Kim Neve

I don't know anything about arnica, but I can tell you with absolute
certainty as a biologist/pharmacologist that a pharmaceutical company
would never fund research on a substance that the company doesn't hope
to bring to market. They would only fund research on arnica or other
natural products if they hope that the products will turn out to be safe
and effective.

> obra-request@list.obra.org wrote:
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:04:08 -0700
> From: Michael Mann
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Arnica
> To: Jon Myers
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Message-ID:
> <1ad458370905141504o1b709b24m8be6bcb1bfde09e6@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> It doesn't take a whole lot of research to find double-blind studies finding
> arnica to be quite effective in relieving swelling and pain. Like a lot of
> studies involving naturopathic/homeopathic/alternative treatments, the
> research discounting their effectiveness is often (but not always) funded by
> U.S. drug companies. No surprises there, I suppose. I'm all for truly
> scientific studies, but you also need to examine whether those conducting
> the research are truly unbiased regarding naturopathic remediesAll I can say
> is try it for yourself and see if it works for you.
>

Ben Fischler

I'm as big a "believer" in science as the next fellow. I depend on
"science" every moment of every day.

I also know that when someone first gave me Arnica gel it helped me. It
still does. Thats enough for me to keep using it. Do I care if I'm
experiencing the benefits of the placebo effect? Not really.

--
-Ben

VFX Supe
Laika

[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Jon Myers wrote:

> As a firm believer in science and proof I like to check out all the claims
> that are made by "natural" treatments. Unfortunetly, most don't have much
> or any foundation in science, not unlike the claims made that a bent up
> piece of sheet metal in the intake manifold of your car will give you 20%
> better fuel economy.
>
> According to the American Cancer Society and their website:
> http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Arnica.asp?sitearea=ETO
>
>
> "What is the history behind it?
>
> Herbal medicines made from arnica flowers and roots have been popular for
> hundreds of years. It has been said that Goethe drank arnica tea to relieve
> chest pains. The leaves were reportedly smoked, like tobacco. More recently,
> homeopathic and topical uses have predominated due to the possible harm in
> taking the herb by mouth.
>
> What is the evidence?
>
> Available scientific evidence does not support most of the claims about
> arnica's effectiveness. In 1998, a review in the Archives of Surgery of 8
> controlled human trials studying the effectiveness of arnica found that
> arnica was no more effective in treating injuries than the placebo with
> which it was compared. The authors found that the studies they reviewed had
> serious flaws in the methods used to evaluate the effectiveness of arnica.
> They concluded that the human trials did not indicate that arnica was
> helpful or beneficial. One randomized clinical trial actually found that
> arnica appeared to increase pain and cause more swelling than the placebo in
> patients who had their wisdom teeth removed.
>
> A 2003 study of 62 patients tested homeopathic arnica to determine whether
> it reduced pain and bruising in patients having surgery for carpal tunnel
> syndrome. There were no differences in pain or bruising between the arnica
> and placebo groups.
>
> ..."
>
> more can be found at the link to the ACS website.
> -Jon Myers
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

shane.young@comcast.net

The problem with science is that it can be bought and sold.  It was bought and sold hundreds of years ago when the earth was flat and we were told the the earth was the center of the universe.  It is bought and sold today by drug companies that own patents.  In the past 10 years, we have seen prominent scientist in the same fields going head to head about what is truth/correct/right.  They can't agree.  What does this say about science?

I don't know anything about Arnica, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't... but because our scientist tell us that is does not work, does not mean it does not work. These same scientist use to tell use that feelings or state of mind had no affect on a pat ient's recovery.  Maybe Arnica is a placebo... it would just go to prove that the mind is better at healing than a "natural" treatment or a drug.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Myers"
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 11:32:43 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Arnica

As a firm believer in science and proof I like to check out all the claims that are made by "natural" treatments.  Unfortunetly, most don't have much or any foundation in science, not unlike the claims made that a bent up piece of sheet metal in the intake manifold of your car will give you 20% better fuel economy.

According to the American Cancer Society and their website:
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Arnica.asp?sitearea=ETO

"What is the history behind it?

Herbal medicines made from arnica flowers and roots have been popular for hundreds of years. It has been said that Goethe drank arnica tea to relieve chest pains. The leaves were reportedly smoked, like tobacco. More recently, homeopathic and topical uses have predominated due to the possible harm in taking the herb by mouth.

What is the evidence?

Available scientific evidence does not support most of the claims about arnica's effectiveness. In 1998, a review in the Archives of Surgery of 8 controlled human trials studying the effectiveness of arnica found that arnica was no more effective in treating injuries than the placebo with which it was compared. The authors found that the studies they reviewed had serious flaws in the methods used to evaluate the effectiveness of arnica. They concluded that the human trials did not indicate that arnica was helpful or beneficial. One randomized clinical trial actually found that arnica appeared to increase pain and cause more swelling than the placebo in patients who had their wisdom teeth removed.

