dacrizzow

always do what anyone tells you, no matter how stupid it sounds. unless someone tells you the opposite then do that. if a maga zine article says it differently then do it their way unless a major pro rider does it different then listen to them. and uner no circuistances whatsoever should you question any advice ever. oh yeah, and only buy from local, independent bike shops no matter what your financial situaition or if you've had bad experiences from a shop before.

David Hart

The on suggestion of asking a pro or cat 1 or 2 still isn't the best advice.
I have seen some questionable riding practices by them. Not saying I am
better but I got my tips from a coach. I think senior track riders (men and
women) may offer the best advice on how to ride your bike.

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Darren Smith wrote:

> I didnt race last night but I did last week and someone (I assume one of
> the mentor's) was riding through the pack telling people, including me, to
> get in the drops and to loosen my arms. I was on the hoods with my elbows
> bent substantiallyand I felt a lot more confident in my abilities in that
> position than when I moved to the drops. I was not uncomfortable in the
> drops but I felt that my control was diminished.
>
> Having said that, isnt it personal preference as to how you ride in a group
> meaning where that person feels the most confident in handling their bike?
> I understand the need for arms to be a little bent and loose but if you can
> do that on the hoods or in the drops, what difference does it make?
>
> Im a rookie to road racing but not to riding in a group so this is for my
> own curiosity more than anything.
>
> Darren Smith
>
>
>
> Darren A Smith, DC, DACBSP
> Diplomate American Chiropractic Board of Sports Physicians
>
> Lacamas Chiropractic & Sports Medicine
> 2930 NW Ivy Lane
> Camas WA 98607
> (360) 635-2525
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
david hart

Garcia

Brian,

Sorry I offended you, which was never my intent. Again, I'm very sorry for that and please forgive me...my bad.

However, I've got a question based on your comments. What have you done to "serve to educate", and "maybe grow the sport a little and not alienate folks new to OBRA and racing"? I'm just asking, because maybe I should be doing as much as you to "not alienate folks new to OBRA and racing". Any pointers for me? Please let me know how I can help more, it means a lot to me.

Oh ya, let's see if "scathing sarcasm serves to educate" you.

Cheers! back at ya,

Garcia

BTY, maybe those of you in OBRA land can help me with what more I can do to help "maybe grow the sport a little and not alienate folks new to OBRA and racing", because I sure want to help.

________________________________
From: Brian Johnson
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 12:18:55 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

If you're onto something new, you should contact some of the pro riders
and tell them "I'm a novice cat 5 at the P.I.R. Monday race and I have a
new cycling position you should try- in the drops with your arms locked
straight...."

Since when does scathing sarcasm serve to educate? If you're trying to help out novice racers, maybe grow the sport a little, and not alienate folks new to OBRA and racing, I think it would be best to maintain a gracious tone.

Otherwise, if you're aiming for entertainment, BikesnobNYC you are not.

Cheers!

* * *
My father asks : "Do you live here or ride bikes?"

http://liveorridebikes.blogspot.com

David Auker

Chris gives good advice: practice being low in the drops.  I'd like to
add: "variety of position" is necessary for efficiency (especially when
the distance is, oh, more than 10 miles on the velodrome.  "Comfort" is
not had in a static position.   For aerodynamics, I wouldn't be
surprised to see "arms-out, on the hood" to be very close to
drops-riding.   We are talking about PIR, so yes, a lot of time
should be spent in the drops, one of the many positions in which you
feel secure.



David



Chris Swan wrote:

> Ride in your drops, with your elbows bent.  A LOT!!  Think about
it a lot and work on it while your riding on your own to get used to it
so that it becomes second nature.

>

> Ive been teaching the intro to racing clinics for the last couple
of weeks before PIR, and if you've been to one, you already know that I
say to ride in your drops with your elbows bent at least every two
minutes.

>

> I also advocate for training in your drops whenever you can to
make it more familiar to you and so that you are relaxed while riding
in the drops.

