Renegade Win & Out Details

Russell @ Upper Echelon Fitness

2009-09-01

I have seen the Win and Out run both ways. The traditional format referred
to as the "Danish Win and Out" and the "Belgian Win and Out" is the format
Seth is proposing. While not as common, I have seen this race format used
before and the race went off without incident.

RC

Russell Cree, DPT
Upper Echelon Fitness, LLC
Coaching I Bike Fitting I Phys Testing I Physical Therapy
www.upperechelonfitness.com
Phone: 503.501.8121
Fax: 503.345.0999

On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Candi Murray wrote:

> Chuck is correct. In a Win and Out the first sprint is for 1st place,
> then subsequent sprints fill the prize list. You should either change the
> rules or the name of the event.
> The way this one is concocted the potential for disaster is high.
> Candi
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *chood1@comcast.net
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 01, 2009 8:54 AM
> *To:* Seth May
> *Cc:* OBRA
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details
>
> Seth.
>
> I am sorry, but I think Win and Outs work best the other way...on lap 18
> you sprint for 1st place, no? What incentive is there to sprint for the
> first sprint if you are only going to get 10th? It will seem like everyone
> will hit the brakes at the line and the tenth slowest reaction time will get
> the sprint. If you do it like velodrome racing, you would sprint for 1st
> place FIRST and then race 2nd, and then 3rd.
>
> That is how a velodrome Win and Out works so I would just assume that is
> how tonight's race would work. Again, what incentive is there to race for
> 10th place first?
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Chuck Hood
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Seth May"
> To: "OBRA"
> Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 8:24:54 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details
>
> All,
> In preparation for tonights Renegade (reverse) Win & Out in Eugene, I
> want to let folks know how this is going to work.
>
> The Cat 4/5 will race 22 laps, the Cat 1/2/3 will do between 25 & 30,
> depending on my assessment of the daylight vs cloud cover, etc.
>
> The rest applies to both races:
> On lap 19, the pack will hear the bell.
> The first person across the line on lap 18 will take 10th place and will
> the be finished the race and must exit the course. The rest of the race
> will proceed as follows:
> Lap 19: Bell
> Lap 18: 10th place
> Lap 17: Bell
> Lap 16: 9th place
> Lap 15: Bell
> Lap 14: 8th place
> Lap 13: Bell
> Lap 12: 7th place
> Lap 11: Bell
> Lap 10: 6th place
> Lap 9: Bell
> Lap 8: 5th place
> Lap 7: Bell
> Lap 6: 4th place
> Lap 5: Bell
> Lap 4: 3rd place
> Lap 3: Bell
> Lap 2: 2nd place
> Lap 1: Bell
> Finish: 1st place
>
> I think most of you see a pattern here. Please note that the 2nd
> finisher on the final lap does not take a top 10 placing! That
> prestigious position goes to the winner of lap 18. If you win a
> position, your race is done and you must exit the course. You can not
> try for a better position.
>
> So why might you want to chase 10th place? If you've never had a top 10
> placing before, here is your chance! If your looking for brighter glory,
> racing for 10th could put you out of contention for a top 5 finish, so
> you might want to hold off. Last year we had strong sprints for every
> placing.
>
> Good luck all. Should be a fun night.
>
> Thanks
> Seth
>
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>
>


Ron Frerichs

2009-09-01

I think Seth's explanation defines the format pretty clearly. I don't know what you would rename the event to...it is a win and out. You're just winning places in reverse order.

Sal ran this same race last year. I have to admit that I was a little skeptical. But it was competitive and fun. There are enough riders happy to take a top ten that I think every spot was contested. I contested 4th, and was fine with taking that spot and watching the finish.

Ron

From: cmurray@obra.org
To: chood1@comcast.net; sethm@uoregon.edu
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:23:50 -0700
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details

Chuck is correct. In a Win and Out the first sprint is for 1st place, then subsequent sprints fill the prize list. You should either change the rules or the name of the event.
The way this one is concocted the potential for disaster is high.
Candi

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of chood1@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 8:54 AM
To: Seth May
Cc: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details

Seth.

I am sorry, but I think Win and Outs work best the other way...on lap 18 you sprint for 1st place, no? What incentive is there to sprint for the first sprint if you are only going to get 10th? It will seem like everyone will hit the brakes at the line and the tenth slowest reaction time will get the sprint. If you do it like velodrome racing, you would sprint for 1st place FIRST and then race 2nd, and then 3rd.

