protocol

Evan Plews

2009-11-17

I don't have a clue as to the situation Sunday because that is up to the folks who were racing...

That being said I will let you know how things generally work since I have been in that spot a few times. On the road crashes often happen that take down riders who have nothing to to with the cause. They also happen because the is a whole bunch of people riding too close together and sometime from causes outside riders' control bottles, mussettes, dogs, cars, other junk on the road. That is why it is a shame to flee the scene if other contenders are caught up in it.
On the dirt it is quite a lot different because riding skill is often the difference between winning and losing. Stackage is often the result of poor skill and risky riding--just like flat tires. Now sometimes there are cases where riders get taken down by one another or lapped traffic in which case most of us will call a momentary truce and continue together in the spirit of fair play. Of course there is always the case of the major yardsale when the likelyhood of serious injury or death may be upon us in which case the racing no longer matters. Otherwise when dirt is the playing field crashing is a great way to lose a race and it happens all the time. If you wait for someone to get up and beat you of course that is just fine too!
Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

-----Original Message-----
From: Brooke Hoyer
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:08:28
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] protocol

I think it has a lot to do with how you want to win. Do you want to win because of someone else's misfortune? Or are you more concerned with who is strongest and/or the most wily. For Molly, I think it was the latter. I can think of some scenarios where she doesn't wait though.

With respect to the anecdote about the masters racer and the junior ... I doubt that I would have stopped in that situation either. I have no medical/first aid training. There were other people better able to assist. I'd have been one more person standing around not doing anything. I might even have be a distraction. Again, there are circumstances where I stop. But this example probably wouldn't be one of them.

Brooke Hoyer

> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:38:58 -0800
> From: shane@wickedar.com
> To: tackyglueit@gmail.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] protocol
>
> tackyglueit wrote:
> > No disrespect intended here just wondering out loud....why did molly
> > wait for sean on the last lap this past Sunday? I can understand it in
> > a road race but not necessarily in a cross race.
>
> I've never done road racing, so I'm not sure why it would be
> understandable in a road race, and not a CX race ... but, I think that
> this only shows class. If someone goes down, it's only (decent) human
> nature to insure that person is okay. I know our society doesn't place
> much emphasis on this - indeed it seems to punish any good samaritan
> acts due to the litigious nature of our society...
>
> At the Willamette Valley races on the 7th, I watched a Cat B or Masters
> racer run into a 13 year old kid, who crashed, hard. The racer looked
> back, recognized the 13 year old had gone down - and just took off.
> Right in front of the kids parents. Yes, the kid drifted a little to
> the left (enthusiastically waving to his parents), but the Cat B/Masters
> rider bombed past the kid without any verbal warning he was there ("Hey!
> On your left..."). And worse, just took off, because, of course - his
> race was far more important than a broken wrist, road rash, or damage he
> may have caused from his neglect. I don't know who you are buddy - but
> I hope are burning in shame ...
>
> In any case - I think it only highlights a decent human being. I don't
> know Molly personally, but I have gained additional respect for her
> because of it; especially in light of the intensely competitive nature
> and field in the As race...
>
> v/r
> Shane
>
> --
> Wicked Cyclocross
> http://wicked.cx/
>
> "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature,
> nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding
> danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life
> is either a daring adventure or nothing." ** Helen Keller **
>_______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Dan H

2009-11-17

Was it misfortune or lack of technical skill? Molly rode through the very same section and did not fall. To finish first, you must first finish.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brooke Hoyer
Cc: OBRA list
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] protocol

I think it has a lot to do with how you want to win. Do you want to win because of someone else's misfortune? Or are you more concerned with who is strongest and/or the most wily. For Molly, I think it was the latter. I can think of some scenarios where she doesn't wait though.

With respect to the anecdote about the masters racer and the junior ... I doubt that I would have stopped in that situation either. I have no medical/first aid training. There were other people better able to assist. I'd have been one more person standing around not doing anything. I might even have be a distraction. Again, there are circumstances where I stop. But this example probably wouldn't be one of them.

