Mike Murray

I have said for years that the solution is lead and follow vehicles for
every field just like at most road races.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Sarah Tisdale
Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 11:02 PM
To: scottjones007@gmail.com
Cc: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Monday Night PIR Thoughts

In my experience, we're more likely to get "buzzed" when we're
neutralizing on the inside. This seems logical - its simply a longer
line (most of the time at PIR) to ride outside and give us a lot of
room while overtaking.

Of course, since the inside line is (most of the time) shorter, we're
usually riding the inside line ourselves. If we don't hear the
overtaking group until they're on us, there's no time to move outside.
This is why we often end up neutralizing on the inside.

Maybe a solution would be to somehow give the group being overtaken
better notice so they can more reliably get to the outside of the
track. At the west end of the track, we can usually look over our
shoulder and see a group coming. It's harder on the back straight and
turns 11&12.

Sarah

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 9:20 PM, joe cipale wrote:
>> > ------------------------------
>> > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:52:33 -0700
>> > From: hagenkt@mac.com
>> > To: scottjones007@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Monday Night PIR Thoughts
>> >
>> >
>> > Scott,
>> >
>> > Well put.  I think you are very clear at the start.  But as Patton
said,
>> > no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.  Maybe it wasn’t
>> > Patton.
>> >
>> > Anyway,
>> >
>> > Here’s what I see:
>> >
>> >
>> >    1. The group being overtaken doesn’t seem to hear the overtaking
group
>> >    until the group behind is right on top of the group ahead.  This is
>> >    especially true when it’s only a few riders doing the overtaking.
 So
>> > when you yell “Stay right” or whatever, you’re probably already
>> > overtaking on the left and the hope that the group being overtaken all
>> > does the right thing is often a pipe dream at best.
>> >    2. There are too many egos involved on both sides.  There, I said
it.
>> >    3. I was passing a women’s group a few weeks ago and when I yelled
“on
>> >    your left” I got a chorus of “we’re in our last lap” replies.  Is
this
>> > true? If a group being overtaken is in their last lap (this was on the
>> > back wall), they don’t need to neutralize?
>> >
>> >
>> > Anyway, I don’t know an easy solution here.  I raced Pacific Raceways
in
>> > Seattle two weeks ago and we had the same issue.  In fact,  I was in a
>> > masters break and the 1-2 guys repeatedly failed to neutralized when we
>> > passed them.  Again and again.
>> >
>> > Karsten
>> >
>> >
>> > On 7/9/09 3:43 PM, "Scott Jones" wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > The last few weeks have had some hairy incidents at Monday Night PIR
when
>> > it comes to neutralizing/overtaking other groups. I tried to explain
this
>> > last night and got some positive and negative feedback. I am writing
this
>> > message for several reasons, but mostly for rider feedback. As a racer
>> > myself, I know that things out on the road can be perceived one way by
>> > one person and another way by others. I'm going to lay a few things out
>> > for you and would enjoy your feedback.
>> >
>> > First, this week when I asked the men's fields to give the other
groups,
>> > especially the ladies, plenty of room and you guys tried to laugh it