>

> As for being "comfortable" in your drops, just becuase your
comfortable doesnt mean its too high.  Im very comfortable in the
drops, and I dont need to, nor is it really possible to go lower.  It
may be in some cases, and a lot of people can go lower dont get me
wrong, but you should also work on becoming flexible enough that you
are comfortable and relaxed while in your drops.  It is important to be
comfortable enough in your drops/elbows bent that you can handle your
bike well, breath and respond to the race.  If your not comfortable
while in your drops, then work on core strength, stretching/flexability
and generally riding around in your drops.  The more you ride in your
drops with your elbows bent the better, for you and your fellow racers.


>

> As for shifting/breaking, the levers we have today are adjustable
enough that you should be able to reach shifting whether your on the
hoods or in the drops.  If this is not the case, and its difficult to
safely work shifting or breaks while in the drops, I recomend talking
to your mechanic about how to properly set up the reach of the brake,
the position of your hoods on the bars (yes, these are adustable) and
possible different bar configerations if all else fails.

>

> Check out the weekly clinics before monday night PIR:

>

>
http://www.upperechelonfitness.com/blog/1-news/46-intro-to-bike-racing-clinics-mondays-at-pir-now-weekly

>

> Feel free to email me with any questions!

>

> Cheers,

>

> Chris Swan

> Upper Echelon Fitness Coach

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> OBRA mailing list

> obra@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

>

>

>

Chris Swan

Ride in your drops, with your elbows bent. A LOT!! Think about it a lot
and work on it while your riding on your own to get used to it so that it
becomes second nature.

Ive been teaching the intro to racing clinics for the last couple of weeks
before PIR, and if you've been to one, you already know that I say to ride
in your drops with your elbows bent at least every two minutes.

I also advocate for training in your drops whenever you can to make it more
familiar to you and so that you are relaxed while riding in the drops.

As for being "comfortable" in your drops, just becuase your comfortable
doesnt mean its too high. Im very comfortable in the drops, and I dont need
to, nor is it really possible to go lower. It may be in some cases, and a
lot of people can go lower dont get me wrong, but you should also work on
becoming flexible enough that you are comfortable and relaxed while in your
drops. It is important to be comfortable enough in your drops/elbows bent
that you can handle your bike well, breath and respond to the race. If your
not comfortable while in your drops, then work on core strength,
stretching/flexability and generally riding around in your drops. The more
you ride in your drops with your elbows bent the better, for you and your
fellow racers.

As for shifting/breaking, the levers we have today are adjustable enough
that you should be able to reach shifting whether your on the hoods or in
the drops. If this is not the case, and its difficult to safely work
shifting or breaks while in the drops, I recomend talking to your mechanic
about how to properly set up the reach of the brake, the position of your
hoods on the bars (yes, these are adustable) and possible different bar
configerations if all else fails.

Check out the weekly clinics before monday night PIR:

http://www.upperechelonfitness.com/blog/1-news/46-intro-to-bike-racing-clinics-mondays-at-pir-now-weekly

Feel free to email me with any questions!

Cheers,

Chris Swan
Upper Echelon Fitness Coach

Brian Johnson

> If you're onto something new, you should contact some of the pro
> riders
> and tell them "I'm a novice cat 5 at the P.I.R. Monday race and I
> have a
> new cycling position you should try- in the drops with your arms
> locked
> straight...."

Since when does scathing sarcasm serve to educate? If you're trying
to help out novice racers, maybe grow the sport a little, and not
alienate folks new to OBRA and racing, I think it would be best to
maintain a gracious tone.

Otherwise, if you're aiming for entertainment, BikesnobNYC you are not.

Cheers!

* * *
My father asks : "Do you live here or ride bikes?"

http://liveorridebikes.blogspot.com

Garcia

I found sprinting from the top of the bars allows me to see over the pack, and this allows me to pick my line better to a winning finish.
Garcia

BTY, the track isn't that fun. How fun can going in circles be?

