OBRA: OBRA Chat: Missing the point, aren't we?

Damian S.

2009-12-16

I just did some awesome races outside of OBRA. Awesome courses, promoters, participants, fans and volunteers. Super quick results and photos online. Multiple weekends in 3 different states...even meeting up for beers after. Sounds familiar right? Right, but they were all USAC events. USAC doesn't make people jerks and OBRA doesn't make them saints. We are super fortunate, but there are just as hard working people involved in other cycling organizations and they all want to better the cycling community.

More positive Ron Strasser attitude and less we do no wrong USAC is the devil attitude. Wasn't cross nats amazing? How about the positive impact on the local economy that a USAC event, put on by OBRA members, had! If you missed it, you missed the best race energy that I've ever been involved with, whether OBRA or USAC, Portland, Colorado or the East Coast. It was unbelievable and it took a lot of people to pull it off. Thanks to all involved.

Damian

On Wed Dec 16th, 2009 3:15 PM PST yennes@aol.com wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>It doesn't surprise me that some people got injured by other riders at Cross Nationals. I was bumped by almost
>every rider that I passed or got passed by. In OBRA we respect each other and the racing is safe and courteous. In other parts of the country it's more like roller derby where cheap shots, blocking and rude riding are the order of the day.
>
>Another reason the OBRA community should be proud.
>
>Yenne
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Erik Long
>To: mike.murray@obra.org; Obra
>Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:12 pm
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Missing the point, aren't we?
>
>
>I think the point that Geoff was originally making was not particularly about the medical bills (although that does suck big time), but the cause of those bills. Geoff would not have the bills to pay if a certain someone had not made a more-than-questionable move that forced him into a barrier and caused some very serious injuries. That was the point. Our profit-based medical system making matters worse is purely incidental.
>
>Insured or not, actions like this cause a lot of unnecessary suffering. Hell, I have accident insurance, but no amount of insurance can heal a spinal chord. My own brother sustained some unfortunate injuries in his youth that have turned out to be permanent, regardless of the care available to him.
>
>The point in all of this is not to ridicule a victim for spending his money on things like food and rent instead of a potentially useless insurance policy (let's face it, many of us could be wasting our money on false hope if our insurance companies truly had their way), but instead to ridicule a**holes who put other people at risk in the interest of holding on to 40th place in an age-group race.
>
>-Erik
>
>From: mike.murray@obra.org
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:39:26 -0800
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>
>
>A cost effective way for a healthy young person to protect themselves against large medical losses is to purchase an accident/injury plan like the Adventure Advocates plan as well as a large deductible major medical plan. The combined premiums are much lower than you would think. This will not pay for routine medical expenses but it will pay for injuries, which is a healthy person's greatest risk. You risk losing the amount of the deductible if you get a medical illness but at least you won't have to declare bankruptcy because you get ill, as we all eventually will. More importantly, you will then be able to pay the discounted insurance prices for medical care rather than the wildly inflated and mostly imaginary "sticker" prices.
>Mike Murray
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan H
>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 22:31 PM
>To: geoff huber; obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>Geoff,
>I don't know you but I hate to hear of anyone getting injured. I've tried it
>myself a few times and didn't like it. Unfortunately it's too late for you
>but perhaps others can benefit from your experience. I recently discovered
>an inexpensive accident insurance. For $49 a month, you get an ambulance or
>life flight ride and the first $5000 of your accident covered. The web site
>has different numbers but they will change at the end of the year. More
>premium and less coverage but I think still a good deal. They also offer
>conventional health insurance that can pick up where the accident insurance
>leaves off. The accident insurance covers you if you are in an accident
>riding your bike, driving a car or even if you get hit by a falling piano
>while walking. It does not cover you skiing, motorcycling or riding a
>motorized ATV.
>http://www.adventureadvocates.com/IMBA/
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "geoff huber"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:42 PM
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>
>
>>I hope everyone had a blast this weekend and made it home safe. I have
>>been racing in Oregon since 93' and I feel very fortunate to be an avid
>>member of OBRA. Just two weeks ago I was interviewed after a local cross
>>race in Eugene and was asked "why do you race cross?" One of my answers
>>was.."because of the comradeship between my fellow racers." I have never
>>had a negative experience with any other racer....until this weekend. The
>>Masters 30-34 class contained a lot if local (Oregon) guys and I was
>>excited to compete in my first National Champs. After flatting on the
>>first lap I knew I could not expect great things...but hey this was the
>>National Championships and I was going to race like hell no matter what.
>>With three laps to go I had worked my way up to mid pack. I eventually
>>caught a group of four riders and had picked off three of them by the time
>>we hit the infield side if the pit area. Now anyone at this race knows
>>that there was ample space to pass on either
>> side of the pit. As the last rider from the group and I came into the
>> straight away we were in the middle if the lane and I jumped out of the
>> sadddle to pass on the right. As I came even with the other rider he
>> steered me into the metal barrier/fencing in an attempt to prevent me from
>> passing. I crashed into the pit fencing at speed and I sustained the
>> following injuries: Broken sternum, two broken fingers..one if them was a
>> compound fracture, severe knee contusion, and whiplash. I just spent the
>> last two days in the hospital racking up thousands of dollars in uninsured
>> medical bills...and missed my start in the Elite Class on Sunday. I
>> needed all the fancy tests and x-rays to make sure I didn't do any
>> permanent damage to my lungs or heart. I want to let this individual know
>> that not only am I totally f@$%ed for the next couple of months and now
>> have an insane pile of debt...but my injuries now prevent me from starting
>> a much needed new job. This all for a mid-pack f
>> inish. There is not much I can do now...I just hope that the person
>> responsible for this now understands that his actions on the race course
>> will linger in my life for months. There is no doubt this was an
>> intentional act and I welcome input from all that read this. One bright
>> note out of all this is that Cross Nats will be in Bend again next year
>> and I will get another shot. As I sit here and write this, all I think
>> about is that moment when I will be able to get back on my bike and start
>> training for next season. I would not wish these injuries on anyone...it
>> really, really sucks. Geoff Huber
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now. =
>
>_______________________________________________
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>bra@list.obra.org
>ttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>nsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Brent Chapman

