Juniors on Tandems

Jorgensen's

2009-05-25

Mike, maybe the 75cm wide limit was to accommodate the racing trikes that
may one day make their way to Oregon as the next "latest thing". If two
wheels are good, three must be better. This isn't your grandma's trike.
http://www.tricycleassociation.org.uk/Kingsford2006.html

Steve Jorgensen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

>I think there still needs to be a minimum age. The thought of a 2 week old
> in a trailer at a race, even a TT, just gives me the creeps.
>
> Perhaps there also needs to be a more restrictive definition of a bike
> too.
> The current one is:
>
> "7.3.1.2 Bicycles must be no more than 2 meters long and 75 cm wide.
> Tandems may be up to 3 meters long. "
>
> 75 cm is WIDE. I suspect that this might actually be a misprint. 50 cm
> should be plenty. There is no current restriction on number of wheels or
> configuration. Tricycles, quads, trailers, tag-a-longs, tall bikes, etc.
> are
> not excluded under current rules as long as the entire thing isn't longer
> than 3 M. In fact, there is no rule which would prohibit someone on a
> tandem, 4 wheeled recumbent or tall bike from entering a regular mass
> start
> race under current rules except:
>
> "7.6 - .... The Chief Referee may disallow the start of any rider using
> equipment or clothing deemed dangerous or inadequate. "
>
> Perhaps a minimum and maximum height restriction as well as a listing of
> permissible number of wheels and riders would be a good idea.
>
> It also needs to be recognized that there is a difference between rules
> and
> what really happens. I don't think that we have ever had a recumbent
> tandem
> try to enter a race. On the other end there is a regular rider of cross
> events who rides a bike with an extended fork that makes his bike illegal
> but no one seems to care about it.
>
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Micros8391@aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 15:45 PM
> To: jmikami@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems
>
>
> I would like to propose the following rule change.
>
> Youth is defined as riders under the age of 10. Youth riders may enter
> only youth races and may not be mixed with other categories except as
> stokers on tandems at the discretion of the race promoter. Youth only
> races
> can only must be held on closed courses.
>
> Mike Rosenberg
>
>
>
> An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
>
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Ron and Dorothy Strasser

2009-05-25

I have not been following (been deleting) except this post. Not knowing all that has been posted it sounds like some conflict about juniors getting to race. I would hope that common sense would enlighten OBRA members to realize that giving kids as many chances to race as possible will keep OBRA strong. I may be having a second childhood at 59, but the chances of me being around as an OBRA member in 20 years are not as high as racer of 12. If there is some sort of conflict, get it figured out and "Let 'em race"!
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Geri Bossen
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I rode a tandem on CycleOregon with my son Mikkel from the time he was 5 years old. He would have loved to have done some tandem races when he was young. He also captained the tandem at 10 years old with my 5 year old niece.

I think it is a great way to introduce kids to riding safely and would be a fun way for them to race.

The great thing about OBRA is we can make this kind of racing happen.

Geri Bossen

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Mike Murray

2009-05-25

I think there still needs to be a minimum age. The thought of a 2 week old
in a trailer at a race, even a TT, just gives me the creeps.

Perhaps there also needs to be a more restrictive definition of a bike too.
The current one is:

"7.3.1.2 Bicycles must be no more than 2 meters long and 75 cm wide.
Tandems may be up to 3 meters long. "

75 cm is WIDE. I suspect that this might actually be a misprint. 50 cm
should be plenty. There is no current restriction on number of wheels or
configuration. Tricycles, quads, trailers, tag-a-longs, tall bikes, etc. are
not excluded under current rules as long as the entire thing isn't longer
than 3 M. In fact, there is no rule which would prohibit someone on a
tandem, 4 wheeled recumbent or tall bike from entering a regular mass start
race under current rules except:

"7.6 - .... The Chief Referee may disallow the start of any rider using
equipment or clothing deemed dangerous or inadequate. "

Perhaps a minimum and maximum height restriction as well as a listing of
permissible number of wheels and riders would be a good idea.

It also needs to be recognized that there is a difference between rules and
what really happens. I don't think that we have ever had a recumbent tandem
try to enter a race. On the other end there is a regular rider of cross
events who rides a bike with an extended fork that makes his bike illegal
but no one seems to care about it.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Micros8391@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 15:45 PM
To: jmikami@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I would like to propose the following rule change.

