Jerry Powell

OK... but the points were:



1/ that there isn't a point at which pedalling is effortless



2/ that the range of best efficiency is narrower for an untrained

person than for a trained one, and that the fixed gear training

widens the range through which a cyclist pedals (relatively)

efficiently



3/ that forcing the wider range of pedal pressures and speeds is less

efficient and thus both expends more energy and increases the

training effect.



And while I haven't seen the 40lb thesis... I rather think it more

supports the stuff that Pruit and others have been saying for 20

years than refutes it. I think I disagree that "the only thing that

has really been shown to be associated with ability to output a large

amount of work is the ability to push down hard." It seems to me

that ANY increase in efficiency... like unloading the up-travelling

pedal and/or better managing the transitions from pull to push would

yield less negative return to power.



Previous posts had assumed that there was some positive energy put on

the pedal through the whole pedal cycle, and that pedal speed had

little to do with efficiency... Those were the wrong assumptions that

I was responding to.



Jerry





At 10:17 PM -0700 6/19/02, mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

 Jerry Powell [mailto:psu0-@pdx.edu] wrote:

"Actually, the exercise phys guys that have studied pedalling tell us that

no-one ever completely stops pushing down on a pedal, regardless of whether

its coming up or going down."



This is not necessarily a bad thing or "working against yourself" as it is

likely more efficient to use the extensor muscles of the opposite leg to

push the leg up rather than use the relatively weak hip flexor muscle to

lift the leg. It has been estimated that to just unload the pedal, i.e.

make it so there is no downward force when the pedal is going up, requires

lifting the leg with about 40 lbs of force. Imagine trying to lift 40 lbs

attached to your foot repeatedly and compare that to pushing down with your

leg on a see saw with 40 lbs on the other end and you start to see the

efficiency argument. In fact, despite all the attention paid to pedaling

styles the only thing that has really been shown to be associated with

ability to output a large amount of work is the ability to push down hard.

Pulling up hard or even "wasting" energy by push down on a bottom dead

center pedal does not really seem to significantly effect power output.



Mike Murray



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

--

mike.m-@obra.org

Jerry Powell [mailto:psu0-@pdx.edu] wrote:

"Actually, the exercise phys guys that have studied pedalling tell us that

no-one ever completely stops pushing down on a pedal, regardless of whether

its coming up or going down."



This is not necessarily a bad thing or "working against yourself" as it is

likely more efficient to use the extensor muscles of the opposite leg to

push the leg up rather than use the relatively weak hip flexor muscle to

lift the leg. It has been estimated that to just unload the pedal, i.e.

make it so there is no downward force when the pedal is going up, requires

lifting the leg with about 40 lbs of force. Imagine trying to lift 40 lbs

attached to your foot repeatedly and compare that to pushing down with your

leg on a see saw with 40 lbs on the other end and you start to see the

efficiency argument. In fact, despite all the attention paid to pedaling

styles the only thing that has really been shown to be associated with

ability to output a large amount of work is the ability to push down hard.

Pulling up hard or even "wasting" energy by push down on a bottom dead

center pedal does not really seem to significantly effect power output.



Mike Murray

Jerry Powell

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"



Actually, the exercise phys guys that have studied pedalling tell us

that no-one ever completely stops pushing down on a pedal, regardless

of whether its coming up or going down. In other words the best you

can hope for, even if you've got a really good pedal technique, is

that you'll take MOST of your weight off the pedal when you THINK

you're pulling up. This was all verified using pedals equipped with

strain guages a long time ago. SO, anytime you're pedalling, you're

to some extent working against yourself. The cleanest pedaling style

results in the least wasted energy. Because there's a difference in

optimum pedalling speed when the optimum is calculated versus aerobic

efficiency and when calculated versus muscle efficiency... there is

no clear answer to what speed is the most efficient, or at what pedal

speeds (min or max) efficiency starts to fall off. What can be said,

is that developing a "clean" pedalling technique over a range of

pedal speeds gives a racer an advantage because he can choose

lactosis or oxygen debt according to the tactical situation. Riding

fixed gear allows one to develop or "train" that facility. With

respect to which is more tiring... There might be too many factors to

generalize... the chain is shorter; the rider is pedaling at really

inefficient pedal speeds a greater percentage of the time; there are

no "dead spots" (Mr. Ormerud's *push*) at top and bottom dead center;

there's no rest opportunity... and the list goes on.



Me? I like riding the fixed just because I like the feel of the

direct drive and the quickness of the 25 year old retired track bike

I ride for training.



bye



Jerry   (USAC Elite Cycling Coach)





At 11:53 PM -0700 6/18/02, Hopkins, Larry wrote:

 Has anyone ever tried a SRM watt meter on a fixed gear? I suspect

the SRM would measure a negative torque on down hills which would

mean a net flow of energy into the rider. As we know this

is impossible, since there is no way for the energy to be absorbed

by the rider. It is wasted as heat and the rider ends up

working regardless of whether they are going down hill, on the

flats. As George says, they are working anytime the wheels are

turning. The opposite is true on a freewheel when the rider coasts.



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:42 PM

To: Gil Ormerod; obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing



It is largely about gearing. In fact, I have always found it harder

to spin a freewheel bike at the same cadence for as long as I can in

a fixed gear, assuming they are in the same gear. The difference is

that with a fixed gear I cannot bail out on the hills and when I get

tired, I cannot shift to a larger gear.



There are additional factors though. On a freewheel bike, even on

the flats, there are periods where you coast a bit in a pace line,

and on a fixed gear, you never let up. Also, even when the cranks

seem to be forcing your legs around, you are doing work to stay on

top of the gear, as it becomes very painful to your knees if you

truly let the cranks move your legs. On a fixed gear bike, you

never stop working.





                           George C. Schreck

                            Phone: (503) 813-7211

                            Fax: (503) 813-7190







-----Original Message-----

From: Gil Ormerod [mailto:sd-@concentric.net]

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:25 AM

To: Schreck, George; obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing



So a single speed would have the same training effect as a fixed

gear bike, right? You'd be undergeared on the flats, overgeared on

the hills, and you could just keep pedaling on the downhills.



The point is that there is nothing inherent in the fixed gear bike

that makes it any harder to ride 50 miles than it would be on a

geared bike. If you want, you can always stick it in the same gear

and just not shift. In fact, if people trained in this fashion,

riding their geared bike in a 63 inch gear, not shifting, and not

coasting, they would have an even *better* workout. They'd be

lugging all that extra weight of a chainring, 8 or 9 cogs,

derailleurs etc. AND they'd have a great mental workout due to the

concentration and grit required to not shift to keep up on the hills

or the flats.



But seriously, David's note provides evidence that, under similar

conditions the fixed gear uses less energy than the non-fixed bike.

Riding the rollers takes away any of the effects of hills or trying

to keep up with geared riders. It also, on the other side of the

coin, eliminates the weight advantage that a fixie has over a road

bike.



Now, sure, if you ride in the hills it might take more energy on a

fixed gear bike than on a geared bike, but it's going to depend on

what hills you ride and just how hard you push on your geared bike.

If you're riding a 63 inch gear up Thompson on your road bike,

what's the difference?



If you cruise out to Sauvie, do a lap, and head back, which bike

will cause you to use the most energy? No hills to speak of on that

ride, (depending on where you start from, of course. Let's say 27th

and Thurman.) I think the answer is that it won't matter which bike

you ride, it will just matter how hard you push yourself.



The advantage of training on a fixed gear bike is twofold. You

learn to have a supple and fluid spin on the downhills and the

flats, and you're forced into a power workout on the hills. But

this does not mean that riding a fixed is equivalent to riding some

greater multiple of miles on a geared bike. How hard you push

yourself is how hard you push yourself, whatever bike you ride.



Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you ride is stupid and

pointless, but that's another rant. :-)



"Schreck, George" wrote:



 Gil, part of the reason why people say that is in addition to

downhills, usually you are undergeared on flats and overgeared on

hills, so if you work harder than you would on a geared bike. I

know last winter that I did some 50 mile rides where I was more

tired than some 100 mile rides on my geared bike due to the need to

keep up with the geared bikes. If he used the same gear on the

rollers, that portion of the difficulty would be

eliminated.                           George C. Schreck

                            Phone: (503) 813-7211

                            Fax: (503) 813-7190

--







--============_-1187593059==_ma============

Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"



<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">

<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--

blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }

--></style><title>RE: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller

raci</title></head><body>

<div>Actually, the exercise phys guys that have studied pedalling tell

us that no-one ever completely stops pushing down on a pedal,

regardless of whether its coming up or going down.  In other

words the best you can hope for, even if you've got a really good

pedal technique, is that you'll take MOST of your weight off the pedal

when you THINK you're pulling up.  This was all verified using

pedals equipped with strain guages a long time ago.  SO, anytime

you're pedalling, you're to some extent working against yourself. 

The cleanest pedaling style results in the least wasted energy. 

Because there's a difference in optimum pedalling speed when the

optimum is calculated versus aerobic efficiency and when calculated

versus muscle efficiency... there is no clear answer to what speed is

the most efficient, or at what pedal speeds (min or max) efficiency

starts to fall off.  What can be said, is that developing a

"clean" pedalling technique over a range of pedal speeds

gives a racer an advantage because he can choose lactosis or oxygen

debt according to the tactical situation.  Riding fixed gear

allows one to develop or "train" that facility.  With

respect to which is more tiring... There might be too many factors to

generalize... the chain is shorter; the rider is pedaling at really

inefficient pedal speeds a greater percentage of the time; there are

no "dead spots" (Mr. Ormerud's *push*) at top and bottom

dead center; there's no rest opportunity... and the list goes

on.</div>

<div><br></div>

<div>Me? I like riding the fixed just because I like the feel of the

direct drive and the quickness of the 25 year old retired track bike I

ride for training.</div>

<div><br></div>

<div> bye</div>

<div><br></div>

<div>Jerry   (USAC Elite Cycling Coach)</div>

<div><br></div>

<div><br></div>

<div>At 11:53 PM -0700 6/18/02, Hopkins, Larry wrote:</div>

<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"

color="#0000FF">Has anyone ever tried a SRM watt meter on a fixed

gear?  I suspect the SRM would measure a negative torque on

down hills which would mean a net flow of energy into

the rider.  As we know this is impossible, since there

is no way for the energy to be absorbed by the rider.  It is

wasted as heat and the rider ends up working regardless of

whether they are going down hill, on the flats.  As George

says, they are working anytime the wheels are

turning.  The opposite is true on a freewheel when the

rider coasts. </font><br>

<blockquote><font size="-1">-----Original Message-----<br>

<b>From:</b> Schreck, George

[mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]<br>

<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:42 PM<br>

<b>To:</b> Gil Ormerod; obra<br>

<b>Subject:</b> RE: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller

racing</font><br>

<font size="-1"></font></blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#0000FF">It is largely

about gearing. In fact, I have always found it harder to spin a

freewheel bike at the same cadence for as long as I can in a fixed

gear, assuming they are in the same gear.  The difference is that

with a fixed gear I cannot bail out on the hills and when I get tired,

I cannot shift to a larger gear. </font></blockquote>

<blockquote> </blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#0000FF">There are

additional factors though.  On a freewheel bike, even on the

flats, there are periods where you coast a bit in a pace line, and on

a fixed gear, you never let up.  Also, even when the cranks seem

to be forcing your legs around, you are doing work to stay on top of

the gear, as it becomes very painful to your knees if you truly let

the cranks move your legs.  On a fixed gear bike, you never stop

working.</font></blockquote>

<blockquote> <br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial"

size="-1"

            <span

</span

           <span

</span>   </font><font face="Arial"

color="#800000"><i><b> George C. Schreck</b></i></font><br>

<font face="Arial"

color="#800000"><i><b

            <span

</span

           <span

</span>     Phone: (503)

813-7211</b></i></font><br>

<font face="Arial"

color="#800000"><i><b

            <span

</span

           <span

</span>     Fax: (503)

813-7190</b></i></font><br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote> <br>

<blockquote><font face="Times New Roman" size="-1">-----Original

Message-----<br>

<b>From:</b> Gil Ormerod [mailto:sd-@concentric.net]<br>

<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:25 AM<br>

<b>To:</b> Schreck, George; obra<br>

<b>Subject:</b> Re: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller

racing</font><br>

<font face="Times New Roman" size="-1"></font></blockquote>

<blockquote>So a single speed would have the same training effect as a

fixed gear bike, right?  You'd be undergeared on the flats,

overgeared on the hills, and you could just keep pedaling on the

downhills.<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>The point is that there is nothing inherent in the fixed

gear bike that makes it any harder to ride 50 miles than it would be

on a geared bike.  If you want, you can always stick it in the

same gear and just not shift.  In fact, if people trained in this

fashion, riding their geared bike in a 63 inch gear, not shifting, and

not coasting, they would have an even *better* workout.  They'd

be lugging all that extra weight of a chainring, 8 or 9 cogs,

derailleurs etc.  AND they'd have a great mental workout due to

the concentration and grit required to not shift to keep up on the

hills or the flats.</blockquote>

<blockquote><br></blockquote>

<blockquote>But seriously, David's note provides evidence that, under

similar conditions the fixed gear uses less energy than the non-fixed

bike.  Riding the rollers takes away any of the effects of hills

or trying to keep up with geared riders.  It also, on the other

side of the coin, eliminates the weight advantage that a fixie has

over a road bike.<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>Now, sure, if you ride in the hills it might take more

energy on a fixed gear bike than on a geared bike, but it's going to

depend on what hills you ride and just how hard you push on your

geared bike.  If you're riding a 63 inch gear up Thompson on your

road bike, what's the difference?<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>If you cruise out to Sauvie, do a lap, and head back,

which bike will cause you to use the most energy?  No hills to

speak of on that ride, (depending on where you start from, of course. 

Let's say 27th and Thurman.)  I think the answer is that it won't

matter which bike you ride, it will just matter how hard you push

yourself.<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>The advantage of training on a fixed gear bike is

twofold.  You learn to have a supple and fluid spin on the

downhills and the flats, and you're forced into a power workout on the

hills.  But this does not mean that riding a fixed is equivalent

to riding some greater multiple of miles on a geared bike.  How

hard you push yourself is how hard you push yourself, whatever bike

you ride.<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you ride is stupid

and pointless, but that's another rant. :-)<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>"Schreck, George" wrote:<br>

<blockquote type="cite" cite> Gil, part of the reason why people

say that is in addition to downhills, usually you are undergeared on

flats and overgeared on hills, so if you work harder than you would on

a geared bike.  I know last winter that I did some 50 mile rides

where I was more tired than some 100 mile rides on my geared bike due

to the need to keep up with the geared bikes.  If he used the

same gear on the rollers, that portion of the difficulty would be

eliminated. <font face="Arial"

size="-1"

            <span

</span

           <span

</span>   </font><font face="Arial"

color="#800000"><i><b> George C. Schreck</b></i></font><br>

<font face="Arial"

color="#800000"><i><b

            <span

</span

           <span

</span>     Phone: (503)

813-7211</b></i></font></blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>

<blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial"

color="#800000"><i><b

            <span

</span

           <span

</span>     Fax: (503)

813-7190</b></i></font><br>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

<div><br></div>

<x-sigsep><pre>--

</pre></x-sigsep>

<div><br></div>







</body>

</html>

--============_-1187593059==_ma============--

Hopkins, Larry

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Has anyone ever tried a SRM watt meter on a fixed gear? I suspect the SRM would measure a negative torque on down hills which would mean a net flow of energy into the rider. As we know this is impossible, since there is no way for the energy to be absorbed by the rider. It is wasted as heat and the rider ends up working regardless of whether they are going down hill, on the flats. As George says, they are working anytime the wheels are turning. The opposite is true on a freewheel when the rider coasts.



