Sabrina Savage

I agree with Pam here!

There are still many races that are cat 1/2/3 that I'm noticing here and as
far as the women who are racing the NRC level like myself need to race with
the guys to help with being competive at the larger levels .. I do also
enjoy racing with the girls as well so I think this be a good balance since
its not on every race where they are splitting us all up!

Sounds good to me I'm kind over the debate here I just want to RACE MY BIKE!
:)

Cheers!

Sabrina

As far as being able to race at the NRC level

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Pamela Archer wrote:

> Here's my monkey wrench:
>
> for races which are NOT state-championship or Oregon Cup:
> Race cat 4's separately
> Race cat 3's with cat 2's
> Race cat 1's with the men
>
> (for rationale, see soapbox below, specifically paragraph #2).
>
> Pamela Archer
> Therapeutic Associates, Inc., women's team
>
>
> *Soapbox*
>
> here's what it's like to be a cat 2:
> you're good enough or put in enough time to be better than the 3's, and you
> want something more. But to get that something more, it takes a lot of
> time, effort, and money. It's a significant jump. But then what...you're a
> career cat 2 if you're not set on going pro. And there are some of us who
> are just that...dedicated enough to train and race at a higher level, but
> unless I win the lottery, I'm still going to have to work and can't train
> at
> the level I would need to as a cat 1.
>
> FURTHERMORE, we're forgetting about the PRO women. So technically we're
> running PRO/CAT 1/CAT 2 together. Where do the cat 2's fit in the
> picture??? For those awesome Oregon racers who are going to NRC races and
> Nationals, they NEED the challenge of racing in a dynamic pack and the
> men's
> fields can provide them with riders of similar ability. I'm in full
> support
> of giving these women the racing experience they need to be competitive on
> the national level. But for those of us who like to have a challenge but
> aren't pro, where do we fit in? If our top women finish mid-pack with the
> men's 3's, where am I going to end up? Dropped like a hot potato. Why on
> earth would I pay money to go to a race and get dropped immediately???
> Silverton aside, I'm not going to do that!!! IMHO, OBRA needs to support
> ALL of women's racing, not just a few categories.
>
> And I 100% support a shortened/abbreviated women's calendar. Support the
> Oregon Cup and encourage Oregon Cup promoters to accommodate the women's
> fields. These are our 7 races that are "big time" and we should all go.
> (remember? Oregon cup was supposed to be this series attracting riders,
> the
> races to focus on? If there are too many other races with too few people,
> fine, take away the "token women's field." I would rather show up to a
> race
> knowing that I'll have people to race against.) Title 9 doesn't have to go
> into effect for every race. I don't blame Pac Power/Cherry pie for
> eliminating the cat 1/2 field. Nobody shows up. The reality is, what top
> level women's rider is going to be able to race every single weekend?
> Correct me if I'm off my rocker, but I think people generally pick a few
> "A"
> races each year to shoot for. And if you do race every single weekend,
> you're going to burn out. **BUT I do beg of OBRA and promoters to please
> continue to give us the opportunity to race SOMEWHERE SOMETIME in a field
> where we belong.**
>
> Jettisoning the cat 1/2's to the men's field doesn't solve this issue. It
> then becomes our "$25 training ride." I've nothing against building the
> sport. However, to echo Shari White, this will also push me in another
> sporting direction this year, away from road racing.
>
>
>
> Kudos for reading this far...I'll give you some grape Vitargo next time I
> see you.
> Pam :)
>
>
> ~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
> Pamela Archer
> parcher@umn.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>

Pamela Archer

Here's my monkey wrench:

for races which are NOT state-championship or Oregon Cup:
Race cat 4's separately
Race cat 3's with cat 2's
Race cat 1's with the men

(for rationale, see soapbox below, specifically paragraph #2).

Pamela Archer
Therapeutic Associates, Inc., women's team

*Soapbox*

here's what it's like to be a cat 2:
you're good enough or put in enough time to be better than the 3's, and you
want something more. But to get that something more, it takes a lot of
time, effort, and money. It's a significant jump. But then what...you're a
career cat 2 if you're not set on going pro. And there are some of us who
are just that...dedicated enough to train and race at a higher level, but
unless I win the lottery, I'm still going to have to work and can't train at
the level I would need to as a cat 1.

FURTHERMORE, we're forgetting about the PRO women. So technically we're
running PRO/CAT 1/CAT 2 together. Where do the cat 2's fit in the
picture??? For those awesome Oregon racers who are going to NRC races and
Nationals, they NEED the challenge of racing in a dynamic pack and the men's
fields can provide them with riders of similar ability. I'm in full support
of giving these women the racing experience they need to be competitive on
the national level. But for those of us who like to have a challenge but
aren't pro, where do we fit in? If our top women finish mid-pack with the
men's 3's, where am I going to end up? Dropped like a hot potato. Why on
earth would I pay money to go to a race and get dropped immediately???
Silverton aside, I'm not going to do that!!! IMHO, OBRA needs to support
ALL of women's racing, not just a few categories.

And I 100% support a shortened/abbreviated women's calendar. Support the
Oregon Cup and encourage Oregon Cup promoters to accommodate the women's
fields. These are our 7 races that are "big time" and we should all go.
(remember? Oregon cup was supposed to be this series attracting riders, the
races to focus on? If there are too many other races with too few people,
fine, take away the "token women's field." I would rather show up to a race
knowing that I'll have people to race against.) Title 9 doesn't have to go
into effect for every race. I don't blame Pac Power/Cherry pie for
eliminating the cat 1/2 field. Nobody shows up. The reality is, what top
level women's rider is going to be able to race every single weekend?
Correct me if I'm off my rocker, but I think people generally pick a few "A"
races each year to shoot for. And if you do race every single weekend,
you're going to burn out. **BUT I do beg of OBRA and promoters to please
continue to give us the opportunity to race SOMEWHERE SOMETIME in a field
where we belong.**

Jettisoning the cat 1/2's to the men's field doesn't solve this issue. It
then becomes our "$25 training ride." I've nothing against building the
sport. However, to echo Shari White, this will also push me in another
sporting direction this year, away from road racing.

Kudos for reading this far...I'll give you some grape Vitargo next time I
see you.
Pam :)

~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~~
Pamela Archer
parcher@umn.edu

jennifer levo

Hello everyone!
It's jenn levo and I've come to share my view on this topic as a pretty much a soon to be new Cat 3.
Honestly, I love the Cat 1&2's, in fact... some of my best friends are Cat 1 and 2's. However, when it comes to racing against them, (in lets say a 70 some mile road race)... they scare me shitless. Basically, I know that at some point sooner or later I'm gonna get blown off the pack, but I'd like that to happen later than sooner in a race. I'd like to be able to spend more time testing my skills and abilities with those of my level. I just feel that with full fledged 1/2's leading the pace of the race, I've got no chance in hell in being as competitive. I feel as if most races would end up being just me... riding by myself or other Cat 3 stragglers for the remaining few hours -which... makes for an enjoyable social ride, especially if it's scenic and the weather is nice- but not one that I'm too akin to paying for.

I am sure that some of the top Cat 3 racers (and folks who aspire to be), would like their fair chance control the race, break away, catch the break-aways, and cross that line first. I believe our Cat 3 group this year to be a pretty solid bunch of girls with a great amount of racing and riding as a team under their belt who would love to employ some team tactics in a more isolated Cat 3 environment. True... I think that all of us could learn a lot from the few Cat 1/2's that show up to a race... but what good is it when you try to employ a tactic against the very person that just taught you that tactic?
I think when a bunch of Cat 3's and Cat 4's spoke up earlier and asked for a separate race category, we didn't think that they would just eliminate the 1/2's. Kinda like when the white man moved into North America... they didn't really consider what was going to happen to Native Americans. Much like the Indians, I'd hate to see the Cat 1/2's dwindle in numbers ... and if making them race with the men is going to do that... then by all means... it's fine if they race with me (or the other people who will be more likely to enter that race).

However, if the 1/2's were to race with the 3's, I would like them to be scored separately (that way when they blow by me... I can say, "oh... she's a Cat 1?.. well, that really doesn't count then"). And hopefully for crits, since they're shorter... we could be divided? Overall, don't get me wrong... I've raced plenty as a Cat 4 with open women and it's challenging and fun and you feel really really good when you do well. However, sometimes it's just nice racing against your skill level and testing your skills appropriately. -jenn levo
carpe diem!

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 07:00:27 +0000
From: jillsjunk@comcast.net
To: kaybork@gmail.com
CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

A survey would be super, especially if women would take a few moments to fill it out so that they are heard. I think that everyone has opinions on this subject and it would be super to "hear" from people that might not want to email this whole list by using an anonymous survey.

-Jill

----- Original Message -----
From: kaybork@gmail.com
To: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
Cc: "obra women"
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:57:19 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

I would also add the question:

I am a woman Cat 1/2 racer and I refer to race:
1. In a women’s combined 1/2/3 field
2. In the men’s Cat 3 field
3. In the men’s masters field

Again, keeping choices open for the Cat 1/2 women seems better than limiting choice by forcing them to race in the men's fields or not at all. As is stands now the 1/2 women already have the choice to race in the men's field whenever they want.

Kay

On Jan 24, 2010 11:19am, "T. Kenji Sugahara" wrote:
> I'm thrilled that all of you are taking an active role. However, I do
>
> think that the survey requires more questions as the cat 4 women need
>
> to be involved in this too.
>
>
>
> The additional questions needs to be addressed to all women (I've sent
>
> them onto Jen)
>
>
>
> If a Cat 4, does a combined 1/2/3 encourage/discourage you from upgrading.
>
>
>
> If you are a Cat 3 and are not racing road, what are your top reasons?
>
> 1. Not enough time to train
>
> 2. Have other priorities
>
> 3. Not interested in racing road
>
> 4. Tried racing and ended up racing alone most of the time.
>
> 5. other, please explain
>
>
>
> If you upgraded to a 3 what were your reasons?
>
> 1. Was forced to.
>
> 2. To join other team members.
>
> 3. So I could eventually race at a 1/2 level.
>
> 4. Wanted to race with a safer field.
>
> 5. Wanted to compete at a higher level.
>
> 6. other, please explain
>
>
>
> If you upgraded to a 2, what were your reasons?
>
> 1. Wanted to race national level races.
>
> 2. To join other team members.
>
> 3. Wanted to race faster.
>
> 4. Wanted to compete at a higher level.
>
> 5. other, please explain
>
>
>
> If you previously raced as a Cat 3, what would encourage you to return
>
> to racing?
>
> explain
>
>
>
> What is your age group
>
> 1. Junior
>
> 2. 18-35
>
> 3. 36-50
>
> 4. 50+
>
>
>
> The end goal is membership retention and field growth. What can be
>
> done to improve these numbers? If you are unhappy with this- I would
>
> encourage you to engage with the promoters as they are the ones who
>
> make the decisions on field composition. OBRA only requires certain
>
> fields for championships and Oregon Cup races.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> OBRA_Women mailing list
>
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/

jillsjunk@comcast.net

A survey would be super, especially if women would take a few moments to fill it out so that they are heard. I think that everyone has opinions on this subject and it would be super to "hear" from people that might not want to email this whole list by using an anonymous survey.