off
>> > as no big deal, that wasn't very sportsman like. I got another report
of
>> > it happening last night, not cool guys! Is there really this big of an
>> > issue to give another group room on the road? PIR has a surface that is
>> > well over 20 feet wide in all areas, so why do you need to buzz another
>> > group when overtaking? I realize that things happen on the road, people
>> > can be all over the place, groups can be wide, moving around,
attacking,
>> > etc. and I can't see the whole track, but after last week when the
>> > 1/2/3's decided to literally buzz the women that were neutralized and
>> > going at least 15mph slower than you while hugging the concrete wall,
>> > *directly in front of the officials*, your word on giving them room
where
>> > I can't see you lacks credibility. Sorry guys, its the truth and I hate
>> > hearing from the women on an almost weekly basis of this happening.
Look,
>> > if you give them room I won't have to keep reminding you to be
respectful
>> > of other racers.
>> >
>> > Second, when you are overtaking a group, be vocal, "On your
right/left",
>> > choose one side and stay there. The group that you are about to
overtake
>> > most likely knows you are coming and should slow down and let you pass
as
>> > easily as possible. Of course there are turns at PIR where passing can
>> > get touchy, but it shouldn't be this big of an issue year after year.
The
>> > group that is being neutralized/overtaken needs to stay neutral until a
>> > time when you can resume racing and not immediately get on top of or
>> > immediately be in a position to overtake the group that just passed
you.
>> > This should be a good 30+ seconds of room if not more. I know you want
to
>> > race, but you need to give that space. When we are road races the lead
>> > car sits there until the official gives the word to move and race, but
we
>> > don't have that luxury at PIR, you are on your own to do this. The
group
>> > that is doing the overtaking should NOT slow down after overtaking a
>> > group, keep racing!
>> >
>> > Third, remember that when your race is over that there is no cooling
down
>> > on the course. Please exit to the infield and cool down there. There
are
>> > racces still going and the course is colsed once the first race starts.
>> >
>> > Fourth, you need to sign in on the start sheet prior to lining up to
race
>> > and you need to make sure your number is on the correct side and
visible.
>> > I do not like my chief judge spending his own time trying to determine
>> > and place people who's number are placed in such a way that its almost
>> > impossible to recognize. Please use more than 4 pins when pinning your
>> > number, as that helps eliminate folding and flapping.
>> >
>> > Although I try very hard to get the groups out on the course in a way
to
>> > prevent overtaking immediately or shortly after starting your race, it
is
>> > not always possible.
>> >
>> > Questions for feedback:
>> >
>> > 1) Is there a problem with my instructions on neutral/overtaking?
>> >
>> > 2) How do you think things could be changed to improve the process?
>> >
>> > 3) How did you guys like the moto on the course a few weeks ago?
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks for your time and feedback,
>> > Scott Jones
>> > Cheif Ref Monday PIR
>> > ------------------------------
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. See
>> >
how.> >M_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Sarah Tisdale