A 2003 study of 62 patients tested homeopathic arnica to determine whether it reduced pain and bruising in patients having surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome. There were no differences in pain or bruising between the arnica and placebo groups.

..."

more can be found at the link to the ACS website.
-Jon Myers
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

juan c

well, despite the results of the 'study' cited and the accompanying cynicism/sarcasm, I believe arnica gel (topical- never used oral) has been of great help to me personally. Similar to the way aspirin works (subtle change over some short amount of time. BTW, also a 'natural' remedy). You wont notice a change the second it goes on, but within minutes. It is only a mild, temporary measure. As far as my experience goes, it doesn't provide a lasting effect- perhaps several hours.

My wife is a physical therapist and has used it for nearly ten years in a professional setting in different offices with positive results. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it provides a benefit.

Michael Mann

It doesn't take a whole lot of research to find double-blind studies finding
arnica to be quite effective in relieving swelling and pain. Like a lot of
studies involving naturopathic/homeopathic/alternative treatments, the
research discounting their effectiveness is often (but not always) funded by
U.S. drug companies. No surprises there, I suppose. I'm all for truly
scientific studies, but you also need to examine whether those conducting
the research are truly unbiased regarding naturopathic remediesAll I can say
is try it for yourself and see if it works for you.

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Jon Myers wrote:

> As a firm believer in science and proof I like to check out all the claims
> that are made by "natural" treatments. Unfortunetly, most don't have much
> or any foundation in science, not unlike the claims made that a bent up
> piece of sheet metal in the intake manifold of your car will give you 20%
> better fuel economy.
>
> According to the American Cancer Society and their website:
> http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Arnica.asp?sitearea=ETO
>
>
> "What is the history behind it?
>
> Herbal medicines made from arnica flowers and roots have been popular for
> hundreds of years. It has been said that Goethe drank arnica tea to relieve
> chest pains. The leaves were reportedly smoked, like tobacco. More recently,
> homeopathic and topical uses have predominated due to the possible harm in
> taking the herb by mouth.
>
> What is the evidence?
>
> Available scientific evidence does not support most of the claims about
> arnica's effectiveness. In 1998, a review in the Archives of Surgery of 8
> controlled human trials studying the effectiveness of arnica found that
> arnica was no more effective in treating injuries than the placebo with
> which it was compared. The authors found that the studies they reviewed had
> serious flaws in the methods used to evaluate the effectiveness of arnica.
> They concluded that the human trials did not indicate that arnica was
> helpful or beneficial. One randomized clinical trial actually found that
> arnica appeared to increase pain and cause more swelling than the placebo in
> patients who had their wisdom teeth removed.
>
> A 2003 study of 62 patients tested homeopathic arnica to determine whether
> it reduced pain and bruising in patients having surgery for carpal tunnel
> syndrome. There were no differences in pain or bruising between the arnica
> and placebo groups.
>
> ..."
>
> more can be found at the link to the ACS website.
> -Jon Myers
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Michael Mann
http://baiku-velomann.blogspot.com/

Quenton Conant

For a grossly inflated premium I can supply you with all the sugar pills you will ever need.

For every order of sugar, I will also include for you free of charge water that is guaranteed to not contain even one molecule of the original substance that you're wanting to ingest!

Act now, operators are standing by.

If your problems aren't slightly better in 4-14 days I'll refund your money.

/sarcasm

Jon Myers

As a firm believer in science and proof I like to check out all the claims that are made by "natural" treatments. Unfortunetly, most don't have much or any foundation in science, not unlike the claims made that a bent up piece of sheet metal in the intake manifold of your car will give you 20% better fuel economy.

According to the American Cancer Society and their website:
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Arnica.asp?sitearea=ETO

"What is the history behind it?

Herbal medicines made from arnica flowers and roots have been popular for hundreds of years. It has been said that Goethe drank arnica tea to relieve chest pains. The leaves were reportedly smoked, like tobacco. More recently, homeopathic and topical uses have predominated due to the possible harm in taking the herb by mouth.

What is the evidence?

Available scientific evidence does not support most of the claims about arnica's effectiveness. In 1998, a review in the Archives of Surgery of 8 controlled human trials studying the effectiveness of arnica found that arnica was no more effective in treating injuries than the placebo with which it was compared. The authors found that the studies they reviewed had serious flaws in the methods used to evaluate the effectiveness of arnica. They concluded that the human trials did not indicate that arnica was helpful or beneficial. One randomized clinical trial actually found that arnica appeared to increase pain and cause more swelling than the placebo in patients who had their wisdom teeth removed.