________________________________
From: "jboquiren@comcast.net"
To: john
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Darren Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 12:01:58 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

I suggest everyone give track racing a try.
You don't have a choice about racing in the drops but it's also a heck of a lot of fun.

And you will understand why racing in the drops is more advantageous all previous points considered.

Joseph Boquiren

----- Original Message -----
From: "john"
To: "Darren Smith"
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 11:49:31 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

"In drops and bent elbows" is way too specific. So yes Darren you fine.

Look, the main goal is prevent crashes. Relaxed upper body, not pushing too big of gear ( tendency to swerve, especially when starting out racing... ). are all ways to help keep smooth, be predictible, hold a line, and yet be flexible to possible swerving, without amplifying to those behind you, etc. but end goal is still the goal.

my advice:
-work on spin, fast cadence.
-stretch hamstrings. (so you can comfortably maintain an aero position.)
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Darren Smith wrote:

I didnt race last night but I did last week and someone (I assume one of the mentor's) was riding through the pack telling people, including me, to get in the drops and to loosen my arms. I was on the hoods with my elbows bent substantiallyand I felt a lot more confident in my abilities in that position than when I moved to the drops. I was not uncomfortable in the drops but I felt that my control was diminished.

Having said that, isnt it personal preference as to how you ride in a group meaning where that person feels the most confident in handling their bike? I understand the need for arms to be a little bent and loose but if you can do that on the hoods or in the drops, what difference does it make?

Im a rookie to road racing but not to riding in a group so this is for my own curiosity more than anything.

Darren Smith

Darren A Smith, DC, DACBSP
Diplomate American Chiropractic Board of Sports Physicians

Lacamas Chiropractic & Sports Medicine
2930 NW Ivy Lane
Camas WA 98607
(360) 635-2525

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
jms, pe pdx, or
http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________ OBRAmailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

jboquiren@comcast.net

I suggest everyone give track racing a try.
You don't have a choice about racing in the drops but it's also a heck of a lot of fun.

And you will understand why racing in the drops is more advantageous all previous points considered.

Joseph Boquiren

----- Original Message -----
From: "john"
To: "Darren Smith"
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 11:49:31 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

"In drops and bent elbows" is way too specific.  So yes Darren you fine. 
 
Look, the main goal is prevent crashes.  Relaxed upper body, not pushing too big of gear ( tendency to swerve, especially when starting out racing... ).  are all ways to help keep smooth, be predictible, hold a line, and yet be flexible  to possible swerving, without amplifying to those behind you, etc.  but end goal is still the goal.
 
my advice:
-work on spin, fast cadence.
-stretch hamstrings.   (so you can comfortably maintain an aero position.)
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Darren Smith < drdsmith@hotmail.com > wrote:

I didnt race last night but I did last week and someone (I assume one of the mentor's) was riding through the pack telling people, including me, to get in the drops and to loosen my arms.  I was on the hoods with my elbows bent substantiallyand I felt a lot more confident in my abilities in that position than when I moved to the drops.  I was not uncomfortable in the drops but I felt that my control was diminished. 
 
Having said that, isnt it personal preference as to how you ride in a group meaning where that person feels the most confident in handling their bike?  I understand the need for arms to be a little bent and loose but if you can do that on the hoods or in the drops, what difference does it make? 
 
Im a rookie to road racing but not to riding in a group so this is for my own curiosity more than anything.
 
Darren Smith
 

Darren A Smith, DC, DACBSP
Diplomate American Chiropractic Board of Sports Physicians
 
Lacamas Chiropractic & Sports Medicine
2930 NW Ivy Lane
Camas WA 98607
(360) 635-2525

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
jms, pe         pdx, or
http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john

"In drops and bent elbows" is way too specific. So yes Darren you fine.