2009-12-16

I am not sure I would assume that Geoff was skipping paying for potentially
crappy insurance to pay for food and rent.. doesn't seem a logical argument
if he spending money on trip gas fees and paying 2 race entry fees at a
national event. but thats just my thought pattern..

However, yes the primary point is no one should be crashed out. The USAC
officials should of looked into it as that person would be suspended if
caught. Pretty sure there were officials in that pit zone.

I will say this, my wife was injured pretty seriously a few years back at a
USAC sanctioned event and we incurred no costs and did not even have to use
our own insurance. If your going to race non OBRA events, read the info you
get freely when you buy your license.

bc

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Erik Long wrote:

> I think the point that Geoff was originally making was not particularly
> about the medical bills (although that does suck big time), but the cause of
> those bills. Geoff would not have the bills to pay if a certain someone had
> not made a more-than-questionable move that forced him into a barrier and
> caused some very serious injuries. That was the point. Our profit-based
> medical system making matters worse is purely incidental.
>
> Insured or not, actions like this cause a lot of unnecessary suffering.
> Hell, I have accident insurance, but no amount of insurance can heal a
> spinal chord. My own brother sustained some unfortunate injuries in his
> youth that have turned out to be permanent, regardless of the care available
> to him.
>
> The point in all of this is not to ridicule a victim for spending his money
> on things like food and rent instead of a potentially useless insurance
> policy (let's face it, many of us could be wasting our money on false hope
> if our insurance companies truly had their way), but instead to ridicule
> a**holes who put other people at risk in the interest of holding on to 40th
> place in an age-group race.
>
> -Erik
>
> ------------------------------
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:39:26 -0800
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>
> A cost effective way for a healthy young person to protect themselves
> against large medical losses is to purchase an accident/injury plan like
> the Adventure Advocates plan as well as a large deductible major medical
> plan. The combined premiums are much lower than you would think. This
> will not pay for routine medical expenses but it will pay for injuries,
> which is a healthy person's greatest risk. You risk losing the amount of
> the deductible if you get a medical illness but at least you won't have to
> declare bankruptcy because you get ill, as we all eventually will. More
> importantly, you will then be able to pay the discounted insurance prices
> for medical care rather than the wildly inflated and mostly imaginary
> "sticker" prices.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Dan H
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 22:31 PM
> To: geoff huber; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>
> Geoff,
>
> I don't know you but I hate to hear of anyone getting injured. I've tried
> it
>
> myself a few times and didn't like it. Unfortunately it's too late for you
>
> but perhaps others can benefit from your experience. I recently discovered
>
> an inexpensive accident insurance. For $49 a month, you get an ambulance or
>
>
> life flight ride and the first $5000 of your accident covered. The web site
>
>
> has different numbers but they will change at the end of the year. More
>
> premium and less coverage but I think still a good deal. They also offer
>
> conventional health insurance that can pick up where the accident insurance
>
>
> leaves off. The accident insurance covers you if you are in an accident
>
> riding your bike, driving a car or even if you get hit by a falling piano
>
> while walking. It does not cover you skiing, motorcycling or riding a
>
> motorized ATV.
>
> http://www.adventureadvocates.com/IMBA/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "geoff huber"
>
> To:
>
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:42 PM
>
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>
> >I hope everyone had a blast this weekend and made it home safe. I have
>
> >been racing in Oregon since 93' and I feel very fortunate to be an avid
>
> >member of OBRA. Just two weeks ago I was interviewed after a local cross
>
> >race in Eugene and was asked "why do you race cross?" One of my answers
>
> >was.."because of the comradeship between my fellow racers." I have never
>
> >had a negative experience with any other racer....until this weekend. The
>
>
> >Masters 30-34 class contained a lot if local (Oregon) guys and I was
>
> >excited to compete in my first National Champs. After flatting on the
>
> >first lap I knew I could not expect great things...but hey this was the
>
> >National Championships and I was going to race like hell no matter what.
>
> >With three laps to go I had worked my way up to mid pack. I eventually
>
> >caught a group of four riders and had picked off three of them by the time
>
>
> >we hit the infield side if the pit area. Now anyone at this race knows
>
> >that there was ample space to pass on either
>
> > side of the pit. As the last rider from the group and I came into the
>
> > straight away we were in the middle if the lane and I jumped out of the
>
> > sadddle to pass on the right. As I came even with the other rider he
>
> > steered me into the metal barrier/fencing in an attempt to prevent me
> from
>
> > passing. I crashed into the pit fencing at speed and I sustained the
>
> > following injuries: Broken sternum, two broken fingers..one if them was
> a
>
> > compound fracture, severe knee contusion, and whiplash. I just spent the
>
>
> > last two days in the hospital racking up thousands of dollars in
> uninsured
>
> > medical bills...and missed my start in the Elite Class on Sunday. I
>
> > needed all the fancy tests and x-rays to make sure I didn't do any
>
> > permanent damage to my lungs or heart. I want to let this individual
> know
>
> > that not only am I totally f@$%ed for the next couple of months and now
>
> > have an insane pile of debt...but my injuries now prevent me from
> starting
>
> > a much needed new job. This all for a mid-pack f
>
> > inish. There is not much I can do now...I just hope that the person
>
> > responsible for this now understands that his actions on the race course
>
> > will linger in my life for months. There is no doubt this was an
>
> > intentional act and I welcome input from all that read this. One bright
>
> > note out of all this is that Cross Nats will be in Bend again next year
>
> > and I will get another shot. As I sit here and write this, all I think
>
> > about is that moment when I will be able to get back on my bike and
> start
>
> > training for next season. I would not wish these injuries on anyone...it
>
>
> > really, really sucks. Geoff Huber
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > OBRA mailing list
>
> > obra@list.obra.org
>
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> OBRA mailing list
>
> obra@list.obra.org
>
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