-Jill

----- Original Message -----
From: kaybork@gmail.com
To: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
Cc: "obra women"
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:57:19 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

I would also add the question:

I am a woman Cat 1/2 racer and I refer to race:
1. In a women’s combined 1/2/3 field
2. In the men’s Cat 3 field
3. In the men’s masters field

Again, keeping choices open for the Cat 1/2 women seems better than limiting choice by forcing them to race in the men's fields or not at all. As is stands now the 1/2 women already have the choice to race in the men's field whenever they want.

Kay

On Jan 24, 2010 11:19am, "T. Kenji Sugahara" wrote:
> I'm thrilled that all of you are taking an active role. However, I do
>
> think that the survey requires more questions as the cat 4 women need
>
> to be involved in this too.
>
>
>
> The additional questions needs to be addressed to all women (I've sent
>
> them onto Jen)
>
>
>
> If a Cat 4, does a combined 1/2/3 encourage/discourage you from upgrading.
>
>
>
> If you are a Cat 3 and are not racing road, what are your top reasons?
>
> 1. Not enough time to train
>
> 2. Have other priorities
>
> 3. Not interested in racing road
>
> 4. Tried racing and ended up racing alone most of the time.
>
> 5. other, please explain
>
>
>
> If you upgraded to a 3 what were your reasons?
>
> 1. Was forced to.
>
> 2. To join other team members.
>
> 3. So I could eventually race at a 1/2 level.
>
> 4. Wanted to race with a safer field.
>
> 5. Wanted to compete at a higher level.
>
> 6. other, please explain
>
>
>
> If you upgraded to a 2, what were your reasons?
>
> 1. Wanted to race national level races.
>
> 2. To join other team members.
>
> 3. Wanted to race faster.
>
> 4. Wanted to compete at a higher level.
>
> 5. other, please explain
>
>
>
> If you previously raced as a Cat 3, what would encourage you to return
>
> to racing?
>
> explain
>
>
>
> What is your age group
>
> 1. Junior
>
> 2. 18-35
>
> 3. 36-50
>
> 4. 50+
>
>
>
> The end goal is membership retention and field growth. What can be
>
> done to improve these numbers? If you are unhappy with this- I would
>
> encourage you to engage with the promoters as they are the ones who
>
> make the decisions on field composition. OBRA only requires certain
>
> fields for championships and Oregon Cup races.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> OBRA_Women mailing list
>
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
_______________________________________________ OBRA_Women mailing list OBRA_Women@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Serena Bishop

I completely agree.
As a Cat 3, I feel racing with the CAT 1/2 Women is a great learning experience. What better way to learn than from strong women? If the Cat 1/2 Women begin racing with the Men, the Cat 3 riders will loose a valuable learn resource.
Other than the difficulties race promoters have with scoring the Cat 3 Women separately, is there another reason to change the way things were done last year? The Cat 1/2/3 races seems to work well.

-Serena Bishop

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:23:07 +0000
From: shari.white@comcast.net
To: cmurray@obra.org
CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Speaking as a Cat 2, I think the 1-2-3s should race together. Unfortunately, I can't address the reasons why so many Cat 3s don't want a handful of 1/2s to race with them. I wish I had a solution for encouraging more women to race; they're out there for cross so why not the road? I raced a fair number of races last year. However, requiring us to race with the Cat 3 men and not scoring us separately will push me in another sporting direction for 2010. How about loosening the upgrade rules so that more Cat 3s are Cat 2s?

Thanks for listening-

Shari

----- Original Message -----
From: "Candi Murray"
To: "Karey Miles" , "obra women"
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:45:40 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

I think what is needed here is some numbers.
According to OBRA membership at the end of 2009, the breakdown for women was
Cat 1 12 riders, 5 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 2
have not raced in 2 years or more
Cat 2 51 riders, 12 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 5
have not raced in 2 years or more.
Cat 3 102 riders, 16 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away

If you take the standard percentages about of the available riders that
actually show up at any given event. That would mean that 1-2 cat 1s, and
less then 5 cat 2s would show up. We have had multiple races where we have
had to cancel the Sr Women fields because the minimum field size of 5 was
not met. What we have had is an increased call from the Cat 3 women not to
be required to ride with the 1/2 women. Of all the women categories the 1/2
field is the most undependable to get a field together.

I do not think that the move away from having Sr Women fields is a done
deal, but now is the time to contact the race organizers and express what it
is that you women want.
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Karey Miles
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:40 PM
To: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Hello all you ladies out there:

This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that
promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing
a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.

So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
excluding Oregon Cup races.

As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women
to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated
that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last
year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as
one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of
view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I
guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in
the first place.

I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?

Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
because there is no field available for me to race in.

Sincerely,
Karey Miles
Therapeutic Associates Women's Team

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/

shari.white@comcast.net

Speaking as a Cat 2, I think the 1-2-3s should race together.  Unfortunately, I can't address the reasons why so many Cat 3s don't want a handful of 1/2s to race with them.  I wish I had a solution for encouraging more women to race; they're out there for cross so why not the road? I raced a fair number of races last year.  However, requiring us to race with the Cat 3 men and not scoring us separately will push me in another sporting direction for 2010.  How about loosening the upgrade rules so that more Cat 3s are Cat 2s?

Thanks for listening-

Shari

----- Original Message -----
From: "Candi Murray"
To: "Karey Miles" , "obra women"
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 6:45:40 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

I think what is needed here is some numbers.
According to OBRA membership at the end of 2009, the breakdown for women was
Cat 1        12 riders, 5 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 2
have not raced in 2 years or more
Cat 2 51 riders, 12 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 5
have not raced in 2 years or more.
Cat 3 102 riders, 16 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away

If you take the standard percentages about of the available riders that
actually show up at any given event. That would mean that 1-2 cat 1s, and
less then 5 cat 2s would show up. We have had multiple races where we have
had to cancel the Sr Women fields because the minimum field size of 5 was
not met. What we have had is an increased call from the Cat 3 women not to
be required to ride with the 1/2 women. Of all the women categories the 1/2
field is the most undependable to get a field together.

I do not think that the move away from having Sr Women fields is a done
deal, but now is the time to contact the race organizers and express what it
is that you women want.
Candi
 

-----Original Message-----
From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Karey Miles
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:40 PM
To: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Hello all you ladies out there:

This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that
promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing
a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.  

So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
excluding Oregon Cup races.  

As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women
to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am  frustrated
that we are not given the chance to have our own field.  I felt that last
year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as
one field worked out pretty well.  I understand, from a promoters point of
view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I
guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in
the first place.

I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
people feel about this change.  Do you feel that this is going to promote
women's racing as a whole?  In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve?  How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?  

Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear.  I'm trying to
see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
Cat 2,  not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
because there is no field available for me to race in.  

Sincerely,
Karey Miles
Therapeutic Associates Women's Team

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Karey Miles

Thanks everyone for all their conversations. And, yes, I think that we need
to see how all categories feel about this one.

I agree with Kenji, that there are actually quite a few questions that need
to be asked. As a team, the TAI women have sat down and talked about this
on
numerous occasions, and we were trying to think of what those questions are
that need to be asked.

I think that some sort of survey, like the one Jen put out would be good -
but including more of the details questions, incorporating people's
expectations of future racing and
reasoning behind the choices they make to/not to race. After that, we can
get a better idea of what is causing a drop in the fields toward the upper
categories.

And - it takes some effort from all you ladies out there to get your voices
heard. I'm really excited that people have some opinions on this matter -
and, by golly, if you are
some one out there that is really really excited that they are racing some
of the races this way, let it be heard as well! As a group, we need to
figure out how to promote women's
racing the best we can.

Karey

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:32 PM, wrote:

> Hey ladies!
>
> I'm new to the vancouver area and am a cat 1 racer! I am a bit confused why
> they do not just make a womens 1-2-3 field and either score together or
> separate depending on the race!
>
> This is how must of the races were at the local level in arizona where I
> use to live. This way it gives the cat 3 women to get better with experience
> with the 1-2s.
>
> On a side note these cat 3s will eventually upgrade to a 2 as well!
>
> I do enjoy racing with the guys and womens races but we should still have
> the option to race with the 1-2-3s not all women want to race with the boys!
>
> Who should we contact about this ladies? Since I'm new hear I'm not sure!
> Thanks
> Sabrina savage
> Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Candi Murray"
> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:45:40
> To: 'Karey Miles';
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>
> I think what is needed here is some numbers.
> According to OBRA membership at the end of 2009, the breakdown for women
> was
> Cat 1 12 riders, 5 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away,
> 2
> have not raced in 2 years or more
> Cat 2 51 riders, 12 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 5
> have not raced in 2 years or more.
> Cat 3 102 riders, 16 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away
>
> If you take the standard percentages about of the available riders that
> actually show up at any given event. That would mean that 1-2 cat 1s, and
> less then 5 cat 2s would show up. We have had multiple races where we have
> had to cancel the Sr Women fields because the minimum field size of 5 was
> not met. What we have had is an increased call from the Cat 3 women not to
> be required to ride with the 1/2 women. Of all the women categories the 1/2
> field is the most undependable to get a field together.
>
> I do not think that the move away from having Sr Women fields is a done
> deal, but now is the time to contact the race organizers and express what
> it
> is that you women want.
> Candi
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
> [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Karey Miles
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:40 PM
> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>
> Hello all you ladies out there:
>
> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that
> promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
> providing
> a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>
> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
> excluding Oregon Cup races.
>
> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women
> to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated
> that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last
> year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all
> as
> one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of
> view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I
> guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in
> the first place.
>
> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
> people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>
> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
> see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
> because there is no field available for me to race in.
>
> Sincerely,
> Karey Miles
> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>

Amanda Atwill

I don't believe race promoters are solely driven by the need to make money. Yes, they do not want to be in the red but our mission isn't to be making a quick buck off of these races. As I'm finding, there isn't a great return on bike racing for profit. Therefore, the race promoters I've spoken with, want to move women's cycling in the right direction and support racers as they move up the categories. My little opinion is to keep the 1/2/3 together, scored separately. Cat 3's - eventually I believe will want to be 1/2's or if not, can learn something from those with more experience at least. I also think by keeping the women together there is some kind of solidarity and camaraderie built with women that will translate into the numbers participants.