Youth is defined as riders under the age of 10. Youth riders may enter
only youth races and may not be mixed with other categories except as
stokers on tandems at the discretion of the race promoter. Youth only races
can only must be held on closed courses.

Mike Rosenberg

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


Geri Bossen

2009-05-25

I rode a tandem on CycleOregon with my son Mikkel from the time he was 5 years old. He would have loved to have done some tandem races when he was young. He also captained the tandem at 10 years old with my 5 year old niece.

I think it is a great way to introduce kids to riding safely and would be a fun way for them to race.

The great thing about OBRA is we can make this kind of racing happen.

Geri Bossen

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009


jmikami@comcast.net

2009-05-24

I could take a lesson on being concise from Mike.  However, I think that the last sentence would rule out most if not all TTs and Road races as only crits are held on closed courses.  

I would also like to see some limits to the drivers of stokers to help make me feel better if I am to enter a mass start race and limit prizes to equal value to the entire field.  I made a shortened version of my earlier post that leaves a little more upto the promoter of the race.

... Youth   only   races   can only   must   be held on closed courses. Tandem races with a y outh stoker a nd an adult driver may be held on any course.  Prizes for any races open to youth riders must be of equal value to all participants.  All tandem mass start events with youth stokers must be on a standard tandem bike, Time Trials may use either a standard tandem or an attached tagalong style bike.  The race promoter must specify that a tandem race is open to youth stokers or include a seperate race category for this event.

Is that too much?  Anything else that is missing?  How do people feel about allowing promoters to include youth stoker events mixed with adult races?  I still think that is a bad idea for two reasons.  1) adult tandem races are typically more aggressive (ie crashes more likely and more dangerous) and the goal is to win which is more than I am interested in at this time.  2) in most cases the adult pairs would quickly gap the youth stoker tandems creating two groups of riders which is more difficult to manage in a RR and again creates passing issues in crits.

I also feel that the driver must be older/more experienced in some way, but these are not sticking points for me, just what I am thinking today.  Curious what others think as I would like to get something like this infront of the board this year.

----- Original Message -----
From: Micros8391@aol.com
To: jmikami@comcast.net, obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:45:02 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I would like to propose the following rule change.
 

Youth is defined as riders under the age of 10.    Youth riders may enter only youth races and may not be mixed with other categories except as stokers on tandems at the discretion of the race promoter.   Youth only races can only must be held on closed courses.

 

Mike Rosenberg


tpietzold@aol.com

2009-05-24

With a sport not promoted by the school system we need to find balance between safety and encouraging kids to race.? If we make it difficult it will be hard to encourage kids to come out on their bicycles for more than just a kiddie race.? They need to build up and be able to have experience and strength on the bike for Junior Racing.

I have raced against Mike and his son Sam.? Some of our fondest and most inspirational memories are of the two of them on the tandem.? I think what is being proposed is both safe and reasonable.? I like how you worded it Mike.

PS:? Had the pleasure of riding back in to Salem on the Monster Cookie with Sam who is now a teenager and STILL riding.

Way to go.?

Theresa

-----Original Message-----
From: Micros8391@aol.com
To: jmikami@comcast.net; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Sun, 24 May 2009 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I would like to propose the following rule change.

?

Youth is defined as riders under the age of 10.?? Youth riders may enter only youth races and may not be mixed with other categories except as stokers on tandems at the discretion of the race promoter.? Youth only races can only must be held on closed courses.

?

Mike Rosenberg

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

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Micros8391@aol.com

2009-05-24

I would like to propose the following rule change.


Youth is defined as riders under the age of 10. Youth riders may enter
only youth races and may not be mixed with other categories except as stokers
on tandems at the discretion of the race promoter. Youth only races can
only must be held on closed courses.
Mike Rosenberg
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322948x1201367184/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=May
ExcfooterNO62)


Eric Hopper

2009-05-24

Under the current rules and interpretations, can a promoter offer a separate
youth stoker category, or is that prohibited too?