yennes@aol.com

2009-12-16

It doesn't surprise me that some people got injured by other riders at Cross Nationals. I was bumped by almost
every rider that I passed or got passed by. In OBRA we respect each other and the racing is safe and courteous. In other parts of the country it's more like roller derby where cheap shots, blocking and rude riding are the order of the day.

Another reason the OBRA community should be proud.

Yenne

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Long
To: mike.murray@obra.org; Obra
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:12 pm
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Missing the point, aren't we?

I think the point that Geoff was originally making was not particularly about the medical bills (although that does suck big time), but the cause of those bills. Geoff would not have the bills to pay if a certain someone had not made a more-than-questionable move that forced him into a barrier and caused some very serious injuries. That was the point. Our profit-based medical system making matters worse is purely incidental.

Insured or not, actions like this cause a lot of unnecessary suffering. Hell, I have accident insurance, but no amount of insurance can heal a spinal chord. My own brother sustained some unfortunate injuries in his youth that have turned out to be permanent, regardless of the care available to him.

The point in all of this is not to ridicule a victim for spending his money on things like food and rent instead of a potentially useless insurance policy (let's face it, many of us could be wasting our money on false hope if our insurance companies truly had their way), but instead to ridicule a**holes who put other people at risk in the interest of holding on to 40th place in an age-group race.

-Erik

From: mike.murray@obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:39:26 -0800
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

A cost effective way for a healthy young person to protect themselves against large medical losses is to purchase an accident/injury plan like the Adventure Advocates plan as well as a large deductible major medical plan. The combined premiums are much lower than you would think. This will not pay for routine medical expenses but it will pay for injuries, which is a healthy person's greatest risk. You risk losing the amount of the deductible if you get a medical illness but at least you won't have to declare bankruptcy because you get ill, as we all eventually will. More importantly, you will then be able to pay the discounted insurance prices for medical care rather than the wildly inflated and mostly imaginary "sticker" prices.
Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan H
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 22:31 PM
To: geoff huber; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
Geoff,
I don't know you but I hate to hear of anyone getting injured. I've tried it
myself a few times and didn't like it. Unfortunately it's too late for you
but perhaps others can benefit from your experience. I recently discovered
an inexpensive accident insurance. For $49 a month, you get an ambulance or
life flight ride and the first $5000 of your accident covered. The web site
has different numbers but they will change at the end of the year. More
premium and less coverage but I think still a good deal. They also offer
conventional health insurance that can pick up where the accident insurance
leaves off. The accident insurance covers you if you are in an accident
riding your bike, driving a car or even if you get hit by a falling piano
while walking. It does not cover you skiing, motorcycling or riding a
motorized ATV.
http://www.adventureadvocates.com/IMBA/
----- Original Message -----
From: "geoff huber"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:42 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