Look, the main goal is prevent crashes. Relaxed upper body, not pushing too
big of gear ( tendency to swerve, especially when starting out racing...
). are all ways to help keep smooth, be predictible, hold a line, and yet
be flexible to possible swerving, without amplifying to those behind you,
etc. but end goal is still the goal.

my advice:
-work on spin, fast cadence.
-stretch hamstrings. (so you can comfortably maintain an aero position.)
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Darren Smith wrote:

> I didnt race last night but I did last week and someone (I assume one of
> the mentor's) was riding through the pack telling people, including me, to
> get in the drops and to loosen my arms. I was on the hoods with my elbows
> bent substantiallyand I felt a lot more confident in my abilities in that
> position than when I moved to the drops. I was not uncomfortable in the
> drops but I felt that my control was diminished.
>
> Having said that, isnt it personal preference as to how you ride in a group
> meaning where that person feels the most confident in handling their bike?
> I understand the need for arms to be a little bent and loose but if you can
> do that on the hoods or in the drops, what difference does it make?
>
> Im a rookie to road racing but not to riding in a group so this is for my
> own curiosity more than anything.
>
> Darren Smith
>
>
>
> Darren A Smith, DC, DACBSP
> Diplomate American Chiropractic Board of Sports Physicians
>
> Lacamas Chiropractic & Sports Medicine
> 2930 NW Ivy Lane
> Camas WA 98607
> (360) 635-2525
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
jms, pe pdx, or
http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/

Kevin Mansker

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Smith

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:06:55
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Kevin Mansker

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Smith

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:06:55
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Kevin Mansker

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Smith

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:06:55
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Kevin Mansker

K
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Smith

Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:06:55
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Darren Smith

I didnt race last night but I did last week and someone (I assume one of the mentor's) was riding through the pack telling people, including me, to get in the drops and to loosen my arms. I was on the hoods with my elbows bent substantiallyand I felt a lot more confident in my abilities in that position than when I moved to the drops. I was not uncomfortable in the drops but I felt that my control was diminished.

Having said that, isnt it personal preference as to how you ride in a group meaning where that person feels the most confident in handling their bike? I understand the need for arms to be a little bent and loose but if you can do that on the hoods or in the drops, what difference does it make?

Im a rookie to road racing but not to riding in a group so this is for my own curiosity more than anything.

Darren Smith

Darren A Smith, DC, DACBSP
Diplomate American Chiropractic Board of Sports Physicians

Lacamas Chiropractic & Sports Medicine
2930 NW Ivy Lane

Camas WA 98607
(360) 635-2525

Bryan Curry

Great job last night, guys. Compared to last week, there was far less
erratic weaving, less overlapping of wheels, less
coasting/pedaling/coasting because one is too close to then too far from
the guy ahead, less
in-the-drops-arms-staight-and-perpendicular-to-the-ground-backs-propped-
up thing. Some of you should definitely "upgrade" to the 4/5 race.

A tip of the helmet to the guy in his first race ever and who just
started riding last year. I think he's 60+. Hopefully, I'll be able to
do that.

Bryan "Pro-Hinault" Curry
FMCT

David Auker

Riding in the drops was more prevalent in the pre-STI era, as in that
position, you were actually closer to the down-tube shifters. Nowadays,
shifting is probably easier from the hoods, utilizing an easy wrist
action rather than relying primarily on hand motion. Shifting does, of
course, work from the drops...as the race action picks up, you probably
won't sprint with hands on the hoods.

David

STEVEN R HOLLAND wrote:
>
> Erik/Mark,
>
> I think you need to read Mr Curry's post again.
>
> I agree with it 100%.
>
> He states "in the drops for aerodynamics and hoods for more comfort".
This is true.
>
> His point is one of "locked arms" being unsafe. That is true.
>
> On the hoods is more comfortable.......isn't that where we all spend
most of our time?
>
>
>
> He never claims you are more stable in the hoods, just more comfortable.
>
>
>
>
> STEVEN R HOLLAND
> 17203 SE 30TH ST
> VANCOUVER,WA 98683
> C(360) 600-2702
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Erik Voldengen
> To: Bryan Curry
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 3:55:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2
>
> > Got it? In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics. On the hoods
> > for comfort. Elbows bent both times for stability and control.
>
> I very much disagree. If you can't ride in the drops comfortably, get
> your bike fit set up such that you can.
>
> Riding in the drops is safer, especially to the crowd you're addressing.
>
> -Erik
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.56/2162 - Release Date:
06/08/09 06:01:00
>

STEVEN R HOLLAND

Darn it.....I have to disagree again.