In my experience, we're more likely to get "buzzed" when we're
neutralizing on the inside. This seems logical - its simply a longer
line (most of the time at PIR) to ride outside and give us a lot of
room while overtaking.

Of course, since the inside line is (most of the time) shorter, we're
usually riding the inside line ourselves. If we don't hear the
overtaking group until they're on us, there's no time to move outside.
This is why we often end up neutralizing on the inside.

Maybe a solution would be to somehow give the group being overtaken
better notice so they can more reliably get to the outside of the
track. At the west end of the track, we can usually look over our
shoulder and see a group coming. It's harder on the back straight and
turns 11&12.

Sarah

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 9:20 PM, joe cipale wrote:
>> > ------------------------------
>> > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:52:33 -0700
>> > From: hagenkt@mac.com
>> > To: scottjones007@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Monday Night PIR Thoughts
>> >
>> >
>> > Scott,
>> >
>> > Well put.  I think you are very clear at the start.  But as Patton said,
>> > no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.  Maybe it wasn’t
>> > Patton.
>> >
>> > Anyway,
>> >
>> > Here’s what I see:
>> >
>> >
>> >    1. The group being overtaken doesn’t seem to hear the overtaking group
>> >    until the group behind is right on top of the group ahead.  This is
>> >    especially true when it’s only a few riders doing the overtaking.  So
>> > when you yell “Stay right” or whatever, you’re probably already
>> > overtaking on the left and the hope that the group being overtaken all
>> > does the right thing is often a pipe dream at best.
>> >    2. There are too many egos involved on both sides.  There, I said it.
>> >    3. I was passing a women’s group a few weeks ago and when I yelled “on
>> >    your left” I got a chorus of “we’re in our last lap” replies.  Is this
>> > true? If a group being overtaken is in their last lap (this was on the
>> > back wall), they don’t need to neutralize?
>> >
>> >
>> > Anyway, I don’t know an easy solution here.  I raced Pacific Raceways in
>> > Seattle two weeks ago and we had the same issue.  In fact,  I was in a
>> > masters break and the 1-2 guys repeatedly failed to neutralized when we
>> > passed them.  Again and again.
>> >
>> > Karsten
>> >
>> >
>> > On 7/9/09 3:43 PM, "Scott Jones" wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > The last few weeks have had some hairy incidents at Monday Night PIR when
>> > it comes to neutralizing/overtaking other groups. I tried to explain this
>> > last night and got some positive and negative feedback. I am writing this
>> > message for several reasons, but mostly for rider feedback. As a racer
>> > myself, I know that things out on the road can be perceived one way by
>> > one person and another way by others. I'm going to lay a few things out
>> > for you and would enjoy your feedback.
>> >
>> > First, this week when I asked the men's fields to give the other groups,
>> > especially the ladies, plenty of room and you guys tried to laugh it off
>> > as no big deal, that wasn't very sportsman like. I got another report of
>> > it happening last night, not cool guys! Is there really this big of an
>> > issue to give another group room on the road? PIR has a surface that is
>> > well over 20 feet wide in all areas, so why do you need to buzz another
>> > group when overtaking? I realize that things happen on the road, people
>> > can be all over the place, groups can be wide, moving around, attacking,
>> > etc. and I can't see the whole track, but after last week when the
>> > 1/2/3's decided to literally buzz the women that were neutralized and
>> > going at least 15mph slower than you while hugging the concrete wall,
>> > *directly in front of the officials*, your word on giving them room where
>> > I can't see you lacks credibility. Sorry guys, its the truth and I hate
>> > hearing from the women on an almost weekly basis of this happening. Look,
>> > if you give them room I won't have to keep reminding you to be respectful
>> > of other racers.
>> >
>> > Second, when you are overtaking a group, be vocal, "On your right/left",
>> > choose one side and stay there. The group that you are about to overtake
>> > most likely knows you are coming and should slow down and let you pass as
>> > easily as possible. Of course there are turns at PIR where passing can
>> > get touchy, but it shouldn't be this big of an issue year after year. The
>> > group that is being neutralized/overtaken needs to stay neutral until a
>> > time when you can resume racing and not immediately get on top of or
>> > immediately be in a position to overtake the group that just passed you.
>> > This should be a good 30+ seconds of room if not more. I know you want to
>> > race, but you need to give that space. When we are road races the lead
>> > car sits there until the official gives the word to move and race, but we
>> > don't have that luxury at PIR, you are on your own to do this. The group
>> > that is doing the overtaking should NOT slow down after overtaking a
>> > group, keep racing!
>> >
>> > Third, remember that when your race is over that there is no cooling down
>> > on the course. Please exit to the infield and cool down there. There are
>> > racces still going and the course is colsed once the first race starts.
>> >
>> > Fourth, you need to sign in on the start sheet prior to lining up to race
>> > and you need to make sure your number is on the correct side and visible.
>> > I do not like my chief judge spending his own time trying to determine
>> > and place people who's number are placed in such a way that its almost
>> > impossible to recognize. Please use more than 4 pins when pinning your
>> > number, as that helps eliminate folding and flapping.
>> >
>> > Although I try very hard to get the groups out on the course in a way to
>> > prevent overtaking immediately or shortly after starting your race, it is
>> > not always possible.
>> >
>> > Questions for feedback:
>> >
>> > 1) Is there a problem with my instructions on neutral/overtaking?
>> >
>> > 2) How do you think things could be changed to improve the process?
>> >
>> > 3) How did you guys like the moto on the course a few weeks ago?
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks for your time and feedback,
>> > Scott Jones
>> > Cheif Ref Monday PIR
>> > ------------------------------
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. See
>> > how.> >M_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

joe cipale

The movie Patton was great... up until the end where it should him walking
away. Anyone who read the book knows he was killed in a motor vehicle
accident while on a hunting trip.

