OBRA: OBRA Chat: Where are the MTB results?

DDAVID-@aol.com

2002-06-28

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i assumed that the results for the last two races were not in the hands of

obra yet

i cannot beleive the amount of volunteer work that candi and everyone does at

obra

it is awesome

my concern was with promoters

david

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<HTML>i assumed that the results for the last two races were not in the hands of obra yet 

i cannot beleive the amount of volunteer work that candi and everyone does at obra 

it is awesome 

my concern was with promoters 

david

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Jim Anderson

2002-06-28

Possibly the people that have voiced their concerns could join up with the OBRA MTB officials and

OBRA MTB rep to start a results committee that would oversee and handle results compiling after MTB

races. This could include help in data entry or typing up of results so they can get out faster to

not only the OBRA lists but other media outlets. This would be one thing less that Candi would have

to do and i know she would probably like that off her plate. What also could become of this commitee

is a set of guidelines and steps to take to get results done properly for organizers and also set of

guidlines/steps to take for racers that might have concerns about results. If there were enough

committee members than not everyone member would have to make it to every MTB race to oversee and

impliment this.

Also if you didnt read all of Mike's email, be sure to read this part:

As is the case

with most complaining that I see in bike racing, it generally comes from

people that are doing little to assist the process. If you see something

that you don't like then you need to think first of what you can do to help

with it. There is not a huge staff of well paid people that are having 3

martini lunches when they should be running the sport more efficiently. In

reality there are a handful of people, mostly unpaid, who are doing

everything. At the races that I organize I often refer to the fictional

rule 27a "If you don't like it put on your own race". Once you have done

that you develop a lot more appreciation for the process.

So now...whos on that committee?

-jim

mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

The problem with a policy is that it is useless unless there are penalties

for failure to observe the policy. OBRA could create a penalty for this but

it would have the side effect of discouraging race promotion and increasing

the cost of race promotion both of which would come back to effect the

individual member in decreased number of races and higher entry fees.

There should be some comments on this subject from Jim Fisher and the

mountain bike race organizers but I can point out several reasons why

mountain bike results are delayed relative to road results:

1) The results are harder to produce. In road events only the top 15 or so

are placed and the rest are ignored. No times are kept for riders. Riders

generally finish in large groups with sprints. The different categories do

not intermingle on the road. In mountain bike racing it is my understanding

that they place and time all riders. Riders come into the finish by

themselves or in small groups spread over a much longer period of time and

the categories are often mixed together at the finish.

2) In road racing all the event use a finish line camera, since picking

close finishes is essential. This allows the officials to place all the

needed 15 places shortly after a 100 man field sprint crosses the line. It

takes much longer for a 100 man field to even cross the line in a mountain

bike race.

3) There are many officials at all road races and there are few at mountain

bike races. The officials are paid to be at road races and their primary

function is to produce results. There are fewer officials at mountain bike

races. Results are often produced by a non-official provided by the

organizer. There has been resistance from the race organizers to requiring

more, paying them more, etc. Remember that requiring more and paying them

more will be reflected in increased entry fees. Scheduling officials is a

time consuming job. Being an official is a pain in the butt and definitely

not worth the money that they are paid. These people are the saints that

allow our sport to function.

4) Road race results are mostly posted by Candi. In fact, most of the

mountain bike results are also posted by Candi after she gets them from the

race organizers. On the road Candi is given the results, generally before

she leaves the event, most of which she goes to. Mountain bike results

could be posted directly by whoever provides them but they are generally

sent to Candi how re-posts them. #2 goes to Nancy Magnus followed distantly

by some of the race organizers. At this time of year Candi works

essentially full time on bike race organizing issues, much of that compiling

and posting results. She is NOT paid to do this. Mountain bike racing has

several people involved in doing the same stuff that Candi does but they are

more realistic. They have jobs. They make the race organizers provide the

results. Keep in mind that results are generally provided in handwritten

form and need to be entered into the computer before posting. This is

something to keep in mind before you make the (fairly common) complaint "The

idiot officials had me in 22nd when I KNOW I was 21st" or "Can't you even

spell my name right?"

I am sure there are also other issues of which I am unaware. As is the case

with most complaining that I see in bike racing, it generally comes from

people that are doing little to assist the process. If you see something

that you don't like then you need to think first of what you can do to help

with it. There is not a huge staff of well paid people that are having 3

martini lunches when they should be running the sport more efficiently. In

reality there are a handful of people, mostly unpaid, who are doing

everything. At the races that I organize I often refer to the fictional

rule 27a "If you don't like it put on your own race". Once you have done

that you develop a lot more appreciation for the process.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Jay Martineau [mailto:jay_mar-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 16:58 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Where are the MTB results?

