Jon Myers

   As a promoter of mountain bike race and an avid racer I must agree

with Tim about the quality level of the mountain bike races this year.

I have personally raced in 8 events this year and there have been

significant course marking problems that have impacted results in 3 of

those 8 events. That is an unacceptable percentage, particularly when

you drive hours to get to an event and cough up $35 to race.



   Mountain bike races are far more difficult to mark than a road race.

The courses are less accessable and tend to have many more

intersections. There is absolutely no way to have a corner marshall at

every intersection. You cannot do much marking ahead of time because

the markings will be taken down by vandals(I learned this a couple of

years ago when someone took down all the ribbon that I put up the

weekend before the Race at Reehers).



   In theory there are penalties that promoters have to pay if they do

not get results in to Jim Fischer within about a week. Each promoter

had to pay a $200 deposit. If the promoter does everything according to

what what they agreed to: paperwork to OBRA, paying insurance, sending

in results, etc., they get their deposit back. Otherwise they do not.

This was supposed to improve results submission. Has it?



   I believe that the high price of mountain bike races is killing

participation. There are high quality events that can charge $35 for

day of race entry. These are events that have execellent well marked

courses, a lot of perks, many prizes, are well run and have a lot of

prestige. Off the top of my head, events like the Cascade Chainbreaker

and Spring Thaw consistantly do this. They are rare and don't happen

every weekend. Is there room for lower cost quality events? I think

so.

   

   I now issue a challenge to T-thug Evens. I challenge you and the

Gentle Lovers to put on a race next year as part of and informal grass

roots series. Here are the challenge requirements: Less than $20 day

of race entry fee, extremely well marked course, quick day of race

results, and published results to the web by the day after the event.

Team S&M will be doing such an MTB race next year. We would be glad to

hear from any other club that would like to join us and share the cost

of a mailing.

   Jon Myers, Team S&M

mike.m-@obra.org

I sent the following response to Tim directly yesterday. Since the subject

has come up again I thought I should share it with the list.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Mike.M-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 8:43 AM

To: monkey-@yahoo.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] mountain bike promoters ineffective





I understand your concern and I worry about it too. OBRA is a risk when

events are improperly organized, not only from a legal point of view but

also from a public relations viewpoint. Often I think that OBRA would be

much better off if we left mountain bike racing on it's own, especially

downhill racing.



One of the problems is that the only hammer that OBRA holds is the ability

to deny insurance coverage to race organizers who have done a poor job or

who have not met the requirements that we lay out. Since the insurance

paperwork is filed well before the event and paid for after the event this

is a fairly weak hammer.



Another problem is that there is not excess funds generated for the OBRA

budget by mountain bike involvement. Certainly there is not enough money to

hire people to baby-sit race organizers.



In addition, we depend on the feedback from the mountain bike

representatives, race organizers and riders. This is something that we

rarely get, other than random grumbling on the OBRA list serve.



I think that mountain bike racing may suffer significantly in this area

because road racing is so well organized. In other parts of the country

road races are so poorly put together that mountain bike events may even

look good in comparison.



If you have specific ideas about what OBRA could do to change the process

and improve the quality of mountain bike racing then you should communicate

them to the OBRA mountain bike rep:



JIM FISCHER

Business: (541) 715-6880

Home: (541) 754-3752

Mobile: (541) 990-8979

E-mail: jim_fi-@hp.com

E-mail 2: atb_repre-@obra.org



Ideally any suggestions will include specifics about how the change in

process will be organized, staffed and funded.



There is also an OBRA board member assigned to be the liaison with mountain

bike racing. This is David Auker. Unfortunately he is not a mountain bike

racer himself and does not have much interest in the subject. He got

saddled with it because all the other specific board responsibilities were

already claimed. In addition there was not a single mountain bike racer at

the annual meeting, no mountain bike club was represented, none voted and

there were no mountain bike racers who were interested in an OBRA board

position. There are 2 board positions elected each year. It is my hope

that someone will step forward to represent mountain bike racing, at least

to vote. Let me know if you need David's contact info.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Eric & Kari Kytola [mailto:zask-@email.msn.com]

Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 14:58 PM

To: monkey-@yahoo.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] mountain bike promoters ineffective





how ironic.... I was going to send this e-mail out myself today.