-----Original Message-----

From: Schreck, George [mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:42 PM

To: Gil Ormerod; obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing





It is largely about gearing. In fact, I have always found it harder to spin a freewheel bike at the same cadence for as long as I can in a fixed gear, assuming they are in the same gear. The difference is that with a fixed gear I cannot bail out on the hills and when I get tired, I cannot shift to a larger gear.



There are additional factors though. On a freewheel bike, even on the flats, there are periods where you coast a bit in a pace line, and on a fixed gear, you never let up. Also, even when the cranks seem to be forcing your legs around, you are doing work to stay on top of the gear, as it becomes very painful to your knees if you truly let the cranks move your legs. On a fixed gear bike, you never stop working.





                          George C. Schreck

                           Phone: (503) 813-7211

                           Fax: (503) 813-7190







-----Original Message-----

From: Gil Ormerod [mailto:sd-@concentric.net]

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:25 AM

To: Schreck, George; obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing





So a single speed would have the same training effect as a fixed gear bike, right? You'd be undergeared on the flats, overgeared on the hills, and you could just keep pedaling on the downhills.



The point is that there is nothing inherent in the fixed gear bike that makes it any harder to ride 50 miles than it would be on a geared bike. If you want, you can always stick it in the same gear and just not shift. In fact, if people trained in this fashion, riding their geared bike in a 63 inch gear, not shifting, and not coasting, they would have an even *better* workout. They'd be lugging all that extra weight of a chainring, 8 or 9 cogs, derailleurs etc. AND they'd have a great mental workout due to the concentration and grit required to not shift to keep up on the hills or the flats.





But seriously, David's note provides evidence that, under similar conditions the fixed gear uses less energy than the non-fixed bike. Riding the rollers takes away any of the effects of hills or trying to keep up with geared riders. It also, on the other side of the coin, eliminates the weight advantage that a fixie has over a road bike.





Now, sure, if you ride in the hills it might take more energy on a fixed gear bike than on a geared bike, but it's going to depend on what hills you ride and just how hard you push on your geared bike. If you're riding a 63 inch gear up Thompson on your road bike, what's the difference?





If you cruise out to Sauvie, do a lap, and head back, which bike will cause you to use the most energy? No hills to speak of on that ride, (depending on where you start from, of course. Let's say 27th and Thurman.) I think the answer is that it won't matter which bike you ride, it will just matter how hard you push yourself.





The advantage of training on a fixed gear bike is twofold. You learn to have a supple and fluid spin on the downhills and the flats, and you're forced into a power workout on the hills. But this does not mean that riding a fixed is equivalent to riding some greater multiple of miles on a geared bike. How hard you push yourself is how hard you push yourself, whatever bike you ride.





Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you ride is stupid and pointless, but that's another rant. :-)





"Schreck, George" wrote:





Gil, part of the reason why people say that is in addition to downhills, usually you are undergeared on flats and overgeared on hills, so if you work harder than you would on a geared bike. I know last winter that I did some 50 mile rides where I was more tired than some 100 mile rides on my geared bike due to the need to keep up with the geared bikes. If he used the same gear on the rollers, that portion of the difficulty would be eliminated.                           George C. Schreck

                           Phone: (503) 813-7211

                           Fax: (503) 813-7190



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<BODY>

<DIV><SPAN class=594513906-19062002><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT

size=2>Has anyone ever tried a SRM watt meter on a fixed gear?  I

suspect the SRM would measure a negative torque on down hills which would

mean a net flow of energy into the rider.  As we know this

is impossible<SPAN class=098254806-19062002>,</SPAN> since there is no way

for the energy to be absorbed by the rider<SPAN class=098254806-19062002>. 

I</SPAN>t is wasted as heat and the rider ends up working <SPAN

class=098254806-19062002>regardless of </SPAN>whether <SPAN

class=098254806-19062002>they are </SPAN>going down hill, on the flats<SPAN

class=098254806-19062002>.  As George says, they are working

anytime t</SPAN>he wheels are turning.  The opposite is true on

a freewheel when the rider coasts.  </FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Schreck, George

[mailto:george.-@pacificorp.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 18, 2002

1:42 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Gil Ormerod; obra<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] The

history of rollers and roller racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=320363420-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>It

is largely about gearing. In fact, I have always found it harder to spin a

freewheel bike at the same cadence for as long as I can in a fixed gear,

assuming they are in the same gear.  The difference is that with a fixed

gear I cannot bail out on the hills and when I get tired, I cannot shift to a

larger gear. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=320363420-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=320363420-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>There are additional factors though.  On a freewheel bike,

even on the flats, there are periods where you coast a bit in a pace line, and

on a fixed gear, you never let up.  Also, even when the cranks seem to be

forcing your legs around, you are doing work to stay on top of the gear, as it

becomes very painful to your knees if you truly let the cranks move your

legs.  On a fixed gear bike, you never stop working.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<P><FONT face=Arial

size=2>                         <B><I></I></B></FONT><B><I>

<FONT face=Arial color=#800000>George C. Schreck</FONT></I></B>

<BR><B><I><FONT face=Arial

color=#800000>                          

Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT face=Arial

color=#800000>                          

Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT></I></B> </P>

<DIV> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"

    size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Gil Ormerod

    [mailto:sd-@concentric.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:25

    AM<BR><B>To:</B> Schreck, George; obra<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat]

    The history of rollers and roller racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>So a single

    speed would have the same training effect as a fixed gear bike, right? 

    You'd be undergeared on the flats, overgeared on the hills, and you could

    just keep pedaling on the downhills.

    <P>The point is that there is nothing inherent in the fixed gear bike that

    makes it any harder to ride 50 miles than it would be on a geared

    bike.  If you want, you can always stick it in the same gear and just

    not shift.  In fact, if people trained in this fashion, riding their

    geared bike in a 63 inch gear, not shifting, and not coasting, they would

    have an even *better* workout.  They'd be lugging all that extra weight

    of a chainring, 8 or 9 cogs, derailleurs etc.  AND they'd have a great

    mental workout due to the concentration and grit required to not shift to

    keep up on the hills or the flats.

    <P>But seriously, David's note provides evidence that, under similar

    conditions the fixed gear uses less energy than the non-fixed bike. 

    Riding the rollers takes away any of the effects of hills or trying to keep

    up with geared riders.  It also, on the other side of the coin,

    eliminates the weight advantage that a fixie has over a road bike.

    <P>Now, sure, if you ride in the hills it might take more energy on a fixed

    gear bike than on a geared bike, but it's going to depend on what hills you

    ride and just how hard you push on your geared bike.  If you're riding

    a 63 inch gear up Thompson on your road bike, what's the difference?

    <P>If you cruise out to Sauvie, do a lap, and head back, which bike will

    cause you to use the most energy?  No hills to speak of on that ride,

    (depending on where you start from, of course.  Let's say 27th and

    Thurman.)  I think the answer is that it won't matter which bike you

    ride, it will just matter how hard you push yourself.

    <P>The advantage of training on a fixed gear bike is twofold.  You

    learn to have a supple and fluid spin on the downhills and the flats, and

    you're forced into a power workout on the hills.  But this does not

    mean that riding a fixed is equivalent to riding some greater multiple of

    miles on a geared bike.  How hard you push yourself is how hard you

    push yourself, whatever bike you ride.