On Thursday 09 July 2009 21:08, john wrote:
> such nerds! probably both correct, i would hazard to guess most
> senior military officers have said it! according to wikipedia Helmuth
> Graf von Moltke is the first to say that line, but probably Sun Tzu said in
> so many words as well in the art of war, 6th century BC.
> from wiki: {Later Prussian and German generals such as Helmuth Graf von
> Moltke were
> clearly influenced by Clausewitz: Moltke's famous statement that "No
> campaign plan survives first contact with the enemy" is a classic
> reflection of Clausewitz's insistence on the roles of chance, friction,
> "fog," and uncertainty in war. The idea that actual war includes "friction"
> which deranges, to a greater or lesser degree, all prior arrangements, has
> become common currency in other fields as well (e.g., business strategy,
> sports).}
>
> by the way a fascinating book, and probably by far the best book on Patton,
> to read is Patton: A Genius for War by Carlo D'este
>
> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 7:12 PM, MARK STEGER wrote:
> > It was Irwin Rommel, the Desert Fox.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:52:33 -0700
> > From: hagenkt@mac.com
> > To: scottjones007@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Monday Night PIR Thoughts
> >
> >
> > Scott,
> >
> > Well put. I think you are very clear at the start. But as Patton said,
> > no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. Maybe it wasn’t
> > Patton.
> >
> > Anyway,
> >
> > Here’s what I see:
> >
> >
> > 1. The group being overtaken doesn’t seem to hear the overtaking group
> > until the group behind is right on top of the group ahead. This is
> > especially true when it’s only a few riders doing the overtaking. So
> > when you yell “Stay right” or whatever, you’re probably already
> > overtaking on the left and the hope that the group being overtaken all
> > does the right thing is often a pipe dream at best.
> > 2. There are too many egos involved on both sides. There, I said it.
> > 3. I was passing a women’s group a few weeks ago and when I yelled “on
> > your left” I got a chorus of “we’re in our last lap” replies. Is this
> > true? If a group being overtaken is in their last lap (this was on the
> > back wall), they don’t need to neutralize?
> >
> >
> > Anyway, I don’t know an easy solution here. I raced Pacific Raceways in
> > Seattle two weeks ago and we had the same issue. In fact, I was in a
> > masters break and the 1-2 guys repeatedly failed to neutralized when we
> > passed them. Again and again.
> >
> > Karsten
> >
> >
> > On 7/9/09 3:43 PM, "Scott Jones" wrote:
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > The last few weeks have had some hairy incidents at Monday Night PIR when
> > it comes to neutralizing/overtaking other groups. I tried to explain this
> > last night and got some positive and negative feedback. I am writing this
> > message for several reasons, but mostly for rider feedback. As a racer
> > myself, I know that things out on the road can be perceived one way by
> > one person and another way by others. I'm going to lay a few things out
> > for you and would enjoy your feedback.
> >
> > First, this week when I asked the men's fields to give the other groups,
> > especially the ladies, plenty of room and you guys tried to laugh it off
> > as no big deal, that wasn't very sportsman like. I got another report of
> > it happening last night, not cool guys! Is there really this big of an
> > issue to give another group room on the road? PIR has a surface that is
> > well over 20 feet wide in all areas, so why do you need to buzz another
> > group when overtaking? I realize that things happen on the road, people
> > can be all over the place, groups can be wide, moving around, attacking,
> > etc. and I can't see the whole track, but after last week when the
> > 1/2/3's decided to literally buzz the women that were neutralized and
> > going at least 15mph slower than you while hugging the concrete wall,
> > *directly in front of the officials*, your word on giving them room where
> > I can't see you lacks credibility. Sorry guys, its the truth and I hate
> > hearing from the women on an almost weekly basis of this happening. Look,
> > if you give them room I won't have to keep reminding you to be respectful
> > of other racers.
> >
> > Second, when you are overtaking a group, be vocal, "On your right/left",
> > choose one side and stay there. The group that you are about to overtake
> > most likely knows you are coming and should slow down and let you pass as
> > easily as possible. Of course there are turns at PIR where passing can
> > get touchy, but it shouldn't be this big of an issue year after year. The
> > group that is being neutralized/overtaken needs to stay neutral until a
> > time when you can resume racing and not immediately get on top of or
> > immediately be in a position to overtake the group that just passed you.
> > This should be a good 30+ seconds of room if not more. I know you want to
> > race, but you need to give that space. When we are road races the lead
> > car sits there until the official gives the word to move and race, but we
> > don't have that luxury at PIR, you are on your own to do this. The group
> > that is doing the overtaking should NOT slow down after overtaking a
> > group, keep racing!
> >
> > Third, remember that when your race is over that there is no cooling down
> > on the course. Please exit to the infield and cool down there. There are
> > racces still going and the course is colsed once the first race starts.
> >
> > Fourth, you need to sign in on the start sheet prior to lining up to race
> > and you need to make sure your number is on the correct side and visible.
> > I do not like my chief judge spending his own time trying to determine
> > and place people who's number are placed in such a way that its almost
> > impossible to recognize. Please use more than 4 pins when pinning your
> > number, as that helps eliminate folding and flapping.
> >
> > Although I try very hard to get the groups out on the course in a way to
> > prevent overtaking immediately or shortly after starting your race, it is
> > not always possible.
> >
> > Questions for feedback:
> >
> > 1) Is there a problem with my instructions on neutral/overtaking?
> >
> > 2) How do you think things could be changed to improve the process?
> >
> > 3) How did you guys like the moto on the course a few weeks ago?
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your time and feedback,
> > Scott Jones
> > Cheif Ref Monday PIR
> > ------------------------------
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. See
> > how. >M_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john

