dacrizzow

it's illegal, bottom line. although at times when i decide it's ridiculous for me to sit there with no car in sight i might. as far as being a typical portland DOUCHBAG and giving your little speech-STFU! if all you guys don't think it's ok to flip off a motorist that purposfully buzzes you or cuts you off then keep your mouth shut when you see a biker run a light. and if you have a reply to this that's cool but keep it on the public board, i don't want any of you guys filling up my personal e mail.

sandersp1@juno.com

Page 80 of the state driver's manual starts the section about bikes - :

"Bicycle use on streets and highways is growing daily, both for exercise
and transportation in city areas. The same traffic rules and regulations
apply to both bicyclists and vehicle drivers..."

Mr. Pete
____________________________________________________________
Senior Assisted Living
Put your loved ones in good hands with quality senior assisted living. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/c?cp=cS7jDh51TLKUSay5VtPaYQAAJ1AfUIGwD0xDF29zrdn6R-l4AAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASUQAAAAA=

Ron and Dorothy Strasser

I agree Mark.... The red light running behavior (unless exceptional situations as some mentioned) reflects the "ME" over everything else attitude that our society spends most of it's time and resources on...... Me this, Me that. ME ME ME
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark J. Ginsberg
To: Juanito ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

yes, i do let lights dictate what I do.

I hope you don't get hit

and yes you do make me look bad.

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Juanito
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 10:40:10 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Y'all seriously let a bunch of blinking light bulbs dictate what to do? Red light = Yield when I am on my bike. Check to make sure it is safe to continue on, as in, no fuzz or anyone that could be put in danger by all 180 lbs. of my bike and me. Stop lights are inefficient anyway, what ever happened to the homeboy with the white gloves and a whistle. What's the under/unemployment rate up in Portland these days, 25%? Are idling automobiles doing anything good for any of us?
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ron and Dorothy Strasser

I called a guy out today for the same thing and got flipped off. I just let
it go after a couple of minutes and some other positive things taking place
on my ride. Oh yeah. This person also was so together that he does not
even need a helmet for his riding.... on and on it goes. Michelle. Do what
you feel is right.
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michelle Mishoe"
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:26 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning
> commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without
> even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that
> the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at
> another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians
> to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was
> still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red
> light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my
> own business, it's his choice.
>
> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a
> few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a
> bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his
> choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
>
> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I
> shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone
> else have said something?
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mark J. Ginsberg

(503) 823-safe

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: mohair
To: OBRA-Chat
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 2:28:51 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

So whom do I contact in PDOT to have a signal loop retuned? The left turn signal at Capitol Hwy and Terwilliger Blvd used to work nicely and no longer does. Note that I'm riding a steel frame.

Can I assume that if ride over the center of the cyclist icon on the pavement, the light is more likely to change?

Thank you one and all.

On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:16 AM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

Jay,
>
>the issue you are facing is a magnet sensitivity issue, or a placement issue.
>
>the conduction loop will pick up your rear hub even if you have a carbon bike, but you need to know where to place yourself.
>
>here is the city of portland's pdf on that subject:
>http://www.portlandonline.com/shared/cfm/image.cfm?id=145110
>
>you can also talk to your local municipality and they can change the sensitivity of the induction loop to better detect cyclists.
>
>M
>

Brady Brady

I've had best luck with looking at the circle in the pavement (sensor), placing wheels so they are directly over the circle (imagine a chord intersecting a circle. Some such chord will have wheelbase = to that of your bike. Place wheel bottoms on the circle at the 2 points where such a chord intersects the circle.) and rocking the bike back and forth a little. (inch or so fore and aft.)

This seems to work pretty well at any sensor (non-broken) I've seen.

Brady Brady
SAS Financial Services Business Unit
brady.brady@sas.com
Office: 503.629.8023
Fax: 503.629.8986
Mobile: 503.545.2110

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of mohair
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 2:29 PM
To: OBRA-Chat
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

So whom do I contact in PDOT to have a signal loop retuned? The left turn signal at Capitol Hwy and Terwilliger Blvd used to work nicely and no longer does. Note that I'm riding a steel frame.

Can I assume that if ride over the center of the cyclist icon on the pavement, the light is more likely to change?

Thank you one and all.

On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:16 AM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

Jay,

the issue you are facing is a magnet sensitivity issue, or a placement issue.

the conduction loop will pick up your rear hub even if you have a carbon bike, but you need to know where to place yourself.

here is the city of portland's pdf on that subject:
http://www.portlandonline.com/shared/cfm/image.cfm?id=145110

you can also talk to your local municipality and they can change the sensitivity of the induction loop to better detect cyclists.