Read what he wrote:
Last week was almost as bad as "collarbone night" a few weeks back in
terms of bike control.  Some of you insist on riding in the drops even
though you can't.  I'm not sure why you do it because it's obvious most
of you don't have the flexibility or core strength to maintain that
position for 7 laps.  Most of you are propping yourself up on the bars
which is not good for your bike handling or grabbing your water bottle.
If you're onto something new, you should contact some of the pro riders
and tell them "I'm a novice cat 5 at the P.I.R. Monday race and I have a
new cycling position you should try- in the drops with your arms locked
straight...."
 
Mr Curry's whole point is "locked arms". I do not believe he is saying do not ride in your drops at all, just not with "locked arms".......
 
 

 
STEVEN R HOLLAND
17203 SE 30TH ST
VANCOUVER,WA 98683
C(360) 600-2702

________________________________
From: Erik Voldengen
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 5:17:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

The intended audience was novice road racers.  The point brought
forward was riding in the hoods is your default position in a race,
and the drops are for getting aero.

I do not agree with this, especially for novice racers.  If you tell
your novice racers to race in the hoods, fine.  My team does not, and
we have a lot of young novice racers who have benefited from this.

-Erik

009 at 4:34 PM, STEVEN R HOLLAND wrote:
> Erik/Mark,
>
> I think you need to read Mr Curry's post again.
>
> I agree with it 100%.
>
> He states "in the drops for aerodynamics and hoods for more comfort". This
> is true.
>
> His point is one of "locked arms" being unsafe. That is true.
>
> On the hoods is more comfortable.......isn't that where we all spend most of
> our time?
>
>
>
> He never claims you are more stable in the hoods, just more comfortable.
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Erik Voldengen

The intended audience was novice road racers. The point brought
forward was riding in the hoods is your default position in a race,
and the drops are for getting aero.

I do not agree with this, especially for novice racers. If you tell
your novice racers to race in the hoods, fine. My team does not, and
we have a lot of young novice racers who have benefited from this.

-Erik

009 at 4:34 PM, STEVEN R HOLLAND wrote:
> Erik/Mark,
>
> I think you need to read Mr Curry's post again.
>
> I agree with it 100%.
>
> He states "in the drops for aerodynamics and hoods for more comfort". This
> is true.
>
> His point is one of "locked arms" being unsafe. That is true.
>
> On the hoods is more comfortable.......isn't that where we all spend most of
> our time?
>
>
>
> He never claims you are more stable in the hoods, just more comfortable.
>

STEVEN R HOLLAND

Erik/Mark,

I think you need to read Mr Curry's post again.

I agree with it 100%.

He states "in the drops for aerodynamics and hoods for more comfort". This is true. 

His point is one of "locked arms" being unsafe. That is true.

On the hoods is more comfortable.......isn't that where we all spend most of our time?
 
He never claims you are more stable in the hoods, just more comfortable.

 
STEVEN R HOLLAND
17203 SE 30TH ST
VANCOUVER,WA 98683
C(360) 600-2702

----- Original Message ----
From: Erik Voldengen
To: Bryan Curry
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2009 3:55:49 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

> Got it?  In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics.  On the hoods
> for comfort.  Elbows bent both times for stability and control.

I very much disagree.  If you can't ride in the drops comfortably, get
your bike fit set up such that you can.

Riding in the drops is safer, especially to the crowd you're addressing.

-Erik
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john

Keep in mind, just because someone's arms are straight doesn't mean they are
locked. If I am riding casual, i will often have straight elbows (but maybe
bent wrists, etc), If I am riding fast then aerodynamics are more important
and i try to stay down, and thus the reason for bent elbows in your array of
linked pics. [Needless to say flexible hamstrings are super important for
cycling].