>I hope everyone had a blast this weekend and made it home safe. I have
>been racing in Oregon since 93' and I feel very fortunate to be an avid
>member of OBRA. Just two weeks ago I was interviewed after a local cross
>race in Eugene and was asked "why do you race cross?" One of my answers
>was.."because of the comradeship between my fellow racers." I have never
>had a negative experience with any other racer....until this weekend. The
>Masters 30-34 class contained a lot if local (Oregon) guys and I was
>excited to compete in my first National Champs. After flatting on the
>first lap I knew I could not expect great things...but hey this was the
>National Championships and I was going to race like hell no matter what.
>With three laps to go I had worked my way up to mid pack. I eventually
>caught a group of four riders and had picked off three of them by the time
>we hit the infield side if the pit area. Now anyone at this race knows
>that there was ample space to pass on either
> side of the pit. As the last rider from the group and I came into the
> straight away we were in the middle if the lane and I jumped out of the
> sadddle to pass on the right. As I came even with the other rider he
> steered me into the metal barrier/fencing in an attempt to prevent me from
> passing. I crashed into the pit fencing at speed and I sustained the
> following injuries: Broken sternum, two broken fingers..one if them was a
> compound fracture, severe knee contusion, and whiplash. I just spent the
> last two days in the hospital racking up thousands of dollars in uninsured
> medical bills...and missed my start in the Elite Class on Sunday. I
> needed all the fancy tests and x-rays to make sure I didn't do any
> permanent damage to my lungs or heart. I want to let this individual know
> that not only am I totally f@$%ed for the next couple of months and now
> have an insane pile of debt...but my injuries now prevent me from starting
> a much needed new job. This all for a mid-pack f
> inish. There is not much I can do now...I just hope that the person
> responsible for this now understands that his actions on the race course
> will linger in my life for months. There is no doubt this was an
> intentional act and I welcome input from all that read this. One bright
> note out of all this is that Cross Nats will be in Bend again next year
> and I will get another shot. As I sit here and write this, all I think
> about is that moment when I will be able to get back on my bike and start
> training for next season. I would not wish these injuries on anyone...it
> really, really sucks. Geoff Huber
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now. =

_______________________________________________
BRA mailing list
bra@list.obra.org
ttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
nsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

yennes@aol.com

2009-12-16

It doesn't surprise me that some people got injured by other riders at Cross Nationals. I was bumped by almost
every rider that I passed or got passed by. In OBRA we respect each other and the racing is safe and courteous. In other parts of the country it's more like roller derby where cheap shots, blocking and rude riding are the order of the day.

Another reason the OBRA community should be proud.

Yenne

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Long
To: mike.murray@obra.org; Obra
Sent: Wed, Dec 16, 2009 2:12 pm
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Missing the point, aren't we?

I think the point that Geoff was originally making was not particularly about the medical bills (although that does suck big time), but the cause of those bills. Geoff would not have the bills to pay if a certain someone had not made a more-than-questionable move that forced him into a barrier and caused some very serious injuries. That was the point. Our profit-based medical system making matters worse is purely incidental.

Insured or not, actions like this cause a lot of unnecessary suffering. Hell, I have accident insurance, but no amount of insurance can heal a spinal chord. My own brother sustained some unfortunate injuries in his youth that have turned out to be permanent, regardless of the care available to him.

The point in all of this is not to ridicule a victim for spending his money on things like food and rent instead of a potentially useless insurance policy (let's face it, many of us could be wasting our money on false hope if our insurance companies truly had their way), but instead to ridicule a**holes who put other people at risk in the interest of holding on to 40th place in an age-group race.

-Erik

From: mike.murray@obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:39:26 -0800
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

A cost effective way for a healthy young person to protect themselves against large medical losses is to purchase an accident/injury plan like the Adventure Advocates plan as well as a large deductible major medical plan. The combined premiums are much lower than you would think. This will not pay for routine medical expenses but it will pay for injuries, which is a healthy person's greatest risk. You risk losing the amount of the deductible if you get a medical illness but at least you won't have to declare bankruptcy because you get ill, as we all eventually will. More importantly, you will then be able to pay the discounted insurance prices for medical care rather than the wildly inflated and mostly imaginary "sticker" prices.
Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan H
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 22:31 PM
To: geoff huber; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
Geoff,
I don't know you but I hate to hear of anyone getting injured. I've tried it
myself a few times and didn't like it. Unfortunately it's too late for you
but perhaps others can benefit from your experience. I recently discovered
an inexpensive accident insurance. For $49 a month, you get an ambulance or
life flight ride and the first $5000 of your accident covered. The web site
has different numbers but they will change at the end of the year. More
premium and less coverage but I think still a good deal. They also offer
conventional health insurance that can pick up where the accident insurance
leaves off. The accident insurance covers you if you are in an accident
riding your bike, driving a car or even if you get hit by a falling piano
while walking. It does not cover you skiing, motorcycling or riding a
motorized ATV.
http://www.adventureadvocates.com/IMBA/
----- Original Message -----
From: "geoff huber"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:42 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

