Like toPedal

OBRA member: "But what I haven't seen is
any evidence that proves having riders under the age of ten racing on
the back of a tandem with an adult conclusively results in a long term
involvement with cycling."

you argue above that you haven't seen "evidence" or "studies" . then below you "theorize" a mishap without citing any "evidence" or "studies". that isn't fair.

OBRA member: "In contrast a youth
racing on board a tandem with an adult will achieve a much higher speed
and in the event of a mishap could be colliding with people considerably
more massive."

you also state "Consider that children under ten years of age are not fully developed
physically, nor are they are not mentally mature." i agree with you. kids under 10 aren't fully developed, but in what sport do you wait until you are fully developed to start. you also incinuate that at 10, magically full development has occured. also if you are using physical development as a gauge then people who past 18-20 have started degrading their physical and mental abilities. they probably need to be kicked out of OBRA too, say we start around 28. i remember seeing a one armed guy racing at King's Valley, let's kick him out.

as far as mental maturity, if you use that as a light post to gauge whether one should be allowed to race, then you will need to start kicking adults out of OBRA immediately. i have seen many, many embarrassing incidents involving adults. at the Bear Springs race an adult man shoved my son out of the way on the first climb so he could move from 37th into 36th position. of course my son passed him 1/2 mile later and never saw him again. what kind of maturity is that?

bike racing is for kids. just like Trix.

i say if you don't want to race with kids, don't race with kids. upgrade to a cat 1 and race. oh wait....aren't kids winning the cat 1,2 races?

________________________________
From: Rick C Johnson
To: Henry Abel
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:17:26 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tandem Racers: Youths on Tandems?

A few thoughts on the question of what age and under what circumstances
having children under the age of ten participate in tandem races.

It has been suggested that this question be debated and decided solely
by the tandem racers. Since OBRA is not primarily, nor even
significantly, a tandem racing organization I think this request might
be reaching a bit too far. A parallel argument could be made that
bicycle riders should be the only ones to craft traffic laws affecting
bicycles. I'd certainly love that - we'd probably quickly abolish
onerous regulations like having to stop at intersections. But, as the
mix of traffic is made up of more than bicyclists we have to strike a
balance with other road users.
So it is with our racing organization. It is made up of more than tandem
racers and the rules we operate under affect things that are both easy
to quantify (insurance costs, event participation) and those that are
more difficult (public perception, encouragement of new riders). So,
with that in mind I wish to raise two issues for your consideration.

One argument in favor of allowing youths in tandem races goes along the
lines that anything that brings new riders into the fold is good. On the
surface this seems a very admirable position. But what I haven't seen is
any evidence that proves having riders under the age of ten racing on
the back of a tandem with an adult conclusively results in a long term
involvement with cycling. So far I have heard only anecdotes pointing to
one case or another. I don't believe it is a stretch to think that there
are cases where a child was likewise frightened into avoiding cycling
because of a bad experience. That is precisely the reason why issues
such as these are studied in a controlled manner. So, I'd appreciate
someone referencing a study that there is some quantifiable evidence
that having youths in tandem races results in more future riders. Until
that time claims of such benefit remain suspect.

The second issue is more basic. It is a question of appropriateness.
Consider that children under ten years of age are not fully developed
physically, nor are they are not mentally mature. Therefore they are
both more vulnerable to injury and lack a grasp of the meaning of risk.
In that context placing them on the back of a tandem in a racing
situation makes me at the very least uncomfortable. Youths racing
against each other will achieve a limited velocity and in the event of a
mishap the mass of the riders will be similar. In contrast a youth
racing on board a tandem with an adult will achieve a much higher speed
and in the event of a mishap could be colliding with people considerably
more massive. We all know which of the two parties will bear the brunt
of the injuries - think large SUV versus little economy car.

