chris Streight
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 8:07:55 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tyler Hamilton

Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris Streight

Sad ending to Tyler Hamilton's career

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr17news3