Ron and Dorothy Strasser

If my dad had not died in 1975 he could beat up both of your dads even if
they were honor students! And he probably was wrong at least 30% of the
time and right only 50%..... 20% limbo. :-)
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "KO Kevin"
To: ; "OBRA remailer"
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

> My Dad was never wrong....
>
> Kevin Ko
> Community Development Specialist
> (541) 726-2302
> (541) 741-2763 fax
>
> Development Services
> City of Springfield
> 225 Fifth Street, 97477
> http://www.ci.springfield.or.us
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Murray
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 3:35 PM
> To: OBRA remailer
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes
>
> Your dad was wrong. It has never been that way.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: KO Kevin
> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:33:02
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes
>
> "It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare."
>
> And that is where things have changed. When I was growing up, my Dad
> taught us that price was based on the cost of producing the product and
> bringing the product to market. There was some relationship between
> quality (high grade materials and hand-craftsmanship) and price. This
> whole notion of artificially limiting supply (the ubiquitous "Limited
> Edition") to allow demand to drive up the price used to be limited to
> diamonds and a few other markets. That it is now so wide spread as to be
> the default Econ 101 is a fairly recent trend.
>
> Kevin Ko
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Aaron Coker
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:16 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes
>
> Last time I checked there wasn't someone standing at my door forcing my to
> buy that Madone 6.9, those Sidi shoes and the Assos kit. These suppliers
> are not in the business of putting people on bikes for free, and we
> shouldn't expect that (entitlement...gotta love it). They all have a
> range of products for every budget, and we, as consumers, have a choice as
> to where we want to spend our discretionary income. To call the practice
> of running a business at a profit egregious may be going a little
> overboard. It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare.
> Riding and racing a bike is not a right last time I checked. Just sayin'.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

joe cipale

Rick,

I corrected your post for you. You can thank me later. ;)

Joe

Rick Johnson wrote:
> And AMD is their formidable(sic) competition...
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon

Ben Fischler

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Michael Mann wrote:

> Don't even get me started on why a carbon frame stamped out of a mold in
> China cost the same as a hand-brazed steel frame that took someone a week or
> more to build.
>

Ha, if only it were that easy. Carbon frames are not made by machines.
Most carbon frames require a ridiculous amount of hand work. Yes, they do
cook them and pop them out of molds, but the layup process and the post
cooking finishing is labor intensive.

That's the production process. The R&D and tooling adds a ton more.

Bicycling had a layman's feature on it a little bit ago:
http://www.bicycling.com/mb/slide/home/1,8155,s1-2-261-0,00.html

As someone who's been a professional framebuilder (brazed & TIG) I've still
got* plenty* of respect for what goes into a carbon frame.

--
-Ben

VFX Supe
Laika

[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]

Rick Johnson

And AMD is their formidable competition...

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Rick
Johnson <RickCJohnson1@gmail.com>
wrote:

One
of my Dads favorite business axioms is "exorbitant pricing breeds
ruinous competition".

And Intel made 10.3B last quarter selling sand.  Very special sand with
a little bit of metal and

lots of equipment and R&D.

 

Stephen Hemminger

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

> One of my Dads favorite business axioms is "exorbitant pricing breeds
> ruinous competition".
>
>
And Intel made 10.3B last quarter selling sand. Very special sand with a
little bit of metal and
lots of equipment and R&D.

Rick Johnson

One of my Dads favorite business axioms is "exorbitant pricing breeds
ruinous competition".

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

KO Kevin wrote:
> My Dad was never wrong....
>
> Kevin Ko
> Community Development Specialist
> (541) 726-2302
> (541) 741-2763 fax
>
> Development Services
> City of Springfield
> 225 Fifth Street, 97477
> http://www.ci.springfield.or.us
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 3:35 PM
> To: OBRA remailer
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes
>
> Your dad was wrong. It has never been that way.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: KO Kevin
> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:33:02
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes
>
> "It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare."
>
> And that is where things have changed. When I was growing up, my Dad taught us that price was based on the cost of producing the product and bringing the product to market. There was some relationship between quality (high grade materials and hand-craftsmanship) and price. This whole notion of artificially limiting supply (the ubiquitous "Limited Edition") to allow demand to drive up the price used to be limited to diamonds and a few other markets. That it is now so wide spread as to be the default Econ 101 is a fairly recent trend.
>
> Kevin Ko
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Coker
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:16 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes
>
> Last time I checked there wasn't someone standing at my door forcing my to buy that Madone 6.9, those Sidi shoes and the Assos kit. These suppliers are not in the business of putting people on bikes for free, and we shouldn't expect that (entitlement...gotta love it). They all have a range of products for every budget, and we, as consumers, have a choice as to where we want to spend our discretionary income. To call the practice of running a business at a profit egregious may be going a little overboard. It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare. Riding and racing a bike is not a right last time I checked. Just sayin'.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

KO Kevin

My Dad was never wrong....