I was one of the dads with a 6 year old at the 48 mile Rehearsal Road Race.
There was another 6 year, a 9 year old, and another kid who was apparently
over 10. For perspective, we were all off the back on the first part of the
first lap. My son and I completed the 48 miles with no problem (we've done
a century too), but obviously we were not competitive. Still, he absolutely
loves riding and racing. If he cannot race anymore, it would be very
disappointing to him. Maybe I'm missing some events, but I am aware of very
few opportunities for him to compete in "youth" races. On a tandem as
stoker seems perfect as it eliminates his inexperience being a factor for
safety while still giving him a taste of racing. If anyone thinks this is
too hard for someone of his age, I invite you to hang out with my son after
a 50, 75, 100 mile ride. Generally the first thing he does is hop on his
single and race the other kids around the neighborhood.

For those who think non-competitive group events might be safer, I disagree!
I am far more concerned for our safety in those groups where cyclists are
not accustomed to riding in close proximity to each other.

As far as defining an age limit, I don't know where one would set that and
why it would be necessary. One has to be a certain size to fit, even with a
child's stoker kit. Once they reach that size, go for it. Frankly, I don't
see how a 10 year is any different than a 6 year old when it comes to
liability, safety, etc.

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of jamie
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 1:22 PM
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I have already spoke my mind in part but ... I think the most important part
of this issue is that we realize this is not a true competition for mass
start events, even though governed by a racing organization. So fears of
pushing our kids to the limits and massive crashes would hopefully be very
limited. I feel making it child/parent is too restrictive, but then again
if that is the only way to make it happen it seems ok. However uncles/aunts
and older siblings might want in on the fun as well. Family seems like a
good boundry, but how to you restrict that?

Having something like a requirement of no prizes or only equal prizes to all
participants is another good rule that well help remove the idea of an
agressive driver taking too many chances. Maybe restrict to stoker
ribbons/medals only? To me the whole idea is to involve the kids in a fun
day out and getting them involved in the sport. This is an event that is
like the regular youth races we see at the crits, but with an extra step of
length added. Maybe in that aspect we promote it as a youth only stoker to
keep it simple? but then what about the 12 year old stoker who is new, do
we require that they ride with the older groups, I think that is a grey line
I would like to leave upto the promoter and parent as I would have no issue
racing against slightly older stokers as long as everyone had the same basic
goal of enjoying the event and not winning at all costs.

As for my kids, I have a hard time thinking I would ever let someone else
pilot them, but then again I can also see the case where it might be ok. As
for the people that feel we are pushing our kids too hard or putting them in
harms way ... we do that every day we get in a car, or go anywhere with our
kids. Life is about making choices and I see this as far safer than taking
my son out on the open road with cars. Basically I am paying my $20 for a
safe and organized ride with friends and my son thinks its cool because it
is called a race. They get to learn about winning and losing and being a
good sport, while spending time with daddy/mommy doing something both love.

I am also pro tagalongs for time trials only. In my opinion just about any
human powered vehicle should be allowed for any time trial as long as the
promoter is ok with special categories. I think that is the easiest way to
get someone started and actually allow you to race with your kids vs a more
low key aspect to the mass start events.

As Candi mentioned there is likely a need for a minimum age, especially for
mass start events. 8 seems like a logically starting point for me, but if
it was low key enough I could see my 5 year old doing a mass start race for
fun. I know that he would love it. For TTs I think the starting age is
even harder to set, but maybe we use the basic idea of car seats. If the
kids are 40 pounds, 40 inches which is about 4 years old, then they are ok
just like being able to be in a booster seat.

And yes I still fear for the first time we have a crash with a little kid
buried under a 40 pound tandem and 200 pound driver. But then again that is
better than being hit by a car or many of the other things that can go wrong
on a day to day basis. Heck my 2 year old nephew just broke his tibia
coming down the slide at the park ... so what are you going to do?

Jamie

----- Original Message -----

From: Leibowitz, Flo

To: OBRA

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:29 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I'm not a parent, nor a tandem rider. However, I like how OBRA events
typically try to be family-friendly. So I think this is a great discussion
to have introduced. I have a couple of questions I'd like to hear more from
the tandem parents about.

1. Are you ok with youth stoking for mass-start races of any kind, even with
you as the captain? What does "youth" mean to you here?