    <P>Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you ride is stupid and pointless,

    but that's another rant. :-)

    <P>"Schreck, George" wrote:

    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"> <SPAN class=790363817-18062002>Gil, part of

      the reason why people say that is in addition to downhills, usually you

      are undergeared on flats and overgeared on hills, so if you work harder

      than you would on a geared bike.  I know last winter that I did some

      50 mile rides where I was more tired than some 100 mile rides on my geared

      bike due to the need to keep up with the geared bikes.  If he used

      the same gear on the rollers, that portion of the difficulty would be

      eliminated.</SPAN> <FONT face=Arial><FONT

      size=-1>                         </FONT></FONT><B><I>

      <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#800000>George C.

      Schreck</FONT></FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT face=Arial><FONT

      color=#800000>                          

      Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT></FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT

      face=Arial><FONT

      color=#800000>                          

      Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT></FONT></I></B> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE>

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solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else, unless

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copying, distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is

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micro-@aol.com

There is one other thing different about fixed gear riding that has not been

discussed. Most riders are working when slowing down as well as when

accelerating. When slowing the bike down using the legs instead of, or along

with a brake, the muscles are performing eccentric contractions. That is,

contraction of the muscle while it is lengthening. Similar to running

downhill or walking down stairs. There is evidence this type of muscle

contraction can result in greater muscle tension than concentric

contractions. It has also been related to higher levels of muscle soreness.



Mike Rosenberg

Dan H.

I once heard a Polish cycling coach describe the difference as being like

that of a car with an automatic transmission compared to a car with a

manual transmission. When you let off the gas in the automatic, the car

keeps going. You have to brake to slow down. With the manual

transmission, you slow down [control your speed] simply by easing off the

power.



At 01:41 PM 6/18/02 -0700, you wrote:

              On a fixed gear bike, you never stop working.                

             George C. Schreck

                            Phone: (503) 813-7211

                            Fax: (503) 813-7190       -----Original

Message-----

From: Gil Ormerod    [mailto:sd-@concentric.net]

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:25    AM

To: Schreck, George; obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The    history of rollers and roller racing



You'd    be undergeared on the flats, overgeared on the hills, and you

could just keep    pedaling on the downhills.         AND they'd have a

great mental    workout due to the concentration and grit required to not

shift to keep up on    the hills or the flats.       It also, on the other

side of the coin, eliminates    the weight advantage that a fixie has over

a road bike.      If you're riding a    63 inch gear up Thompson on your

road bike, what's the difference?        I think the answer is that it

won't matter which bike you    ride, it will just matter how hard you push

yourself.        How hard you push yourself is how hard you push yourself,

whatever bike you ride.    Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you

ride is stupid and pointless,    but that's another rant. :-)    "Schreck,

George" wrote:        If he used the same gear      on the rollers, that

portion of the difficulty would be      eliminated.                        

       George C. Schreck      

                                Phone: (503) 813-7211

                                Fax: (503) 813-7190



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com. To respond to the

list manager send to ob-@teleport.com To unsubscribe send to

obra-uns-@topica.com

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distribution or any action omitted or taken in reliance on it, is

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Andy Peake

As far as Oregon roller racing goes, a few more historical tidbits.

My first recollections are during the winter of 68'/69'.

They had a race series that alternated locations

between Phil's Schwinn Cyclery (Phil Hohnstein) and

Kisslers old location in SW Portland down.

Nothing better than being out of shape in Jan/Feb and trying

to do sprint like events with no warm up.



Guess my graying beard is that way for a reason.

Any older stories than this.

Mike Ackley where are you?



Andy Peake



Darell Provencher wrote:

 Actually roller racing was a fairly common venue in Oregon during the

off season in the late 70's and early 80's. I believe David Auker, Paul

Robinson, Darol Batke, Tim Rutledge, and others (I did it for a couple

of winters) were regular competitors. We even raced in a few shopping

malls! Rumor had it that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in

storage?



-- Darell



   ----- Original Message -----

   From: Keith Prior

   To: ob-@topica.com

   Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:26 PM

   Subject: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing





   Hey folks!

   For those of you who ride rollers.

   You had no idea that this sort of thing went on!! hehehehe (Or did

   you?!)

   This is FAR OUT!

   Enjoy!



   http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html







To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Schreck, George

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It is largely about gearing. In fact, I have always found it harder to spin

a freewheel bike at the same cadence for as long as I can in a fixed gear,

assuming they are in the same gear. The difference is that with a fixed

gear I cannot bail out on the hills and when I get tired, I cannot shift to

a larger gear.



There are additional factors though. On a freewheel bike, even on the

flats, there are periods where you coast a bit in a pace line, and on a

fixed gear, you never let up. Also, even when the cranks seem to be forcing

your legs around, you are doing work to stay on top of the gear, as it

becomes very painful to your knees if you truly let the cranks move your

legs. On a fixed gear bike, you never stop working.





                          George C. Schreck

                           Phone: (503) 813-7211

                           Fax: (503) 813-7190







-----Original Message-----

From: Gil Ormerod [mailto:sd-@concentric.net]

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:25 AM

To: Schreck, George; obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing





So a single speed would have the same training effect as a fixed gear bike,

right? You'd be undergeared on the flats, overgeared on the hills, and you

could just keep pedaling on the downhills.



The point is that there is nothing inherent in the fixed gear bike that

makes it any harder to ride 50 miles than it would be on a geared bike. If

you want, you can always stick it in the same gear and just not shift. In

fact, if people trained in this fashion, riding their geared bike in a 63

inch gear, not shifting, and not coasting, they would have an even *better*

workout. They'd be lugging all that extra weight of a chainring, 8 or 9

cogs, derailleurs etc. AND they'd have a great mental workout due to the

concentration and grit required to not shift to keep up on the hills or the

flats.





But seriously, David's note provides evidence that, under similar conditions

the fixed gear uses less energy than the non-fixed bike. Riding the rollers

takes away any of the effects of hills or trying to keep up with geared

riders. It also, on the other side of the coin, eliminates the weight

advantage that a fixie has over a road bike.





Now, sure, if you ride in the hills it might take more energy on a fixed

gear bike than on a geared bike, but it's going to depend on what hills you

ride and just how hard you push on your geared bike. If you're riding a 63

inch gear up Thompson on your road bike, what's the difference?





If you cruise out to Sauvie, do a lap, and head back, which bike will cause

you to use the most energy? No hills to speak of on that ride, (depending

on where you start from, of course. Let's say 27th and Thurman.) I think

the answer is that it won't matter which bike you ride, it will just matter

how hard you push yourself.





The advantage of training on a fixed gear bike is twofold. You learn to

have a supple and fluid spin on the downhills and the flats, and you're

forced into a power workout on the hills. But this does not mean that

riding a fixed is equivalent to riding some greater multiple of miles on a

geared bike. How hard you push yourself is how hard you push yourself,

whatever bike you ride.





Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you ride is stupid and pointless,

but that's another rant. :-)





"Schreck, George" wrote:





Gil, part of the reason why people say that is in addition to downhills,

usually you are undergeared on flats and overgeared on hills, so if you work

harder than you would on a geared bike. I know last winter that I did some

50 mile rides where I was more tired than some 100 mile rides on my geared

bike due to the need to keep up with the geared bikes. If he used the same

gear on the rollers, that portion of the difficulty would be eliminated.

George C. Schreck

                           Phone: (503) 813-7211

                           Fax: (503) 813-7190





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<BODY>

<DIV><SPAN class=320363420-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>It is

largely about gearing. In fact, I have always found it harder to spin a

freewheel bike at the same cadence for as long as I can in a fixed gear,

assuming they are in the same gear.  The difference is that with a fixed

gear I cannot bail out on the hills and when I get tired, I cannot shift to a

larger gear. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=320363420-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=320363420-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>There

are additional factors though.  On a freewheel bike, even on the

flats, there are periods where you coast a bit in a pace line, and on a fixed

gear, you never let up.  Also, even when the cranks seem to be forcing your

legs around, you are doing work to stay on top of the gear, as it becomes very

painful to your knees if you truly let the cranks move your legs.  On a

fixed gear bike, you never stop working.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<P><FONT face=Arial

size=2>                         <B><I></I></B></FONT><B><I>

<FONT face=Arial color=#800000>George C. Schreck</FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT

face=Arial

color=#800000>                          

Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT face=Arial

color=#800000>                          

Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT></I></B> </P>

<DIV> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Gil Ormerod

[mailto:sd-@concentric.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 18, 2002 11:25

AM<BR><B>To:</B> Schreck, George; obra<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] The

history of rollers and roller racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>So a single speed

would have the same training effect as a fixed gear bike, right?  You'd

be undergeared on the flats, overgeared on the hills, and you could just keep

pedaling on the downhills.