>I hope everyone had a blast this weekend and made it home safe. I have
>been racing in Oregon since 93' and I feel very fortunate to be an avid
>member of OBRA. Just two weeks ago I was interviewed after a local cross
>race in Eugene and was asked "why do you race cross?" One of my answers
>was.."because of the comradeship between my fellow racers." I have never
>had a negative experience with any other racer....until this weekend. The
>Masters 30-34 class contained a lot if local (Oregon) guys and I was
>excited to compete in my first National Champs. After flatting on the
>first lap I knew I could not expect great things...but hey this was the
>National Championships and I was going to race like hell no matter what.
>With three laps to go I had worked my way up to mid pack. I eventually
>caught a group of four riders and had picked off three of them by the time
>we hit the infield side if the pit area. Now anyone at this race knows
>that there was ample space to pass on either
> side of the pit. As the last rider from the group and I came into the
> straight away we were in the middle if the lane and I jumped out of the
> sadddle to pass on the right. As I came even with the other rider he
> steered me into the metal barrier/fencing in an attempt to prevent me from
> passing. I crashed into the pit fencing at speed and I sustained the
> following injuries: Broken sternum, two broken fingers..one if them was a
> compound fracture, severe knee contusion, and whiplash. I just spent the
> last two days in the hospital racking up thousands of dollars in uninsured
> medical bills...and missed my start in the Elite Class on Sunday. I
> needed all the fancy tests and x-rays to make sure I didn't do any
> permanent damage to my lungs or heart. I want to let this individual know
> that not only am I totally f@$%ed for the next couple of months and now
> have an insane pile of debt...but my injuries now prevent me from starting
> a much needed new job. This all for a mid-pack f
> inish. There is not much I can do now...I just hope that the person
> responsible for this now understands that his actions on the race course
> will linger in my life for months. There is no doubt this was an
> intentional act and I welcome input from all that read this. One bright
> note out of all this is that Cross Nats will be in Bend again next year
> and I will get another shot. As I sit here and write this, all I think
> about is that moment when I will be able to get back on my bike and start
> training for next season. I would not wish these injuries on anyone...it
> really, really sucks. Geoff Huber
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
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http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Robert Anderson

2009-12-16

It is reasonable to assume a rider is going to defend their position,
whether it's 39th, 1st, or 100th. But it is not reasonable, fair, or
acceptable to put another rider in danger. If you want to sprint for 39th,
then sprint for 39th, but don't drive another rider into the barriers.
Unsafe riding is against the rules, whether or not it causes a crash.
-Rob A

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Chris Alling wrote:

> I think that the point being made is that it was a race and he put
> himself at great physical risk for being in the race to begin with. All
> people are racing a race from 1st to 200th. Geoff himself admitted that
> he was sprinting for 40th place was he not racing at that point? It is
> reasonable to assume that the person in 39th is going to defend his
> position and race. He also put himself at great financial risk and assumed
> the responsibility for that risk by not having insurance.
>
>
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Erik Long
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 16, 2009 2:13 PM
> *To:* mike.murray@obra.org; Obra
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Missing the point, aren't we?
>
>
>
> I think the point that Geoff was originally making was not particularly
> about the medical bills (although that does suck big time), but the cause of
> those bills. Geoff would not have the bills to pay if a certain someone had
> not made a more-than-questionable move that forced him into a barrier and
> caused some very serious injuries. That was the point. Our profit-based
> medical system making matters worse is purely incidental.
>
> Insured or not, actions like this cause a lot of unnecessary suffering.
> Hell, I have accident insurance, but no amount of insurance can heal a
> spinal chord. My own brother sustained some unfortunate injuries in his
> youth that have turned out to be permanent, regardless of the care available
> to him.
>
> The point in all of this is not to ridicule a victim for spending his money
> on things like food and rent instead of a potentially useless insurance
> policy (let's face it, many of us could be wasting our money on false hope
> if our insurance companies truly had their way), but instead to ridicule
> a**holes who put other people at risk in the interest of holding on to 40th
> place in an age-group race.
>
> -Erik
> ------------------------------
>
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:39:26 -0800
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>
> A cost effective way for a healthy young person to protect themselves
> against large medical losses is to purchase an accident/injury plan like
> the Adventure Advocates plan as well as a large deductible major medical
> plan. The combined premiums are much lower than you would think. This
> will not pay for routine medical expenses but it will pay for injuries,
> which is a healthy person's greatest risk. You risk losing the amount of
> the deductible if you get a medical illness but at least you won't have to
> declare bankruptcy because you get ill, as we all eventually will. More
> importantly, you will then be able to pay the discounted insurance prices
> for medical care rather than the wildly inflated and mostly imaginary
> "sticker" prices.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
> On Behalf Of Dan H
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 22:31 PM
> To: geoff huber; obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>
> Geoff,
>
> I don't know you but I hate to hear of anyone getting injured. I've tried
> it
>
> myself a few times and didn't like it. Unfortunately it's too late for you
>
> but perhaps others can benefit from your experience. I recently discovered
>
> an inexpensive accident insurance. For $49 a month, you get an ambulance or
>
>
> life flight ride and the first $5000 of your accident covered. The web site
>
>
> has different numbers but they will change at the end of the year. More
>
> premium and less coverage but I think still a good deal. They also offer
>
> conventional health insurance that can pick up where the accident insurance
>
>
> leaves off. The accident insurance covers you if you are in an accident
>
> riding your bike, driving a car or even if you get hit by a falling piano
>
> while walking. It does not cover you skiing, motorcycling or riding a
>
> motorized ATV.
>
> http://www.adventureadvocates.com/IMBA/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "geoff huber"
>
> To:
>
> Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:42 PM
>
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash
>
>
>
> >I hope everyone had a blast this weekend and made it home safe. I have
>
> >been racing in Oregon since 93' and I feel very fortunate to be an avid
>
> >member of OBRA. Just two weeks ago I was interviewed after a local cross
>
> >race in Eugene and was asked "why do you race cross?" One of my answers
>
> >was.."because of the comradeship between my fellow racers." I have never
>
> >had a negative experience with any other racer....until this weekend. The
>
>
> >Masters 30-34 class contained a lot if local (Oregon) guys and I was
>
> >excited to compete in my first National Champs. After flatting on the
>
> >first lap I knew I could not expect great things...but hey this was the
>
> >National Championships and I was going to race like hell no matter what.
>
> >With three laps to go I had worked my way up to mid pack. I eventually
>
> >caught a group of four riders and had picked off three of them by the time
>
>
> >we hit the infield side if the pit area. Now anyone at this race knows
>
> >that there was ample space to pass on either
>
> > side of the pit. As the last rider from the group and I came into the
>
> > straight away we were in the middle if the lane and I jumped out of the
>
> > sadddle to pass on the right. As I came even with the other rider he
>
> > steered me into the metal barrier/fencing in an attempt to prevent me
> from
>
> > passing. I crashed into the pit fencing at speed and I sustained the
>
> > following injuries: Broken sternum, two broken fingers..one if them was
> a
>
> > compound fracture, severe knee contusion, and whiplash. I just spent the
>
>
> > last two days in the hospital racking up thousands of dollars in
> uninsured
>
> > medical bills...and missed my start in the Elite Class on Sunday. I
>
> > needed all the fancy tests and x-rays to make sure I didn't do any
>
> > permanent damage to my lungs or heart. I want to let this individual
> know
>
> > that not only am I totally f@$%ed for the next couple of months and now
>
> > have an insane pile of debt...but my injuries now prevent me from
> starting
>
> > a much needed new job. This all for a mid-pack f
>
> > inish. There is not much I can do now...I just hope that the person
>
> > responsible for this now understands that his actions on the race course
>
> > will linger in my life for months. There is no doubt this was an
>
> > intentional act and I welcome input from all that read this. One bright
>
> > note out of all this is that Cross Nats will be in Bend again next year
>
> > and I will get another shot. As I sit here and write this, all I think
>
> > about is that moment when I will be able to get back on my bike and
> start
>
> > training for next season. I would not wish these injuries on anyone...it
>
>
> > really, really sucks. Geoff Huber
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > OBRA mailing list
>
> > obra@list.obra.org
>
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> OBRA mailing list
>
> obra@list.obra.org
>
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it now.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Erik Long