the mountain bike races I have attended this year have had the poorest

course marking I have ever raced through. the first race I attended this

year was one I had done 2 or 3 times before. I knew the course generally but

I had also ridden different variations of it's layout. this turned out to be

my demise, had the course been the same year after year then I would have

questioned the corner marshal more than the two times I did, before

accepting the direction from her to go the wrong way. the second race was

generally the same deal. horrible markings and a variation of a course I had

ridden before. this time however my goal for the race changed from "I will

win!" to "I want to stay on the course the whole time without being

mis-directed". there was confusion right on the trail, during the race,

involving the pro/expert class. it really made me mad that yet again the

leaders of a group had been mis-directed. I read the "promoters handbook"

and the "OBRA rules" after the first race and it is fairly specific on how

courses should be marked yet neither of the races I attended followed the

criteria set forth in these documents. as an experienced racer that has done

these courses in the past I had a general idea of where I was supposed to be

going but I can't help but cringe and worry about first time racers. I can

tell you with certainty that I would never let me kids race a mountain bike

race. the chance that there would be lost kids is too great. so on this

point I feel that OBRA is responsible for ensuring that promoters utilize

the simple course marking rules set forth in the "promoters handbook" and

the "OBRA rules" documents.



now for the real stinger in all of this mis-direction/poor course marking.

what happens after the leaders are mis-directed. while I was racing at the

first race of the year I had amassed a sizeable lead and was already

starting to enjoy the win when I was mis-directed. I was merely 4 or less

downhill miles from the finish and had minutes in hand at mis-direction

time. I did the extra loop and finished. I went to the promoter and started

explaining myself, now to make a really long saga short I was eventually

told by the promoter, the two OBRA officials at the race, Candi and Jim "the

fish" that it was really my responsibility to know the course. I argued the

point for days but got no where. I eventually accepted their decision and

let it go.....until last weekend. the lead pro/expert riders were sent the

wrong way, some of the pro/experts did a short second loop and some did the

actual course. to my utter disbelief and annoyance there was an "adjusting"

of the results after it was discovered that the field was in mayhem. how is

it possible that the rules change from race to race? the same exact thing

happened: the course marshals mis-directed the lead racer but the end

results were completely opposite. "go stuff yourself" in the first case and

"ohhh boy let's try to work this out" in the second. I don't care which one

is right.......just pick one and stick with it!



something has to be done, someone is responsible but it isn't the racers, as

is trying to be feed to us. we are paying for a service!



The Thug is right!!



----- Original Message -----

From: "mr. T-thug Evens" <monkey-@yahoo.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 7:59 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] mountain bike promoters ineffective





 as both an avid road and mountain bike racer for the

last 5 years i've come to be concerned with the level

of quality control in relation to mountain bike

promoters.

this past season started perfectly with the mudslinger

being revived and put on without a hitch. the course

was well marked, course workers were competant, and

fees were reasonable. i don't understand how some

races can be put on so flawlessly (kudos to mike

ripley and darren snyder) while others can be put on

with a complete disregard for race promotion

fundamentals. i've seen 3 courses this year with

hideously mismarked courses, this should be a basic

facet of race promotion. results have been lagging,

while fees sit at 35$ for a day of race registration.

as the governing body i feel that obra is somewhat

responsible with quality control in these matters. i

would like to see some sort of regulation as far as

entry fees and at least an official forum to file

complaints. i know that obra has bylaws regarding

complaints but each time this season that i've voiced

my opinion and asked for changes i've been either

blown off by the promotor or directly told that i'm

wrong while others are voicing the same feelings.



i think it is imperative that there be some quality

control in oregon bicycle racing if we wish to

maintain a healthy race scene. i feel sorry for those

promoters who put on quality events as the reputation

of oregon racing is simply spoiled by a few poorly run

events.





please take my complaints seriously as i feel this

problem won't remedy itself



thanks,



tim evens

gentle lovers



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Eric & Kari Kytola

how ironic.... I was going to send this e-mail out myself today.



the mountain bike races I have attended this year have had the poorest

course marking I have ever raced through. the first race I attended this

year was one I had done 2 or 3 times before. I knew the course generally but

I had also ridden different variations of it's layout. this turned out to be

my demise, had the course been the same year after year then I would have

questioned the corner marshal more than the two times I did, before

accepting the direction from her to go the wrong way. the second race was

generally the same deal. horrible markings and a variation of a course I had

ridden before. this time however my goal for the race changed from "I will

win!" to "I want to stay on the course the whole time without being

mis-directed". there was confusion right on the trail, during the race,

involving the pro/expert class. it really made me mad that yet again the

leaders of a group had been mis-directed. I read the "promoters handbook"

and the "OBRA rules" after the first race and it is fairly specific on how

courses should be marked yet neither of the races I attended followed the

criteria set forth in these documents. as an experienced racer that has done

these courses in the past I had a general idea of where I was supposed to be

going but I can't help but cringe and worry about first time racers. I can

tell you with certainty that I would never let me kids race a mountain bike

race. the chance that there would be lost kids is too great. so on this

point I feel that OBRA is responsible for ensuring that promoters utilize

the simple course marking rules set forth in the "promoters handbook" and

the "OBRA rules" documents.