such nerds! probably both correct, i would hazard to guess most
senior military officers have said it! according to wikipedia Helmuth
Graf von Moltke is the first to say that line, but probably Sun Tzu said in
so many words as well in the art of war, 6th century BC.
from wiki: {Later Prussian and German generals such as Helmuth Graf von
Moltke were
clearly influenced by Clausewitz: Moltke's famous statement that "No
campaign plan survives first contact with the enemy" is a classic reflection
of Clausewitz's insistence on the roles of chance, friction, "fog," and
uncertainty in war. The idea that actual war includes "friction" which
deranges, to a greater or lesser degree, all prior arrangements, has become
common currency in other fields as well (e.g., business strategy, sports).}

by the way a fascinating book, and probably by far the best book on Patton,
to read is Patton: A Genius for War by Carlo D'este

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 7:12 PM, MARK STEGER wrote:

> It was Irwin Rommel, the Desert Fox.
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:52:33 -0700
> From: hagenkt@mac.com
> To: scottjones007@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Monday Night PIR Thoughts
>
>
> Scott,
>
> Well put. I think you are very clear at the start. But as Patton said, no
> battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. Maybe it wasn’t Patton.
>
> Anyway,
>
> Here’s what I see:
>
>
> 1. The group being overtaken doesn’t seem to hear the overtaking group
> until the group behind is right on top of the group ahead. This is
> especially true when it’s only a few riders doing the overtaking. So when
> you yell “Stay right” or whatever, you’re probably already overtaking on the
> left and the hope that the group being overtaken all does the right thing is
> often a pipe dream at best.
> 2. There are too many egos involved on both sides. There, I said it.
> 3. I was passing a women’s group a few weeks ago and when I yelled “on
> your left” I got a chorus of “we’re in our last lap” replies. Is this true?
> If a group being overtaken is in their last lap (this was on the back
> wall), they don’t need to neutralize?
>
>
> Anyway, I don’t know an easy solution here. I raced Pacific Raceways in
> Seattle two weeks ago and we had the same issue. In fact, I was in a
> masters break and the 1-2 guys repeatedly failed to neutralized when we
> passed them. Again and again.
>
> Karsten
>
>
> On 7/9/09 3:43 PM, "Scott Jones" wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> The last few weeks have had some hairy incidents at Monday Night PIR when
> it comes to neutralizing/overtaking other groups. I tried to explain this
> last night and got some positive and negative feedback. I am writing this
> message for several reasons, but mostly for rider feedback. As a racer
> myself, I know that things out on the road can be perceived one way by one
> person and another way by others. I'm going to lay a few things out for you
> and would enjoy your feedback.
>
> First, this week when I asked the men's fields to give the other groups,
> especially the ladies, plenty of room and you guys tried to laugh it off as
> no big deal, that wasn't very sportsman like. I got another report of it
> happening last night, not cool guys! Is there really this big of an issue to
> give another group room on the road? PIR has a surface that is well over 20
> feet wide in all areas, so why do you need to buzz another group when
> overtaking? I realize that things happen on the road, people can be all over
> the place, groups can be wide, moving around, attacking, etc. and I can't
> see the whole track, but after last week when the 1/2/3's decided to
> literally buzz the women that were neutralized and going at least 15mph
> slower than you while hugging the concrete wall, *directly in front of the
> officials*, your word on giving them room where I can't see you lacks
> credibility. Sorry guys, its the truth and I hate hearing from the women on
> an almost weekly basis of this happening. Look, if you give them room I
> won't have to keep reminding you to be respectful of other racers.
>
> Second, when you are overtaking a group, be vocal, "On your right/left",
> choose one side and stay there. The group that you are about to overtake
> most likely knows you are coming and should slow down and let you pass as
> easily as possible. Of course there are turns at PIR where passing can get
> touchy, but it shouldn't be this big of an issue year after year. The group
> that is being neutralized/overtaken needs to stay neutral until a time when
> you can resume racing and not immediately get on top of or immediately be in
> a position to overtake the group that just passed you. This should be a good
> 30+ seconds of room if not more. I know you want to race, but you need to
> give that space. When we are road races the lead car sits there until the
> official gives the word to move and race, but we don't have that luxury at
> PIR, you are on your own to do this. The group that is doing the overtaking
> should NOT slow down after overtaking a group, keep racing!
>
> Third, remember that when your race is over that there is no cooling down
> on the course. Please exit to the infield and cool down there. There are
> racces still going and the course is colsed once the first race starts.
>
> Fourth, you need to sign in on the start sheet prior to lining up to race
> and you need to make sure your number is on the correct side and visible. I
> do not like my chief judge spending his own time trying to determine and
> place people who's number are placed in such a way that its almost
> impossible to recognize. Please use more than 4 pins when pinning your
> number, as that helps eliminate folding and flapping.
>
> Although I try very hard to get the groups out on the course in a way to
> prevent overtaking immediately or shortly after starting your race, it is
> not always possible.
>
> Questions for feedback:
>
> 1) Is there a problem with my instructions on neutral/overtaking?
>
> 2) How do you think things could be changed to improve the process?
>
> 3) How did you guys like the moto on the course a few weeks ago?
>
>
> Thanks for your time and feedback,
> Scott Jones
> Cheif Ref Monday PIR
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
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--
jms, pe pdx, or
http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/