<P>The point is that there is nothing inherent in the fixed gear bike that

makes it any harder to ride 50 miles than it would be on a geared bike. 

If you want, you can always stick it in the same gear and just not

shift.  In fact, if people trained in this fashion, riding their geared

bike in a 63 inch gear, not shifting, and not coasting, they would have an

even *better* workout.  They'd be lugging all that extra weight of a

chainring, 8 or 9 cogs, derailleurs etc.  AND they'd have a great mental

workout due to the concentration and grit required to not shift to keep up on

the hills or the flats.

<P>But seriously, David's note provides evidence that, under similar

conditions the fixed gear uses less energy than the non-fixed bike. 

Riding the rollers takes away any of the effects of hills or trying to keep up

with geared riders.  It also, on the other side of the coin, eliminates

the weight advantage that a fixie has over a road bike.

<P>Now, sure, if you ride in the hills it might take more energy on a fixed

gear bike than on a geared bike, but it's going to depend on what hills you

ride and just how hard you push on your geared bike.  If you're riding a

63 inch gear up Thompson on your road bike, what's the difference?

<P>If you cruise out to Sauvie, do a lap, and head back, which bike will cause

you to use the most energy?  No hills to speak of on that ride,

(depending on where you start from, of course.  Let's say 27th and

Thurman.)  I think the answer is that it won't matter which bike you

ride, it will just matter how hard you push yourself.

<P>The advantage of training on a fixed gear bike is twofold.  You learn

to have a supple and fluid spin on the downhills and the flats, and you're

forced into a power workout on the hills.  But this does not mean that

riding a fixed is equivalent to riding some greater multiple of miles on a

geared bike.  How hard you push yourself is how hard you push yourself,

whatever bike you ride.

<P>Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you ride is stupid and pointless,

but that's another rant. :-)

<P>"Schreck, George" wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"> <SPAN class=790363817-18062002>Gil, part of

    the reason why people say that is in addition to downhills, usually you are

    undergeared on flats and overgeared on hills, so if you work harder than you

    would on a geared bike.  I know last winter that I did some 50 mile

    rides where I was more tired than some 100 mile rides on my geared bike due

    to the need to keep up with the geared bikes.  If he used the same gear

    on the rollers, that portion of the difficulty would be

    eliminated.</SPAN> <FONT face=Arial><FONT

    size=-1>                         </FONT></FONT><B><I>

    <FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#800000>George C. Schreck</FONT></FONT></I></B>

    <BR><B><I><FONT face=Arial><FONT

    color=#800000>                          

    Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT></FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT face=Arial><FONT

    color=#800000>                          

    Fax: (503)

813-7190</FONT></FONT></I></B> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>





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<br>

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Gil Ormerod

--------------4499B05684917D95216B05DE

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So a single speed would have the same training effect as a fixed gear

bike, right? You'd be undergeared on the flats, overgeared on the

hills, and you could just keep pedaling on the downhills.



The point is that there is nothing inherent in the fixed gear bike that

makes it any harder to ride 50 miles than it would be on a geared bike.

If you want, you can always stick it in the same gear and just not

shift. In fact, if people trained in this fashion, riding their geared

bike in a 63 inch gear, not shifting, and not coasting, they would have

an even *better* workout. They'd be lugging all that extra weight of a

chainring, 8 or 9 cogs, derailleurs etc. AND they'd have a great mental

workout due to the concentration and grit required to not shift to keep

up on the hills or the flats.



But seriously, David's note provides evidence that, under similar

conditions the fixed gear uses less energy than the non-fixed bike.

Riding the rollers takes away any of the effects of hills or trying to

keep up with geared riders. It also, on the other side of the coin,

eliminates the weight advantage that a fixie has over a road bike.



Now, sure, if you ride in the hills it might take more energy on a fixed

gear bike than on a geared bike, but it's going to depend on what hills

you ride and just how hard you push on your geared bike. If you're

riding a 63 inch gear up Thompson on your road bike, what's the

difference?



If you cruise out to Sauvie, do a lap, and head back, which bike will

cause you to use the most energy? No hills to speak of on that ride,

(depending on where you start from, of course. Let's say 27th and

Thurman.) I think the answer is that it won't matter which bike you

ride, it will just matter how hard you push yourself.



The advantage of training on a fixed gear bike is twofold. You learn to

have a supple and fluid spin on the downhills and the flats, and you're

forced into a power workout on the hills. But this does not mean that

riding a fixed is equivalent to riding some greater multiple of miles on

a geared bike. How hard you push yourself is how hard you push

yourself, whatever bike you ride.



Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you ride is stupid and

pointless, but that's another rant. :-)



"Schreck, George" wrote:



 Gil, part of the reason why people say that is in addition to

downhills, usually you are undergeared on flats and overgeared on

hills, so if you work harder than you would on a geared bike. I know

last winter that I did some 50 mile rides where I was more tired than

some 100 mile rides on my geared bike due to the need to keep up with

the geared bikes. If he used the same gear on the rollers, that

portion of the difficulty would be

eliminated.                           George C. Schreck

                            Phone: (503) 813-7211

                            Fax: (503) 813-7190

--------------4499B05684917D95216B05DE

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">

<html>

So a single speed would have the same training effect as a fixed gear bike,

right?  You'd be undergeared on the flats, overgeared on the hills,

and you could just keep pedaling on the downhills.

<p>The point is that there is nothing inherent in the fixed gear bike that

makes it any harder to ride 50 miles than it would be on a geared bike. 

If you want, you can always stick it in the same gear and just not shift. 

In fact, if people trained in this fashion, riding their geared bike in

a 63 inch gear, not shifting, and not coasting, they would have an even

*better* workout.  They'd be lugging all that extra weight of a chainring,

8 or 9 cogs, derailleurs etc.  AND they'd have a great mental workout

due to the concentration and grit required to not shift to keep up on the

hills or the flats.

<p>But seriously, David's note provides evidence that, under similar conditions

the fixed gear uses less energy than the non-fixed bike.  Riding the

rollers takes away any of the effects of hills or trying to keep up with

geared riders.  It also, on the other side of the coin, eliminates

the weight advantage that a fixie has over a road bike.

<p>Now, sure, if you ride in the hills it might take more energy on a fixed

gear bike than on a geared bike, but it's going to depend on what hills

you ride and just how hard you push on your geared bike.  If you're

riding a 63 inch gear up Thompson on your road bike, what's the difference?

<p>If you cruise out to Sauvie, do a lap, and head back, which bike will

cause you to use the most energy?  No hills to speak of on that ride,

(depending on where you start from, of course.  Let's say 27th and

Thurman.)  I think the answer is that it won't matter which bike you

ride, it will just matter how hard you push yourself.

<p>The advantage of training on a fixed gear bike is twofold.  You

learn to have a supple and fluid spin on the downhills and the flats, and

you're forced into a power workout on the hills.  But this does not

mean that riding a fixed is equivalent to riding some greater multiple

of miles on a geared bike.  How hard you push yourself is how hard

you push yourself, whatever bike you ride.

<p>Anyway, keeping track of how many miles you ride is stupid and pointless,

but that's another rant. :-)

<p>"Schreck, George" wrote:

<blockquote TYPE=CITE> <span class=790363817-18062002>Gil, part of

the reason why people say that is in addition to downhills, usually you

are undergeared on flats and overgeared on hills, so if you work harder

than you would on a geared bike.  I know last winter that I did some

50 mile rides where I was more tired than some 100 mile rides on my geared

bike due to the need to keep up with the geared bikes.  If he used

the same gear on the rollers, that portion of the difficulty would be eliminated.</span> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>                         </font></font><b><i>

<font face="Arial"><font color="#800000">George C. Schreck</font></font></i></b>

<br><b><i><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000">                          

Phone: (503) 813-7211</font></font></i></b>

<br><b><i><font face="Arial"><font color="#800000">                          

Fax: (503) 813-7190</font></font></i></b> </blockquote>







</html>



--------------4499B05684917D95216B05DE--

Schreck, George

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Gil, part of the reason why people say that is in addition to downhills,

usually you are undergeared on flats and overgeared on hills, so if you work

harder than you would on a geared bike. I know last winter that I did some

50 mile rides where I was more tired than some 100 mile rides on my geared

bike due to the need to keep up with the geared bikes. If he used the same

gear on the rollers, that portion of the difficulty would be eliminated.





                          George C. Schreck

                           Phone: (503) 813-7211

                           Fax: (503) 813-7190







-----Original Message-----

From: Gil Ormerod [mailto:sd-@concentric.net]

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 9:48 AM

To: Dav-@Hevanet.Com; obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing









David Auker wrote:





---An observational side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to have a

roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of track size, somewhere in the

mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...). Tried the workout on a gearS bike

(using the same sized gear), and really could not get through the hardest

part of the specified rpm/time duration.



Exactly! The fixed gear *pushes* your legs around as you ride. You don't

have that advantage on a non-fixed bike.



This is the exact reason why it is complete nonsense for people to say that

riding 50 miles on a fixed gear bike is equivalent to riding 75 miles (or

whatever multiple they might use) on a geared bike. You might spend some

time coasting on your geared bike, but on your fixed you are spending time

with your legs being simply pushed in circles by the momentum.





Thanks for the excellent empirical evidence, David!





Gil "50 miles is 50 miles" Ormerod



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<DIV><SPAN class=790363817-18062002>Gil, part of the reason why people say that

is in addition to downhills, usually you are undergeared on flats and overgeared

on hills, so if you work harder than you would on a geared bike.  I

know last winter that I did some 50 mile rides where I was more tired than some

100 mile rides on my geared bike due to the need to keep up with the geared

bikes.  If he used the same gear on the rollers, that portion of the

difficulty would be eliminated.</SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<P><FONT face=Arial

size=2>                         <B><I></I></B></FONT><B><I>

<FONT face=Arial color=#800000>George C. Schreck</FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT

face=Arial

color=#800000>                          

Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT face=Arial

color=#800000>                          

Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT></I></B> </P>

<DIV> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Gil Ormerod

[mailto:sd-@concentric.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 18, 2002 9:48

AM<BR><B>To:</B> Dav-@Hevanet.Com; obra<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat]

The history of rollers and roller racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> 

<P>David Auker wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>---An observational

    side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to have a roller workout on

    fixed gear (the gear was of track size, somewhere in the mid-80's, for

    whatever that's worth...).  Tried the workout on a gearS bike (using

    the same sized gear), and really could not get through the hardest part of

    the specified rpm/time

duration.</FONT></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly!  The fixed gear

*pushes* your legs around as you ride.  You don't have that advantage on

a non-fixed bike.

<P>This is the exact reason why it is complete nonsense for people to say that

riding 50 miles on a fixed gear bike is equivalent to riding 75 miles (or

whatever multiple they might use) on a geared bike.  You might spend some

time coasting on your geared bike, but on your fixed you are spending time

with your legs being simply pushed in circles by the momentum.

<P>Thanks for the excellent empirical evidence, David!

<P>Gil "50 miles is 50 miles" Ormerod <PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>





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Jerry Powell

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">

<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--

blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }

--></style><title>RE: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller

raci</title></head><body>

<div>The roller set that once belonged (I'm not sure where they are

now) to Collins were originally brought over from Belgiym by Franz

Pauels.  I think Franz promoted a roller race series in the

fifties... There are still some guys from that era around... Clark

Henry was, I think, the roller race king around here.</div>

<div><br></div>

<div>The rollers disappeared after the Ciclo roller races in 1985 or

1986 and, while I was told that they'd been returned to Collins, I

don't know that for a fact.</div>

<div><br></div>

<div>As a sidebar... There was once a North American Roller Race

"championship" series in New York... Bob Strzlecki and Joe

Hailey both "rode" in them, and I believe Hailey was for a

time a record holder in the event.</div>

<div><br></div>

<div>Jerry</div>

<div><br></div>

<div><br></div>

<div><br></div>

<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1"

color="#0000FF">This is good.  As a matter of fact, one of our

senior racers, Del Sharffenberg used to ride competition rollers

at exhibitions like the County Fair.  He should tell the story

but from what I understand, an accident occured

where a participant went through a plate glass window and

ended the event, at least at that

venue.     </font><br>

<blockquote><font size="-1">-----Original Message-----<br>

<b>From:</b> Keith Prior [mailto:kpr-@icare.snalf.com]<br>

<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 17, 2002 4:26 PM<br>

<b>To:</b> ob-@topica.com<br>

<b>Subject:</b> [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller

racing</font><br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#0000FF">Hey

folks!</font></blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#0000FF">For those of

you who ride rollers.</font></blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#0000FF">You had no

idea that this sort of thing went on!!  hehehehe (Or did

you?!)</font></blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial" size="-1" color="#0000FF">This is FAR

OUT!</font></blockquote>

<blockquote><font face="Arial" size="-1"

color="#0000FF">Enjoy!</font></blockquote>

<blockquote> </blockquote>

<blockquote><a

href="http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html"><font face="Arial"

size="-1"

color="#0000FF">http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html</font></a

 </blockquote>

<blockquote> </blockquote>

<blockquote> </blockquote>

</blockquote>

<div> </div>

<x-sigsep><pre>--

</pre></x-sigsep>

<div><br></div>







</body>

</html>

Jerry Powell

--============_-1187701080==_ma============

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"



WOW, You might have something there... Think about all those

sprinters out there who've been getting a free ride all this time!

Hey... Maybe we could offer fixed gear as an option for the fours at

Delta Park so that they'd have a leg up on catching the 123 pro

event... It'd be an inverse handicap! A little *push* should be a

good thing... Right?



I wonder... if Gil's logic holds, then the bigger the gear, the

bigger the *push*, ok so far? Then... the bigger the gear the easier

it is! I think we have a whole new physics here... David, you sly

old fox... you've been fooling us all this time. Son of a gun.



Jerry      ;-)





At 9:47 AM -0700 6/18/02, Gil Ormerod wrote:

 

David Auker wrote:



 ---An observational side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to

have a roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of track size,

somewhere in the mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...). Tried

the workout on a gearS bike (using the same sized gear), and really

could not get through the hardest part of the specified rpm/time

duration.

Exactly! The fixed gear *pushes* your legs around as you ride. You

don't have that advantage on a non-fixed bike.



This is the exact reason why it is complete nonsense for people to

say that riding 50 miles on a fixed gear bike is equivalent to

riding 75 miles (or whatever multiple they might use) on a geared

bike. You might spend some time coasting on your geared bike, but

on your fixed you are spending time with your legs being simply

pushed in circles by the momentum.



Thanks for the excellent empirical evidence, David!



Gil "50 miles is 50 miles" Ormerod

--







--============_-1187701080==_ma============

Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"



<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">

<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--

blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }

--></style><title>Re: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller

raci</title></head><body>

<div>WOW, You might have something there... Think about all those

sprinters out there who've been getting a free ride all this time! 