2009-12-16

Yeah, tell me if you still feel that way when another rider forces YOU into something dense and immovable. It's one thing to take a risk, it's quite another for someone else to put you at risk. If I intentionally ran you into the curb, you'd be hurt, pissed, and you'd have every right to be because I would have wronged you.

There are assumed risks involved with bike racing, but broken bones because of another rider's irresponsible and deliberate maneuver are not among them.

From: calling64@msn.com
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:28:08 -0800
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Missing the point, aren't we?

RE: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

I think that the point being made is that it was a race and he put
himself at great physical risk for being in the race to begin with. All people
are racing a race from 1st to 200th. Geoff himself
admitted that he was sprinting for 40th place was he not racing at
that point? It is reasonable to assume that the person in 39th is
going to defend his position and race. He also put himself at great financial
risk and assumed the responsibility for that risk by not having insurance.

From:
obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Erik
Long

Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 2:13 PM

To: mike.murray@obra.org; Obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Missing the point, aren't we?

I think the point that Geoff was originally
making was not particularly about the medical bills (although that does suck
big time), but the cause of those bills. Geoff would not have the bills
to pay if a certain someone had not made a more-than-questionable move that
forced him into a barrier and caused some very serious injuries. That was
the point. Our profit-based medical system making matters worse is purely
incidental.

Insured or not, actions like this cause a lot of unnecessary suffering.
Hell, I have accident insurance, but no amount of insurance can heal a spinal
chord. My own brother sustained some unfortunate injuries in his youth
that have turned out to be permanent, regardless of the care available to him.

The point in all of this is not to ridicule a victim for spending his money on
things like food and rent instead of a potentially useless insurance policy
(let's face it, many of us could be wasting our money on false hope if our
insurance companies truly had their way), but instead to ridicule a**holes who
put other people at risk in the interest of holding on to 40th place in an
age-group race.

-Erik

From: mike.murray@obra.org

To: obra@list.obra.org

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:39:26 -0800

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

A cost
effective way for a healthy young person to protect themselves against large medical losses is to
purchase an
accident/injury plan like the Adventure Advocates plan
as well as a large deductible major medical plan. The combined premiums are much lower than you would
think. This will not pay for routine medical expenses but it will pay for
injuries, which is a healthy person's greatest risk. You risk losing the amount of the
deductible if you get a medical illness but at least you won't have to declare bankruptcy because you get ill,
as we all eventually will. More importantly, you will then be able to pay
the discounted insurance prices for medical care rather than the wildly
inflated and mostly imaginary "sticker" prices.