MARK STEGER

It was Irwin Rommel, the Desert Fox.

Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:52:33 -0700
From: hagenkt@mac.com
To: scottjones007@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Monday Night PIR Thoughts

Scott,

Well put. I think you are very clear at the start. But as Patton said, no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. Maybe it wasn’t Patton.

Anyway,

Here’s what I see:

The group being overtaken doesn’t seem to hear the overtaking group until the group behind is right on top of the group ahead. This is especially true when it’s only a few riders doing the overtaking. So when you yell “Stay right” or whatever, you’re probably already overtaking on the left and the hope that the group being overtaken all does the right thing is often a pipe dream at best.
There are too many egos involved on both sides. There, I said it.
I was passing a women’s group a few weeks ago and when I yelled “on your left” I got a chorus of “we’re in our last lap” replies. Is this true? If a group being overtaken is in their last lap (this was on the back wall), they don’t need to neutralize?

Anyway, I don’t know an easy solution here. I raced Pacific Raceways in Seattle two weeks ago and we had the same issue. In fact, I was in a masters break and the 1-2 guys repeatedly failed to neutralized when we passed them. Again and again.

Karsten

On 7/9/09 3:43 PM, "Scott Jones" wrote:

Hello everyone,

The last few weeks have had some hairy incidents at Monday Night PIR when it comes to neutralizing/overtaking other groups. I tried to explain this last night and got some positive and negative feedback. I am writing this message for several reasons, but mostly for rider feedback. As a racer myself, I know that things out on the road can be perceived one way by one person and another way by others. I'm going to lay a few things out for you and would enjoy your feedback.

First, this week when I asked the men's fields to give the other groups, especially the ladies, plenty of room and you guys tried to laugh it off as no big deal, that wasn't very sportsman like. I got another report of it happening last night, not cool guys! Is there really this big of an issue to give another group room on the road? PIR has a surface that is well over 20 feet wide in all areas, so why do you need to buzz another group when overtaking? I realize that things happen on the road, people can be all over the place, groups can be wide, moving around, attacking, etc. and I can't see the whole track, but after last week when the 1/2/3's decided to literally buzz the women that were neutralized and going at least 15mph slower than you while hugging the concrete wall, directly in front of the officials, your word on giving them room where I can't see you lacks credibility. Sorry guys, its the truth and I hate hearing from the women on an almost weekly basis of this happening. Look, if you give them room I won't have to keep reminding you to be respectful of other racers.