M

mohair

So whom do I contact in PDOT to have a signal loop retuned? The left turn signal at Capitol Hwy and Terwilliger Blvd used to work nicely and no longer does. Note that I'm riding a steel frame.

Can I assume that if ride over the center of the cyclist icon on the pavement, the light is more likely to change?

Thank you one and all.

On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:16 AM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

> Jay,
>
> the issue you are facing is a magnet sensitivity issue, or a placement issue.
>
> the conduction loop will pick up your rear hub even if you have a carbon bike, but you need to know where to place yourself.
>
> here is the city of portland's pdf on that subject:
> http://www.portlandonline.com/shared/cfm/image.cfm?id=145110
>
> you can also talk to your local municipality and they can change the sensitivity of the induction loop to better detect cyclists.
>
> M

Edward Groth

The proper thing to do at a malfunctioning signal is to dismount and
moonwalk across that intersection.

Then call 503-823-SAFE and ask the city to fix it.

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Dan Silvernail
wrote:
> Officially:  Never
>
> Unoffically:  if it's 6 am and you are at an intersection, all alone,
> no cars around, and the light won't change until a car rolls up to trip the
> sensor, do you wait and wait?  Yes, this does happen to me on nearly a daily
> basis.  Yes, I do go through the red light, AFTER stopping and NEVER if
> there are vehicles at the intersection.  There are 3 stop lights on my
> daily commute that will not change unless there is a car in the lane.
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Rick C Johnson
> wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>> What might be some legal or liability concerns be that would apply to this
>> situation - say if the person running the light caused an accident?
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> Rick Johnson
>> Bend, Oregon
>>
>> "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" - George
>> Santayana
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
>>
>>> I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
>>> I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"
>>>
>>> sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger
>>> group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.
>>>
>>> sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an
>>> idiot.
>>> your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially in
>>> light of your getting to work the same time as him while not breaking the
>>> law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a bad image.
>>>
>>> M
>>>  Mark J. Ginsberg
>>> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
>>> Attorneys At Law
>>> 1216 SE Belmont St.
>>> Portland, OR 97214
>>> (503) 542-3000
>>> Fax (503) 233-6874
>>> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
>>> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Michelle Mishoe
>>> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
>>> *Sent:* Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
>>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
>>>
>>> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning
>>> commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without
>>> even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that
>>> the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another
>>> red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear
>>> the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red.
>>> Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied
>>> to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's
>>> his choice.
>>>
>>> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a
>>> few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad
>>> name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice.
>>> Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
>>>
>>> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I
>>> shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone
>>> else have said something?
>>>
>>> Michelle
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Josh Cady

I guess that depends on if the traffic cams and red light cameras are
recording your passage :).

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:35 PM, jennifer levo wrote:

> When it comes to red lights, I normally abide by my own personal "if a
> tree falls in the woods" scenario. Meaning... I will stop 100% of the time I
> approach a red light on my bike. However... if the sensor fails to trigger
> or I am in some huge rush, I look around. If I can't see anyone else there
> or approaching from any direction (bikes, cars, pedestrians)... I will treat
> the light as a four way stop and proceed on my way. Meaning, much like the
> proverbial question of "if a tree falls in the woods does it make a
> sound?"... if I run a red light and no one is there to see it, did I really
> run it?
> -jenn
>
> ------------------------------
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

jennifer levo

When it comes to red lights, I normally abide by my own personal "if a tree falls in the woods" scenario. Meaning... I will stop 100% of the time I approach a red light on my bike. However... if the sensor fails to trigger or I am in some huge rush, I look around. If I can't see anyone else there or approaching from any direction (bikes, cars, pedestrians)... I will treat the light as a four way stop and proceed on my way. Meaning, much like the proverbial question of "if a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound?"... if I run a red light and no one is there to see it, did I really run it?-jenn
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/

Lisa

This bring me to my experience last night...making a right turn from a stop sign, I almost hit a cyclist flying down a hill. He was wearing dark clothes, riding a dark bike and was going against the arrow in the bike lane...who would have been at fault if I had struck him?

--- On Thu, 2/18/10, Michelle Mishoe wrote:

From: Michelle Mishoe
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 9:26 AM

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Joe Cipale

Brady Brady wrote:

> If society can somehow condition most men not to belch and fart publicly,

Better out than in, I always say...