Kevin Ko
Community Development Specialist
(541) 726-2302
(541) 741-2763 fax

Development Services
City of Springfield
225 Fifth Street, 97477
http://www.ci.springfield.or.us

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 3:35 PM
To: OBRA remailer
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

Your dad was wrong. It has never been that way.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: KO Kevin
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:33:02
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

"It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare."

And that is where things have changed. When I was growing up, my Dad taught us that price was based on the cost of producing the product and bringing the product to market. There was some relationship between quality (high grade materials and hand-craftsmanship) and price. This whole notion of artificially limiting supply (the ubiquitous "Limited Edition") to allow demand to drive up the price used to be limited to diamonds and a few other markets. That it is now so wide spread as to be the default Econ 101 is a fairly recent trend.

Kevin Ko

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Coker
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:16 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

Last time I checked there wasn't someone standing at my door forcing my to buy that Madone 6.9, those Sidi shoes and the Assos kit. These suppliers are not in the business of putting people on bikes for free, and we shouldn't expect that (entitlement...gotta love it). They all have a range of products for every budget, and we, as consumers, have a choice as to where we want to spend our discretionary income. To call the practice of running a business at a profit egregious may be going a little overboard. It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare. Riding and racing a bike is not a right last time I checked. Just sayin'.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org _______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Your dad was wrong. It has never been that way.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: KO Kevin
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:33:02
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

"It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare."

And that is where things have changed. When I was growing up, my Dad taught us that price was based on the cost of producing the product and bringing the product to market. There was some relationship between quality (high grade materials and hand-craftsmanship) and price. This whole notion of artificially limiting supply (the ubiquitous "Limited Edition") to allow demand to drive up the price used to be limited to diamonds and a few other markets. That it is now so wide spread as to be the default Econ 101 is a fairly recent trend.

Kevin Ko

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Coker
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:16 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

Last time I checked there wasn't someone standing at my door forcing my to buy that Madone 6.9, those Sidi shoes and the Assos kit. These suppliers are not in the business of putting people on bikes for free, and we shouldn't expect that (entitlement...gotta love it). They all have a range of products for every budget, and we, as consumers, have a choice as to where we want to spend our discretionary income. To call the practice of running a business at a profit egregious may be going a little overboard. It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare. Riding and racing a bike is not a right last time I checked. Just sayin'.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

KO Kevin

"It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare."

And that is where things have changed. When I was growing up, my Dad taught us that price was based on the cost of producing the product and bringing the product to market. There was some relationship between quality (high grade materials and hand-craftsmanship) and price. This whole notion of artificially limiting supply (the ubiquitous "Limited Edition") to allow demand to drive up the price used to be limited to diamonds and a few other markets. That it is now so wide spread as to be the default Econ 101 is a fairly recent trend.

Kevin Ko

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Aaron Coker
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:16 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

Last time I checked there wasn't someone standing at my door forcing my to buy that Madone 6.9, those Sidi shoes and the Assos kit. These suppliers are not in the business of putting people on bikes for free, and we shouldn't expect that (entitlement...gotta love it). They all have a range of products for every budget, and we, as consumers, have a choice as to where we want to spend our discretionary income. To call the practice of running a business at a profit egregious may be going a little overboard. It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare. Riding and racing a bike is not a right last time I checked. Just sayin'.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

john

racing bikes can be quite in-expensive. I rarely have spent over 300...
currently a slightly banged up cannondale frame bb30, caad7? and fork for
$230. incredibly light and stiff... Ok i did get a lightly used tandem
for $400. that said, the time i spend tinkering and setting up a used
frame should be taken into account and will increase that price...