AA
________________________________
From: Mackenzie Madison [mailto:kenzmadison@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:13 AM
To: Sabrina Savage
Cc: Jen Akeroyd; Amanda Atwill; obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Last end in parting- thought came up...

Race promoters only want to do something so that they earn money or not in the negative...

SO are they expecting the 1/2's to race with the men- all get dropped and form their own race?

And if you're with a men's field, and you hang with them longer and do not get caught up with the female division- is that cheating?

I'm thinking this is more a result of monetary issues for promoters- so the question is how or what are the specific reasons for such "motives"?....

Mackenzie

________________________

Mackenzie Madison
University of Oregon | Graduate Student
Masters | Exercise Physiology
515.669.7472
________________________

www.GetZoomPerformance.com

Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.

- Lance Armstrong

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Sabrina Savage > wrote:
Mackenzie and all!

I totally agree with you on this and we deserve the right to have the opportunity to race and with a larger group as well! If they just score us seperatly it would be fare to all and we could all race together
in a larger field and still have the motivation for the lower catagories to want to upgrade and be able to have the opportunity to race at the higher level weather local or NRC.

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Mackenzie Madison > wrote:
To all-

Honestly, I believe this is doing exactly what they don't want to happen- diminishing the women's 1/2 field. I have just started racing my bike as of last year and really don't want to have these opportunities taken away. As I said in the survey that Jen sent out:

"I am almost a Cat 2, and almost every, single one of my teammates are also Cat 2's... so I can not race with them. AND THEN- even though I'm an uber strong cat 3 racer, it's like what's the point of upgrading? I still want to but if there's going to be no more fields of 1/2, why even have those categories?!?! As with my experience from running- there is a team of people really good and experienced, mediocre, and beginners. People can move throughout these levels depending on what they want to race and how they race so shouldn't more levels be offered to continue to motivate people and in general women's racing?!?! This is what's going to increase the likelihood of people just STAYING as Cat 3 and 4's. It's contributing to a worse effect and kind of slapping us in the face as "so long women's racing..." What ever happened to Title 9? Do we need the government or higher organization to become more of an equal opportunity association? This is what could turn OBRA into a not so good thing....

As an FYI, running races, triathlons, swim meets, etc. seed people by times generally, or by age. Ours is done by experience but it shouldn't mean that you don't get the same opportunity to acquire more of a challenge but yet be scored within your division....

Mackenzie

________________________

Mackenzie Madison
University of Oregon | Graduate Student
Masters | Exercise Physiology
515.669.7472
________________________

www.GetZoomPerformance.com

Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.

- Lance Armstrong

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jen Akeroyd > wrote:
Of the cat 3s who have chimed in thus far, it sounds like they would prefer to race with the 1-2s in a 1-2-3 field. So, going back to the way it was is one solution. This way we will not cut out the 1/2s. Maybe we should have a vote? I will send out a vote.

________________________________
From: AATWILL@CSICAPITAL.com
To: sabrinasavage@gmail.com; jenakeroyd@hotmail.com
CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:23:12 -0800
Subject: RE: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Hi girls,

This is a very interesting topic; one because I'm a racer, and two because I'm putting on a new race here in Bend this May, Bend Don't Brake. As a promoter, there is an obvious issue with running an extra field when it comes to cost: officials, judges, cars, time on the course, volunteers, prizes. And then there is the issue of having enough 1/2 racers to warrant another field. As a racer (new Cat 3) I would rather race with the 1/2 women and be scored separately to obtain upgrade points and learn from the better racers. That was what I was planning on doing with the 1/2/3 women in my race. Why is there such a large discrepancy between the number of 3 racers and the 1/2 racers. Why is there such a drop off? Does it have to do with the commitment to racing once you've reached the 1/2 level?

I would love to have a conversation with racers so that we are running the most accommodating fields for women racers.

Amanda Atwill

AA

________________________________

From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Sabrina Savage
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:06 AM
To: Jen Akeroyd
Cc: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Jen,

I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can workout.

However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to race with the 1/2 to become better!

Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .

I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.

Thanks Jen for the info

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:

Karey -

Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a separate cat 3 race.

I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.

I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet the promoters 'half way'.

I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other women. Ladies?

Jen

> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
> From: karey.miles@gmail.com

> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>

> Hello all you ladies out there:
>
> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>
> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season, excluding Oregon Cup races.
>
> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>
> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>
> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field because there is no field available for me to race in.
>
> Sincerely,
> Karey Miles
> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

________________________________

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Candi Murray

You have to figure out how many cat 3 do not want to ride with the 1/2s to
make the difference of having the 5 1/2 riders that actually show up.
Candi

_____

From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Sabrina Savage
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 11:50 AM
To: Mackenzie Madison
Cc: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Mackenzie,

I do agree with you but if they just put the womens 1/2/3 together then it
would not cost the promoters any more money to do so and may even make more
money because more women would want to race? right??

Just a thought?

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Mackenzie Madison
wrote:

Last end in parting- thought came up...

Race promoters only want to do something so that they earn money or not in
the negative...

SO are they expecting the 1/2's to race with the men- all get dropped and
form their own race?

And if you're with a men's field, and you hang with them longer and do not
get caught up with the female division- is that cheating?

I'm thinking this is more a result of monetary issues for promoters- so the
question is how or what are the specific reasons for such "motives"?....

Mackenzie

________________________

Mackenzie Madison
University of Oregon | Graduate Student
Masters | Exercise Physiology
515.669.7472
________________________

www.GetZoomPerformance.com

Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.

- Lance Armstrong

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Sabrina Savage
wrote:

Mackenzie and all!

I totally agree with you on this and we deserve the right to have the
opportunity to race and with a larger group as well! If they just score us
seperatly it would be fare to all and we could all race together
in a larger field and still have the motivation for the lower catagories to
want to upgrade and be able to have the opportunity to race at the higher
level weather local or NRC.

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Mackenzie Madison
wrote:

To all-

Honestly, I believe this is doing exactly what they don't want to happen-
diminishing the women's 1/2 field. I have just started racing my bike as of
last year and really don't want to have these opportunities taken away. As I
said in the survey that Jen sent out:

"I am almost a Cat 2, and almost every, single one of my teammates are also
Cat 2's... so I can not race with them. AND THEN- even though I'm an uber
strong cat 3 racer, it's like what's the point of upgrading? I still want to
but if there's going to be no more fields of 1/2, why even have those
categories?!?! As with my experience from running- there is a team of people
really good and experienced, mediocre, and beginners. People can move
throughout these levels depending on what they want to race and how they
race so shouldn't more levels be offered to continue to motivate people and
in general women's racing?!?! This is what's going to increase the
likelihood of people just STAYING as Cat 3 and 4's. It's contributing to a
worse effect and kind of slapping us in the face as "so long women's
racing..." What ever happened to Title 9? Do we need the government or
higher organization to become more of an equal opportunity association? This
is what could turn OBRA into a not so good thing....

As an FYI, running races, triathlons, swim meets, etc. seed people by times
generally, or by age. Ours is done by experience but it shouldn't mean that
you don't get the same opportunity to acquire more of a challenge but yet be
scored within your division....

Mackenzie

________________________

Mackenzie Madison
University of Oregon | Graduate Student
Masters | Exercise Physiology
515.669.7472
________________________

www.GetZoomPerformance.com

Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.

- Lance Armstrong

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jen Akeroyd
wrote:

Of the cat 3s who have chimed in thus far, it sounds like they would prefer
to race with the 1-2s in a 1-2-3 field. So, going back to the way it was is
one solution. This way we will not cut out the 1/2s. Maybe we should have a
vote? I will send out a vote.

_____

From: AATWILL@CSICAPITAL.com
To: sabrinasavage@gmail.com; jenakeroyd@hotmail.com
CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:23:12 -0800
Subject: RE: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Hi girls,

This is a very interesting topic; one because I'm a racer, and two because
I'm putting on a new race here in Bend this May, Bend Don't Brake. As a
promoter, there is an obvious issue with running an extra field when it
comes to cost: officials, judges, cars, time on the course, volunteers,
prizes. And then there is the issue of having enough 1/2 racers to warrant
another field. As a racer (new Cat 3) I would rather race with the 1/2 women
and be scored separately to obtain upgrade points and learn from the better
racers. That was what I was planning on doing with the 1/2/3 women in my
race. Why is there such a large discrepancy between the number of 3 racers
and the 1/2 racers. Why is there such a drop off? Does it have to do with
the commitment to racing once you've reached the 1/2 level?

I would love to have a conversation with racers so that we are running the
most accommodating fields for women racers.

Amanda Atwill

AA

_____

From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Sabrina Savage
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:06 AM
To: Jen Akeroyd
Cc: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Jen,

I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can
workout.

However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely
seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local
races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the
1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat
3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to
race with the 1/2 to become better!

Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike
racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool
we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .

I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih is
fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.

Thanks Jen for the info

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:

Karey -

Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think
any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a
separate cat 3 race.

I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand where
they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.

I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running separate
cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter and MANY
volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes nearly 75
volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled these
roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is
possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help
fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain
volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet
the promoters 'half way'.

I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other women.
Ladies?

Jen

> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
> From: karey.miles@gmail.com

> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>

> Hello all you ladies out there:
>
> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>
> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
excluding Oregon Cup races.
>
> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>
> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>
> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
because there is no field available for me to race in.
>
> Sincerely,
> Karey Miles
> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_____

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_____

Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. Sign up
now.

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Jan Moss

My opinion?
If dozens of women of all ages and categories showed up consistently for all
races, this would not be an issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Karey Miles
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:40 PM
To: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Hello all you ladies out there:

This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that
promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing
a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.

So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
excluding Oregon Cup races.

As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women
to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated
that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last
year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as
one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of
view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I
guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in
the first place.

I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?

Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
because there is no field available for me to race in.

Sincerely,
Karey Miles
Therapeutic Associates Women's Team

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

kaybork@gmail.com

I would also add the question:

I am a woman Cat 1/2 racer and I refer to race:
1. In a women's combined 1/2/3 field
2. In the men's Cat 3 field
3. In the men's masters field

Again, keeping choices open for the Cat 1/2 women seems better than
limiting choice by forcing them to race in the men's fields or not at all.
As is stands now the 1/2 women already have the choice to race in the men's
field whenever they want.

Kay

On Jan 24, 2010 11:19am, "T. Kenji Sugahara" wrote:
> I'm thrilled that all of you are taking an active role. However, I do

> think that the survey requires more questions as the cat 4 women need

> to be involved in this too.

> The additional questions needs to be addressed to all women (I've sent

> them onto Jen)

> If a Cat 4, does a combined 1/2/3 encourage/discourage you from upgrading.

> If you are a Cat 3 and are not racing road, what are your top reasons?

> 1. Not enough time to train

> 2. Have other priorities

> 3. Not interested in racing road

> 4. Tried racing and ended up racing alone most of the time.

> 5. other, please explain

> If you upgraded to a 3 what were your reasons?

> 1. Was forced to.

> 2. To join other team members.

> 3. So I could eventually race at a 1/2 level.

> 4. Wanted to race with a safer field.

> 5. Wanted to compete at a higher level.

> 6. other, please explain

> If you upgraded to a 2, what were your reasons?

> 1. Wanted to race national level races.

> 2. To join other team members.

> 3. Wanted to race faster.

> 4. Wanted to compete at a higher level.

> 5. other, please explain

> If you previously raced as a Cat 3, what would encourage you to return

> to racing?

> explain

> What is your age group

> 1. Junior

> 2. 18-35

> 3. 36-50

> 4. 50+

> The end goal is membership retention and field growth. What can be

> done to improve these numbers? If you are unhappy with this- I would

> encourage you to engage with the promoters as they are the ones who

> make the decisions on field composition. OBRA only requires certain

> fields for championships and Oregon Cup races.

> _______________________________________________

> OBRA_Women mailing list

> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

T. Kenji Sugahara

Here's another option that you could take to the promoters.

Select a couple races where the 3's race alone and the 1/2's race with the men.
Select a couple of races where the field is 1/2/3. (scored separately
if you want)

There's enough races out there to make it happen.

We did have a NW Cat 3 Series in the works but issues with USAC (which
we hope to have resolved soon)- threw a wrench into the works for
2010.

Sabrina Savage

Mackenzie,

I do agree with you but if they just put the womens 1/2/3 together then it
would not cost the promoters any more money to do so and may even make more
money because more women would want to race? right??

Just a thought?

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Mackenzie Madison
wrote:

> Last end in parting- thought came up...
>
> Race promoters only want to do something so that they earn money or not in
> the negative...
>
> SO are they expecting the 1/2's to race with the men- all get dropped and
> form their own race?
>
> And if you're with a men's field, and you hang with them longer and do not
> get caught up with the female division- is that cheating?
>
> I'm thinking this is more a result of monetary issues for promoters- so the
> question is how or what are the specific reasons for such "motives"?....
>
>
> Mackenzie
>
>
> ________________________
>
> Mackenzie Madison
> University of Oregon | Graduate Student
> Masters | Exercise Physiology
> 515.669.7472
> ________________________
>
>
> www.GetZoomPerformance.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.
>
> - Lance Armstrong
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Sabrina Savage wrote:
>
>> Mackenzie and all!
>>
>> I totally agree with you on this and we deserve the right to have the
>> opportunity to race and with a larger group as well! If they just score us
>> seperatly it would be fare to all and we could all race together
>> in a larger field and still have the motivation for the lower catagories
>> to want to upgrade and be able to have the opportunity to race at the higher
>> level weather local or NRC.
>>
>> Sabrina
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Mackenzie Madison <
>> kenzmadison@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> To all-
>>>
>>> Honestly, I believe this is doing exactly what they don't want to happen-
>>> diminishing the women's 1/2 field. I have just started racing my bike as of
>>> last year and really don't want to have these opportunities taken away. As I
>>> said in the survey that Jen sent out:
>>>
>>> "I am almost a Cat 2, and almost every, single one of my teammates are
>>> also Cat 2's... so I can not race with them. AND THEN- even though I'm an
>>> uber strong cat 3 racer, it's like what's the point of upgrading? I
>>> still want to but if there's going to be no more fields of 1/2, why even
>>> have those categories?!?! As with my experience from running- there is a
>>> team of people really good and experienced, mediocre, and beginners. People
>>> can move throughout these levels depending on what they want to race and how
>>> they race so shouldn't more levels be offered to continue to motivate people
>>> and in general women's racing?!?! This is what's going to increase the
>>> likelihood of people just STAYING as Cat 3 and 4's. It's contributing to a
>>> worse effect and kind of slapping us in the face as "so long women's
>>> racing..." What ever happened to Title 9? Do we need the government or
>>> higher organization to become more of an equal opportunity association? This
>>> is what could turn OBRA into a not so good thing....
>>>
>>> As an FYI, running races, triathlons, swim meets, etc. seed people by
>>> times generally, or by age. Ours is done by experience but it shouldn't mean
>>> that you don't get the same opportunity to acquire more of a challenge but
>>> yet be scored within your division....
>>>
>>> Mackenzie
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________
>>>
>>> Mackenzie Madison
>>> University of Oregon | Graduate Student
>>> Masters | Exercise Physiology
>>> 515.669.7472
>>> ________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> www.GetZoomPerformance.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.
>>>
>>> - Lance Armstrong
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of the cat 3s who have chimed in thus far, it sounds like they would
>>>> prefer to race with the 1-2s in a 1-2-3 field. So, going back to the way it
>>>> was is one solution. This way we will not cut out the 1/2s. Maybe we should
>>>> have a vote? I will send out a vote.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> From: AATWILL@CSICAPITAL.com
>>>> To: sabrinasavage@gmail.com; jenakeroyd@hotmail.com
>>>> CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>>> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:23:12 -0800
>>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>>>
>>>> Hi girls,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a very interesting topic; one because I’m a racer, and two
>>>> because I’m putting on a new race here in Bend this May, Bend Don’t Brake.
>>>> As a promoter, there is an obvious issue with running an extra field when it
>>>> comes to cost: officials, judges, cars, time on the course, volunteers,
>>>> prizes. And then there is the issue of having enough 1/2 racers to warrant
>>>> another field. As a racer (new Cat 3) I would rather race with the 1/2 women
>>>> and be scored separately to obtain upgrade points and learn from the better
>>>> racers. That was what I was planning on doing with the 1/2/3 women in my
>>>> race. Why is there such a large discrepancy between the number of 3 racers
>>>> and the 1/2 racers. Why is there such a drop off? Does it have to do with
>>>> the commitment to racing once you’ve reached the 1/2 level?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would love to have a conversation with racers so that we are running
>>>> the most accommodating fields for women racers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Amanda Atwill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AA
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> *From:* obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:
>>>> obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *Sabrina Savage
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:06 AM
>>>> *To:* Jen Akeroyd
>>>> *Cc:* obra_women@list.obra.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jen,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can
>>>> workout.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely
>>>> seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local
>>>> races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the
>>>> 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat
>>>> 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to
>>>> race with the 1/2 to become better!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike
>>>> racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool
>>>> we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys
>>>> whcih is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Jen for the info
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sabrina
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Karey -
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't
>>>> think any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation
>>>> for a separate cat 3 race.
>>>>
>>>> I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand
>>>> where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.
>>>>
>>>> I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running
>>>> separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter
>>>> and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes
>>>> nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled
>>>> these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is
>>>> possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help
>>>> fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain
>>>> volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet
>>>> the promoters 'half way'.
>>>>
>>>> I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other
>>>> women. Ladies?
>>>>
>>>> Jen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
>>>> > From: karey.miles@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>>> > Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> > Hello all you ladies out there:
>>>> >
>>>> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
>>>> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
>>>> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>>>> >
>>>> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've
>>>> heard rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this
>>>> season, excluding Oregon Cup races.
>>>> >
>>>> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
>>>> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
>>>> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
>>>> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
>>>> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
>>>> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
>>>> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
>>>> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
>>>> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
>>>> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
>>>> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
>>>> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
>>>> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>>>> >
>>>> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying
>>>> to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
>>>> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
>>>> because there is no field available for me to race in.
>>>> >
>>>> > Sincerely,
>>>> > Karey Miles
>>>> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign
>>>> up now.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

T. Kenji Sugahara

I'm thrilled that all of you are taking an active role. However, I do
think that the survey requires more questions as the cat 4 women need
to be involved in this too.

The additional questions needs to be addressed to all women (I've sent
them onto Jen)

If a Cat 4, does a combined 1/2/3 encourage/discourage you from upgrading.

If you are a Cat 3 and are not racing road, what are your top reasons?
1. Not enough time to train
2. Have other priorities
3. Not interested in racing road
4. Tried racing and ended up racing alone most of the time.
5. other, please explain

If you upgraded to a 3 what were your reasons?
1. Was forced to.
2. To join other team members.
3. So I could eventually race at a 1/2 level.
4. Wanted to race with a safer field.
5. Wanted to compete at a higher level.
6. other, please explain

If you upgraded to a 2, what were your reasons?
1. Wanted to race national level races.
2. To join other team members.
3. Wanted to race faster.
4. Wanted to compete at a higher level.
5. other, please explain

If you previously raced as a Cat 3, what would encourage you to return
to racing?
explain

What is your age group
1. Junior
2. 18-35
3. 36-50
4. 50+

The end goal is membership retention and field growth. What can be
done to improve these numbers? If you are unhappy with this- I would
encourage you to engage with the promoters as they are the ones who
make the decisions on field composition. OBRA only requires certain
fields for championships and Oregon Cup races.

Sabrina Savage

Kay,

I also agree this would fix everything and make everyone happy and still
allow the 1/2 women to RACE! If we all get scored seperatly we can still
work together but at the end of the race the first 3 crossing the line would
win the threes and same for the cat 1/2's

This is exactly what we did in AZ and it worked great and everyone was
happy!

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:59 AM, wrote:

> Thanks for bringing this up Karey. As a Cat 3 rider I like the idea of
> racing with the Cat 1/2s but also want to be scored separately. I thought
> that was the direction we were headed after all the discussion last year. I
> can't speak for the Cat 1/2 women but for me the idea of racing with the men
> and not being scored separately would be less of an incentive to race OBRA
> races (unless it is for training purposes).
>
> I am not sure what all the issues are with scoring the women separately
> are, but it seems like an easier technological fix than messing with the
> fields as proposed.
>
> Kay Bork
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2010 6:11pm, Kat Reinhart wrote:
> > This is definitely an issue - I saw this on the Cherry Pie site and
> >
> > didn't believe it. Thanks for bringing it up, Karey.
> >
> >
> >
> > When there was a long discussion about having a separate Cat 3 field
> >
> > over this email list last year, I don't think that any of the women
> >
> > who spoke up about having a separate Cat 3 field meant or imagined
> >
> > that that would make the promoters take away the Cat 1-2 women's
> >
> > field. The consensus wanted the addition of a field, not substitution
> >
> > of Cat 3 for 1-2-3.
> >
> >
> >
> > Even as a brand-new, out-of-shape and highly-intimidated Cat 3, I
> >
> > would rather race a combined 1-2-3 field than see the Elite women's
> >
> > field effectively eliminated. Many of the Cat 3s I know (excluding
> >
> > myself) were very strong for Cat 4's last year, are exceptional
> >
> > athletes, and could easily give many of the 1-2s a run for their
> >
> > money. If the choice is between having a Cat 3 women's race and no 1-2
> >
> > women's race, and having a combined field that may split up early but
> >
> > will be bigger and offer a more diverse level of competition for
> >
> > everyone, I would rather race with/against my faster sisters than see
> >
> > them have to sit out or be forced to race with the Cat 3 men.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just my $0.02.
> >
> >
> >
> > - Kat
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Karey Miles karey.miles@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello all you ladies out there:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
> excluding Oregon Cup races.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to
> promote women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4
> riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there
> are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying
> to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
> because there is no field available for me to race in.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Sincerely,
> >
> > > Karey Miles
> >
> > > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> >
> > > OBRA_Women mailing list
> >
> > > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> >
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
> >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > OBRA_Women mailing list
> >
> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> >
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>

Mackenzie Madison

Last end in parting- thought came up...

Race promoters only want to do something so that they earn money or not in
the negative...

SO are they expecting the 1/2's to race with the men- all get dropped and
form their own race?

And if you're with a men's field, and you hang with them longer and do not
get caught up with the female division- is that cheating?

I'm thinking this is more a result of monetary issues for promoters- so the
question is how or what are the specific reasons for such "motives"?....

Mackenzie

________________________

Mackenzie Madison
University of Oregon | Graduate Student
Masters | Exercise Physiology
515.669.7472
________________________

www.GetZoomPerformance.com

Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.

- Lance Armstrong

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Sabrina Savage wrote:

> Mackenzie and all!
>
> I totally agree with you on this and we deserve the right to have the
> opportunity to race and with a larger group as well! If they just score us
> seperatly it would be fare to all and we could all race together
> in a larger field and still have the motivation for the lower catagories to
> want to upgrade and be able to have the opportunity to race at the higher
> level weather local or NRC.
>
> Sabrina
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Mackenzie Madison > wrote:
>
>> To all-
>>
>> Honestly, I believe this is doing exactly what they don't want to happen-
>> diminishing the women's 1/2 field. I have just started racing my bike as of
>> last year and really don't want to have these opportunities taken away. As I
>> said in the survey that Jen sent out:
>>
>> "I am almost a Cat 2, and almost every, single one of my teammates are
>> also Cat 2's... so I can not race with them. AND THEN- even though I'm an
>> uber strong cat 3 racer, it's like what's the point of upgrading? I still
>> want to but if there's going to be no more fields of 1/2, why even have
>> those categories?!?! As with my experience from running- there is a team of
>> people really good and experienced, mediocre, and beginners. People can move
>> throughout these levels depending on what they want to race and how they
>> race so shouldn't more levels be offered to continue to motivate people and
>> in general women's racing?!?! This is what's going to increase the
>> likelihood of people just STAYING as Cat 3 and 4's. It's contributing to a
>> worse effect and kind of slapping us in the face as "so long women's
>> racing..." What ever happened to Title 9? Do we need the government or
>> higher organization to become more of an equal opportunity association? This
>> is what could turn OBRA into a not so good thing....
>>
>> As an FYI, running races, triathlons, swim meets, etc. seed people by
>> times generally, or by age. Ours is done by experience but it shouldn't mean
>> that you don't get the same opportunity to acquire more of a challenge but
>> yet be scored within your division....
>>
>> Mackenzie
>>
>>
>> ________________________
>>
>> Mackenzie Madison
>> University of Oregon | Graduate Student
>> Masters | Exercise Physiology
>> 515.669.7472
>> ________________________
>>
>>
>> www.GetZoomPerformance.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.
>>
>> - Lance Armstrong
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:
>>
>>> Of the cat 3s who have chimed in thus far, it sounds like they would
>>> prefer to race with the 1-2s in a 1-2-3 field. So, going back to the way it
>>> was is one solution. This way we will not cut out the 1/2s. Maybe we should
>>> have a vote? I will send out a vote.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> From: AATWILL@CSICAPITAL.com
>>> To: sabrinasavage@gmail.com; jenakeroyd@hotmail.com
>>> CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:23:12 -0800
>>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>>
>>> Hi girls,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a very interesting topic; one because I’m a racer, and two
>>> because I’m putting on a new race here in Bend this May, Bend Don’t Brake.
>>> As a promoter, there is an obvious issue with running an extra field when it
>>> comes to cost: officials, judges, cars, time on the course, volunteers,
>>> prizes. And then there is the issue of having enough 1/2 racers to warrant
>>> another field. As a racer (new Cat 3) I would rather race with the 1/2 women
>>> and be scored separately to obtain upgrade points and learn from the better
>>> racers. That was what I was planning on doing with the 1/2/3 women in my
>>> race. Why is there such a large discrepancy between the number of 3 racers
>>> and the 1/2 racers. Why is there such a drop off? Does it have to do with
>>> the commitment to racing once you’ve reached the 1/2 level?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would love to have a conversation with racers so that we are running
>>> the most accommodating fields for women racers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Amanda Atwill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AA
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:
>>> obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *Sabrina Savage
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:06 AM
>>> *To:* Jen Akeroyd
>>> *Cc:* obra_women@list.obra.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jen,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can
>>> workout.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely
>>> seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local
>>> races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the
>>> 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat
>>> 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to
>>> race with the 1/2 to become better!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike
>>> racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool
>>> we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih
>>> is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Jen for the info
>>>
>>>
>>> Sabrina
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Karey -
>>>
>>> Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think
>>> any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a
>>> separate cat 3 race.
>>>
>>> I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand
>>> where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.
>>>
>>> I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running
>>> separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter
>>> and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes
>>> nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled
>>> these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is
>>> possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help
>>> fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain
>>> volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet
>>> the promoters 'half way'.
>>>
>>> I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other
>>> women. Ladies?
>>>
>>> Jen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
>>> > From: karey.miles@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> > To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>> > Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Hello all you ladies out there:
>>> >
>>> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
>>> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
>>> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>>> >
>>> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
>>> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
>>> excluding Oregon Cup races.
>>> >
>>> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
>>> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
>>> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
>>> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
>>> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
>>> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
>>> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
>>> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>>> >
>>> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
>>> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
>>> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
>>> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
>>> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
>>> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>>> >
>>> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying
>>> to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
>>> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
>>> because there is no field available for me to race in.
>>> >
>>> > Sincerely,
>>> > Karey Miles
>>> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign
>>> up now.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>
>

kaybork@gmail.com

Thanks for bringing this up Karey. As a Cat 3 rider I like the idea of
racing with the Cat 1/2s but also want to be scored separately. I thought
that was the direction we were headed after all the discussion last year. I
can't speak for the Cat 1/2 women but for me the idea of racing with the
men and not being scored separately would be less of an incentive to race
OBRA races (unless it is for training purposes).

I am not sure what all the issues are with scoring the women separately
are, but it seems like an easier technological fix than messing with the
fields as proposed.

Kay Bork

On Jan 23, 2010 6:11pm, Kat Reinhart wrote:
> This is definitely an issue - I saw this on the Cherry Pie site and

> didn't believe it. Thanks for bringing it up, Karey.

> When there was a long discussion about having a separate Cat 3 field

> over this email list last year, I don't think that any of the women

> who spoke up about having a separate Cat 3 field meant or imagined

> that that would make the promoters take away the Cat 1-2 women's

> field. The consensus wanted the addition of a field, not substitution

> of Cat 3 for 1-2-3.

> Even as a brand-new, out-of-shape and highly-intimidated Cat 3, I

> would rather race a combined 1-2-3 field than see the Elite women's

> field effectively eliminated. Many of the Cat 3s I know (excluding

> myself) were very strong for Cat 4's last year, are exceptional

> athletes, and could easily give many of the 1-2s a run for their

> money. If the choice is between having a Cat 3 women's race and no 1-2

> women's race, and having a combined field that may split up early but

> will be bigger and offer a more diverse level of competition for

> everyone, I would rather race with/against my faster sisters than see

> them have to sit out or be forced to race with the Cat 3 men.

> Just my $0.02.

> - Kat

> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Karey Miles karey.miles@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Hello all you ladies out there:

> >

> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.

> >

> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this
> season, excluding Oregon Cup races.

> >

> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind
> splitting the 1/2/3 field in the first place.

> >

> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to
> promote women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4
> riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there
> are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very
> slim chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?

> >

> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying
> to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a
> mediocre Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's
> field because there is no field available for me to race in.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > Karey Miles

> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team

> >

> >

> > _______________________________________________

> > OBRA_Women mailing list

> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org

> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

> >

> _______________________________________________

> OBRA_Women mailing list

> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Sabrina Savage

Mackenzie and all!

I totally agree with you on this and we deserve the right to have the
opportunity to race and with a larger group as well! If they just score us
seperatly it would be fare to all and we could all race together
in a larger field and still have the motivation for the lower catagories to
want to upgrade and be able to have the opportunity to race at the higher
level weather local or NRC.

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Mackenzie Madison
wrote:

> To all-
>
> Honestly, I believe this is doing exactly what they don't want to happen-
> diminishing the women's 1/2 field. I have just started racing my bike as of
> last year and really don't want to have these opportunities taken away. As I
> said in the survey that Jen sent out:
>
> "I am almost a Cat 2, and almost every, single one of my teammates are also
> Cat 2's... so I can not race with them. AND THEN- even though I'm an uberstrong cat 3 racer, it's like what's the point of upgrading? I still want to
> but if there's going to be no more fields of 1/2, why even have those
> categories?!?! As with my experience from running- there is a team of people
> really good and experienced, mediocre, and beginners. People can move
> throughout these levels depending on what they want to race and how they
> race so shouldn't more levels be offered to continue to motivate people and
> in general women's racing?!?! This is what's going to increase the
> likelihood of people just STAYING as Cat 3 and 4's. It's contributing to a
> worse effect and kind of slapping us in the face as "so long women's
> racing..." What ever happened to Title 9? Do we need the government or
> higher organization to become more of an equal opportunity association? This
> is what could turn OBRA into a not so good thing....
>
> As an FYI, running races, triathlons, swim meets, etc. seed people by times
> generally, or by age. Ours is done by experience but it shouldn't mean that
> you don't get the same opportunity to acquire more of a challenge but yet be
> scored within your division....
>
> Mackenzie
>
>
> ________________________
>
> Mackenzie Madison
> University of Oregon | Graduate Student
> Masters | Exercise Physiology
> 515.669.7472
> ________________________
>
>
> www.GetZoomPerformance.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.
>
> - Lance Armstrong
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:
>
>> Of the cat 3s who have chimed in thus far, it sounds like they would
>> prefer to race with the 1-2s in a 1-2-3 field. So, going back to the way it
>> was is one solution. This way we will not cut out the 1/2s. Maybe we should
>> have a vote? I will send out a vote.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> From: AATWILL@CSICAPITAL.com
>> To: sabrinasavage@gmail.com; jenakeroyd@hotmail.com
>> CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
>> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:23:12 -0800
>> Subject: RE: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>
>> Hi girls,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a very interesting topic; one because I’m a racer, and two because
>> I’m putting on a new race here in Bend this May, Bend Don’t Brake. As a
>> promoter, there is an obvious issue with running an extra field when it
>> comes to cost: officials, judges, cars, time on the course, volunteers,
>> prizes. And then there is the issue of having enough 1/2 racers to warrant
>> another field. As a racer (new Cat 3) I would rather race with the 1/2 women
>> and be scored separately to obtain upgrade points and learn from the better
>> racers. That was what I was planning on doing with the 1/2/3 women in my
>> race. Why is there such a large discrepancy between the number of 3 racers
>> and the 1/2 racers. Why is there such a drop off? Does it have to do with
>> the commitment to racing once you’ve reached the 1/2 level?
>>
>>
>>
>> I would love to have a conversation with racers so that we are running the
>> most accommodating fields for women racers.
>>
>>
>>
>> Amanda Atwill
>>
>>
>>
>> AA
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:
>> obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *Sabrina Savage
>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:06 AM
>> *To:* Jen Akeroyd
>> *Cc:* obra_women@list.obra.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>
>>
>>
>> Jen,
>>
>>
>>
>> I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can
>> workout.
>>
>>
>>
>> However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely
>> seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local
>> races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the
>> 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat
>> 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to
>> race with the 1/2 to become better!
>>
>>
>>
>> Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike
>> racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool
>> we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .
>>
>>
>>
>> I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih
>> is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Jen for the info
>>
>>
>> Sabrina
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd
>> wrote:
>>
>> Karey -
>>
>> Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think
>> any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a
>> separate cat 3 race.
>>
>> I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand
>> where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.
>>
>> I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running
>> separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter
>> and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes
>> nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled
>> these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is
>> possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help
>> fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain
>> volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet
>> the promoters 'half way'.
>>
>> I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other
>> women. Ladies?
>>
>> Jen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
>> > From: karey.miles@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> > To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>> > Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>> >
>>
>> > Hello all you ladies out there:
>> >
>> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
>> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
>> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>> >
>> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
>> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
>> excluding Oregon Cup races.
>> >
>> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
>> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
>> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
>> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
>> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
>> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
>> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
>> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>> >
>> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
>> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
>> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
>> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
>> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
>> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>> >
>> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying
>> to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
>> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
>> because there is no field available for me to race in.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Karey Miles
>> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA_Women mailing list
>> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up
>> now.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>

Mackenzie Madison

To all-

Honestly, I believe this is doing exactly what they don't want to happen-
diminishing the women's 1/2 field. I have just started racing my bike as of
last year and really don't want to have these opportunities taken away. As I
said in the survey that Jen sent out:

"I am almost a Cat 2, and almost every, single one of my teammates are also
Cat 2's... so I can not race with them. AND THEN- even though I'm an
uberstrong cat 3 racer, it's like what's the point of upgrading? I
still want to
but if there's going to be no more fields of 1/2, why even have those
categories?!?! As with my experience from running- there is a team of people
really good and experienced, mediocre, and beginners. People can move
throughout these levels depending on what they want to race and how they
race so shouldn't more levels be offered to continue to motivate people and
in general women's racing?!?! This is what's going to increase the
likelihood of people just STAYING as Cat 3 and 4's. It's contributing to a
worse effect and kind of slapping us in the face as "so long women's
racing..." What ever happened to Title 9? Do we need the government or
higher organization to become more of an equal opportunity association? This
is what could turn OBRA into a not so good thing....

As an FYI, running races, triathlons, swim meets, etc. seed people by times
generally, or by age. Ours is done by experience but it shouldn't mean that
you don't get the same opportunity to acquire more of a challenge but yet be
scored within your division....

Mackenzie

________________________

Mackenzie Madison
University of Oregon | Graduate Student
Masters | Exercise Physiology
515.669.7472
________________________

www.GetZoomPerformance.com

Anything is possible, but you have to believe and you have to fight.

- Lance Armstrong

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:

> Of the cat 3s who have chimed in thus far, it sounds like they would
> prefer to race with the 1-2s in a 1-2-3 field. So, going back to the way it
> was is one solution. This way we will not cut out the 1/2s. Maybe we should
> have a vote? I will send out a vote.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: AATWILL@CSICAPITAL.com
> To: sabrinasavage@gmail.com; jenakeroyd@hotmail.com
> CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:23:12 -0800
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>
> Hi girls,
>
>
>
> This is a very interesting topic; one because I’m a racer, and two because
> I’m putting on a new race here in Bend this May, Bend Don’t Brake. As a
> promoter, there is an obvious issue with running an extra field when it
> comes to cost: officials, judges, cars, time on the course, volunteers,
> prizes. And then there is the issue of having enough 1/2 racers to warrant
> another field. As a racer (new Cat 3) I would rather race with the 1/2 women
> and be scored separately to obtain upgrade points and learn from the better
> racers. That was what I was planning on doing with the 1/2/3 women in my
> race. Why is there such a large discrepancy between the number of 3 racers
> and the 1/2 racers. Why is there such a drop off? Does it have to do with
> the commitment to racing once you’ve reached the 1/2 level?
>
>
>
> I would love to have a conversation with racers so that we are running the
> most accommodating fields for women racers.
>
>
>
> Amanda Atwill
>
>
>
> AA
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:
> obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] *On Behalf Of *Sabrina Savage
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:06 AM
> *To:* Jen Akeroyd
> *Cc:* obra_women@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>
>
>
> Jen,
>
>
>
> I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can
> workout.
>
>
>
> However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely
> seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local
> races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the
> 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat
> 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to
> race with the 1/2 to become better!
>
>
>
> Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike
> racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool
> we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .
>
>
>
> I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih
> is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.
>
>
>
> Thanks Jen for the info
>
>
> Sabrina
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd
> wrote:
>
> Karey -
>
> Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think
> any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a
> separate cat 3 race.
>
> I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand where
> they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.
>
> I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running
> separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter
> and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes
> nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled
> these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is
> possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help
> fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain
> volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet
> the promoters 'half way'.
>
> I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other
> women. Ladies?
>
> Jen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
> > From: karey.miles@gmail.com
>
>
> > To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
> >
>
> > Hello all you ladies out there:
> >
> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
> >
> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
> excluding Oregon Cup races.
> >
> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
> >
> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
> >
> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
> see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
> because there is no field available for me to race in.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Karey Miles
> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA_Women mailing list
> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
> ------------------------------
>
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. Sign up
> now.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>

Sabrina Savage

Heather!

You are completely right and I'm excited to race with you!! That is if they
still will mix the 1-2-3's together. I agree that I believe there has been
enough 3's complaining about being forced to race with the 1/2s! This is why
they are making a seperate feild since there are more of them but there are
not enough 1/2s normally to race their own race! Trust me its no fun having
under 5 women in your feild you can't practice race tactics or anything in a
small feild! Even with the 3s and the larger feilds they can practice on
breaks and other race tactics that may otherwise not be used with such a
small feild.

By not allowing the 1/2s to race what would be the point of the 3's wanting
to upgrade it should be an advantage to upgrading and wanting to upgrade to
race with the faster women and earn the experience and have the possiblity
to go to the larger races if thats what one wants to do.

Hopefully we can get this all worked out!

Smiles!

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Heather VanValkenburg
wrote:

> I think a few years ago, this began with the 3s wanting their own race.
> Since more than half of the senior women's field (1,2,3) were (and probably
> still are) cat 3, many wanted the opportunity to race amongst others at
> their same level. They wanted to finish strong in a race, and not be
> finishing in the middle of the field (since the 1/2s were mostly up the
> road.) It was "intimidating" to race with the 1,2s.
>
> Not all women have aspirations of moving up the race ladder. They are and
> will be satisfied with racing the 3s forever. Personally, my butt and legs
> are too dang big to have aspirations of climbing like a pro. But I miss the
> road community and the flatter races, so, here we go.
>
> I think it's a great advantage to have everyone race together. On the days
> when you're feeling good, you get a chance to hang with the fast group and
> test out your abilities and maybe develop the confidence to race larger
> races or go for the upgrade if that's what you want. On the days when you
> feel... not good, not matter your category, you have others to ride with and
> can still get something out of the experience.
>
> -Heather
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Sabrina Savage wrote:
>
>> Jen,
>>
>> I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can
>> workout.
>>
>> However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely
>> seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local
>> races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the
>> 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat
>> 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to
>> race with the 1/2 to become better!
>>
>> Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike
>> racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool
>> we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .
>>
>> I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih
>> is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.
>>
>> Thanks Jen for the info
>>
>> Sabrina
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:
>>
>>> Karey -
>>>
>>> Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think
>>> any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a
>>> separate cat 3 race.
>>>
>>> I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand
>>> where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.
>>>
>>> I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running
>>> separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter
>>> and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes
>>> nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled
>>> these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is
>>> possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help
>>> fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain
>>> volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet
>>> the promoters 'half way'.
>>>
>>> I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other
>>> women. Ladies?
>>>
>>> Jen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
>>> > From: karey.miles@gmail.com
>>>
>>> > To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>>> > Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>>> >
>>> > Hello all you ladies out there:
>>> >
>>> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
>>> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
>>> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>>> >
>>> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
>>> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
>>> excluding Oregon Cup races.
>>> >
>>> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
>>> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
>>> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
>>> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
>>> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
>>> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
>>> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
>>> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>>> >
>>> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
>>> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
>>> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
>>> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
>>> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
>>> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>>> >
>>> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying
>>> to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
>>> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
>>> because there is no field available for me to race in.
>>> >
>>> > Sincerely,
>>> > Karey Miles
>>> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> -Heather VanValkenburg
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a
> habit." -Aristotle
>
>

Jen Akeroyd

Of the cat 3s who have chimed in thus far, it sounds like they would prefer to race with the 1-2s in a 1-2-3 field. So, going back to the way it was is one solution. This way we will not cut out the 1/2s. Maybe we should have a vote? I will send out a vote.

From: AATWILL@CSICAPITAL.com
To: sabrinasavage@gmail.com; jenakeroyd@hotmail.com
CC: obra_women@list.obra.org
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2010 09:23:12 -0800
Subject: RE: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Hi girls,

This is a very interesting topic; one because I’m a racer, and two because I’m putting on a new race here in Bend this May, Bend Don’t Brake. As a promoter, there is an obvious issue with running an extra field when it comes to cost: officials, judges, cars, time on the course, volunteers, prizes. And then there is the issue of having enough 1/2 racers to warrant another field. As a racer (new Cat 3) I would rather race with the 1/2 women and be scored separately to obtain upgrade points and learn from the better racers. That was what I was planning on doing with the 1/2/3 women in my race. Why is there such a large discrepancy between the number of 3 racers and the 1/2 racers. Why is there such a drop off? Does it have to do with the commitment to racing once you’ve reached the 1/2 level?

I would love to have a conversation with racers so that we are running the most accommodating fields for women racers.

Amanda Atwill

AA

From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Sabrina Savage
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:06 AM
To: Jen Akeroyd
Cc: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Jen,

I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can workout.

However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to race with the 1/2 to become better!

Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .

I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.

Thanks Jen for the info

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:

Karey -

Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a separate cat 3 race.

I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.

I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet the promoters 'half way'.

I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other women. Ladies?

Jen

> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
> From: karey.miles@gmail.com

> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>

> Hello all you ladies out there:
>
> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>
> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season, excluding Oregon Cup races.
>
> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>
> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>
> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field because there is no field available for me to race in.
>
> Sincerely,
> Karey Miles
> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_________________________________________________________________
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Sabrina Savage

Heather,

Yes in Arizona we would race with the 1/2/3 for almost EVERY race except any
big big ones. How they normally tell them apart is number sequence like
having two numbers compared to three or having all the numbers starting with
the same number for the threes and so on. Or MOST already knew who the 3's
where or would have them raise there hands at the beginning.

I defiantly agree with you its much more fun racing with 15-20 racers than
2! I really hope they will race us all together thats how we all learn to
become better!.

Sabrina

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 6:08 PM, Heather VanValkenburg
wrote:

> I'm not sure i completely understand exactly what you are saying. Are you
> saying that there are plans to have a womens 3 field and then make 1/2s race
> with the men?
>
> I'm coming back to the road this year (cat 3) after a couple years focusing
> on either.... nothing... or track. I prefer having a larger field where
> everyone races together. 3s can be scored separately, but it would be nice
> to somehow indicate who the 3s were. In one race I did years ago, ALL women
> (including masters) raced together. one category of women had a short piece
> of colored ribbon pinned to the corner of their number. That way riders can
> keep track of who they are racing against.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Karey Miles wrote:
>
>> Hello all you ladies out there:
>>
>> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
>> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
>> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>>
>> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
>> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
>> excluding Oregon Cup races.
>>
>> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
>> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
>> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
>> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
>> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
>> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
>> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
>> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>>
>> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
>> people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
>> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
>> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
>> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
>> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>>
>> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
>> see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
>> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
>> because there is no field available for me to race in.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Karey Miles
>> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>
>
>
> --
> -Heather VanValkenburg
> "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a
> habit." -Aristotle
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>

Amanda Atwill

Hi girls,

This is a very interesting topic; one because I'm a racer, and two because I'm putting on a new race here in Bend this May, Bend Don't Brake. As a promoter, there is an obvious issue with running an extra field when it comes to cost: officials, judges, cars, time on the course, volunteers, prizes. And then there is the issue of having enough 1/2 racers to warrant another field. As a racer (new Cat 3) I would rather race with the 1/2 women and be scored separately to obtain upgrade points and learn from the better racers. That was what I was planning on doing with the 1/2/3 women in my race. Why is there such a large discrepancy between the number of 3 racers and the 1/2 racers. Why is there such a drop off? Does it have to do with the commitment to racing once you've reached the 1/2 level?

I would love to have a conversation with racers so that we are running the most accommodating fields for women racers.

Amanda Atwill

AA
________________________________
From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Sabrina Savage
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 9:06 AM
To: Jen Akeroyd
Cc: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Jen,

I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can workout.

However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to race with the 1/2 to become better!

Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .

I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.

Thanks Jen for the info

Sabrina
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd > wrote:
Karey -

Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a separate cat 3 race.

I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.

I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet the promoters 'half way'.

I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other women. Ladies?

Jen

> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
> From: karey.miles@gmail.com

> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>
> Hello all you ladies out there:
>
> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>
> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season, excluding Oregon Cup races.
>
> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>
> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>
> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field because there is no field available for me to race in.
>
> Sincerely,
> Karey Miles
> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Heather VanValkenburg

I think a few years ago, this began with the 3s wanting their own race.
Since more than half of the senior women's field (1,2,3) were (and probably
still are) cat 3, many wanted the opportunity to race amongst others at
their same level. They wanted to finish strong in a race, and not be
finishing in the middle of the field (since the 1/2s were mostly up the
road.) It was "intimidating" to race with the 1,2s.

Not all women have aspirations of moving up the race ladder. They are and
will be satisfied with racing the 3s forever. Personally, my butt and legs
are too dang big to have aspirations of climbing like a pro. But I miss the
road community and the flatter races, so, here we go.

I think it's a great advantage to have everyone race together. On the days
when you're feeling good, you get a chance to hang with the fast group and
test out your abilities and maybe develop the confidence to race larger
races or go for the upgrade if that's what you want. On the days when you
feel... not good, not matter your category, you have others to ride with and
can still get something out of the experience.

-Heather

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Sabrina Savage wrote:

> Jen,
>
> I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can
> workout.
>
> However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely
> seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local
> races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the
> 1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat
> 3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to
> race with the 1/2 to become better!
>
> Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike
> racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool
> we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .
>
> I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih
> is fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.
>
> Thanks Jen for the info
>
> Sabrina
>
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:
>
>> Karey -
>>
>> Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think
>> any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a
>> separate cat 3 race.
>>
>> I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand
>> where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.
>>
>> I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running
>> separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter
>> and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes
>> nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled
>> these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is
>> possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help
>> fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain
>> volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet
>> the promoters 'half way'.
>>
>> I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other
>> women. Ladies?
>>
>> Jen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
>> > From: karey.miles@gmail.com
>>
>> > To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>> > Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>> >
>> > Hello all you ladies out there:
>> >
>> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
>> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
>> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>> >
>> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
>> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
>> excluding Oregon Cup races.
>> >
>> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
>> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
>> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
>> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
>> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
>> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
>> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
>> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>> >
>> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
>> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
>> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
>> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
>> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
>> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>> >
>> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying
>> to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
>> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
>> because there is no field available for me to race in.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> > Karey Miles
>> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA_Women mailing list
>> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA_Women mailing list
>> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>

--
-Heather VanValkenburg
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a
habit." -Aristotle

Heather VanValkenburg

I'm not sure i completely understand exactly what you are saying. Are you
saying that there are plans to have a womens 3 field and then make 1/2s race
with the men?

I'm coming back to the road this year (cat 3) after a couple years focusing
on either.... nothing... or track. I prefer having a larger field where
everyone races together. 3s can be scored separately, but it would be nice
to somehow indicate who the 3s were. In one race I did years ago, ALL women
(including masters) raced together. one category of women had a short piece
of colored ribbon pinned to the corner of their number. That way riders can
keep track of who they are racing against.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Karey Miles wrote:

> Hello all you ladies out there:
>
> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that
> promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing
> a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>
> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
> excluding Oregon Cup races.
>
> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women
> to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated
> that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last
> year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as
> one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of
> view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I
> guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in
> the first place.
>
> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
> people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>
> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
> see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
> because there is no field available for me to race in.
>
> Sincerely,
> Karey Miles
> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>

--
-Heather VanValkenburg
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a
habit." -Aristotle

Sabrina Savage

Jen,

I also agree we need to sit down with the promoters and see what we can
workout.

However I do not think its nescessary for the 1/2's to have completely
seperate feild since its always bettter to have a larger feild. MOST local
races that I've been too in Arizona, and in California most of them mix the
1-2-3's for this very reason why these other promoters are just havign a cat
3 races since they have higher numbers. however when i was a 3 I wanted to
race with the 1/2 to become better!

Let me know who I need to talk to! Because I moved out here for the bike
racing (and family) and If I cant race but only with the guys thats not cool
we should at lest have the option to race with the 3's .

I already asked for the Cherry Pie and I have to race with the guys whcih is
fine but i was looking forward to racing with the ladies out here.

Thanks Jen for the info

Sabrina

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 7:10 AM, Jen Akeroyd wrote:

> Karey -
>
> Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think
> any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a
> separate cat 3 race.
>
> I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand where
> they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.
>
> I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running
> separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter
> and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes
> nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled
> these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is
> possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help
> fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain
> volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet
> the promoters 'half way'.
>
> I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other
> women. Ladies?
>
> Jen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
> > From: karey.miles@gmail.com
>
> > To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
> >
> > Hello all you ladies out there:
> >
> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
> >
> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
> excluding Oregon Cup races.
> >
> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
> >
> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
> women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
> will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
> willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
> >
> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
> see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
> because there is no field available for me to race in.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Karey Miles
> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA_Women mailing list
> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>

Jen Akeroyd

Karey -

Thank you for starting this discussion. And, Kat, I agree - I don't think any of us imagined that the cat 1-2s would be cut out of the equation for a separate cat 3 race.

I think we need to sit down with some of the promoters and understand where they are coming from and where we could possibly help out.

I am helping to coordinate Team Group Health's IVRR. We are running separate cats for 1-2, 3s and 4s. How? With a commitment from the promoter and MANY volunteers to staff all of the roles except officiating. It takes nearly 75 volunteer positions to run this event. I have successfully filled these roles last year and am nearly done filling them this year (i.e. it is possible). So, my point is, we (as a community of women) may need to help fill earlier volunteer roles in the day (say, the cat 4 field) to gain volunteers for our race in the afternoon. Just an idea....and trying to meet the promoters 'half way'.

I am more than happy to meet with the promoters along with some other women. Ladies?

Jen

> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:40:10 -0800
> From: karey.miles@gmail.com
> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing
>
> Hello all you ladies out there:
>
> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>
> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season, excluding Oregon Cup races.
>
> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>
> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>
> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field because there is no field available for me to race in.
>
> Sincerely,
> Karey Miles
> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/

sabrinasavage@gmail.com

Hey ladies!

I'm new to the vancouver area and am a cat 1 racer! I am a bit confused why they do not just make a womens 1-2-3 field and either score together or separate depending on the race!

This is how must of the races were at the local level in arizona where I use to live. This way it gives the cat 3 women to get better with experience with the 1-2s.

On a side note these cat 3s will eventually upgrade to a 2 as well!

I do enjoy racing with the guys and womens races but we should still have the option to race with the 1-2-3s not all women want to race with the boys!

Who should we contact about this ladies? Since I'm new hear I'm not sure!
Thanks
Sabrina savage
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

-----Original Message-----
From: "Candi Murray"
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:45:40
To: 'Karey Miles';
Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

I think what is needed here is some numbers.
According to OBRA membership at the end of 2009, the breakdown for women was
Cat 1 12 riders, 5 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 2
have not raced in 2 years or more
Cat 2 51 riders, 12 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 5
have not raced in 2 years or more.
Cat 3 102 riders, 16 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away

If you take the standard percentages about of the available riders that
actually show up at any given event. That would mean that 1-2 cat 1s, and
less then 5 cat 2s would show up. We have had multiple races where we have
had to cancel the Sr Women fields because the minimum field size of 5 was
not met. What we have had is an increased call from the Cat 3 women not to
be required to ride with the 1/2 women. Of all the women categories the 1/2
field is the most undependable to get a field together.

I do not think that the move away from having Sr Women fields is a done
deal, but now is the time to contact the race organizers and express what it
is that you women want.
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Karey Miles
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:40 PM
To: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Hello all you ladies out there:

This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that
promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing
a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.

So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
excluding Oregon Cup races.

As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women
to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated
that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last
year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as
one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of
view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I
guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in
the first place.

I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?

Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
because there is no field available for me to race in.

Sincerely,
Karey Miles
Therapeutic Associates Women's Team

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Candi Murray

I think what is needed here is some numbers.
According to OBRA membership at the end of 2009, the breakdown for women was
Cat 1 12 riders, 5 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 2
have not raced in 2 years or more
Cat 2 51 riders, 12 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away, 5
have not raced in 2 years or more.
Cat 3 102 riders, 16 who live in other states greater then 100 miles away

If you take the standard percentages about of the available riders that
actually show up at any given event. That would mean that 1-2 cat 1s, and
less then 5 cat 2s would show up. We have had multiple races where we have
had to cancel the Sr Women fields because the minimum field size of 5 was
not met. What we have had is an increased call from the Cat 3 women not to
be required to ride with the 1/2 women. Of all the women categories the 1/2
field is the most undependable to get a field together.

I do not think that the move away from having Sr Women fields is a done
deal, but now is the time to contact the race organizers and express what it
is that you women want.
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org
[mailto:obra_women-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Karey Miles
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:40 PM
To: obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Women] Women 1/2 fields in OBRA racing

Hello all you ladies out there:

This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that
promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing
a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.

So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
excluding Oregon Cup races.

As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women
to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated
that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last
year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as
one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of
view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I
guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in
the first place.

I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how
people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote
women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders,
will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are
willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?

Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to
see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
because there is no field available for me to race in.

Sincerely,
Karey Miles
Therapeutic Associates Women's Team

_______________________________________________
OBRA_Women mailing list
OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women

Karey Miles

Heather and all,

Yes, just for clarification, so far, the races that have this set up are
having a Cat 3 only field, and no 1/2 womens field. The Cat 1/2's are
"allowed to race with the Cat 3 or Cat 1/2 men, if desired, but will not be
scored seperately."

I have just noticed that the first couple of WA races are set up so that the
1/2 women are racing with the Masters A/B men, but they ARE scored
separately. Even though this does not totally float my boat, at least the
1/2 women are given a chance to be scored and prized as their own field.

Karey

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Kat Reinhart wrote:

> This is definitely an issue - I saw this on the Cherry Pie site and
> didn't believe it. Thanks for bringing it up, Karey.
>
> When there was a long discussion about having a separate Cat 3 field
> over this email list last year, I don't think that any of the women
> who spoke up about having a separate Cat 3 field meant or imagined
> that that would make the promoters take away the Cat 1-2 women's
> field. The consensus wanted the addition of a field, not substitution
> of Cat 3 for 1-2-3.
>
> Even as a brand-new, out-of-shape and highly-intimidated Cat 3, I
> would rather race a combined 1-2-3 field than see the Elite women's
> field effectively eliminated. Many of the Cat 3s I know (excluding
> myself) were very strong for Cat 4's last year, are exceptional
> athletes, and could easily give many of the 1-2s a run for their
> money. If the choice is between having a Cat 3 women's race and no 1-2
> women's race, and having a combined field that may split up early but
> will be bigger and offer a more diverse level of competition for
> everyone, I would rather race with/against my faster sisters than see
> them have to sit out or be forced to race with the Cat 3 men.
>
> Just my $0.02.
>
> - Kat
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Karey Miles
> wrote:
> > Hello all you ladies out there:
> >
> > This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement
> that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not
> providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
> >
> > So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard
> rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season,
> excluding Oregon Cup races.
> >
> > As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level
> women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am
> frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt
> that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but
> raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a
> promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they
> already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting
> the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
> >
> > I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as
> how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to
> promote women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4
> riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there
> are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim
> chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
> >
> > Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying
> to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre
> Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field
> because there is no field available for me to race in.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Karey Miles
> > Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA_Women mailing list
> > OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
> >
>

Kat Reinhart

This is definitely an issue - I saw this on the Cherry Pie site and
didn't believe it. Thanks for bringing it up, Karey.

When there was a long discussion about having a separate Cat 3 field
over this email list last year, I don't think that any of the women
who spoke up about having a separate Cat 3 field meant or imagined
that that would make the promoters take away the Cat 1-2 women's
field. The consensus wanted the addition of a field, not substitution
of Cat 3 for 1-2-3.

Even as a brand-new, out-of-shape and highly-intimidated Cat 3, I
would rather race a combined 1-2-3 field than see the Elite women's
field effectively eliminated. Many of the Cat 3s I know (excluding
myself) were very strong for Cat 4's last year, are exceptional
athletes, and could easily give many of the 1-2s a run for their
money. If the choice is between having a Cat 3 women's race and no 1-2
women's race, and having a combined field that may split up early but
will be bigger and offer a more diverse level of competition for
everyone, I would rather race with/against my faster sisters than see
them have to sit out or be forced to race with the Cat 3 men.

Just my $0.02.

- Kat

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Karey Miles wrote:
> Hello all you ladies out there:
>
> This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.
>
> So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season, excluding Oregon Cup races.
>
> As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am  frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field.  I felt that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as one field worked out pretty well.  I understand, from a promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in the first place.
>
> I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how people feel about this change.  Do you feel that this is going to promote women's racing as a whole?  In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve?  How many Cat 1/2 women out there are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?
>
> Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear.  I'm trying to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre Cat 2,  not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field because there is no field available for me to race in.
>
> Sincerely,
> Karey Miles
> Therapeutic Associates Women's Team
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>

Karey Miles

Hello all you ladies out there:

This is just a feeler email to see how you all feel about the movement that promoters seem to be making to provide a Cat 3 only field, and not providing a seperate, or scored separate Cat 1/2 field.

So far, 3 of the races this season are planned that way, and I've heard rumors that this may be what we are going to see much more of this season, excluding Oregon Cup races.

As much as I think it is an excellent opportunity for the elite level women to be able to race and get their butts kicked by the men, I am frustrated that we are not given the chance to have our own field. I felt that last year, the step toward having the Cat 3's scored separately, but raced all as one field worked out pretty well. I understand, from a promoters point of view, that it is hard to run one more field than they already do, but I guess I'm just not seeing the reasoning behind splitting the 1/2/3 field in the first place.

I'm curious as what spurred this decision in the promoters, as well as how people feel about this change. Do you feel that this is going to promote women's racing as a whole? In the path of developing Cat 3 and 4 riders, will the Cat 1/2 field dissolve? How many Cat 1/2 women out there are willing to go race with these men on a regular basis, with a very slim chance of winning, gaining upgrade points, winning prizes?

Any thoughts on this from all of you would be good to hear. I'm trying to see it from a different angle, but it is frustrating to me, as a mediocre Cat 2, not to be able to race competitively in a strong women's field because there is no field available for me to race in.

Sincerely,
Karey Miles
Therapeutic Associates Women's Team