(and no, I DONT MEAN George!)

Robert Anderson

So, after running all those red lights, making cyclists look bad, and acting
like a complete douche, he didn't even arrive at his destination faster than
you did. Huh? Almost sounds like it wasn't even worth it.

-Rob Anderson

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Michelle Mishoe wrote:

> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning
> commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without
> even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that
> the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another
> red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear
> the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red.
> Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied
> to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's
> his choice.
>
> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few
> more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad
> name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice.
> Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
>
> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I
> shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone
> else have said something?
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Ben Fischler

On Feb 18, 2010, at 9:34 AM, KO Kevin wrote:

> Sorry, I don't ever recall running a red light (unless you count riding through a yellow and not quite making it across when the light changes). I think that running a red is an indefensible offense.

Agreed, although as a semi-reformed NYC kid who did time messengering, it's painful to sit at an empty red waiting. How does one mitigate the pain? By understanding that change only happens by example. If I want PDX to one day be like Copenhagen, then I know that I've got to do my part, which includes obeying the law, doing the right thing and setting a good example.

My 2cents only. No refunds.

[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]

Mark J. Ginsberg

just replace the bike with a car and ask the same question.

I ran a red light with my car and caused a crash. is that a problem?

your answer will appear.

M
:-)

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Rick C Johnson
To: Mark J. Ginsberg
Cc: Michelle Mishoe ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 9:46:50 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Mark,
What might be some legal or liability concerns be that would apply to this situation - say if the person running the light caused an accident?

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

> I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
> I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"
>
> sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.
>
> sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an idiot.
> your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially in light of your getting to work the same time as him while not breaking the law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a bad image.
>
> M
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Michelle Mishoe
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
>
> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.
>
> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
>
> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mark J. Ginsberg

yes, i do let lights dictate what I do.

I hope you don't get hit

and yes you do make me look bad.

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Juanito
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 10:40:10 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Y'all seriously let a bunch of blinking light bulbs dictate what to do? Red light = Yield when I am on my bike. Check to make sure it is safe to continue on, as in, no fuzz or anyone that could be put in danger by all 180 lbs. of my bike and me. Stop lights are inefficient anyway, what ever happened to the homeboy with the white gloves and a whistle. What's the under/unemployment rate up in Portland these days, 25%? Are idling automobiles doing anything good for any of us?
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Joe Cipale

Just a heary 'Eff You!' followed by a raised finger.

tackyglueit wrote:

> has anyone ever had anything positive come from saying something to someone
> who is blatantly guilty of violating the law?
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Michelle Mishoe wrote:
>
> > Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning
> > commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without
> > even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that
> > the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another
> > red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear
> > the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red.
> > Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied
> > to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's
> > his choice.
> >
> > To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few
> > more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad
> > name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice.
> > Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
> >
> > I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I
> > shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone
> > else have said something?
> >
> > Michelle
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >

lisa graham

I always say something,but thats just me..I even yell at myself, when on that rare occasion I run a red light ,really ! Lisa Graham

h

p i

u l

Me after a long ride ^^ l

> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:26:29 -0800
> From: orangejelly7@gmail.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
>
> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.
>
> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
>
> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/

Juanito

Y'all seriously let a bunch of blinking light bulbs dictate what to do? Red light = Yield when I am on my bike. Check to make sure it is safe to continue on, as in, no fuzz or anyone that could be put in danger by all 180 lbs. of my bike and me. Stop lights are inefficient anyway, what ever happened to the homeboy with the white gloves and a whistle. What's the under/unemployment rate up in Portland these days, 25%? Are idling automobiles doing anything good for any of us?

Brady Brady

Imagine going through life getting crapped on all day for a particular behavior. It would be pretty draining. Enough peer pressure can effect change in people's habits. This pressure in this instance has to come from cyclists, though (seen as WE), not vehicle drivers (seen as THEY).

If society can somehow condition most men not to belch and fart publicly, my guess is that the cycling community, if committed, could probably condition most cyclists to behave in all manner of ways.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of tackyglueit
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:09 AM
To: Michelle Mishoe
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

has anyone ever had anything positive come from saying something to someone who is blatantly guilty of violating the law?
On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Michelle Mishoe > wrote:
Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jay Rideout

I was wondering what happened... can I have mine back please.