Second, when you are overtaking a group, be vocal, "On your right/left", choose one side and stay there. The group that you are about to overtake most likely knows you are coming and should slow down and let you pass as easily as possible. Of course there are turns at PIR where passing can get touchy, but it shouldn't be this big of an issue year after year. The group that is being neutralized/overtaken needs to stay neutral until a time when you can resume racing and not immediately get on top of or immediately be in a position to overtake the group that just passed you. This should be a good 30+ seconds of room if not more. I know you want to race, but you need to give that space. When we are road races the lead car sits there until the official gives the word to move and race, but we don't have that luxury at PIR, you are on your own to do this. The group that is doing the overtaking should NOT slow down after overtaking a group, keep racing!

Third, remember that when your race is over that there is no cooling down on the course. Please exit to the infield and cool down there. There are racces still going and the course is colsed once the first race starts.

Fourth, you need to sign in on the start sheet prior to lining up to race and you need to make sure your number is on the correct side and visible. I do not like my chief judge spending his own time trying to determine and place people who's number are placed in such a way that its almost impossible to recognize. Please use more than 4 pins when pinning your number, as that helps eliminate folding and flapping.

Although I try very hard to get the groups out on the course in a way to prevent overtaking immediately or shortly after starting your race, it is not always possible.

Questions for feedback:

1) Is there a problem with my instructions on neutral/overtaking?

2) How do you think things could be changed to improve the process?

3) How did you guys like the moto on the course a few weeks ago?

Thanks for your time and feedback,
Scott Jones
Cheif Ref Monday PIR

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Karsten Hagen

Scott,

Well put. I think you are very clear at the start. But as Patton said, no
battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. Maybe it wasn¹t Patton.

Anyway,

Here¹s what I see:

1. The group being overtaken doesn¹t seem to hear the overtaking group until
the group behind is right on top of the group ahead. This is especially
true when it¹s only a few riders doing the overtaking. So when you yell
³Stay right² or whatever, you¹re probably already overtaking on the left and
the hope that the group being overtaken all does the right thing is often a
pipe dream at best.
2. There are too many egos involved on both sides. There, I said it.
3. I was passing a women¹s group a few weeks ago and when I yelled ³on your
left² I got a chorus of ³we¹re in our last lap² replies. Is this true? If
a group being overtaken is in their last lap (this was on the back wall),
they don¹t need to neutralize?

Anyway, I don¹t know an easy solution here. I raced Pacific Raceways in
Seattle two weeks ago and we had the same issue. In fact, I was in a
masters break and the 1-2 guys repeatedly failed to neutralized when we
passed them. Again and again.

Karsten

On 7/9/09 3:43 PM, "Scott Jones" wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> The last few weeks have had some hairy incidents at Monday Night PIR when it
> comes to neutralizing/overtaking other groups. I tried to explain this last
> night and got some positive and negative feedback. I am writing this message
> for several reasons, but mostly for rider feedback. As a racer myself, I know
> that things out on the road can be perceived one way by one person and another
> way by others. I'm going to lay a few things out for you and would enjoy your
> feedback.
>
> First, this week when I asked the men's fields to give the other groups,
> especially the ladies, plenty of room and you guys tried to laugh it off as no
> big deal, that wasn't very sportsman like. I got another report of it
> happening last night, not cool guys! Is there really this big of an issue to
> give another group room on the road? PIR has a surface that is well over 20
> feet wide in all areas, so why do you need to buzz another group when
> overtaking? I realize that things happen on the road, people can be all over
> the place, groups can be wide, moving around, attacking, etc. and I can't see
> the whole track, but after last week when the 1/2/3's decided to literally
> buzz the women that were neutralized and going at least 15mph slower than you
> while hugging the concrete wall, directly in front of the officials, your word
> on giving them room where I can't see you lacks credibility. Sorry guys, its
> the truth and I hate hearing from the women on an almost weekly basis of this
> happening. Look, if you give them room I won't have to keep reminding you to
> be respectful of other racers.
>
> Second, when you are overtaking a group, be vocal, "On your right/left",
> choose one side and stay there. The group that you are about to overtake most
> likely knows you are coming and should slow down and let you pass as easily as
> possible. Of course there are turns at PIR where passing can get touchy, but
> it shouldn't be this big of an issue year after year. The group that is being
> neutralized/overtaken needs to stay neutral until a time when you can resume
> racing and not immediately get on top of or immediately be in a position to
> overtake the group that just passed you. This should be a good 30+ seconds of
> room if not more. I know you want to race, but you need to give that space.
> When we are road races the lead car sits there until the official gives the
> word to move and race, but we don't have that luxury at PIR, you are on your
> own to do this. The group that is doing the overtaking should NOT slow down
> after overtaking a group, keep racing!
>
> Third, remember that when your race is over that there is no cooling down on
> the course. Please exit to the infield and cool down there. There are racces
> still going and the course is colsed once the first race starts.
>
> Fourth, you need to sign in on the start sheet prior to lining up to race and
> you need to make sure your number is on the correct side and visible. I do not
> like my chief judge spending his own time trying to determine and place people
> who's number are placed in such a way that its almost impossible to recognize.
> Please use more than 4 pins when pinning your number, as that helps eliminate
> folding and flapping.
>
> Although I try very hard to get the groups out on the course in a way to
> prevent overtaking immediately or shortly after starting your race, it is not
> always possible.
>
> Questions for feedback:
>
> 1) Is there a problem with my instructions on neutral/overtaking? 
>
> 2) How do you think things could be changed to improve the process?
>
> 3) How did you guys like the moto on the course a few weeks ago?
>
>
> Thanks for your time and feedback,
> Scott Jones
> Cheif Ref Monday PIR
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Scott Jones