Mike
Murray

-----Original
Message-----

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
On Behalf Of Dan H

Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 22:31 PM

To: geoff huber; obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

Geoff,

I don't
know you but I hate to hear of anyone getting injured. I've tried it

myself a
few times and didn't like it. Unfortunately it's too late for you

but
perhaps others can benefit from your experience. I recently discovered

an
inexpensive accident insurance. For $49 a month, you get an ambulance or

life
flight ride and the first $5000 of your accident covered. The web site

has
different numbers but they will change at the end of the year. More

premium
and less coverage but I think still a good deal. They also offer

conventional
health insurance that can pick up where the accident insurance

leaves
off. The accident insurance covers you if you are in an accident

riding
your bike, driving a car or even if you get hit by a falling piano

while
walking. It does not cover you skiing, motorcycling or riding a

motorized
ATV.

http://www.adventureadvocates.com/IMBA/

-----
Original Message -----

From:
"geoff huber"

To:

Sent: Monday,
December 14, 2009 9:42 PM

Subject:
[OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

>I
hope everyone had a blast this weekend and made it home safe. I have

>been
racing in Oregon since 93' and I feel very fortunate to be an avid

>member
of OBRA. Just two weeks ago I was interviewed after a local cross

>race
in Eugene and was asked "why do you race cross?" One of my
answers

>was.."because
of the comradeship between my fellow racers." I have never

>had
a negative experience with any other racer....until this weekend. The

>Masters
30-34 class contained a lot if local (Oregon) guys and I was

>excited
to compete in my first National Champs. After flatting on the

>first
lap I knew I could not expect great things...but hey this was the

>National
Championships and I was going to race like hell no matter what.

>With
three laps to go I had worked my way up to mid pack. I eventually

>caught
a group of four riders and had picked off three of them by the time

>we
hit the infield side if the pit area. Now anyone at this race knows

>that
there was ample space to pass on either

>
side of the pit. As the last rider from the group and I came into the

>
straight away we were in the middle if the lane and I jumped out of the

>
sadddle to pass on the right. As I came even with the other rider he

>
steered me into the metal barrier/fencing in an attempt to prevent me from

>
passing. I crashed into the pit fencing at speed and I sustained the

>
following injuries: Broken sternum, two broken fingers..one if them was a

>
compound fracture, severe knee contusion, and whiplash. I just spent the

>
last two days in the hospital racking up thousands of dollars in uninsured

>
medical bills...and missed my start in the Elite Class on Sunday. I

>
needed all the fancy tests and x-rays to make sure I didn't do any

>
permanent damage to my lungs or heart. I want to let this individual know

>
that not only am I totally f@$%ed for the next couple of months and now

> have
an insane pile of debt...but my injuries now prevent me from starting

> a
much needed new job. This all for a mid-pack f

>
inish. There is not much I can do now...I just hope that the person

> responsible
for this now understands that his actions on the race course

>
will linger in my life for months. There is no doubt this was an

>
intentional act and I welcome input from all that read this. One bright

>
note out of all this is that Cross Nats will be in Bend again next year

> and
I will get another shot. As I sit here and write this, all I think

>
about is that moment when I will be able to get back on my bike and start

>
training for next season. I would not wish these injuries on anyone...it

>
really, really sucks. Geoff Huber

>
_______________________________________________

>
OBRA mailing list

>
obra@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

>
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA
mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe:
obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Hotmail:
Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it
now.

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Chris Alling

2009-12-16

I think that the point being made is that it was a race and he put himself
at great physical risk for being in the race to begin with. All people are
racing a race from 1st to 200th. Geoff himself admitted that he was
sprinting for 40th place was he not racing at that point? It is reasonable
to assume that the person in 39th is going to defend his position and race.
He also put himself at great financial risk and assumed the responsibility
for that risk by not having insurance.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Erik Long
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 2:13 PM
To: mike.murray@obra.org; Obra
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Missing the point, aren't we?

I think the point that Geoff was originally making was not particularly
about the medical bills (although that does suck big time), but the cause of
those bills. Geoff would not have the bills to pay if a certain someone had
not made a more-than-questionable move that forced him into a barrier and
caused some very serious injuries. That was the point. Our profit-based
medical system making matters worse is purely incidental.

Insured or not, actions like this cause a lot of unnecessary suffering.
Hell, I have accident insurance, but no amount of insurance can heal a
spinal chord. My own brother sustained some unfortunate injuries in his
youth that have turned out to be permanent, regardless of the care available
to him.

The point in all of this is not to ridicule a victim for spending his money
on things like food and rent instead of a potentially useless insurance
policy (let's face it, many of us could be wasting our money on false hope
if our insurance companies truly had their way), but instead to ridicule
a**holes who put other people at risk in the interest of holding on to 40th
place in an age-group race.