________________________________
From: Shane Y. Gibson
To: John Fricker
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 10:06:17 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

John Fricker wrote:
I've thought about trying a rare earth magnet on the back of a pedal to see if I could trigger lights. If you crack open an old hard disk you can find a couple of those.
It doesn't work.  I've tried.  Okay - well, it does work - but it took 15 hard drives cracked open before I got it to work.  

v/r
Shane

--
Wicked Race Director
Wicked Adventure Racing, LLC
http://www.WickedAR.com/

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature,
nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding
danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life
is either a daring adventure or nothing." ** Helen Keller **

Joe Cipale

In both WA and OR, you ARE allowed to run a red light *IF* the light is stuck and will not trigger to change color to allow you to proceed. Then the light is treated as a 4-way stop.

Long, Steve wrote:

> Those stupid bike sensor's don't work on carbon. What then?
>
> =20
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Dan Silvernail
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:00 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
>
> =20
>
> Officially: Never
>
> =20
>
> Unoffically: if it's 6 am and you are at an intersection, all alone, no
> cars around, and the light won't change until a car rolls up to trip the
> sensor, do you wait and wait? Yes, this does happen to me on nearly a
> daily basis. Yes, I do go through the red light, AFTER stopping and
> NEVER if there are vehicles at the intersection. There are 3 stop
> lights on my daily commute that will not change unless there is a car in
> the lane.=20=20=20
>
> =20
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Rick C Johnson
> wrote:
>
> Mark,
> What might be some legal or liability concerns be that would apply to
> this situation - say if the person running the light caused an accident?
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
>
> "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" -
> George Santayana
>
>
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
>
> I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
> I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"
>
> sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger
> group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.
>
> sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an
> idiot.
> your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially in
> light of your getting to work the same time as him while not breaking
> the law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a bad image.
>
> M
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
>
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
> >=20
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Michelle Mishoe
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
>
> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning
> commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through
> without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled
> to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got
> caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some
> pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the
> light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him
> that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told
> me to mind my own business, it's his choice.
>
> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a
> few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a
> bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his
> choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
>
> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I
> shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would
> anyone else have said something?
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
>
> obra@list.obra.org =20
>
>
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> =20
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> =20

Mark J. Ginsberg

Jay,

the issue you are facing is a magnet sensitivity issue, or a placement issue.

the conduction loop will pick up your rear hub even if you have a carbon bike, but you need to know where to place yourself.

here is the city of portland's pdf on that subject:
http://www.portlandonline.com/shared/cfm/image.cfm?id=145110

you can also talk to your local municipality and they can change the sensitivity of the induction loop to better detect cyclists.

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Jay Rideout
To: Michelle Mishoe ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 10:02:25 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Location: Tacoma
When I leave for work, about 3:30am, I "run" several red lights as the bike does not always trigger the mechanism and I might be sitting there over 5 minutes before a car comes along that will trigger the change mechanism. But it's foot down before proceding and if there are other vehicles at the intesection then I wait my turn.

But I realize that it's still running a red light and may face the consequence of getting a ticket

----- Original Message ----
From: Michelle Mishoe
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

tackyglueit

has anyone ever had anything positive come from saying something to someone
who is blatantly guilty of violating the law?

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Michelle Mishoe wrote:

> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning
> commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without
> even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that
> the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another
> red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear
> the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red.
> Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied
> to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's
> his choice.
>
> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few
> more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad
> name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice.
> Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
>
> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I
> shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone
> else have said something?
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Shane Y. Gibson

John Fricker wrote:

I've thought about trying a rare
earth magnet on the back of a pedal to see if I could trigger lights.
If you crack open an old hard disk you can find a couple of those.

-- 

Wicked Race Director         

Wicked Adventure Racing, LLC

http://www.WickedAR.com/            

"Security is mostly a superstition.  It does not exist in nature,

 nor do  the children of  men as a whole experience it.  Avoiding 

 danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure.  Life 

 is either a daring adventure or nothing."     ** Helen Keller **

John Fricker

I've thought about trying a rare earth magnet on the back of a pedal to see if I could trigger lights. If you crack open an old hard disk you can find a couple of those.