Hey... Maybe we could offer fixed gear as an option for the fours at

Delta Park so that they'd have a leg up on catching the 123 pro

event... It'd be an inverse handicap!  A little *push* should be

a good thing... Right?</div>

<div><br></div>

<div>I wonder... if Gil's logic holds, then the bigger the gear, the

bigger the *push*, ok so far?  Then... the bigger the gear the

easier it is!  I think we have a whole new physics here... David,

you sly old fox... you've been fooling us all this time.  Son of

a gun.</div>

<div><br></div>

<div>Jerry      ;-)</div>

<div><br></div>

<div><br></div>

<div>At 9:47 AM -0700 6/18/02, Gil Ormerod wrote:</div>

<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite>David Auker wrote:<br>

<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">---An

observational side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to have a

roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of track size, somewhere in

the mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...).  Tried the workout

on a gearS bike (using the same sized gear), and really could not get

through the hardest part of the specified rpm/time

duration.</font><br>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite>Exactly!  The fixed gear *pushes*

your legs around as you ride.  You don't have that advantage on a

non-fixed bike.<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite>This is the exact reason why it is

complete nonsense for people to say that riding 50 miles on a fixed

gear bike is equivalent to riding 75 miles (or whatever multiple they

might use) on a geared bike.  You might spend some time coasting

on your geared bike, but on your fixed you are spending time with your

legs being simply pushed in circles by the momentum.<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite>Thanks for the excellent empirical

evidence, David!<br>

</blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite>Gil "50 miles is 50 miles"

Ormerod</blockquote>

<div><br></div>

<x-sigsep><pre>--

</pre></x-sigsep>

<div><br></div>







</body>

</html>

--============_-1187701080==_ma============--

Gil Ormerod

--------------91D5092D204F0D911A17D49A

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David Auker wrote:



 ---An observational side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to

have a roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of track size,

somewhere in the mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...). Tried the

workout on a gearS bike (using the same sized gear), and really could

not get through the hardest part of the specified rpm/time duration.

Exactly! The fixed gear *pushes* your legs around as you ride. You

don't have that advantage on a non-fixed bike.



This is the exact reason why it is complete nonsense for people to say

that riding 50 miles on a fixed gear bike is equivalent to riding 75

miles (or whatever multiple they might use) on a geared bike. You might

spend some time coasting on your geared bike, but on your fixed you are

spending time with your legs being simply pushed in circles by the

momentum.



Thanks for the excellent empirical evidence, David!



Gil "50 miles is 50 miles" Ormerod







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<p>David Auker wrote:

<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>---An observational

side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to have a roller workout on

fixed gear (the gear was of track size, somewhere in the mid-80's, for

whatever that's worth...).  Tried the workout on a gearS bike (using

the same sized gear), and really could not get through the hardest part

of the specified rpm/time duration.</font></font> </blockquote>

Exactly!  The fixed gear *pushes* your legs around as you ride. 

You don't have that advantage on a non-fixed bike.

<p>This is the exact reason why it is complete nonsense for people to say

that riding 50 miles on a fixed gear bike is equivalent to riding 75 miles

(or whatever multiple they might use) on a geared bike.  You might

spend some time coasting on your geared bike, but on your fixed you are

spending time with your legs being simply pushed in circles by the momentum.

<p>Thanks for the excellent empirical evidence, David!

<p>Gil "50 miles is 50 miles" Ormerod





</html>



--------------91D5092D204F0D911A17D49A--

Augusto C.D. Carneiro

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>

<P>Talking About Rollers/Trainers, does anybody have a used set they are thinking of selling, or know anyone wanting to sell theirs?</P>

<P>Augusto Carneiro<BR><BR></P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>From: Keith Prior <KPR-@ICARE.SNALF.COM>

<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: kpr-@icare.snalf.com

<DIV></DIV>>To: "'Dav-@Hevanet.Com'" <DAV-@HEVANET.COM>, salco-@hotmail.com, dare-@easystreet.com, Keith Prior <KPR-@ICARE.SNALF.COM>, ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing

<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:09:50 -0700

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>Wow!

<DIV></DIV>>Glad I could provide an interesting topic of conversation!

<DIV></DIV>>I sure learned something! :)

<DIV></DIV>>Lets bring back roller racing!

<DIV></DIV>>Hopefully the Hutch's guy will find them in that basement! hahahaha

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>-Keith

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>-----Original Message-----

<DIV></DIV>>From: David Auker [mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]

<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 10:43 PM

<DIV></DIV>>To: salco-@hotmail.com; dare-@easystreet.com; kpr-@icare.snalf.com;

<DIV></DIV>>ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> >Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?<

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>I raced on that set in Eugene in '77! Lived in Corvallis and would ride to

<DIV></DIV>>Eugene in the afternoon, and do the evening races. I think my primary

<DIV></DIV>>competition was Russell Morton, Robert Wilkins and Terry Green. I ended up

<DIV></DIV>>winning the series, and took home a set of Weyless rollers...still use them

<DIV></DIV>>today. I just looked at the plaque, "ECC Roller Races, 1977." (Weyless:

<DIV></DIV>>weigh more.)

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>We also had roller races at Cycle Craft, SW 12th & Morrison, Portland, as

<DIV></DIV>>well as a demo race at the halftime of an U of O basketball game.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>Weird format: the riders faced away from the clockface/speedometer that

<DIV></DIV>>shows riders' progress. Not sure if that is traditional, but it made for a

<DIV></DIV>>very noisy, exciting venue, as the onlookers that COULD see the clockface

<DIV></DIV>>yelled encouragement over the roar of the rollers themselves.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>---An observational side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to have a

<DIV></DIV>>roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of track size, somewhere in the

<DIV></DIV>>mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...). Tried the workout on a gearS bike

<DIV></DIV>>(using the same sized gear), and really could not get through the hardest

<DIV></DIV>>part of the specified rpm/time duration.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>David

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>----- Original Message -----

<DIV></DIV>>From: "Salvatore Collura" < <mailto:salco-@hotmail.com>

<DIV></DIV>>salco-@hotmail.com>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> > >Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?<

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > I'll check the basement tomorrow.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > -sal

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV></mailto:salco-@hotmail.com></div><br clear=all><hr>O MSN Photos ? o modo mais f?cil de compartilhar e imprimir suas fotos: <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM500201/29'>Clique aqui</a><br>





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Keith Prior

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Wow!

Glad I could provide an interesting topic of conversation!

I sure learned something! :)

Lets bring back roller racing!

Hopefully the Hutch's guy will find them in that basement! hahahaha



-Keith



-----Original Message-----

From: David Auker [mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]

Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 10:43 PM

To: salco-@hotmail.com; dare-@easystreet.com; kpr-@icare.snalf.com;

ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing





 Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?<

I raced on that set in Eugene in '77! Lived in Corvallis and would ride to

Eugene in the afternoon, and do the evening races. I think my primary

competition was Russell Morton, Robert Wilkins and Terry Green. I ended up

winning the series, and took home a set of Weyless rollers...still use them

today. I just looked at the plaque, "ECC Roller Races, 1977." (Weyless:

weigh more.)



We also had roller races at Cycle Craft, SW 12th & Morrison, Portland, as

well as a demo race at the halftime of an U of O basketball game.



Weird format: the riders faced away from the clockface/speedometer that

shows riders' progress. Not sure if that is traditional, but it made for a

very noisy, exciting venue, as the onlookers that COULD see the clockface

yelled encouragement over the roar of the rollers themselves.



---An observational side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to have a

roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of track size, somewhere in the

mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...). Tried the workout on a gearS bike

(using the same sized gear), and really could not get through the hardest

part of the specified rpm/time duration.



David



----- Original Message -----

From: "Salvatore Collura" < <mailto:salco-@hotmail.com>

salco-@hotmail.com>



  Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?<

I'll check the basement tomorrow.



-sal

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.