Here, here. I agree. Fact is; there is no reasonable explanation for this.

If there isn't an OBRA policy, there should be.

Jay Martineau

----- Original Message -----

From: "Michael Blahut" <magic-@hotmail.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:58 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Where are the MTB results?

I notice the roadies are well organized and get their results up within

a day or 2. Us dirty bikers have to wait weeks sometimes. It can't be a

money thing because we generally pay more per race. Is there an OBRA

policy that says promoters have to supply results? What's the deal?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

--

Jim Anderson

spa-@teleport.com

503-975-8229

Race Director

Eugene Celebration Cycling Classic (Sept 21-22, 2002)

Lakeside Bicycles Monday Night Masters and Women PIR Race Series

DDAVID-@aol.com

2002-06-28

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jim

what we are asking for is change, not someone to tell us thats just the way

it is.

i find it real hard to skip races that i know are poorly ran( many this year

have been good ), because i am trying to be competitive in the bar and there

are only 17 races.

i think obra should have a three strikes and you are out policy in regards to

situations were there are numerous complaints.

thank-you

david baker

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<HTML>jim 

what we are asking for is change, not someone to tell us thats just the way it is. 

i find it real hard to skip races that i know are poorly ran( many this year have been good ), because i am trying to be competitive in the bar and there are only 17 races. 

i think obra should have a three strikes and you are out policy in regards to situations were there are numerous complaints. 

thank-you 

david baker

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mike.m-@obra.org

2002-06-28

The problem with a policy is that it is useless unless there are penalties

for failure to observe the policy. OBRA could create a penalty for this but

it would have the side effect of discouraging race promotion and increasing

the cost of race promotion both of which would come back to effect the

individual member in decreased number of races and higher entry fees.

There should be some comments on this subject from Jim Fisher and the

mountain bike race organizers but I can point out several reasons why

mountain bike results are delayed relative to road results:

1) The results are harder to produce. In road events only the top 15 or so

are placed and the rest are ignored. No times are kept for riders. Riders

generally finish in large groups with sprints. The different categories do

not intermingle on the road. In mountain bike racing it is my understanding

that they place and time all riders. Riders come into the finish by

themselves or in small groups spread over a much longer period of time and

the categories are often mixed together at the finish.

2) In road racing all the event use a finish line camera, since picking

close finishes is essential. This allows the officials to place all the

needed 15 places shortly after a 100 man field sprint crosses the line. It

takes much longer for a 100 man field to even cross the line in a mountain

bike race.

3) There are many officials at all road races and there are few at mountain

bike races. The officials are paid to be at road races and their primary

function is to produce results. There are fewer officials at mountain bike

races. Results are often produced by a non-official provided by the

organizer. There has been resistance from the race organizers to requiring

more, paying them more, etc. Remember that requiring more and paying them

more will be reflected in increased entry fees. Scheduling officials is a

time consuming job. Being an official is a pain in the butt and definitely

not worth the money that they are paid. These people are the saints that

allow our sport to function.

4) Road race results are mostly posted by Candi. In fact, most of the

mountain bike results are also posted by Candi after she gets them from the

race organizers. On the road Candi is given the results, generally before

she leaves the event, most of which she goes to. Mountain bike results

could be posted directly by whoever provides them but they are generally

sent to Candi how re-posts them. #2 goes to Nancy Magnus followed distantly

by some of the race organizers. At this time of year Candi works

essentially full time on bike race organizing issues, much of that compiling

and posting results. She is NOT paid to do this. Mountain bike racing has

several people involved in doing the same stuff that Candi does but they are

more realistic. They have jobs. They make the race organizers provide the

results. Keep in mind that results are generally provided in handwritten

form and need to be entered into the computer before posting. This is

something to keep in mind before you make the (fairly common) complaint "The

idiot officials had me in 22nd when I KNOW I was 21st" or "Can't you even

spell my name right?"

I am sure there are also other issues of which I am unaware. As is the case

with most complaining that I see in bike racing, it generally comes from

people that are doing little to assist the process. If you see something

that you don't like then you need to think first of what you can do to help

with it. There is not a huge staff of well paid people that are having 3

martini lunches when they should be running the sport more efficiently. In

reality there are a handful of people, mostly unpaid, who are doing

everything. At the races that I organize I often refer to the fictional

rule 27a "If you don't like it put on your own race". Once you have done

that you develop a lot more appreciation for the process.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Jay Martineau [mailto:jay_mar-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 16:58 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Where are the MTB results?