I think your point, which is important, is one should have a relaxed upper
body. I will sometimes shake my elbows to help remind myself, especially
while cornering. But if I am sitting in the pack relaxed, my elbows may be
straight (not necessesarily locked..).

Another culprit, (IMO more so than anything else), for causing crashing,
besides not staying relaxed, is pushing too big of a gear, and not spinning
. A smooth fast spin is a good goal. Or at least a nice supple pedal
stroke. Ok yes there are many who can push a big gear smoothly, but
typically it takes some years to develop that. In the meantime, SPIN !

and keep your head up ! And just no sudden moves. always assume someone is
overlapped on your rear wheel. And just really think about the possible
consequences... safety is in your hands, literally.

I don't think height of center of gravity is an issue with a bicycle
especially when comparing in-drops versus not.... However, in-the-drops
means more weight on front wheel = better cornering and less to no slide
outs. And also I think getting in the drops usually does help with focus.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:08 PM, KO Kevin wrote:

> I agree with Bryan. If you can ride all day long in the drops, I suggest
> that your bars aren't low enough. Riding in the drops should be a choice of
> better aerodynamics over comfort. You should be able to sustain an effort in
> the dropped position, but it shouldn't be too comfortable. If it is, try
> lowering your bars to give yourself an even more aerodynamic option.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Erik Voldengen
> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:56 PM
> To: Bryan Curry
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2
>
> > Got it? In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics. On the hoods
> > for comfort. Elbows bent both times for stability and control.
>
> I very much disagree. If you can't ride in the drops comfortably, get your
> bike fit set up such that you can.
>
> Riding in the drops is safer, especially to the crowd you're addressing.
>
> -Erik
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>

--
jms, pe pdx, or
http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/

Erik Voldengen

Yes, let's compare novice riders at PIR to guys in the Tour. Good.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Michael O'Hair wrote:
> And how many riders do the Tour De France in the drops all day?
>

Michael O'Hair

And how many riders do the Tour De France in the drops all day?

----- Original Message -----
From: KO Kevin
To: 'Erik Voldengen' ; Bryan Curry
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

I agree with Bryan. If you can ride all day long in the drops, I suggest that your bars aren't low enough. Riding in the drops should be a choice of better aerodynamics over comfort. You should be able to sustain an effort in the dropped position, but it shouldn't be too comfortable. If it is, try lowering your bars to give yourself an even more aerodynamic option.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Erik Voldengen
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:56 PM
To: Bryan Curry
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

> Got it? In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics. On the hoods
> for comfort. Elbows bent both times for stability and control.

I very much disagree. If you can't ride in the drops comfortably, get your bike fit set up such that you can.

Riding in the drops is safer, especially to the crowd you're addressing.

-Erik
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

KO Kevin

I agree with Bryan. If you can ride all day long in the drops, I suggest that your bars aren't low enough. Riding in the drops should be a choice of better aerodynamics over comfort. You should be able to sustain an effort in the dropped position, but it shouldn't be too comfortable. If it is, try lowering your bars to give yourself an even more aerodynamic option.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Erik Voldengen
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:56 PM
To: Bryan Curry
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2

> Got it?  In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics.  On the hoods
> for comfort.  Elbows bent both times for stability and control.

I very much disagree. If you can't ride in the drops comfortably, get your bike fit set up such that you can.

Riding in the drops is safer, especially to the crowd you're addressing.

-Erik
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mark J. Ginsberg

I am 100% with Eric here.
on drops also = lower center of gravity, and better control of bike.