Brooke Hoyer

> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:38:58 -0800
> From: shane@wickedar.com
> To: tackyglueit@gmail.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] protocol
>
> tackyglueit wrote:
> > No disrespect intended here just wondering out loud……..why did molly
> > wait for sean on the last lap this past Sunday? I can understand it in
> > a road race but not necessarily in a cross race.
>
> I've never done road racing, so I'm not sure why it would be
> understandable in a road race, and not a CX race ... but, I think that
> this only shows class. If someone goes down, it's only (decent) human
> nature to insure that person is okay. I know our society doesn't place
> much emphasis on this - indeed it seems to punish any good samaritan
> acts due to the litigious nature of our society...
>
> At the Willamette Valley races on the 7th, I watched a Cat B or Masters
> racer run into a 13 year old kid, who crashed, hard. The racer looked
> back, recognized the 13 year old had gone down - and just took off.
> Right in front of the kids parents. Yes, the kid drifted a little to
> the left (enthusiastically waving to his parents), but the Cat B/Masters
> rider bombed past the kid without any verbal warning he was there ("Hey!
> On your left..."). And worse, just took off, because, of course - his
> race was far more important than a broken wrist, road rash, or damage he
> may have caused from his neglect. I don't know who you are buddy - but
> I hope are burning in shame ...
>
> In any case - I think it only highlights a decent human being. I don't
> know Molly personally, but I have gained additional respect for her
> because of it; especially in light of the intensely competitive nature
> and field in the As race...
>
> v/r
> Shane
>
> --
> Wicked Cyclocross
> http://wicked.cx/
>
> "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature,
> nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding
> danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life
> is either a daring adventure or nothing." ** Helen Keller **
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Brooke Hoyer

2009-11-17

I think it has a lot to do with how you want to win. Do you want to win because of someone else's misfortune? Or are you more concerned with who is strongest and/or the most wily. For Molly, I think it was the latter. I can think of some scenarios where she doesn't wait though.
With respect to the anecdote about the masters racer and the junior ... I doubt that I would have stopped in that situation either. I have no medical/first aid training. There were other people better able to assist. I'd have been one more person standing around not doing anything. I might even have be a distraction. Again, there are circumstances where I stop. But this example probably wouldn't be one of them.
Brooke Hoyer

> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:38:58 -0800
> From: shane@wickedar.com
> To: tackyglueit@gmail.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] protocol
>
> tackyglueit wrote:
> > No disrespect intended here just wondering out loud……..why did molly
> > wait for sean on the last lap this past Sunday? I can understand it in
> > a road race but not necessarily in a cross race.
>
> I've never done road racing, so I'm not sure why it would be
> understandable in a road race, and not a CX race ... but, I think that
> this only shows class. If someone goes down, it's only (decent) human
> nature to insure that person is okay. I know our society doesn't place
> much emphasis on this - indeed it seems to punish any good samaritan
> acts due to the litigious nature of our society...
>
> At the Willamette Valley races on the 7th, I watched a Cat B or Masters
> racer run into a 13 year old kid, who crashed, hard. The racer looked
> back, recognized the 13 year old had gone down - and just took off.
> Right in front of the kids parents. Yes, the kid drifted a little to
> the left (enthusiastically waving to his parents), but the Cat B/Masters
> rider bombed past the kid without any verbal warning he was there ("Hey!
> On your left..."). And worse, just took off, because, of course - his
> race was far more important than a broken wrist, road rash, or damage he
> may have caused from his neglect. I don't know who you are buddy - but
> I hope are burning in shame ...
>
> In any case - I think it only highlights a decent human being. I don't
> know Molly personally, but I have gained additional respect for her
> because of it; especially in light of the intensely competitive nature
> and field in the As race...
>
> v/r
> Shane
>
> --
> Wicked Cyclocross
> http://wicked.cx/
>
> "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature,
> nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding
> danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life
> is either a daring adventure or nothing." ** Helen Keller **
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Maximillian Kirchoff

2009-11-17

I do know Molly, and she is about as classy and caring as you can get. From
shop customers to fellow racers to strangers, Molly extends every bit of
courtesy and kindness. It's also about sportsmanship, something that many
pro racers have taught themselves, and something that Molly is very good at.
The ability to train so hard, commit so much time and energy, and have a
series win slip between your fingers on a bad remount. And then to wake up
the next morning, eat a vegan pastry, and get back to training.