(What if youth stokers were permitted in time trials when the captain is one
of his or her parents, but parent-child mass-start teams were restricted to
the special case of a designated parent-child field? Is that too
restrictive, in your opinion? I gather that many races might not make that
special field practical, but some dedicated tandem events and the like might
be able to do so.)

2. I love the idea of allowing tagalongs on some time trials. I assume,
though, that it'd be better to have a length limit on these, too. I have no
idea how practical this field would be for promoters, but I guess that's a
separate question.

_____

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jamie

2009-05-24

I have already spoke my mind in part but ... I think the most important part of this issue is that we realize this is not a true competition for mass start events, even though governed by a racing organization. So fears of pushing our kids to the limits and massive crashes would hopefully be very limited. I feel making it child/parent is too restrictive, but then again if that is the only way to make it happen it seems ok. However uncles/aunts and older siblings might want in on the fun as well. Family seems like a good boundry, but how to you restrict that?

Having something like a requirement of no prizes or only equal prizes to all participants is another good rule that well help remove the idea of an agressive driver taking too many chances. Maybe restrict to stoker ribbons/medals only? To me the whole idea is to involve the kids in a fun day out and getting them involved in the sport. This is an event that is like the regular youth races we see at the crits, but with an extra step of length added. Maybe in that aspect we promote it as a youth only stoker to keep it simple? but then what about the 12 year old stoker who is new, do we require that they ride with the older groups, I think that is a grey line I would like to leave upto the promoter and parent as I would have no issue racing against slightly older stokers as long as everyone had the same basic goal of enjoying the event and not winning at all costs.

As for my kids, I have a hard time thinking I would ever let someone else pilot them, but then again I can also see the case where it might be ok. As for the people that feel we are pushing our kids too hard or putting them in harms way ... we do that every day we get in a car, or go anywhere with our kids. Life is about making choices and I see this as far safer than taking my son out on the open road with cars. Basically I am paying my $20 for a safe and organized ride with friends and my son thinks its cool because it is called a race. They get to learn about winning and losing and being a good sport, while spending time with daddy/mommy doing something both love.

I am also pro tagalongs for time trials only. In my opinion just about any human powered vehicle should be allowed for any time trial as long as the promoter is ok with special categories. I think that is the easiest way to get someone started and actually allow you to race with your kids vs a more low key aspect to the mass start events.

As Candi mentioned there is likely a need for a minimum age, especially for mass start events. 8 seems like a logically starting point for me, but if it was low key enough I could see my 5 year old doing a mass start race for fun. I know that he would love it. For TTs I think the starting age is even harder to set, but maybe we use the basic idea of car seats. If the kids are 40 pounds, 40 inches which is about 4 years old, then they are ok just like being able to be in a booster seat.

And yes I still fear for the first time we have a crash with a little kid buried under a 40 pound tandem and 200 pound driver. But then again that is better than being hit by a car or many of the other things that can go wrong on a day to day basis. Heck my 2 year old nephew just broke his tibia coming down the slide at the park ... so what are you going to do?

Jamie

----- Original Message -----
From: Leibowitz, Flo
To: OBRA
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I'm not a parent, nor a tandem rider. However, I like how OBRA events typically try to be family-friendly. So I think this is a great discussion to have introduced. I have a couple of questions I'd like to hear more from the tandem parents about.

1. Are you ok with youth stoking for mass-start races of any kind, even with you as the captain? What does "youth" mean to you here?
(What if youth stokers were permitted in time trials when the captain is one of his or her parents, but parent-child mass-start teams were restricted to the special case of a designated parent-child field? Is that too restrictive, in your opinion? I gather that many races might not make that special field practical, but some dedicated tandem events and the like might be able to do so.)

2. I love the idea of allowing tagalongs on some time trials. I assume, though, that it'd be better to have a length limit on these, too. I have no idea how practical this field would be for promoters, but I guess that's a separate question.

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Leibowitz, Flo

2009-05-24

I'm not a parent, nor a tandem rider. However, I like how OBRA events typically try to be family-friendly. So I think this is a great discussion to have introduced. I have a couple of questions I'd like to hear more from the tandem parents about.