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Aaron Coker wrote:

> Last time I checked there wasn't someone standing at my door forcing my to
> buy that Madone 6.9, those Sidi shoes and the Assos kit. These suppliers
> are not in the business of putting people on bikes for free, and we
> shouldn't expect that (entitlement...gotta love it). They all have a range
> of products for every budget, and we, as consumers, have a choice as to
> where we want to spend our discretionary income. To call the practice of
> running a business at a profit egregious may be going a little overboard.
> It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare. Riding and
> racing a bike is not a right last time I checked. Just sayin'.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
jms, pe pdx, or
http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/

Aaron Coker

Last time I checked there wasn't someone standing at my door forcing my to buy that Madone 6.9, those Sidi shoes and the Assos kit. These suppliers are not in the business of putting people on bikes for free, and we shouldn't expect that (entitlement...gotta love it). They all have a range of products for every budget, and we, as consumers, have a choice as to where we want to spend our discretionary income. To call the practice of running a business at a profit egregious may be going a little overboard. It's Econ 101...pricing is based on what the market will bare. Riding and racing a bike is not a right last time I checked. Just sayin'.

Mike Murray

The price is market value. Cost of production fits in there but what people are willing to pay is more important. Somehow people seem to fixate on production costs.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:58:57
To: Michael Mann; ; christian vedder
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

I think on cost is R&D the other is that bike manufacturers pay a lot of money for pro teams to ride there bikes. That may be part of the cause.

Scott
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Mann
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:44:26
To: christian vedder
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Dan Grabski

A big part of the manufacturing cost is indeed R&D, but also tooling. In a
past life I did one project where I designed a carbon fibre part (think a
glorified funnel 6" diameter, 2" wide). I sent it out for quotes for
manufacture, and it was something ridiculous, like nearly $10,000, for one
copy, but maybe $50 more for each subsequent copy. The big initial
investment was machining the metal form to build the carbon fibre around.

I can't imagine how much tooling costs even in China for large scale
manufacture.

Dan

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 08:58, wrote:

> I think on cost is R&D the other is that bike manufacturers pay a lot of
> money for pro teams to ride there bikes. That may be part of the cause.
>
>

Joe Cipale

Dont forget import tariffs on foreign manufactured frames.

halfwheelhill wrote:

> I think on cost is R&D the other is that bike manufacturers pay a lot of money for pro teams to ride there bikes. That may be part of the cause.
>
> Scott
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Mann
> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:44:26
> To: christian vedder
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

halfwheelhill@yahoo.com

I think on cost is R&D the other is that bike manufacturers pay a lot of money for pro teams to ride there bikes. That may be part of the cause.

Scott
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Mann
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 08:44:26
To: christian vedder
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] cost of bikes

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

eric aldinger

There are economical models and brands that have less wow factor. No one
wants to review them as they do not bring in the ad dollars. Look at Hoss
and Performance for cheap clothing. Look at Novara, Scattante, and Fuji for
economical bikes.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:37 AM, christian vedder wrote:

> In the great town of Portland, with all it's bike racers, enthusiasts,
> mechanics Bike builders, etc, there has to be someone out there who can
> explain why a high end Downhill Mountain bike costs the same as a new 450
> EXC, race ready KTM Motocross bike. We have been bad mouthing the Auto
> industry and it's egregious business practices for years, In my opinion the
> bike industry is now doing the same
> The price of bikes, bike parts,clothing, accessories, yada, yada, yada is
> rediculous..
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Eric Aldinger

Michael Mann

Don't even get me started on why a carbon frame stamped out of a mold in
China cost the same as a hand-brazed steel frame that took someone a week or
more to build. Sometimes you pay for the bike, but a lot of the time I think
you're paying for something else.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:37 AM, christian vedder wrote:

> In the great town of Portland, with all it's bike racers, enthusiasts,
> mechanics Bike builders, etc, there has to be someone out there who can
> explain why a high end Downhill Mountain bike costs the same as a new 450
> EXC, race ready KTM Motocross bike. We have been bad mouthing the Auto
> industry and it's egregious business practices for years, In my opinion the
> bike industry is now doing the same
> The price of bikes, bike parts,clothing, accessories, yada, yada, yada is
> rediculous..
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Michael Mann
http://baiku-velomann.blogspot.com/

christian vedder

In the great town of Portland, with all it's bike racers, enthusiasts, mechanics Bike builders, etc, there has to be someone out there who can explain why a high end Downhill Mountain bike costs the same as a new 450 EXC, race ready KTM Motocross bike. We have been bad mouthing the Auto industry and it's egregious business practices for years, In my opinion the bike industry is now doing the same
The price of bikes, bike parts,clothing, accessories, yada, yada, yada is rediculous..