Jorgensen's
I don't want to belabor the point too much, but I have respect both David's and Erik's viewpoints, and give a parent's point of view here. It's great if you can always buy new stuff from your LBS, make local habit, save the earth, yada yada yada. I certainly support everyone's ability to do what suits them, their philosophical/political leanings, and wallet. However, the reality is that cycling as a sport is a rich person's sport. Good new bike stuff is expensive and I don't care how many lifetime tune-ups I get for a $1,500 bike, it's still $1,500. Pick up any bike magazine and it's geared towards people who spend money. That's capitalism folks. The way our part of the world works.
However, those magazines are clearly not targeting my particular demographic. There's no way a family of five in my case can have a complete cycling stable of bikes and parts for everyone without being really wealthy (we're not) or using every available resource to buy used equipment and mix and match components as we need to. Maybe adults can buy new stuff that will last awhile, but kids grow and that always presents problems. There's only so much equipment you can pass down in a family. Fortunately I have some mechanical ability to be able to tune and work on bikes. I've also been lucky to have a couple of sons that have been able to do pretty well racing in Oregon with basically no team or sponsorships for the last 10+ years. Except for the new Schwinn Frontier AL that my son won in a Hutch's raffle in '97?, all their racing in road, TT, XC, DH, and CX (sorry no velodrome in Bend or they'd do that too) has all come on well-used equipment via multiple outlets. They've had remarkably few equipment failures in races, maybe a flat tire or two, broken chain, etc. No stem, bar, or derailleur failures, no broken frames, broken forks, etc. Probably due more to the fact of their light weight and they don't abuse their bikes. Bottom line, different strokes for different folks. If you don't look down on my son for having an outdated bike we got from an online police auction, I guarantee you that he won't make fun of you when he blows past you on your $3,000 carbon bike at Pickett's Charge.
Steve Jorgensen
----- Original Message -----
From: david baker
To: Erik Long ; sarah.s.tisdale@gmail.com ; Obra
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The cost of buying second-hand (from the Jury)
I don't think buying used stuff is "being cheap". I think buying and selling used stuff is a very good thing to do.
If I am no longer using some bike or bike part what else would be better, throwing it away? I am mostly looking at this from an environmental standpoint. I am sure some items need to be recycled like rims that are worn, frames that are cracked, etc. but most of the used stuff being sold is good stuff. Re-using that stuff makes sense on so many levels.
We already throw so much away and buy so much newly manufactured stuff in this sport. We upgrade constantly, higher performance, trying to save a few grams, get a little more aero. I am guilty of this stuff myself. I see people who buy and sell used stuff as people to look up too.
For the most part when they do buy something faulty they may have a bike shop repair it or the may get a new one at a bike shop, but at least they tried to not waste.
----- Original Message -----
From: Erik Long
To: sarah.s.tisdale@gmail.com ; Obra
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:36 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] The cost of buying second-hand (from the Jury)
Evan and Dan's issue is big, round, shiny example of how buying your crap second-hand catches up with you. I realize the need to save money. I realize that we all want to ride a decent bike without breaking the bank. I have bought many used parts and such throughout my life.
With that said, BICYCLE DEALERS EXIST FOR MANY REASONS. Warranties are one of them. Frames break. Wheels crack. Bike shops take care of things like that for cheap or free on bikes under warranty. They also tend to only sell product that they can back, which is something that no private party can be expected to do.
I know that bikes, frames, wheels, and various other parts that I sell can be found on craigslist and frequently here on the OBRA list - and cheap, too (I've been tempted a few times myself). But the seller is usually not the industry professional that you'd talk to at an IBD, and usually isn't fully aware of the condition of his own equipment. I do bike repair for a living. I've seen bikes bought with cracked rims, ovalized headtubes, wheels up to 6mm off-dish, and even cracks in the frame that the previous owner simply didn't know about. It's not their fault. When bikes aren't your line of work, you can't be expected to spot every detail. There lies the risk of buying second-hand. Being cheap can be expensive.
From a professional point of view, it sounds to me like the frame itself has a defect. This is the responsibility of the manufacturer WHEN YOU'VE PURCHASED THE BIKE FROM THE MANUFACTURER OR AUTHORISED DEALER. But the frame was not bought from a dealer. Dan can't really be held responsible as he did not build the frame. The breakage isn't really Evan's "fault" because he was using the frame the way it was intended. However as the legal owner of a bike with zero warranty, Evan is solely liable and it is his responsibility to replace or repair his own frame. If evan had opened his wallet for a frame at bike shop and had it break, he'd have a replacement on the way by now, free of charge.
Bike shops are there to help you, not to screw you. The profit they actually make is pretty pathetic for all the time, work, and experience required to do it right (I could easily double my income if I changed my line of work). It truly is all about putting someone on a great bike that they can feel good about.
-Erik
> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:11:29 -0700
> From: sarah.s.tisdale@gmail.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Jury of peers needed
>
> This seems like a very dicey way to settle a dispute. Here's my opinion.
>
> If Evan, after finding out about the extra work required, asked to
> cancel the exchange within ~30 days and before seriously riding the
> frame, I'd side with him.
>
> But since Evan had it for "a few months" and rode the frame
> "~200miles", I'm inclined to side with Dan.
>
> Still, its a little grey and $100 is *fairly* small.
>
> I vote for "do whatever results in fewest hard feelings": Split it
> $50/$50. Evan eats $50 of the cost. Dan gives $50 to Evan. Seems
> the best way to get past any bad feelings.
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Ron and Dorothy
> Strasser wrote:
> > Good post Chriss. I also think Dan should be talking to the person who gave
> > him frame "with the understanding that it was a rideable frame" about what
> > that was all about. Sounds like that was NOT the case at all. Might have
> > been an honest lack of knowledge about this frame. The story (facts left
> > our or added) can change as it passes from one person to the next. I do
> > hope Dan and Evan can work this out in a manner that does not get nasty.
> > There are more important things in life than bike stuff, including finding
> > ways to keep your stress levels low.
> > Good luck you two. I am sure you will receive even more "verdicts" from
> > your peers.
> > ron
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "chriss"
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:04 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Jury of peers needed
> >
> >
> >> No real side here but hey a debate is a debate. As someone who has had to
> >> warranty a frame or two that i've sold I am wondering what Dan would do if
> >> there was a roll reversal here?
> >>
> >>
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> >
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