1. Are you ok with youth stoking for mass-start races of any kind, even with you as the captain? What does "youth" mean to you here?
(What if youth stokers were permitted in time trials when the captain is one of his or her parents, but parent-child mass-start teams were restricted to the special case of a designated parent-child field? Is that too restrictive, in your opinion? I gather that many races might not make that special field practical, but some dedicated tandem events and the like might be able to do so.)

2. I love the idea of allowing tagalongs on some time trials. I assume, though, that it'd be better to have a length limit on these, too. I have no idea how practical this field would be for promoters, but I guess that's a separate question.


Mike Murray

2009-05-24

To be clear, the mechanism for rule changes is delineated at the start of
the rules:

"Modification of these rules may be made by vote of the club
representatives, generally at an annual meeting. Proposed rule changes shall
be presented to OBRA in written form to be voted on by the club
representatives. The OBRA board may in an emergency, or in the case of a
time sensitive matter, make modifications to these rules. Changes to the
rules which are primarily of a housekeeping nature, such as printing format
or changing numbering, may be made without board approval."

As Candi wrote, this is a new rule adopted at the annual meeting last year.
As I recall there was no discussion re: tandems. This is NOT a new
interpretation. Actually, allowing the younger riders to compete was a
mis-interpretation of the new existing rule.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Candi Murray
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 09:13 AM
To: Micros8391@aol.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

This new interpretation was voted on this past January. It came about as a
result of underage juniors racing on the same ccx course as adults and
caused at least 1 accident. If you want this rule amended then someone
needs to put forth a change. However it needs to be clearly defined. You do
not want a newborn on the back of the bike. I would also suggest that if it
is a tandem specific change that the captain be required to be a parental
figure. But the ball is in the tandems court to come up with a clearly
worded change and submit it.
Candi

_____

From: Micros8391@aol.com [mailto:Micros8391@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:36 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules
regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally.
My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be
reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the
rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue
of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many
of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The
Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short
time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination.
I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not
considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very
young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older
riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not
allow a young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a
big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids
participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race
today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four
separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to
give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and
fans.

Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an
interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation
committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that
body should consider this issue.

Mike Rosenberg

_____

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See
Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


Michael O'Hair

2009-05-24

This has gotten out of hand. This is bike racing and people get hurt. When a bike goes down and a 9 year kid does a face plant, you're looking at the potential for life long injuries and huge medical bills. And that puts OBRA at risk. People will say, "... but I wouldn't sue OBRA..." but wait until those five and six figure bills start rolling in and the insurance company says "No way we're paying that claim."
Attitudes change really fast then.

One thing about children is that they pick up their parents' enthusiasms. That enthusiasm comes to an end when it dawns on them that they can get hurt.

If you want to put your kid on the back of your tandem, go on a non-competetive group ride.


jamie

2009-05-24

I am very interesting in some open debate on this issue as it directly effects me and my 5 year old son. I personally think he is currently way too young to be in any kind of real race with me today, but was wondering when we could race together as we ride a few days a week now. I was thinking 8 is likely a good age for stokers in mass start events, but I think it depends on the event and I think we need to consider a few things.

1) Crashes still happen, even in parent/child tandem races and we need to consider the effect of a crash on someone under 10 or 8 or whatever the new rule is. I am still very nervous on open rodes with my son as all it will take is one bad moment to cause him more than his fare share of pain or worse. I am thinking here is where 10 is almost a good age for a crit or a road race, but seems too old for a TT. I would even venture to say that 10 is a little on the young side for a crit in many cases, but not all.

2) Endurance and overworking a kid is likely an issue as they hit that middle ground around 8 years old. Today my son coasts as much as he rides and doesn't really get overworked even on a two hour ride. Anything over an hour and I tend to take a break to get him off the saddle. However I would venture to guess that the competitive spirit and understanding of the results will soon change that and I will have to start pushing him to slow down and relax at some point. Here a distance limit seems like a good idea for anyone under a certain age.

3) Drivers age is important as well. A 12 year driving an 8 year is not a good idea, but where is the line? I think a good default is a parent driver for youth, but that seems to restrictive. There just needs to some thought in this area as well as even an 18 year driver with a sub 10 year old stoker in a crit seems like a dangerous idea to me. I was making way to many marginal assumptions at 18 to have a little kid at the whim of each of my crashes. I think I crashed more between 18 and 21 than I have between 22 and 38.