Here, here. I agree. Fact is; there is no reasonable explanation for this.

If there isn't an OBRA policy, there should be.

Jay Martineau

----- Original Message -----

From: "Michael Blahut" <magic-@hotmail.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:58 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Where are the MTB results?

I notice the roadies are well organized and get their results up within

a day or 2. Us dirty bikers have to wait weeks sometimes. It can't be a

money thing because we generally pay more per race. Is there an OBRA

policy that says promoters have to supply results? What's the deal?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

FISCHER,JAMES (HP-Corvallis,ex1)

2002-06-28

Michael,

There are several factors involved:

1.) I think mountain biking as a few more categories to keep track of. Five

age classifications x five ability levels x 2 sexes + funky categories such

as single speed, clydesdale, tandem or whatever. Usually there are about

30-40 groups to deal with.

2.) The road side often has more help at the events from well trained

officials (who are paid) who help with or completely do timing and results.

The mountain side has not evolved this far. We have six officials, where

two have been primarily working all the events - Shane Young and Kevin

Thompson.

3.) Series points are calculated AFTER receiving results. Shane has been

doing the points, but he can only do them after he has good results to work

with. This can often involve several days of Sherlock Holmes detective work

to decode garbled results submitted by promoters.

4.) Mountain bike racers often get lost thus complicating the results

process. This may be due to the difficulty in adequately marking a course

for navigation at speed and under strenuous circumstances.

5.) Field size may affect how long it takes to process results. Once

again, I'm not aware of road field sizes, but with each mountain bike race,

you have a time trial with 100-300 people who start at one or more times and

finish over a period of a few hours. There are lots of times to write down

and correlate with placings.

There are several things racers can do to help:

1.) Actually help out at the race. Talk with the promoter before hand to

see if you can be of assistance at the finish, on course, before or after

the race filling in some need where the knowledge of a racer would be

useful. Maybe you'll get a free entry for your assistance. Do not wait

until race day to try this approach.

2.) Make sure your information is correct at registration, as they pull

your tag (if done), at awards and anytime in between.

3.) Buy a cyclometer or stopwatch and use it to record your race time. If

you suspect an error, at least you'll have data. Very biased data, but data

nonetheless.

4.) Attend races with a reputation for organization and avoid the ones

known for problems. The good races will prevail and the bad ones will

either figure it out or go away.

If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to contact me at

jim_fi-@hp.com.

Regards, Jim Fischer

OBRA ATB Official

-----Original Message-----

From: Michael Blahut [mailto:magic-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:58 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Where are the MTB results?

I notice the roadies are well organized and get their results up within

a day or 2. Us dirty bikers have to wait weeks sometimes. It can't be a

money thing because we generally pay more per race. Is there an OBRA

policy that says promoters have to supply results? What's the deal?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Gil Ormerod

2002-06-27

We "generally" pay more? Man, we ALWAYS pay more.

Only race I can remember when we paid a similar entry fee to a road race

was the Team S&M race in '99. I think it was called Doty's Challenge or

something like that, but I also heard it called 'The Cheap Race.' I think

the entry fee was just $15, and they had some pretty good prizes, too!

Still, I've always assumed that the costs are higher to the promoters of a

mountain bike race, so I'm not complaining, just clarifying.

Gee. Pay more to hurt more. Where's the sense in that? :-)

Oh, I agree about the results. I don't get why it takes so long either.

Gil Ormerod

Michael Blahut wrote:

I notice the roadies are well organized and get their results up within

a day or 2. Us dirty bikers have to wait weeks sometimes. It can't be a

money thing because we generally pay more per race. Is there an OBRA

policy that says promoters have to supply results? What's the deal?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Jay Martineau

2002-06-27

Here, here. I agree. Fact is; there is no reasonable explanation for this.

If there isn't an OBRA policy, there should be.

Jay Martineau

----- Original Message -----

From: "Michael Blahut" <magic-@hotmail.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 11:58 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Where are the MTB results?

I notice the roadies are well organized and get their results up within

a day or 2. Us dirty bikers have to wait weeks sometimes. It can't be a

money thing because we generally pay more per race. Is there an OBRA

policy that says promoters have to supply results? What's the deal?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Michael Blahut

2002-06-27

I notice the roadies are well organized and get their results up within

a day or 2. Us dirty bikers have to wait weeks sometimes. It can't be a

money thing because we generally pay more per race. Is there an OBRA

policy that says promoters have to supply results? What's the deal?