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<DIV><SPAN class=328100402-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>Wow!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=328100402-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Glad I

could provide an interesting topic of conversation! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=328100402-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I

sure learned something! :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=328100402-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Lets

bring back roller racing! </FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=328100402-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>Hopefully the Hutch's guy will find them in that basement!

hahahaha</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=328100402-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=328100402-19062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>-Keith</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Auker

[mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 17, 2002 10:43

PM<BR><B>To:</B> salco-@hotmail.com; dare-@easystreet.com;

kpr-@icare.snalf.com; ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] The

history of rollers and roller racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><EM><FONT face=Arial size=2>>Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the

competition pair in storage?<<BR></FONT></EM></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I raced on that set in Eugene in '77!  Lived

in Corvallis and would ride to Eugene in the afternoon, and do the evening

races.  I think my primary competition was Russell Morton, Robert Wilkins

and Terry Green.  I ended up winning the series, and took home a set of

Weyless rollers...still use them today.  I just looked at the plaque,

"ECC Roller Races, 1977."  (Weyless: weigh more.)</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We also had roller races at Cycle Craft, SW 12th

& Morrison, Portland, as well as a demo race at the halftime of an U

of O basketball game. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Weird format: the riders <U>faced away</U> from

the clockface/speedometer that shows riders' progress.  Not sure if that

is traditional, but it made for a very noisy, exciting venue, as the onlookers

that COULD see the clockface yelled encouragement over the roar of the rollers

themselves.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>---An observational side note on a fixed gear

efficiency: I used to have a roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of

track size, somewhere in the mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...). 

Tried the workout on a gearS bike (using the same sized gear), and really

could not get through the hardest part of the specified rpm/time

duration.  </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Salvatore Collura" <</FONT><A

href="mailto:salco-@hotmail.com"><FONT face=Arial

size=2>salco-@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial

size=2>></FONT></DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>> >Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the

competition pair in storage?<<BR>> <BR>> I'll check the basement

tomorrow.<BR>> <BR>> -sal<BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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David Auker

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 Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?<

I raced on that set in Eugene in '77! Lived in Corvallis and would ride to Eugene in the afternoon, and do the evening races. I think my primary competition was Russell Morton, Robert Wilkins and Terry Green. I ended up winning the series, and took home a set of Weyless rollers...still use them today. I just looked at the plaque, "ECC Roller Races, 1977." (Weyless: weigh more.)



We also had roller races at Cycle Craft, SW 12th & Morrison, Portland, as well as a demo race at the halftime of an U of O basketball game.



Weird format: the riders faced away from the clockface/speedometer that shows riders' progress. Not sure if that is traditional, but it made for a very noisy, exciting venue, as the onlookers that COULD see the clockface yelled encouragement over the roar of the rollers themselves.



---An observational side note on a fixed gear efficiency: I used to have a roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of track size, somewhere in the mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...). Tried the workout on a gearS bike (using the same sized gear), and really could not get through the hardest part of the specified rpm/time duration.



David



----- Original Message -----

From: "Salvatore Collura" <salco-@hotmail.com>



  Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?<

I'll check the basement tomorrow.



-sal

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<DIV><EM><FONT face=Arial size=2>>Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the

competition pair in storage?<<BR></FONT></EM></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I raced on that set in Eugene in '77!  Lived

in Corvallis and would ride to Eugene in the afternoon, and do the evening

races.  I think my primary competition was Russell Morton, Robert Wilkins

and Terry Green.  I ended up winning the series, and took home a set of

Weyless rollers...still use them today.  I just looked at the plaque, "ECC

Roller Races, 1977."  (Weyless: weigh more.)</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We also had roller races at Cycle Craft, SW 12th

& Morrison, Portland, as well as a demo race at the halftime of an U of

O basketball game. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Weird format: the riders <U>faced away</U> from the

clockface/speedometer that shows riders' progress.  Not sure if that is

traditional, but it made for a very noisy, exciting venue, as the onlookers that

COULD see the clockface yelled encouragement over the roar of the rollers

themselves.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>---An observational side note on a fixed gear

efficiency: I used to have a roller workout on fixed gear (the gear was of track

size, somewhere in the mid-80's, for whatever that's worth...).  Tried the

workout on a gearS bike (using the same sized gear), and really could not get

through the hardest part of the specified rpm/time duration. 

</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Salvatore Collura" <</FONT><A

href="mailto:salco-@hotmail.com"><FONT face=Arial

size=2>salco-@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial

size=2>></FONT></DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>> >Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the

competition pair in storage?<<BR>> <BR>> I'll check the basement

tomorrow.<BR>> <BR>> -sal<BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>





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Salvatore Collura

 Rumor is that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?<

I'll check the basement tomorrow.



-sal









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Hopkins, Larry

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This is good. As a matter of fact, one of our senior racers, Del Sharffenberg used to ride competition rollers at exhibitions like the County Fair. He should tell the story but from what I understand, an accident occured where a participant went through a plate glass window and ended the event, at least at that venue.      



-----Original Message-----

From: Keith Prior [mailto:kpr-@icare.snalf.com]

Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:26 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing





Hey folks!

For those of you who ride rollers.

You had no idea that this sort of thing went on!! hehehehe (Or did you?!)

This is FAR OUT!

Enjoy!



http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html







To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.



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<DIV><SPAN class=427162802-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This

is good.  As a matter of fact, one of our senior racers, Del Sharffenberg

used to ride competition rollers at exhibitions like the County Fair. 

He should tell the story but from what I understand, an accident occured

where a participant went through a plate glass window and ended

the event, at least at that venue.     

</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Keith Prior

[mailto:kpr-@icare.snalf.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 17, 2002 4:26

PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] The history of

rollers and roller racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hey

folks!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>For

those of you who ride rollers.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You

had no idea that this sort of thing went on!!  hehehehe (Or did

you?!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This

is FAR OUT!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>Enjoy!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><A

href="http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html">http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Darell Provencher

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Actually roller racing was a fairly common venue in Oregon during the off season in the late 70's and early 80's. I believe David Auker, Paul Robinson, Darol Batke, Tim Rutledge, and others (I did it for a couple of winters) were regular competitors. We even raced in a few shopping malls! Rumor had it that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?



-- Darell



----- Original Message -----

From: Keith Prior

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:26 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] The history of rollers and roller racing





Hey folks!

For those of you who ride rollers.

You had no idea that this sort of thing went on!! hehehehe (Or did you?!)

This is FAR OUT!

Enjoy!



http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html







To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com







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<DIV><FONT size=2>Actually roller racing was a fairly common venue in Oregon

during the off season in the late 70's and early 80's. I believe David Auker,

Paul Robinson, Darol Batke, Tim Rutledge, and others (I did it for a couple of

winters) were regular competitors. We even raced in a few shopping malls! Rumor

had it that Hutch's may still have the competition pair in storage?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT size=2>-- Darell</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=-@icare.snalf.com href="mailto:kpr-@icare.snalf.com">Keith

Prior</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 17, 2002 4:26 PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] The history of

rollers and roller racing</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hey

folks!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>For

those of you who ride rollers.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You

had no idea that this sort of thing went on!!  hehehehe (Or did

you?!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This

is FAR OUT!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>Enjoy!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><A

href="http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html">http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to <A href="mailto:ob-@topica.com.To">ob-@topica.com.

To</A> respond to the list manager send to <A href="mailto:ob-@teleport.comTo">ob-@teleport.com

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Keith Prior

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Hey folks!

For those of you who ride rollers.

You had no idea that this sort of thing went on!! hehehehe (Or did you?!)

This is FAR OUT!

Enjoy!



http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html

<http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html>













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<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hey

folks!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>For

those of you who ride rollers.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You

had no idea that this sort of thing went on!!  hehehehe (Or did

you?!)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This

is FAR OUT!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>Enjoy!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><A

href="http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html">http://www.bikecult.com/works/rollers.html</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=930011411-18062002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>





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