Hello everyone,

The last few weeks have had some hairy incidents at Monday Night PIR when it
comes to neutralizing/overtaking other groups. I tried to explain this last
night and got some positive and negative feedback. I am writing this message
for several reasons, but mostly for rider feedback. As a racer myself, I
know that things out on the road can be perceived one way by one person and
another way by others. I'm going to lay a few things out for you and would
enjoy your feedback.

First, this week when I asked the men's fields to give the other groups,
especially the ladies, plenty of room and you guys tried to laugh it off as
no big deal, that wasn't very sportsman like. I got another report of it
happening last night, not cool guys! Is there really this big of an issue to
give another group room on the road? PIR has a surface that is well over 20
feet wide in all areas, so why do you need to buzz another group when
overtaking? I realize that things happen on the road, people can be all over
the place, groups can be wide, moving around, attacking, etc. and I can't
see the whole track, but after last week when the 1/2/3's decided to
literally buzz the women that were neutralized and going at least 15mph
slower than you while hugging the concrete wall, *directly in front of the
officials*, your word on giving them room where I can't see you lacks
credibility. Sorry guys, its the truth and I hate hearing from the women on
an almost weekly basis of this happening. Look, if you give them room I
won't have to keep reminding you to be respectful of other racers.

Second, when you are overtaking a group, be vocal, "On your right/left",
choose one side and stay there. The group that you are about to overtake
most likely knows you are coming and should slow down and let you pass as
easily as possible. Of course there are turns at PIR where passing can get
touchy, but it shouldn't be this big of an issue year after year. The group
that is being neutralized/overtaken needs to stay neutral until a time when
you can resume racing and not immediately get on top of or immediately be in
a position to overtake the group that just passed you. This should be a good
30+ seconds of room if not more. I know you want to race, but you need to
give that space. When we are road races the lead car sits there until the
official gives the word to move and race, but we don't have that luxury at
PIR, you are on your own to do this. The group that is doing the overtaking
should NOT slow down after overtaking a group, keep racing!

Third, remember that when your race is over that there is no cooling down on
the course. Please exit to the infield and cool down there. There are racces
still going and the course is colsed once the first race starts.

Fourth, you need to sign in on the start sheet prior to lining up to race
and you need to make sure your number is on the correct side and visible. I
do not like my chief judge spending his own time trying to determine and
place people who's number are placed in such a way that its almost
impossible to recognize. Please use more than 4 pins when pinning your
number, as that helps eliminate folding and flapping.

Although I try very hard to get the groups out on the course in a way to
prevent overtaking immediately or shortly after starting your race, it is
not always possible.

Questions for feedback:

1) Is there a problem with my instructions on neutral/overtaking?

2) How do you think things could be changed to improve the process?

3) How did you guys like the moto on the course a few weeks ago?

Thanks for your time and feedback,
Scott Jones
Cheif Ref Monday PIR