now for the real stinger in all of this mis-direction/poor course marking.

what happens after the leaders are mis-directed. while I was racing at the

first race of the year I had amassed a sizeable lead and was already

starting to enjoy the win when I was mis-directed. I was merely 4 or less

downhill miles from the finish and had minutes in hand at mis-direction

time. I did the extra loop and finished. I went to the promoter and started

explaining myself, now to make a really long saga short I was eventually

told by the promoter, the two OBRA officials at the race, Candi and Jim "the

fish" that it was really my responsibility to know the course. I argued the

point for days but got no where. I eventually accepted their decision and

let it go.....until last weekend. the lead pro/expert riders were sent the

wrong way, some of the pro/experts did a short second loop and some did the

actual course. to my utter disbelief and annoyance there was an "adjusting"

of the results after it was discovered that the field was in mayhem. how is

it possible that the rules change from race to race? the same exact thing

happened: the course marshals mis-directed the lead racer but the end

results were completely opposite. "go stuff yourself" in the first case and

"ohhh boy let's try to work this out" in the second. I don't care which one

is right.......just pick one and stick with it!



something has to be done, someone is responsible but it isn't the racers, as

is trying to be feed to us. we are paying for a service!



The Thug is right!!



----- Original Message -----

From: "mr. T-thug Evens" <monkey-@yahoo.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 7:59 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] mountain bike promoters ineffective





 as both an avid road and mountain bike racer for the

last 5 years i've come to be concerned with the level

of quality control in relation to mountain bike

promoters.

this past season started perfectly with the mudslinger

being revived and put on without a hitch. the course

was well marked, course workers were competant, and

fees were reasonable. i don't understand how some

races can be put on so flawlessly (kudos to mike

ripley and darren snyder) while others can be put on

with a complete disregard for race promotion

fundamentals. i've seen 3 courses this year with

hideously mismarked courses, this should be a basic

facet of race promotion. results have been lagging,

while fees sit at 35$ for a day of race registration.

as the governing body i feel that obra is somewhat

responsible with quality control in these matters. i

would like to see some sort of regulation as far as

entry fees and at least an official forum to file

complaints. i know that obra has bylaws regarding

complaints but each time this season that i've voiced

my opinion and asked for changes i've been either

blown off by the promotor or directly told that i'm

wrong while others are voicing the same feelings.



i think it is imperative that there be some quality

control in oregon bicycle racing if we wish to

maintain a healthy race scene. i feel sorry for those

promoters who put on quality events as the reputation

of oregon racing is simply spoiled by a few poorly run

events.





please take my complaints seriously as i feel this

problem won't remedy itself



thanks,



tim evens

gentle lovers



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

mr. T-thug Evens

as both an avid road and mountain bike racer for the

last 5 years i've come to be concerned with the level

of quality control in relation to mountain bike

promoters.

this past season started perfectly with the mudslinger

being revived and put on without a hitch. the course

was well marked, course workers were competant, and

fees were reasonable. i don't understand how some

races can be put on so flawlessly (kudos to mike

ripley and darren snyder) while others can be put on

with a complete disregard for race promotion

fundamentals. i've seen 3 courses this year with

hideously mismarked courses, this should be a basic

facet of race promotion. results have been lagging,

while fees sit at 35$ for a day of race registration.

as the governing body i feel that obra is somewhat

responsible with quality control in these matters. i

would like to see some sort of regulation as far as

entry fees and at least an official forum to file

complaints. i know that obra has bylaws regarding

complaints but each time this season that i've voiced

my opinion and asked for changes i've been either

blown off by the promotor or directly told that i'm

wrong while others are voicing the same feelings.



i think it is imperative that there be some quality

control in oregon bicycle racing if we wish to

maintain a healthy race scene. i feel sorry for those

promoters who put on quality events as the reputation

of oregon racing is simply spoiled by a few poorly run

events.





please take my complaints seriously as i feel this

problem won't remedy itself



thanks,



tim evens

gentle lovers



__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com