A 2003 study of 62 patients tested homeopathic arnica to determine whether it reduced pain and bruising in patients having surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome. There were no differences in pain or bruising between the arnica and placebo groups.

..."

more can be found at the link to the ACS website.
-Jon Myers

Raedeke, John

I use this all the time myself. Riding road, mountain and cross I find myself a banged up mess more than I would like to admit to. It does work wonders. There is also an oral version you can get but I like the gel in the gel tube best. Another I have found to be quite good is Traumeel Gel (it has arnica in it as well and a host of other plants). It works really good too, great for sore muscles and tendons from hard workouts as well. www.heelUSA.com

john

On 5/14/09 9:53 AM, "J. David Coughlin" wrote:

Following a crash last year and significant bruising on my face and arm, a masseuse recommended I try Arnica to reduce the bruising. I did and it worked great. It is a homeopathic substance that you take sublingually. Now, I have crashed again(I know, I know) resulting in, among other things, a large hematoma on my hip. I started Arnica the day of the wreck and, 4 days later, the hematoma has all but disappeared with little discoloration and substantially reduced swelling.

I'd be interested in hearing other folk's experience with this substance. I know it certainly worked great for me.

J. David Coughlin
Attorney at Law
Coughlin, Leuenberger & Moon, PC
1650 Dewey Avenue
PO Box 1026
Baker City, OR 97814
P: (541) 523-6535
F: (541) 523-6530

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Michael Mann

I've had similar experience with Arnica - probably the most-used item in our
medicine cabinet (3 kids). Great for bruises and superficial stuff. I
wouldn't use Arnica gel on open wounds, however.

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:53 AM, J. David Coughlin wrote:

> Following a crash last year and significant bruising on my face and arm,
> a masseuse recommended I try Arnica to reduce the bruising. I did and it
> worked great. It is a homeopathic substance that you take sublingually.
> Now, I have crashed again(I know, I know) resulting in, among other things,
> a large hematoma on my hip. I started Arnica the day of the wreck and, 4
> days later, the hematoma has all but disappeared with little discoloration
> and substantially reduced swelling.
>
>
>
> I’d be interested in hearing other folk’s experience with this substance.
> I know it certainly worked great for me.
>
>
>
> J. David Coughlin
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> Coughlin, Leuenberger & Moon, PC
> 1650 Dewey Avenue
> PO Box 1026
> Baker City, OR 97814
>
> P: (541) 523-6535
> F: (541) 523-6530
>
>
>
> *Confidentiality Notice:* This e-mail message, including any attachments,
> is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
> discourse or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies
> of the original message. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
Michael Mann
http://baiku-velomann.blogspot.com/

Ben Fischler

My wife is an acupuncturist (shameless plug: www.kinefischler.com,) and she
got me on Arnica for muscle pain and now I keep it around all the time for
minor muscle/tendon soreness. It totally works for me and I've heard the
same from tons of folks.
--
-Ben

VFX Supe
Laika

[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:53 AM, J. David Coughlin wrote:

> Following a crash last year and significant bruising on my face and arm,
> a masseuse recommended I try Arnica to reduce the bruising. I did and it
> worked great. It is a homeopathic substance that you take sublingually.
> Now, I have crashed again(I know, I know) resulting in, among other things,
> a large hematoma on my hip. I started Arnica the day of the wreck and, 4
> days later, the hematoma has all but disappeared with little discoloration
> and substantially reduced swelling.
>
>
>
> I’d be interested in hearing other folk’s experience with this substance.
> I know it certainly worked great for me.
>
>
>
> J. David Coughlin
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> Coughlin, Leuenberger & Moon, PC
> 1650 Dewey Avenue
> PO Box 1026
> Baker City, OR 97814
>
> P: (541) 523-6535
> F: (541) 523-6530
>
>
>
> *Confidentiality Notice:* This e-mail message, including any attachments,
> is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain
> confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
> discourse or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies
> of the original message. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

J. David Coughlin

Following a crash last year and significant bruising on my face and arm, a
masseuse recommended I try Arnica to reduce the bruising. I did and it
worked great. It is a homeopathic substance that you take sublingually.
Now, I have crashed again(I know, I know) resulting in, among other things,
a large hematoma on my hip. I started Arnica the day of the wreck and, 4
days later, the hematoma has all but disappeared with little discoloration
and substantially reduced swelling.

I'd be interested in hearing other folk's experience with this substance. I
know it certainly worked great for me.

J. David Coughlin

Attorney at Law

Coughlin, Leuenberger & Moon, PC
1650 Dewey Avenue
PO Box 1026
Baker City, OR 97814

P: (541) 523-6535
F: (541) 523-6530

Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential
and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, discourse or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original
message. Thank you.