OBRA: OBRA Chat: Kenny Williams

Erik Voldengen

2009-11-16

[image: http://www.masonicinfo.com/images/BeatDeadHorse.gif]

Luciano bailey

2009-11-16

WHo's to say I'm no apologist Kenny may have trained his ass off all year never expecting to be clipped (by Blackwelder ) in a fluke crash off the front a half lap from the finish of a hundred lap points race. Not one person present didn't feel for Kenny having his season dashed in such a way. No excuses just the facts.

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:49:04 -0800
From: helmutroole@yahoo.com
To: Doug.Evans@sprbrk.com
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Kenny Williams

+1...

For all those KW apologists who did their one post there's 20 guys who will tell a much different story.

From: Doug Evans
To: Kevin ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 11:45:52 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Kenny Williams

I just think about the guy who trains hard all season and makes all of the sacrifices necessary to compete at the top level and loses to someone who doped. There aren’t any excuses for this type of behavior.

Someone else should have been on top of the podium and was robbed of the honor due to this guy’s lack of integrity.

Doug Evans
Vice President of Development
Springbrook Software
503.820.2240 x2202 phone
503.820.4537 fax

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:35 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Kenny Williams

I don't know Kenny but I do find this all very interesting. We as a society, and as bike racers, decry the "win at any cost" mentality that allows with a wink of an eye the use of performance enhancing drugs. Whether it's baseball or biking we all look at the results of individuals and wonder what they would have been able to do if they were "competing clean". We look down on those who choose that path yet when it's someone we know we make excuses. "He's a nice guy", "he's done a lot for the sport", "he's a great mentor", "he only did it once", etc.

Is cheating ever okay? At what point does cheating become cheating?

How about steriods to bulk up on muscle?

How about that caffiene tablet at 20 hours into an endurance race?

How about that Ibuprofin tablet prior to some hard event?

How about "carbo loading" the night before?

How about mixing Perpetuem into your water bottle?

How about Gatorade???

Where is that line in the sand?

And does it move if we know the party who's caught?

Kevin

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Joe Cipale

2009-11-14

I have a better idea:
"SHUT UP and Ride yer Damn Bike!'

rosenfeldma@gmail.com wrote:

> Excellent! =C2=A0Now we can turn it into glue for our tubulars!!
>
> -- Sent from my Palm Pre
> Erik Voldengen wrote:

rosenfeldma@gmail.com

2009-11-14

Excellent! Now we can turn it into glue for our tubulars!!

-- Sent from my Palm Pre
Erik Voldengen wrote:

Erik Voldengen

2009-11-14

[image: http://coreygilmore.com/uploads/2007/08/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg]

Brian Mack

2009-11-14

As always, I offer some different perspectives for those who care to consider them (apologies for the length) -

1) "This exchange is truly amazing to me. A group of people who obsess over whether tubulars or tubeless tires will give them an edge, over whether a disc wheel or an aero helmet will save more time, and which brand of sports drink will make that sliver of a difference between 5th place and winning are actually suggesting that the performance enhancers that one of its own was taking didn't really matter."

- What amazes me is that this group of people - so desperate for an advantage that they are obsess every day on this list with ridiculous minutiae of equipment, diet, and training - can possibly chastise someone for also seeking an edge through pharmaceuticals. No doubt many of the same who would readily use an inhaler or Tylenol, now confuse the illegality of a method or substance with immorality.

- Next year many of us will line up with normal road bikes and helmets as we compete in required time trials during stage races. We will not be at a 1% advantage to those with better equipment, we will be at a 20% disadvantage. This is a far more common and offensive source of inequality at the amateur level, and yet we are here obsessing about tiny differences gleaned from the choices of a tiny minority.

2) "Bad comparison, to lump carbs, Gatorade and/or Perpertuum in with EPO and steroids.? You really cannot compare legal with illegal substances.? Foods, and derivatives thereof, are necessary for the body to function, even at the lowest level.? Drugs like EPO and steroids are unnecessary for normal function."

- There is nothing normal about the human body pushing bike pedals and riding over mountains for 6 hours at a time. By all accounts, our sport is a highly derivative and specialized, extreme activity that pushes the body way beyond what it normally does. Arguably, the use of performance-enhancing pharmaceuticals is very much an extension of specially formulated endurance food and drink mix. From a certain medical perspective, drugs help the body return to health after extremist and deleterious workouts. They better prepare the human body to undergo huge stress in harsh environments, the same as any other equipment, clothing, training, or nutrition choice does.

3) 'I race in order to do my personal best and to get out and exercise on the weekends' (paraphrased)

- Competition is about one thing, winning. It's in the definition. If you aren't racing to win or make someone else win, you're not racing.

None of these perspectives say that doping is ok. Being ok is a matter of the rules that define a structured bike race competition. The point is just that you should be about as offended that somebody used performance enhancing drugs as you would be if you found out that his bike came in under the legal weight. A guy broke some rules and got caught for it. Let’s put it in perspective, reaffirm our current rules and laws, smugly pat ourselves on the back for not being cheaters, and move on?

Mike Murray

2009-11-14

This is almost correct. The issue is the amount of benefit. It is nowhere near 1%. It may be 0% or even a negative number.

Just to be clear, it is still against the rules and still should be punished according to the rules. I just think that we need to not invest these substances with properties they don't have. Doing that only encourages use.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Long
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:48:04
To: ; Obra
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Kenny Williams

This exchange is truly amazing to me. A group of people who obsess over whether tubulars or tubeless tires will give them an edge, over whether a disc wheel or an aero helmet will save more time, and which brand of sports drink will make that sliver of a difference between 5th place and winning are actually suggesting that the performance enhancers that one of its own was taking didn't really matter.

Are we delusional? Can we just not do math? Is that our proplem?

Let's pretend that the dope only gave Kenny a 1% gain in average output. 1% seems insignificant, but that difference is huge in this sport. Beyond huge. That's hundreds of feet in a Crit. That's a mile at a State Championship Road Race. Everybody who's ever been 2nd to Kenny for a prime has to be really pissed off right now.

"It was eleven more than neccessary." — Jacques Anquetil, after winning a race by twelve seconds.

To: obra@list.obra.org
From: mike.murray@obra.org
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:38:04 +0000
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Kenny Williams

Having a positive for DHEA is not like the scenario that Steve describes. It is more like getting caught shop lifting some candy. That would not be evidence of having robbed a bank. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
From: STEVEN R HOLLAND
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:23:56 -0800 (PST)To: ; OBRA remailerSubject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Kenny Williams

Come on Mike. I guess you think if two guys with guns run out of a bank and jump into a car and speed away doesn't mean they just robbed the bank either????

STEVEN R HOLLAND
17203 SE 30TH ST
VANCOUVER,WA 98683
C(360) 600-2702

From: Mike Murray
To: OBRA remailer
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 2:20:13 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Kenny Williams

So what if he only took DHEA? Just having taken this over the counter "food supplement" does not necessarily mean he took anything else. Since these drugs are not very effective at increasing performance you can't rationally use high performance as a predictor of substance use.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Long
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:16:22
To: ; ; Obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Kenny Williams

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Erik Long

2009-11-13