All my coaches in the  1980s were fans of being in your drops for the first few miles when everyone was nervous, and the last few miles when everyone was crazy.

and yes, if you can not use your drops, either get a bike that fits, or cut off all that excess tubing you are hauling around and hit the UCI weight limit! :-)

Mark

Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC

Attorneys At Law

1216 SE Belmont St.

Portland, OR 97214

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com

--- On Mon, 6/8/09, Erik Voldengen wrote:

From: Erik Voldengen
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tip for PIR Novice Men Part 2
To: "Bryan Curry"
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Monday, June 8, 2009, 3:55 PM

> Got it?  In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics.  On the hoods
> for comfort.  Elbows bent both times for stability and control.

I very much disagree.  If you can't ride in the drops comfortably, get
your bike fit set up such that you can.

Riding in the drops is safer, especially to the crowd you're addressing.

-Erik
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Erik Voldengen

> Got it?  In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics.  On the hoods
> for comfort.  Elbows bent both times for stability and control.

I very much disagree. If you can't ride in the drops comfortably, get
your bike fit set up such that you can.

Riding in the drops is safer, especially to the crowd you're addressing.

-Erik

Eric Aleskus

When I first started out, a guy in my race at PIR (a 4/5 race) asked
my why I wasn't on the drops and said it was more aero and lightly
push my bars. This was a few years ago.

Eric

On Jun 8, 2009, at 14:18, joe cipale wrote:

> Bryan,
>
> Nice writeup and a worthwhile attempt. Sadly, most folks just dont
> get it. :(
>
> Joe
>
> On Monday 08 June 2009 13:47, Bryan Curry wrote:
>> Guys, what did I say about holding the handlebars with your arms
>> locked
>> straight? Read this for a refresher-
>> http://app.obra.org/posts/obra/show/53757
>>
>> Let me add on to that.
>>
>> Last week was almost as bad as "collarbone night" a few weeks back in
>> terms of bike control. Some of you insist on riding in the drops
>> even
>> though you can't. I'm not sure why you do it because it's obvious
>> most
>> of you don't have the flexibility or core strength to maintain that
>> position for 7 laps. Most of you are propping yourself up on the
>> bars
>> which is not good for your bike handling or grabbing your water
>> bottle.
>> If you're onto something new, you should contact some of the pro
>> riders
>> and tell them "I'm a novice cat 5 at the P.I.R. Monday race and I
>> have a
>> new cycling position you should try- in the drops with your arms
>> locked
>> straight...."
>>
>> Now, look at these photos of racers with their hands on the hoods,
>> their
>> elbows bent, their backs 30 to 45 degrees from the horizontal-
>> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/pn09/pn09st03-rabo.jpg
>> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/classic09/classic-ocana.jpg
>> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/cali09/atoc09st01dp-laclimb
>> .jpg
>> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/classic09/tdf64-anquetil.jp
>> g
>> That's how you should have your hands and elbows for most of a race
>> if
>> you're in the pack. You can look around easily and it's easier on
>> your
>> back and neck.
>>
>> Now check these "In the drops" photos.
>> First, Henk Lubberding with a flat back and bent elbows for stringing
>> out the pack, a breakaway situation, or chasing-
>> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/misc09/old-lubber.jpg
>>
>> Tom Boonen's sprinting position.
>> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/cali09/atoc09st05rp-150m.jp
>> g
>> He definitely does not ride an entire race in this position. He
>> has his
>> hands in the drops and bent his elbows for more stability, control,
>> and
>> aerodynamics.
>>
>> Even Sean Kelly, notorious for a poor bike fit, has bent elbows-
>> http://grahamwatson.com/dublin/kelly/image2.html
>>
>> Got it? In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics. On the hoods
>> for comfort. Elbows bent both times for stability and control.
>>
>> See you tonight. I'll be the guy that touched your elbow with my
>> pinkie
>> just to see how far you'll swerve.
>>
>> Bryan Curry
>> FMCT
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