In closing I ask that everyone consider the benefits, which are yet to
be proved, against the actual risk. I believe that we can encourage
youth participation in cycling without resorting to demonstrating to
them that they can only participate as an appendage of an adult.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

Henry Abel wrote:

>Dear Tandem Racers,
>
>Hi. We really need your input on this one. Preferably right now...
>
>
>For those of you who have been following the OBRA chat list, or who raced your tandem at Rehearsal Road Race on Saturday - something has come up.
>
>As I understand it - juniors have to be ten and older to race at OBRA events. I think this was in response to kids under the age of ten racing on single bikes on open courses with adults.
>
>Saturday we had 4 tandems (of the 13) that had kids under the age of ten on the back. Those tandems almost did not get to race. I think that this age ten and up rule - that was probably put in place with kids on single bikes in mind - did not take into account that there are a lot of kids under the age of ten that race on the back of tandems.
>
>Think of all of the mtb races, criteriums, TT's, and road races that you've done where there was a kid under the age of ten on a tandem. It's been very common up til now, and now we have to suggest a rule that would clarify whether or not this can continue.
>
>Personally, I love having the kids come to these races on the backs of tandems - and certain events like Co-Motion stage race (think C-class) depend on these small stokers.
>
>Regardless of what I think - the most important part is to have the TANDEM racers decide on the rules that affect the tandem class, and not open it up to all of OBRA to decide what's best for us. Personally, if you're not racing your tandem in an OBRA event I'm not interested in having you set the rules for a race that you don't participate in. I'm not interested in hashing this out with every concerned non-tandem-racing-parent on the OBRA list.
>
>
>I would like to tally your feedback and compile it for OBRA so that we can suggest what it is that the tandem racers would like for future events.
>
>This could affect the very next tandem race that you do, so it's important to take a moment and give me your thoughts.
>
>If you don't want kids racing in the adult road races now is the time to speak up about it.
>
>Here's what's being suggested - but this is just to get you thinking about what YOU want to see at the next tandem race you show up at...
>
>Personally I like "Youth is defined as riders under the age of 10. Youth riders may enter only youth races and may not be mixed with other categories except as stokers on tandems at the discretion of the race promoter."
>
>I liked that tag-alongs would not be considered a tandem in mass-start races and could only be used in a TT, and then it's still at the discretion of the race promoter. (This might keep tag-alongs out of the Co-Motion C road race, but would still be OK in any time trial).
>
>I think a minimum age might be a good idea for stokers - age 5 and up, for example.
>
>I don't think any requirements should be put on tandem captains with kids. If the captains had to be cat 3 of higher that would rule out most of us - myself (being a cat 4) included. And most of the kids racing the C class at Co-Motion are racing with beginning dads.
>
>Statistically the tandem class is the safest class in all of OBRA racing (except maybe the fast masters) - so I'm not worried about youth stokers. And I think the promoter has the right to state that lapped tandems (of any age) can be pulled in a criterium for safety reasons.
>
>Thoughts?? Kids OK? Kids not OK?
>
>PLEASE DON'T POST ON THE OBRA LIST - JUST EMAIL ME DIRECTLY.
>
>I will compile every one of your comments without my own personal bias and share with OBRA.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>Henry Abel
>henry@webcyclery.com
>NWTandemRacing.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick C Johnson

A few thoughts on the question of what age and under what circumstances
having children under the age of ten participate in tandem races.

It has been suggested that this question be debated and decided solely
by the tandem racers. Since OBRA is not primarily, nor even
significantly, a tandem racing organization I think this request might
be reaching a bit too far. A parallel argument could be made that
bicycle riders should be the only ones to craft traffic laws affecting
bicycles. I'd certainly love that - we'd probably quickly abolish
onerous regulations like having to stop at intersections. But, as the
mix of traffic is made up of more than bicyclists we have to strike a
balance with other road users.
So it is with our racing organization. It is made up of more than tandem
racers and the rules we operate under affect things that are both easy
to quantify (insurance costs, event participation) and those that are
more difficult (public perception, encouragement of new riders). So,
with that in mind I wish to raise two issues for your consideration.

One argument in favor of allowing youths in tandem races goes along the
lines that anything that brings new riders into the fold is good. On the
surface this seems a very admirable position. But what I haven't seen is
any evidence that proves having riders under the age of ten racing on
the back of a tandem with an adult conclusively results in a long term
involvement with cycling. So far I have heard only anecdotes pointing to
one case or another. I don't believe it is a stretch to think that there
are cases where a child was likewise frightened into avoiding cycling
because of a bad experience. That is precisely the reason why issues
such as these are studied in a controlled manner. So, I'd appreciate
someone referencing a study that there is some quantifiable evidence
that having youths in tandem races results in more future riders. Until
that time claims of such benefit remain suspect.