That is how a velodrome Win and Out works so I would just assume that is how tonight's race would work. Again, what incentive is there to race for 10th place first?

Just my thoughts.

Chuck Hood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth May"
To: "OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 8:24:54 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details

All,
In preparation for tonights Renegade (reverse) Win & Out in Eugene, I
want to let folks know how this is going to work.

The Cat 4/5 will race 22 laps, the Cat 1/2/3 will do between 25 & 30,
depending on my assessment of the daylight vs cloud cover, etc.

The rest applies to both races:
On lap 19, the pack will hear the bell.
The first person across the line on lap 18 will take 10th place and will
the be finished the race and must exit the course. The rest of the race
will proceed as follows:
Lap 19: Bell
Lap 18: 10th place
Lap 17: Bell
Lap 16: 9th place
Lap 15: Bell
Lap 14: 8th place
Lap 13: Bell
Lap 12: 7th place
Lap 11: Bell
Lap 10: 6th place
Lap 9: Bell
Lap 8: 5th place
Lap 7: Bell
Lap 6: 4th place
Lap 5: Bell
Lap 4: 3rd place
Lap 3: Bell
Lap 2: 2nd place
Lap 1: Bell
Finish: 1st place

I think most of you see a pattern here. Please note that the 2nd
finisher on the final lap does not take a top 10 placing! That
prestigious position goes to the winner of lap 18. If you win a
position, your race is done and you must exit the course. You can not
try for a better position.

So why might you want to chase 10th place? If you've never had a top 10
placing before, here is your chance! If your looking for brighter glory,
racing for 10th could put you out of contention for a top 5 finish, so
you might want to hold off. Last year we had strong sprints for every
placing.

Good luck all. Should be a fun night.

Thanks
Seth

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Candi Murray

2009-09-01

Chuck is correct. In a Win and Out the first sprint is for 1st place, then
subsequent sprints fill the prize list. You should either change the rules
or the name of the event.
The way this one is concocted the potential for disaster is high.
Candi

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of chood1@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 8:54 AM
To: Seth May
Cc: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details

Seth.

I am sorry, but I think Win and Outs work best the other way...on lap 18 you
sprint for 1st place, no? What incentive is there to sprint for the first
sprint if you are only going to get 10th? It will seem like everyone will
hit the brakes at the line and the tenth slowest reaction time will get the
sprint. If you do it like velodrome racing, you would sprint for 1st place
FIRST and then race 2nd, and then 3rd.

That is how a velodrome Win and Out works so I would just assume that is how
tonight's race would work. Again, what incentive is there to race for 10th
place first?

Just my thoughts.

Chuck Hood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth May"
To: "OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 8:24:54 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details

All,
In preparation for tonights Renegade (reverse) Win & Out in Eugene, I
want to let folks know how this is going to work.

The Cat 4/5 will race 22 laps, the Cat 1/2/3 will do between 25 & 30,
depending on my assessment of the daylight vs cloud cover, etc.

The rest applies to both races:
On lap 19, the pack will hear the bell.
The first person across the line on lap 18 will take 10th place and will
the be finished the race and must exit the course. The rest of the race
will proceed as follows:
Lap 19: Bell
Lap 18: 10th place
Lap 17: Bell
Lap 16: 9th place
Lap 15: Bell
Lap 14: 8th place
Lap 13: Bell
Lap 12: 7th place
Lap 11: Bell
Lap 10: 6th place
Lap 9: Bell
Lap 8: 5th place
Lap 7: Bell
Lap 6: 4th place
Lap 5: Bell
Lap 4: 3rd place
Lap 3: Bell
Lap 2: 2nd place
Lap 1: Bell
Finish: 1st place

I think most of you see a pattern here. Please note that the 2nd
finisher on the final lap does not take a top 10 placing! That
prestigious position goes to the winner of lap 18. If you win a
position, your race is done and you must exit the course. You can not
try for a better position.

So why might you want to chase 10th place? If you've never had a top 10
placing before, here is your chance! If your looking for brighter glory,
racing for 10th could put you out of contention for a top 5 finish, so
you might want to hold off. Last year we had strong sprints for every
placing.

Good luck all. Should be a fun night.

Thanks
Seth

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chood1@comcast.net

2009-09-01

Sorry. I missed the "Reversed" part.

:)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth May"
To: "OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 9:17:54 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details

All,
You'll notice in the first line of my email I called this race the

Renegade (reverse) Win & Out

This is in fact a reverse win and out. You can ask Sal why he decided to
run it that way, but truly, I think it adds some fun and safe chaos to
our regular Tuesday night race.We have plenty of racers who have never
taken a top 20 finish, making 10th a pretty good placing.

Thanks
Seth
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Seth May

2009-09-01

All,
You'll notice in the first line of my email I called this race the

Renegade (reverse) Win & Out

This is in fact a reverse win and out. You can ask Sal why he decided to
run it that way, but truly, I think it adds some fun and safe chaos to
our regular Tuesday night race.We have plenty of racers who have never
taken a top 20 finish, making 10th a pretty good placing.

Thanks
Seth


chood1@comcast.net

2009-09-01

Seth.

I am sorry, but I think Win and Outs work best the other way...on lap 18 you sprint for 1st place, no? What incentive is there to sprint for the first sprint if you are only going to get 10th? It will seem like everyone will hit the brakes at the line and the tenth slowest reaction time will get the sprint. If you do it like velodrome racing, you would sprint for 1st place FIRST and then race 2nd, and then 3rd.

That is how a velodrome Win and Out works so I would just assume that is how tonight's race would work. Again, what incentive is there to race for 10th place first?

Just my thoughts.

Chuck Hood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth May"
To: "OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 8:24:54 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Renegade Win & Out Details

All,
In preparation for tonights Renegade (reverse) Win & Out in Eugene, I
want to let folks know how this is going to work.

The Cat 4/5 will race 22 laps, the Cat 1/2/3 will do between 25 & 30,
depending on my assessment of the daylight vs cloud cover, etc.

The rest applies to both races:
On lap 19, the pack will hear the bell.
The first person across the line on lap 18 will take 10th place and will
the be finished the race and must exit the course. The rest of the race
will proceed as follows:
Lap 19: Bell
Lap 18: 10th place
Lap 17: Bell
Lap 16: 9th place
Lap 15: Bell
Lap 14: 8th place
Lap 13: Bell
Lap 12: 7th place
Lap 11: Bell
Lap 10: 6th place
Lap 9: Bell
Lap 8: 5th place
Lap 7: Bell
Lap 6: 4th place
Lap 5: Bell
Lap 4: 3rd place
Lap 3: Bell
Lap 2: 2nd place
Lap 1: Bell
Finish: 1st place

I think most of you see a pattern here. Please note that the 2nd
finisher on the final lap does not take a top 10 placing! That
prestigious position goes to the winner of lap 18. If you win a
position, your race is done and you must exit the course. You can not
try for a better position.

So why might you want to chase 10th place? If you've never had a top 10
placing before, here is your chance! If your looking for brighter glory,
racing for 10th could put you out of contention for a top 5 finish, so
you might want to hold off. Last year we had strong sprints for every
placing.

Good luck all. Should be a fun night.

Thanks
Seth

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Seth May

2009-09-01

All,
In preparation for tonights Renegade (reverse) Win & Out in Eugene, I
want to let folks know how this is going to work.

The Cat 4/5 will race 22 laps, the Cat 1/2/3 will do between 25 & 30,
depending on my assessment of the daylight vs cloud cover, etc.

The rest applies to both races:
On lap 19, the pack will hear the bell.
The first person across the line on lap 18 will take 10th place and will
the be finished the race and must exit the course. The rest of the race
will proceed as follows:
Lap 19: Bell
Lap 18: 10th place
Lap 17: Bell
Lap 16: 9th place
Lap 15: Bell
Lap 14: 8th place
Lap 13: Bell
Lap 12: 7th place
Lap 11: Bell
Lap 10: 6th place
Lap 9: Bell
Lap 8: 5th place
Lap 7: Bell
Lap 6: 4th place
Lap 5: Bell
Lap 4: 3rd place
Lap 3: Bell
Lap 2: 2nd place
Lap 1: Bell
Finish: 1st place

I think most of you see a pattern here. Please note that the 2nd
finisher on the final lap does not take a top 10 placing! That
prestigious position goes to the winner of lap 18. If you win a
position, your race is done and you must exit the course. You can not
try for a better position.

So why might you want to chase 10th place? If you've never had a top 10
placing before, here is your chance! If your looking for brighter glory,
racing for 10th could put you out of contention for a top 5 finish, so
you might want to hold off. Last year we had strong sprints for every
placing.

Good luck all. Should be a fun night.

Thanks
Seth