On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:01 AM, Long, Steve wrote:

> Those stupid bike sensor’s don’t work on carbon. What then?
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Dan Silvernail
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:00 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
>
> Officially: Never
>
> Unoffically: if it's 6 am and you are at an intersection, all alone, no cars around, and the light won't change until a car rolls up to trip the sensor, do you wait and wait? Yes, this does happen to me on nearly a daily basis. Yes, I do go through the red light, AFTER stopping and NEVER if there are vehicles at the intersection. There are 3 stop lights on my daily commute that will not change unless there is a car in the lane.
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Rick C Johnson wrote:
> Mark,
> What might be some legal or liability concerns be that would apply to this situation - say if the person running the light caused an accident?
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
>
> "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana
>

Jay Rideout

Location: Tacoma
When I leave for work, about 3:30am, I "run" several red lights as the bike does not always trigger the mechanism and I might be sitting there over 5 minutes before a car comes along that will trigger the change mechanism.  But it's foot down before proceding and if there are other vehicles at the intesection then I wait my turn.

But I realize that it's still running a red light and may face the consequence of getting a ticket

----- Original Message ----
From: Michelle Mishoe
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Long, Steve

Those stupid bike sensor's don't work on carbon. What then?

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Dan Silvernail
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:00 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Officially: Never

Unoffically: if it's 6 am and you are at an intersection, all alone, no
cars around, and the light won't change until a car rolls up to trip the
sensor, do you wait and wait? Yes, this does happen to me on nearly a
daily basis. Yes, I do go through the red light, AFTER stopping and
NEVER if there are vehicles at the intersection. There are 3 stop
lights on my daily commute that will not change unless there is a car in
the lane.

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Rick C Johnson
wrote:

Mark,
What might be some legal or liability concerns be that would apply to
this situation - say if the person running the light caused an accident?

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" -
George Santayana

Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"

sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger
group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.

sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an
idiot.
your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially in
light of your getting to work the same time as him while not breaking
the law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a bad image.

M
Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com

www.bikesafetylaw.com
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Michelle Mishoe
*To:* obra@list.obra.org
*Sent:* Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
*Subject:* [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning
commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through
without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled
to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got
caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some
pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the
light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him
that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told
me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a
few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a
bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his
choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I
shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would
anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Dan Silvernail

Officially: Never

Unoffically: if it's 6 am and you are at an intersection, all alone,
no cars around, and the light won't change until a car rolls up to trip the
sensor, do you wait and wait? Yes, this does happen to me on nearly a daily
basis. Yes, I do go through the red light, AFTER stopping and NEVER if
there are vehicles at the intersection. There are 3 stop lights on my
daily commute that will not change unless there is a car in the lane.

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Rick C Johnson wrote:

> Mark,
> What might be some legal or liability concerns be that would apply to this
> situation - say if the person running the light caused an accident?
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
>
> "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" - George
> Santayana
>
>
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
>
> I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
>> I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"
>>
>> sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger
>> group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.
>>
>> sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an
>> idiot.
>> your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially in
>> light of your getting to work the same time as him while not breaking the
>> law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a bad image.
>>
>> M
>> Mark J. Ginsberg
>> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
>> Attorneys At Law
>> 1216 SE Belmont St.
>> Portland, OR 97214
>> (503) 542-3000
>> Fax (503) 233-6874
>> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
>> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Michelle Mishoe
>> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
>> *Sent:* Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
>>
>> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning
>> commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without
>> even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that
>> the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another
>> red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear
>> the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red.
>> Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied
>> to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's
>> his choice.
>>
>> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a
>> few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad
>> name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice.
>> Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?
>>
>> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I
>> shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone
>> else have said something?
>>
>> Michelle
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>>
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org > obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

T. Kenji Sugahara

Perhaps it may be good for one of our law enforcement racers to have a
nice discussion with this individual.

Brady Brady

If the guy is in the middle of the desert, alone, hits a light and decides he doesn't want to wait, and is OK with the $242 fine should he somehow be caught-I say, fine, blow the light. No complaining / rationalizing, though, should he be caught.

Mostly we're not in the desert alone, which brings into play the idea of acting as a member of the cycling community (whether or not we'd like to be) in such a manner as to further-rather than diminish-its standing within the greater community. As Mark points out, some people get this, some people don't. And of those who get it, some care, some don't.

Michelle, whether or not you call the guy out, you're a member of the cycling community, and suffer from the "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly" phenomenon Mark mentions. Therefore, I'm not buying this guy's argument that his actions are none of your business.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Ginsberg
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:40 AM
To: Michelle Mishoe; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"

sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.

sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an idiot.
your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially in light of your getting to work the same time as him while not breaking the law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a bad image.