Molly is really the only one who knows if her hesitation was a gut reaction
or a careful decision...but it doesn't really matter to me. Molly remains an
excellent person, deserving the respect and admiration I give her.

P.S. Please don't think I was implying that any other of the racers are
anything but decent. They are all great people.

______________{ :)
Max Kirchoff
(503) 770-0629
max@maxisnow.com
http://www.maxisnow.com
http://portfolio.maxisnow.com

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Shane Y. Gibson wrote:

> tackyglueit wrote:
> > No disrespect intended here just wondering out loud……..why did molly
> > wait for sean on the last lap this past Sunday? I can understand it in
> > a road race but not necessarily in a cross race.
>
> I've never done road racing, so I'm not sure why it would be
> understandable in a road race, and not a CX race ... but, I think that
> this only shows class. If someone goes down, it's only (decent) human
> nature to insure that person is okay. I know our society doesn't place
> much emphasis on this - indeed it seems to punish any good samaritan
> acts due to the litigious nature of our society...
>
> At the Willamette Valley races on the 7th, I watched a Cat B or Masters
> racer run into a 13 year old kid, who crashed, hard. The racer looked
> back, recognized the 13 year old had gone down - and just took off.
> Right in front of the kids parents. Yes, the kid drifted a little to
> the left (enthusiastically waving to his parents), but the Cat B/Masters
> rider bombed past the kid without any verbal warning he was there ("Hey!
> On your left..."). And worse, just took off, because, of course - his
> race was far more important than a broken wrist, road rash, or damage he
> may have caused from his neglect. I don't know who you are buddy - but
> I hope are burning in shame ...
>
> In any case - I think it only highlights a decent human being. I don't
> know Molly personally, but I have gained additional respect for her
> because of it; especially in light of the intensely competitive nature
> and field in the As race...
>
> v/r
> Shane
>
> --
> Wicked Cyclocross
> http://wicked.cx/
>
> "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature,
> nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding
> danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life
> is either a daring adventure or nothing." ** Helen Keller **
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Shane Y. Gibson

2009-11-17

tackyglueit wrote:
> No disrespect intended here just wondering out loud……..why did molly
> wait for sean on the last lap this past Sunday? I can understand it in
> a road race but not necessarily in a cross race.

I've never done road racing, so I'm not sure why it would be
understandable in a road race, and not a CX race ... but, I think that
this only shows class. If someone goes down, it's only (decent) human
nature to insure that person is okay. I know our society doesn't place
much emphasis on this - indeed it seems to punish any good samaritan
acts due to the litigious nature of our society...

At the Willamette Valley races on the 7th, I watched a Cat B or Masters
racer run into a 13 year old kid, who crashed, hard. The racer looked
back, recognized the 13 year old had gone down - and just took off.
Right in front of the kids parents. Yes, the kid drifted a little to
the left (enthusiastically waving to his parents), but the Cat B/Masters
rider bombed past the kid without any verbal warning he was there ("Hey!
On your left..."). And worse, just took off, because, of course - his
race was far more important than a broken wrist, road rash, or damage he
may have caused from his neglect. I don't know who you are buddy - but
I hope are burning in shame ...

In any case - I think it only highlights a decent human being. I don't
know Molly personally, but I have gained additional respect for her
because of it; especially in light of the intensely competitive nature
and field in the As race...

v/r
Shane

--
Wicked Cyclocross
http://wicked.cx/

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature,
nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding
danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life
is either a daring adventure or nothing." ** Helen Keller **


Erik Voldengen

2009-11-17

Because she is too nice. I've never seen anyone wait for someone in a
crash. Says a lot, doesn't it?

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 3:13 PM, tackyglueit wrote:

> No disrespect intended here just wondering out loud……..why did molly wait
> for sean on the last lap this past Sunday? I can understand it in a road
> race but not necessarily in a cross race.
>
>
>
> Thanks much.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


tackyglueit

2009-11-17

No disrespect intended here just wondering out loud……..why did molly wait
for sean on the last lap this past Sunday? I can understand it in a road
race but not necessarily in a cross race.

Thanks much.