4) Insurance. How does this affect the OBRA insurance policy?

5) Participation. I am far more likely to enter an OBRA youth tandem event if I know that I and my children are being protected to an extent. This means requiring experienced drivers for mass start events and knowing that everyone else in the race has something a little more fragile on the back side. Races bring out aggression and that competitive spirit in me as much as the next person but if everyone is in the same boat, then I think it could be very fun. I know that my sone talks all the time about how he won the blue ribbon at Alpenrose last year. He really wants to race this year.

My current thoughts are that any age should be permitted for a TT, I could even see myself entering a race this year with my 5 year old, and next year with my daughter when she turns 4. Crashes are rare and without all the other riders next to you it would be easy for each parent to ensure that their kids are not overworked and just out to enjoy the event. Not everything needs to be a race to the finish. However I would be very unlikely to enter my son in a crit if there were two adults or even older child stokers. I am not sure what age I would want to subject him to that, but under 10 year old stokers should not be mixed with over ... 14 year old stokers in the same crit or road race ... maybe?

In the end the rules are meant for interpretation and rules are also meant to be changed as needed. I think it is very healthy to have a race of mixed youth and adults as long as the whole group is that way.

My current idea would be something like the following.

Youth tandem races are defined as any race that allows an adult driver (over age 16?, 18?) and a youth stoker (under age 10). Drivers must have previous race experience for mass start races and be at least category 4. For mass start races the driver is recommended to be at least a cat 3 with previous experience racing a tandem.

Events that allow youth stokers must state so on the official flyer for the race. Youth stokers will be permitted in any time trial at the discretion of the promoter. For mass start races youth stokers should be in events with only other youth stokers or junior stokers upto age 14 and with appropriately experienced drivers. While promoters have the ability to combine groups it is not recommended to combine youth tandem events with other tandem groups with the exception already noted of stokers upto age 14. Youth stokers are not allowed to be combined with non tandem events. Tandem events with stokers under the age of 8 cannot be combined with tandem races that include adult stokers for mass start events.

Duration: Youth tandem events are limited in duration. 30 minutes for a crit and 40 miles for a road race. Exceptions for road races with appropriate sag support is allowed.

Equipment: Do we allow the tag-a-long type bikes in TT events? I would assume that a standard tandem would be required for all mass start events, but again to encourage people to come to these events, I think a tag-a-long attachment would be fine for a TT.

So there is a first draft of a rule change ... lets see what happens.

Jamie

----- Original Message -----
From: Brett Luelling
To: OBRA
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I agree that the rule was probably not originally intended for kids riding stoker on a tandem. Candi has provided a path to correct the issue though, a rule change needs to be proposed and voted on. Any volunteers to propose the rule change?

Brett

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:27 PM, scott hill wrote:

yes let us/me know because i have a young child and we were going to buy a co-motion tandem specifically for this purpose. parent/child tandem racing. if OBRA were to get ride of this type of racing it would really hurt getting kids involved in racing.

scott
--- On Sun, 5/24/09, Salvatore Collura wrote:

From: Salvatore Collura

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

To: "Mike Rosenberg" , cmurray@obra.org, obra@list.obra.org
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 12:07 AM

I agree that the interpretation of this rule should be clearly defined, one way or the other, and soon.
It will affect our categories at 2009 Co-Motion Classic Racing events.

BTW, the parent/child class is the fastest growing group in tandem racing.

-sal

--------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Micros8391@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:35:54 -0400
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally. My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination. I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not allow a young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and fans.

Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that body should consider this issue.

Mike Rosenberg

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Candi Murray

2009-05-24

This new interpretation was voted on this past January. It came about as a
result of underage juniors racing on the same ccx course as adults and
caused at least 1 accident. If you want this rule amended then someone
needs to put forth a change. However it needs to be clearly defined. You do
not want a newborn on the back of the bike. I would also suggest that if it
is a tandem specific change that the captain be required to be a parental
figure. But the ball is in the tandems court to come up with a clearly
worded change and submit it.
Candi

_____

From: Micros8391@aol.com [mailto:Micros8391@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:36 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules
regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally.
My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be
reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the
rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue
of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many
of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The
Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short
time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination.
I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not
considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very
young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older
riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not
allow a young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a
big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids
participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race
today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four
separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to
give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and
fans.

Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an
interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation
committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that
body should consider this issue.

Mike Rosenberg

_____

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See
Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


Candi Murray

2009-05-24

I would also like to hear from any attorneys out there. If we make a
specific change that lowers the age for tandem events does that affect our
liability at all.
Candi

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Brett Luelling
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:09 AM
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

I agree that the rule was probably not originally intended for kids riding
stoker on a tandem. Candi has provided a path to correct the issue though, a
rule change needs to be proposed and voted on. Any volunteers to propose the
rule change?

Brett

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:27 PM, scott hill
wrote:

yes let us/me know because i have a young child and we were going to buy a
co-motion tandem specifically for this purpose. parent/child tandem racing.
if OBRA were to get ride of this type of racing it would really hurt getting
kids involved in racing.

scott
--- On Sun, 5/24/09, Salvatore Collura wrote:

From: Salvatore Collura

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

To: "Mike Rosenberg" , cmurray@obra.org,
obra@list.obra.org
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 12:07 AM

I agree that the interpretation of this rule should be clearly defined, one
way or the other, and soon.
It will affect our categories at 2009 Co-Motion Classic Racing events.

BTW, the parent/child class is the fastest growing group in tandem racing.

-sal

_____

From: Micros8391@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:35:54 -0400
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules
regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally.
My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be
reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the
rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue
of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many
of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The
Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short
time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination.
I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not
considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very
young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older
riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not
allow a young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a
big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids
participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race
today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four
separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to
give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and
fans.

Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an
interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation
committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that
body should consider this issue.

Mike Rosenberg

_____

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Brett Luelling

2009-05-24

I agree that the rule was probably not originally intended for kids riding
stoker on a tandem. Candi has provided a path to correct the issue though, a
rule change needs to be proposed and voted on. Any volunteers to propose the
rule change?
Brett

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:27 PM, scott hill wrote:

> yes let us/me know because i have a young child and we were going to buy a
> co-motion tandem specifically for this purpose. parent/child tandem racing.
> if OBRA were to get ride of this type of racing it would really hurt
> getting kids involved in racing.
> scott
> --- On *Sun, 5/24/09, Salvatore Collura * wrote:
>
>
> From: Salvatore Collura
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems
> To: "Mike Rosenberg" , cmurray@obra.org,
> obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 12:07 AM
>
>
> I agree that the interpretation of this rule should be clearly defined,
> one way or the other, and soon. It will affect our categories at 2009
> Co-Motion Classic Racing events.
>
> BTW, the parent/child class is the fastest growing group in tandem racing.
>
> -sal
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: Micros8391@aol.com
> Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:35:54 -0400
> To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems
>
> First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules
> regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally.
> My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be
> reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the
> rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue
> of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many
> of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The
> Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short
> time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination.
> I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not
> considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very
> young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older
> riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not
> allow a young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a
> big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids
> participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race
> today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four
> separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to
> give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and
> fans.
>
>
>
> Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an
> interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation
> committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that
> body should consider this issue.
>
>
>
> Mike Rosenberg
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
> *
>
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>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


scott hill

2009-05-23

yes let us/me know because i have a young child and we were going to buy a co-motion tandem specifically for this purpose. parent/child tandem racing. if OBRA were to get ride of this type of racing it would really hurt getting kids involved in racing.

scott
--- On Sun, 5/24/09, Salvatore Collura wrote:

From: Salvatore Collura
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems
To: "Mike Rosenberg" , cmurray@obra.org, obra@list.obra.org
Date: Sunday, May 24, 2009, 12:07 AM

#yiv1696927145 .hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;padding:0px;}
#yiv1696927145 {
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}

I agree that the interpretation of this rule should be clearly defined, one way or the other, and soon.
It will affect our categories at 2009 Co-Motion Classic Racing events.

BTW, the parent/child class is the fastest growing group in tandem racing.