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Michelle Mishoe
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chipp

My Sauvie loop route takes me south on Vancouver Ave. from Prescott and I can't begin to tell you the number of hipster doofuss' (doofi?) that I see running/slowing/blowing/etc. red lights. I too yell whilst waiting at the red. It's fun to chase them down and give them more than an earfull but they usually peel off if they see me bombin' a** towards them. Stopping and waiting with motorists looking at you waiting to see if you're going to ride through the red but instead wait , just like them, does so much good for our cause.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark J. Ginsberg
To: Michelle Mishoe ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"

sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.

sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an idiot.
your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially in light of your getting to work the same time as him while not breaking the law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a bad image.

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michelle Mishoe
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2695 - Release Date: 02/18/10 07:34:00

Randy Dreiling

I would and do say something because it reflects bad on all riders.
Wonder if a rider blows though a red light on their bike and gets hits by a car driven by another person who is a bike rider also, that poor driver has to live with that all their life.

Bike riders actions have effects...I remember years ago a critical mass ride blocked a bridge ( I can't stand critical mass, just an excuse for people to act out or at least at that time in Eugene it was... 1/2 the riders wore mask covering their faces...I don't think it really has to do with bikes and more to do with people wanting to be anti something) , well in the process they blocked an ambulance with a very sick 6 year kid in it and he nearly died. That got a lot of media stories and after that riding around Eugene you could see and sense the extra light people put on bike riders and it was not good.

Bottom line as bike riders we need to respect people because we are being watched all the time.

Randy Dreiling
Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com
Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Michelle Mishoe
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick C Johnson

Mark,
What might be some legal or liability concerns be that would apply to
this situation - say if the person running the light caused an accident?

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana

Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

> I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
> I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"
>
> sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger
> group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.
>
> sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an
> idiot.
> your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially
> in light of your getting to work the same time as him while not
> breaking the law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a
> bad image.
>
> M
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Michelle Mishoe
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
>
> Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my
> morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go
> through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself,
> I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we
> both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He
> waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded
> through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop
> myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped
> and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.
>
> To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged
> a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives
> cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful
> and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists
> thought that way?
>
> I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps
> I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would
> anyone else have said something?
>
> Michelle
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Mark J. Ginsberg

I usually say something, but I try to make it about me, rather than them
I say things like, "when you ride that way, car drivers treat me poorly"

sadly, while most of us are good, 'person on bicycle" is a much larger group, and are all seen in the light of it's worst members.

sometimes i don't say anything, when it is obvious the offender is an idiot.
your building mate, may be someone who could be talked to, especially in light of your getting to work the same time as him while not breaking the law, and putting himself in danger and giving us all a bad image.

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Michelle Mishoe
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thu, February 18, 2010 9:26:29 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

KO Kevin

Sorry, I don't ever recall running a red light (unless you count riding through a yellow and not quite making it across when the light changes). I think that running a red is an indefensible offense. At least at a stop sign you can plead the track stand defense, but not so at a red light.

Kevin Ko
Eugene

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 9:35 AM
To: Michelle Mishoe; obra-bounces@list.obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?

It is never ok to run a red light, but we all have done it. That guy will change his toon when he gets smoked by a car after running a red light.

Scott
------Original Message------
From: Michelle Mishoe
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
Sent: Feb 18, 2010 9:26 AM

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

halfwheelhill@yahoo.com

It is never ok to run a red light, but we all have done it. That guy will change his toon when he gets smoked by a car after running a red light.

Scott
------Original Message------
From: Michelle Mishoe
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] When is OK for a cyclist to run a red light?
Sent: Feb 18, 2010 9:26 AM

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Michelle Mishoe

Good Morning- I just had an encounter with another cyclist on my morning commute. We got caught a red light, which he decided to go through without even putting a foot down. Before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the light applied to him. He kept going. Then we both got caught at another red light a couple of blocks later. He waited for some pedestrians to clear the intersection, then proceeded through while the light was still red. Again before I could stop myself, I yelled to him that the red light applied to him. He stopped and not so politely told me to mind my own business, it's his choice.

To my great good fortune, this guy works in my building. We exchanged a few more words. He's heard it all before- such behavior gives cyclists a bad name, blah, blah, blah. He insisted he's always careful and it's his choice. Hmmm...wonder what would happen if motorists thought that way?

I do need to remember that people don't like to be called out- perhaps I shouldn't say anything unless someone is in imminent danger. Would anyone else have said something?

Michelle