joe cipale

Bryan,

Nice writeup and a worthwhile attempt. Sadly, most folks just dont get it. :(

Joe

On Monday 08 June 2009 13:47, Bryan Curry wrote:
> Guys, what did I say about holding the handlebars with your arms locked
> straight? Read this for a refresher-
> http://app.obra.org/posts/obra/show/53757
>
> Let me add on to that.
>
> Last week was almost as bad as "collarbone night" a few weeks back in
> terms of bike control. Some of you insist on riding in the drops even
> though you can't. I'm not sure why you do it because it's obvious most
> of you don't have the flexibility or core strength to maintain that
> position for 7 laps. Most of you are propping yourself up on the bars
> which is not good for your bike handling or grabbing your water bottle.
> If you're onto something new, you should contact some of the pro riders
> and tell them "I'm a novice cat 5 at the P.I.R. Monday race and I have a
> new cycling position you should try- in the drops with your arms locked
> straight...."
>
> Now, look at these photos of racers with their hands on the hoods, their
> elbows bent, their backs 30 to 45 degrees from the horizontal-
> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/pn09/pn09st03-rabo.jpg
> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/classic09/classic-ocana.jpg
> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/cali09/atoc09st01dp-laclimb
> .jpg
> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/classic09/tdf64-anquetil.jp
> g
> That's how you should have your hands and elbows for most of a race if
> you're in the pack. You can look around easily and it's easier on your
> back and neck.
>
> Now check these "In the drops" photos.
> First, Henk Lubberding with a flat back and bent elbows for stringing
> out the pack, a breakaway situation, or chasing-
> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/misc09/old-lubber.jpg
>
> Tom Boonen's sprinting position.
> http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/cali09/atoc09st05rp-150m.jp
> g
> He definitely does not ride an entire race in this position. He has his
> hands in the drops and bent his elbows for more stability, control, and
> aerodynamics.
>
> Even Sean Kelly, notorious for a poor bike fit, has bent elbows-
> http://grahamwatson.com/dublin/kelly/image2.html
>
> Got it? In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics. On the hoods
> for comfort. Elbows bent both times for stability and control.
>
> See you tonight. I'll be the guy that touched your elbow with my pinkie
> just to see how far you'll swerve.
>
> Bryan Curry
> FMCT
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Bryan Curry

Guys, what did I say about holding the handlebars with your arms locked
straight? Read this for a refresher-
http://app.obra.org/posts/obra/show/53757

Let me add on to that.

Last week was almost as bad as "collarbone night" a few weeks back in
terms of bike control. Some of you insist on riding in the drops even
though you can't. I'm not sure why you do it because it's obvious most
of you don't have the flexibility or core strength to maintain that
position for 7 laps. Most of you are propping yourself up on the bars
which is not good for your bike handling or grabbing your water bottle.
If you're onto something new, you should contact some of the pro riders
and tell them "I'm a novice cat 5 at the P.I.R. Monday race and I have a
new cycling position you should try- in the drops with your arms locked
straight...."

Now, look at these photos of racers with their hands on the hoods, their
elbows bent, their backs 30 to 45 degrees from the horizontal-
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/pn09/pn09st03-rabo.jpg
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/classic09/classic-ocana.jpg
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/cali09/atoc09st01dp-laclimb
.jpg
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/classic09/tdf64-anquetil.jp
g
That's how you should have your hands and elbows for most of a race if
you're in the pack. You can look around easily and it's easier on your
back and neck.

Now check these "In the drops" photos.
First, Henk Lubberding with a flat back and bent elbows for stringing
out the pack, a breakaway situation, or chasing-
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/misc09/old-lubber.jpg

Tom Boonen's sprinting position.
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races09/cali09/atoc09st05rp-150m.jp
g
He definitely does not ride an entire race in this position. He has his
hands in the drops and bent his elbows for more stability, control, and
aerodynamics.

Even Sean Kelly, notorious for a poor bike fit, has bent elbows-
http://grahamwatson.com/dublin/kelly/image2.html

Got it? In the drops means flat back for aerodynamics. On the hoods
for comfort. Elbows bent both times for stability and control.

See you tonight. I'll be the guy that touched your elbow with my pinkie
just to see how far you'll swerve.

Bryan Curry
FMCT