-sal

From: Micros8391@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:35:54 -0400
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally. My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination. I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not allow a
young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and fans.
 
Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that body should consider this issue.
 
Mike Rosenberg
 

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Salvatore Collura

2009-05-23

I agree that the interpretation of this rule should be clearly defined, one way or the other, and soon.It will affect our categories at 2009 Co-Motion Classic Racing events.
BTW, the parent/child class is the fastest growing group in tandem racing.
-sal

From: Micros8391@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:35:54 -0400
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally. My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination. I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not allow a young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and fans.

Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that body should consider this issue.

Mike Rosenberg

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


Micros8391@aol.com

2009-05-23

Junior boys 10-12, junior girls 10-12, junior boys 13-14, junior girls
13-14.
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
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ExcfooterNO62)


lisa graham

2009-05-23

oops 15-16

h

p i

u l

Me after a long ride ^^ l

From: ndnalways@hotmail.com
To: micros8391@aol.com; cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:51:29 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

only 2 jr categories raced today,10-12 and 13-14
the other jr categories 15-15 and 17-18 are next week

h

p i

u l

Me after a long ride ^^ l

From: Micros8391@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:35:54 -0400
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally. My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination. I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not allow a young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and fans.

Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that body should consider this issue.

Mike Rosenberg

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


lisa graham

2009-05-23

only 2 jr categories raced today,10-12 and 13-14
the other jr categories 15-15 and 17-18 are next week

h

p i

u l

Me after a long ride ^^ l

From: Micros8391@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:35:54 -0400
To: cmurray@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors on Tandems

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally. My kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be reconsidered. I understand that it is probably not possible to change the rules in mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue of interpretation of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many of the local time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The Co-Motion Classic Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short time trial and road race that mostly caters to the parent child combination. I am fairly certain that the people who conceived this rule were not considering kids stoking tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very young kids to control a bike in a race on open roads or in races with older riders to whom they could pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not allow a young kid to ride behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a big problem in Oregon racing in that there are hardly any kids participating. This will make it even worse. The OBRA Championship race today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10 and 14. That covered four separate categories! Racing tandems with their parents is a great way to give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life long competitors and fans.

Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation committee or technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that body should consider this issue.

Mike Rosenberg

An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!


Micros8391@aol.com

2009-05-23

First off, let me make it clear that this new interpretation of rules
regarding the age of stokers in tandem races does not affect me personally. My
kids are both beyond that age. However, I think this should be reconsidered. I
understand that it is probably not possible to change the rules in
mid-season (or maybe it is). But, I think this is clearly an issue of interpretation
of the rules. And this is a brand new interpretation. Many of the local
time trials have been well attended by this demographic. The Co-Motion Classic
Tandem Race even includes a C category that does a short time trial and road
race that mostly caters to the parent child combination. I am fairly
certain that the people who conceived this rule were not considering kids stoking
tandems. It makes perfect sense to not allow very young kids to control a
bike in a race on open roads or in races with older riders to whom they could
pose a danger. However it makes no sense to not allow a young kid to ride
behind their parent in a tandem race. We have a big problem in Oregon racing
in that there are hardly any kids participating. This will make it even
worse. The OBRA Championship race today had 7 total kids between the ages of 10
and 14. That covered four separate categories! Racing tandems with their
parents is a great way to give kids exposure to racing, and turn them into life
long competitors and fans.
Once again, I am not sure there needs a change in the rules, just an
interpretation that makes more sense. Is there a rules interpretation committee or
technical advisory committee within OBRA? If there is, that body should
consider this issue.
Mike Rosenberg
**************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy
Steps!
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322948x1201367184/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=May
ExcfooterNO62)


Candi Murray

2009-05-23

It was great to see all of you come out today. And I know that this message
will be unpopular, especially since it mostly impacts people from my team.
However. The OBRA rules state

JUNIORS may be any age range between 10 and 18
Youth is defined as riders under the age of 10. Youth riders may enter
only youth races and may not be mixed with other categories. Youth races
can only be held on closed courses.

Riders under the age of 10 are simply not permitted to participate in adult
races. There was an exception made today. It will not be made in the
future. If you disagree with this rule it is up to you to propose a rule
change for the clubs to vote upon.

Candi