The second issue is more basic. It is a question of appropriateness.
Consider that children under ten years of age are not fully developed
physically, nor are they are not mentally mature. Therefore they are
both more vulnerable to injury and lack a grasp of the meaning of risk.
In that context placing them on the back of a tandem in a racing
situation makes me at the very least uncomfortable. Youths racing
against each other will achieve a limited velocity and in the event of a
mishap the mass of the riders will be similar. In contrast a youth
racing on board a tandem with an adult will achieve a much higher speed
and in the event of a mishap could be colliding with people considerably
more massive. We all know which of the two parties will bear the brunt
of the injuries - think large SUV versus little economy car.

In closing I ask that everyone consider the benefits, which are yet to
be proved, against the actual risk. I believe that we can encourage
youth participation in cycling without resorting to demonstrating to
them that they can only participate as an appendage of an adult.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

Henry Abel wrote:

>Dear Tandem Racers,
>
>Hi. We really need your input on this one. Preferably right now...
>
>
>For those of you who have been following the OBRA chat list, or who raced your tandem at Rehearsal Road Race on Saturday - something has come up.
>
>As I understand it - juniors have to be ten and older to race at OBRA events. I think this was in response to kids under the age of ten racing on single bikes on open courses with adults.
>
>Saturday we had 4 tandems (of the 13) that had kids under the age of ten on the back. Those tandems almost did not get to race. I think that this age ten and up rule - that was probably put in place with kids on single bikes in mind - did not take into account that there are a lot of kids under the age of ten that race on the back of tandems.
>
>Think of all of the mtb races, criteriums, TT's, and road races that you've done where there was a kid under the age of ten on a tandem. It's been very common up til now, and now we have to suggest a rule that would clarify whether or not this can continue.
>
>Personally, I love having the kids come to these races on the backs of tandems - and certain events like Co-Motion stage race (think C-class) depend on these small stokers.
>
>Regardless of what I think - the most important part is to have the TANDEM racers decide on the rules that affect the tandem class, and not open it up to all of OBRA to decide what's best for us. Personally, if you're not racing your tandem in an OBRA event I'm not interested in having you set the rules for a race that you don't participate in. I'm not interested in hashing this out with every concerned non-tandem-racing-parent on the OBRA list.
>
>
>I would like to tally your feedback and compile it for OBRA so that we can suggest what it is that the tandem racers would like for future events.
>
>This could affect the very next tandem race that you do, so it's important to take a moment and give me your thoughts.
>
>If you don't want kids racing in the adult road races now is the time to speak up about it.
>
>Here's what's being suggested - but this is just to get you thinking about what YOU want to see at the next tandem race you show up at...
>
>Personally I like "Youth is defined as riders under the age of 10. Youth riders may enter only youth races and may not be mixed with other categories except as stokers on tandems at the discretion of the race promoter."
>
>I liked that tag-alongs would not be considered a tandem in mass-start races and could only be used in a TT, and then it's still at the discretion of the race promoter. (This might keep tag-alongs out of the Co-Motion C road race, but would still be OK in any time trial).
>
>I think a minimum age might be a good idea for stokers - age 5 and up, for example.
>
>I don't think any requirements should be put on tandem captains with kids. If the captains had to be cat 3 of higher that would rule out most of us - myself (being a cat 4) included. And most of the kids racing the C class at Co-Motion are racing with beginning dads.
>
>Statistically the tandem class is the safest class in all of OBRA racing (except maybe the fast masters) - so I'm not worried about youth stokers. And I think the promoter has the right to state that lapped tandems (of any age) can be pulled in a criterium for safety reasons.
>
>Thoughts?? Kids OK? Kids not OK?
>
>PLEASE DON'T POST ON THE OBRA LIST - JUST EMAIL ME DIRECTLY.
>
>I will compile every one of your comments without my own personal bias and share with OBRA.
>
>Thanks!
>
>
>Henry Abel
>henry@webcyclery.com
>NWTandemRacing.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>