-Erik

_____

From: mike.murray@obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:39:26 -0800
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

A cost effective way for a healthy young person to protect themselves
against large medical losses is to purchase an accident/injury plan like the
Adventure Advocates plan as well as a large deductible major medical plan.
The combined premiums are much lower than you would think. This will not
pay for routine medical expenses but it will pay for injuries, which is a
healthy person's greatest risk. You risk losing the amount of the
deductible if you get a medical illness but at least you won't have to
declare bankruptcy because you get ill, as we all eventually will. More
importantly, you will then be able to pay the discounted insurance prices
for medical care rather than the wildly inflated and mostly imaginary
"sticker" prices.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Dan H
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 22:31 PM
To: geoff huber; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

Geoff,

I don't know you but I hate to hear of anyone getting injured. I've tried it

myself a few times and didn't like it. Unfortunately it's too late for you

but perhaps others can benefit from your experience. I recently discovered

an inexpensive accident insurance. For $49 a month, you get an ambulance or

life flight ride and the first $5000 of your accident covered. The web site

has different numbers but they will change at the end of the year. More

premium and less coverage but I think still a good deal. They also offer

conventional health insurance that can pick up where the accident insurance

leaves off. The accident insurance covers you if you are in an accident

riding your bike, driving a car or even if you get hit by a falling piano

while walking. It does not cover you skiing, motorcycling or riding a

motorized ATV.

http://www.adventureadvocates.com/IMBA/

----- Original Message -----

From: "geoff huber"

To:

Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 9:42 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

>I hope everyone had a blast this weekend and made it home safe. I have

>been racing in Oregon since 93' and I feel very fortunate to be an avid

>member of OBRA. Just two weeks ago I was interviewed after a local cross

>race in Eugene and was asked "why do you race cross?" One of my answers

>was.."because of the comradeship between my fellow racers." I have never

>had a negative experience with any other racer....until this weekend. The

>Masters 30-34 class contained a lot if local (Oregon) guys and I was

>excited to compete in my first National Champs. After flatting on the

>first lap I knew I could not expect great things...but hey this was the

>National Championships and I was going to race like hell no matter what.

>With three laps to go I had worked my way up to mid pack. I eventually

>caught a group of four riders and had picked off three of them by the time

>we hit the infield side if the pit area. Now anyone at this race knows

>that there was ample space to pass on either

> side of the pit. As the last rider from the group and I came into the

> straight away we were in the middle if the lane and I jumped out of the

> sadddle to pass on the right. As I came even with the other rider he

> steered me into the metal barrier/fencing in an attempt to prevent me from

> passing. I crashed into the pit fencing at speed and I sustained the

> following injuries: Broken sternum, two broken fingers..one if them was a

> compound fracture, severe knee contusion, and whiplash. I just spent the

> last two days in the hospital racking up thousands of dollars in uninsured

> medical bills...and missed my start in the Elite Class on Sunday. I

> needed all the fancy tests and x-rays to make sure I didn't do any

> permanent damage to my lungs or heart. I want to let this individual know

> that not only am I totally f@$%ed for the next couple of months and now

> have an insane pile of debt...but my injuries now prevent me from starting

> a much needed new job. This all for a mid-pack f

> inish. There is not much I can do now...I just hope that the person

> responsible for this now understands that his actions on the race course

> will linger in my life for months. There is no doubt this was an

> intentional act and I welcome input from all that read this. One bright

> note out of all this is that Cross Nats will be in Bend again next year

> and I will get another shot. As I sit here and write this, all I think

> about is that moment when I will be able to get back on my bike and start

> training for next season. I would not wish these injuries on anyone...it

> really, really sucks. Geoff Huber

> _______________________________________________

> OBRA mailing list

> obra@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_____

Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. Get it
now.

Erik Long

2009-12-16

I think the point that Geoff was originally making was not particularly about the medical bills (although that does suck big time), but the cause of those bills. Geoff would not have the bills to pay if a certain someone had not made a more-than-questionable move that forced him into a barrier and caused some very serious injuries. That was the point. Our profit-based medical system making matters worse is purely incidental.

Insured or not, actions like this cause a lot of unnecessary suffering. Hell, I have accident insurance, but no amount of insurance can heal a spinal chord. My own brother sustained some unfortunate injuries in his youth that have turned out to be permanent, regardless of the care available to him.

The point in all of this is not to ridicule a victim for spending his money on things like food and rent instead of a potentially useless insurance policy (let's face it, many of us could be wasting our money on false hope if our insurance companies truly had their way), but instead to ridicule a**holes who put other people at risk in the interest of holding on to 40th place in an age-group race.

-Erik

From: mike.murray@obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:39:26 -0800
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

RE: [OBRA Chat] cross nats mens 30-34 crash

A cost effective way for a healthy young person to protect themselves against large medical losses is to purchase an accident/injury plan like the Adventure Advocates plan as well as a large deductible major medical plan. The combined premiums are much lower than you would think. This will not pay for routine medical expenses but it will pay for injuries, which is a healthy person's greatest risk. You risk losing the amount of the deductible if you get a medical illness but at least you won't have to declare bankruptcy because you get ill, as we all eventually will. More importantly, you will then be able to pay the discounted insurance prices for medical care rather than the wildly inflated and mostly imaginary "sticker" prices.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan H