Kim Rueter
Great points, Martha. I think a little panic was starting to set in ;-)
I¹m a CAT 3/Master and would love the chance to race against other CAT 3s
exclusively once in a blue moon (for the exact reasons already mentioned). I
agree that racing with the 1-2s helps us learn, and lets us know how hard
we¹ll have to work to contend with them one day, but we don¹t need to be
reminded of that at every race ;-)
It would be nice if promoters could mix it up for us. My favorite format is
for the 3s to have their own race but with the option to race with the 1-2s
if they want to. So it would look like this, potentially even scoring the
Masters separately if they meet a predetermined minimum:
CAT 4/Masters CAT 4
CAT 3/Masters CAT 3
CAT 1/2/3
Giving the more confident CAT 3s the option to race with the 1/2s will serve
to better balance out the fields. This is especially appealing to the bigger
teams who want to race with their CAT 1/2 teammates. Alternatively, the
newer CAT 3s (including Masters 3s) can choose to race the ³CAT 3/Masters²
race if they are not yet ready to race with the 1/2s, or if they are just
not interested in the potentially longer distances of the 1/2/3 race. The 4s
(including Masters 4s) will certainly have their own race too. Each of those
respective fields, in theory, should be 20-30+ strong, giving all categories
a descent field size and the peer grouping they desire.
I think this is the plan for the Cherry Blossom Classic (I hope!). If it is,
I believe women will choose to participate at this event just for this
offering.
Crits are different story. I don¹t mind racing with the 1/2s, in fact I
prefer it! I don¹t lack experience, I lack fitness. ;-) In a crit you don¹t
have that token climb (sometimes within the first 10 minutes of a 50+ mile
road race) to blow up the field, leaving the 3s to a race of attrition
rather then getting to control their own fate. In a crit we¹re on a more
even (as in flat) playing field and we tend to stay together longer. But
again, there are certainly new CAT 3s that would prefer not to just jump
into a fast CAT 1/2 crit. If the crit promoter can offer the same breakdown
I mentioned above, then the 3s get to choose and everyone is happy!! Yeah
Pro Choice!
Thanks for listening,
Kim Rueter
On 1/25/10 12:16 PM, "Martha Walsh" wrote:
> Karey,
>
> I don't think anyone should infer the demise of cat 1-2 women's racing based
> on the flyers for two early-season races. In fact, the Sublime Sublimity and
> As the Raven Flies races both indicate combined cat 1-2-3 fields on their
> flyers.. I am sure that the usual breakdown of women's racing into cat 4s and
> cat 1-2-3s will predominate throughout the season. A few events--Salem
> Criterium and Cherry Blossom among them--are trying to host 3 women's races to
> enhance racing opportunities for women.
>
> If you race as a cat 3 and race well enough to earn the upgrade points, then
> you'll be ready for racing with the 1-2s when the time comes. And if you
> don't want to be a cat 2, well, then, the joy of a team sport is that you can
> exhaust yourself helping your teammates win so that you don't accrue any more
> points.
>
> It might be interesting to go back and see how many cat 1-2 women have raced
> the men's races early in the season in previous years, even when a cat 1-2-3
> women's race was offered. A quick review of 2009 results found at least one
> cat 1-2 woman in the cat 1-2 men's field at Cherry Pie (and just 3 in the
> women's race), 2 women in men's races at Sublime Sublimity, and 3 women
> finishers in men's races at Banana Belt 1. So having cat 1-2 women race in
> men's categories is not a new concept thought up by promoters for 2010--those
> women themselves have been doing it for years.
>
> -Martha
>
>
>
> From: Karey Miles
> To: Martha Walsh
> Cc: Jen Akeroyd ; obra_women@list.obra.org
> Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 9:28:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Women] Survey Results!
>
> Thank you for your input Martha. From an experienced racer, and one who has
> been around OBRA and racing for longer than many of us "newbies" have, it is
> good that you are trying to help figure out the phenomenon of the drop out
> rate of upper level racing.
>
> I just want to reiterate, that in this conversation, I understand and respect
> what promoters are trying to do. They are testing this approach and if it
> works, it works, and if it doesn't, then we go to the next step. I am trying
> to understand it from all sides, and I think it is really great that all these
> women have strong opinions about it.
>
> My next question, I guess, is what happens to the Cat 3's who are wanting to
> go to the next level of riding? It seems to me that there is no incentive to
> work towards and no point to even continue racing as a Cat 3, in fear of
> having to upgrade to a Cat 2 and having to race with the men. Where is the
> development and support of elite women's cycling? How are women who are
> striving to get to the Pro level and still get upgrade points through weekend,
> local racing supposed to do so, if they don't have a field to race in?
>
> Overall, I do understand and support developing riders and giving them a fair
> chance to not get their butts handed to them day in and day out - but I think
> that the Cat 1/2's deserve a chance to have that same playing field and to not
> be combined AND scored with the men.
>
> Karey Miles
>
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Martha Walsh wrote:
>> Thanks, Jen, for pulling together the survey results from this small sample.
>> I¹d like to encourage riders to step back from ³I want² to understanding how
>> racing cat 3 women separately will help the sport.
>>
>> Consider some of the (many) women who have tried bike racing and seldom
>> return (see Candi¹s data). The beginning rider comes to a race and discovers
>> that other cat 4s have been racing for years and are hardly beginners. She
>> gets dropped, doesn¹t have much fun, and doesn¹t come back. The moderately
>> strong cat 4 is loathe to upgrade because it will mean she has to race with
>> the cat 1-2s. The newbie cat 3 shows up for a cat 1-2-3 race, gets dropped,
>> doesn¹t have much fun, and doesn¹t come back (very often) to bike racing.
>> Most women are in this sport for fun and fitness and camaraderie, and that
>> element is currently missing for a lot of people.
>>
>> Cat 3 women wrote to this very email list last year that they didn¹t like to
>> be combined with the cat 1-2s because they were not competitive, they did not
>> develop as riders, it was a huge waste of a $25 entry fee, and a better
>> workout could be had on a nice training ride. So, pretty much, they hardly
>> ever come to bike races.
>>
>> As for learning from the 1-2s: you learn by doing, not by watching. The 1-2s
>> should be mentoring their cat 3 teammates during winter training. A
>> cat-3-only race is an unparalleled opportunity for cat 3s to come out and try
>> all those tactical things they¹ve heard about and watched. A cat 3 race is a
>> race with your peers; if you launch an attack that gets brought back, no cat
>> 1 is going to counterand send you out the back. You are more evenly matched
>> with the other riders and with your teammates in the race. You learn more
>> and learn it faster, and you earn cat 2 upgrade points quicker.
>>
>> This is called growing the sport. It¹s not going to change overnight, and
>> there will be growing pains. But no one has abolished cat 1-2-3 racing, and
>> I¹m pretty sure you¹ll still see a lot of it on the OBRA calendar (Kings
>> Valley comes to mind). If the cat 4 playing field is more level, more riders
>> will come out to play and stick with it. If the upgrade to cat 3 is not an
>> enormous leap and offers a learning experience instead of a humbling
>> experience, more will make that move. And they¹ll gain skills and
>> confidence, and soon the cat 1-2 peloton will be able to sustain reasonable
>> field sizes of its own. For those who don¹t aspire to upgrade past cat 3,
>> racing will be fun, challenging, and excitingnot a lesson in futility week
>> in and week out.
>>
>> Please don¹t criticize the promoters who are trying to solve the problem of
>> often tiny women¹s fields. If you look at how many licensed cat 1-2-3s there
>> are, and how few turn up to most races, it¹s clear beyond the bounds of this
>> survey that the current system of combining fields does not motivate a lot of
>> them to race. Try something new! If it doesn¹t work, it doesn¹t work. But
>> see what happens before you decide.
>>
>> -Martha Walsh
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jen Akeroyd
>> To: obra_women@list.obra.org
>> Sent: Mon, January 25, 2010 7:55:31 AM
>> Subject: [OBRA Women] Survey Results!
>>
>> Ladies -
>>
>> 23 cat 3 women have completed the survey - thanks! The survey, itself, has
>> stirred-up interest too. I have received requests to include more questions
>> and comments that it is oversimplisitic. Survey Monkey is free and easy to
>> use.
>>
>> Preliminary results:
>>
>> - 23 votes
>> - 16 (69.6%) cat 3s want to race in a combined 1-2-3 field
>> - 7 (30.4%) cat 3s would prefer a 3 field
>>
>> Comments reflected an understanding that the cat 1/2s may be eliminated from
>> races in order to run a cat 3-only race (e.g. Cherry Pie). Overwhelmingly,
>> voters for the 1-2-3 field requested separate scoring.
>>
>> So, that is the info we have so far. Again, feel free to create a survey more
>> encompassing. I have pasted the comments from the survey below.
>>
>> Jen
>>
>> Comments:
>>
>> 1.
>> I'd prefer to ride with the 1/2s long as they are scored separately. There is
>> so much to learn from them, and it allows teams to race together n larger
>> groups. The only exception might be for crits. Sun, Jan 24, 2010 8:00 PM
>> 2.. Frankly - I can't get that motivated to pay money to get my ass handed to
>> me every time I show up to a race. Train harder, you say? i don't want to -
>> it's a HOBBY! but if i'm just going to race mid-pack all the time I can go on
>> rides with my guy friends for free and get dropped on the very first hill.
>> Sun, Jan 24, 2010 5:27 PM
>> 3. To promote larger fields and mentoring opportunities. 3's scored
>> seperately. Sun, Jan 24, 2010 4:56 PM
>> 4. Better to race with faster, more experienced women. Better to have a
>> larger field. Like to still have 3's scored separately. Sun, Jan 24, 2010
>> 4:06 PM
>> 5. I would love to have a separate Cat 3 field, but definitely not if that
>> means getting rid of the Cat 1/2 field! Sun, Jan 24, 2010 3:42 PM
>> 6. but not at the expense of the 1-2's... Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:16 PM
>> 7. This is the way it's always been. Sun, Jan 24, 2010 2:06 PM
>> 8. Now if there are enough racers to warrant a separate 1-2 field and Cat 3
>> that would be best but not to eliminate the cat 1,2 womens race> Sun, Jan 24,
>> 2010 1:17 PM
>> 9. I feel it is only fair for the 3s to be scored separately. Sun, Jan 24,
>> 2010 12:53 PM
>> 10.. Make one large field and score 3s separately Sun, Jan 24, 2010 12:50 PM
>> 11. i don't want the 1, 2's to be grouped in with the men... but as a new
>> cat3 i'm happy if i can hang with my pack instead of being shaved off early
>> by a break from a 1,2 in the race. it's so demoralizing. i think every cat3
>> racer wants to race a race at their level and not just chase down more
>> skilled racers. Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:56 AM
>> 12. Actually, I would prefer a mix of some races each way, but that's not an
>> option. Also, if a cat3-only field means the cat1/2 women must race with the
>> men, I'm fine with a 1-2-3 field! Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:49 AM
>> 13. Combined field...but ALWAYS scored seperately. Sun, Jan 24, 2010 11:46 AM
>> 14. I am almost a Cat 2, and almost every, single one of my teammates are
>> also Cat 2's.... so I can not race with them. AND THEN- even though I'm an
>> uber strong cat 3 racer, it's like what's the point of upgrading? I still
>> want to but this is what's going to increase the likelihood of people just
>> STAYING as Cat 3 and 4's. It's contributing to a worse effect.....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>>
>>
>>
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