Re: UCI and cyclocross tire sizing

Joel Metz

2010-06-25

all this talk about disc brakes and fat tires has gotten to where i cant
keep my big flippant mouth shut.

disc brakes: who needs em? you only ever need to shave 5 mph off your
speed at any point in cross anyhow, right? slower wheel changes, heavier
equipment, meat slicers at ankle height, rotors waiting to get bent (at
least you can finish out a lap, or even a race, on a warped rim), and no
*real* mud clearance advantage (seriously. if cantis are giving you mud
clearance issues, either your frame clearance is too tight, or youre
riding in mud you can hardly pedal through anyhow). disc brakes? meh. ill
stick with my mafacs.

no tires over 33mm: really? people ride tires wider than 32mm? whatever
for? heck, riding 32s i feel like im on a beach cruiser. doesnt anyone
make 28s anymore?

the rule that really angers up *my* blood is the one that caters to the
bunnyhopping lobby - that is, shorter barriers and wider spacing now
legal. all the better to increase the spectacle and draw in more of the
pro mtb crowd, but of no real benefit to racing from where i sit - though
i am happy about the implied increase in total number of obstacles.

basically, im on the fence about the whole thing. no real opinion on my
part. harumph.

-joel

--
joel metz : magpie@blackbirdsf.org : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective : http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
after she got that bicycle...


Ron and Dorothy Strasser

2010-06-24

I have to laugh. I also say I am sorry if I seemed "too negative" regarding tire size. But I do think the idea of limiting tire size as a way to contain cost is not the right place. I agree about tubulars being ousted. The cost for buying and maintaining them is a perfect example of why just using clinchers would be more conducive to containing cost. Evan has a good point about an idea of "stock" and "modified" bike classes. That might be neat. Bike weenies could race in the modified class and regular nerds like strasser could be in the stock class. Of course I would demand that stock include Chris King components. So many cans of worms to open.
Martin is correct about disc brakes! The weight of disc is not an issue in the heavy mud races and the disc brakes will consistently shave your speed where needed. The mud will not be plugged in your rim brakes and those expensive rims will last much longer (cost containment). Now if I was riding a bike with disc brakes, changing tires will not be an issue as I would be running those 34c tubeless tires which seem to not flat on me. The only thing I would add about disc brakes is that their development (especially the mechanical style, not hydraulic) may be the most functional improvement for people commuting and using bikes on a daily basis as the brakes last a long time, are so easy to adjust, are simple to maintain and preserve the wheel. All this said... I come back to how much we love our cyclocross here in Oregon. Tire talk just shows that.
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Baker
To: Shane Gibson ; OBRA list
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing

I think there will be a benefit to disc brakes in 'cross but it won't come from increased power. Think about how you use your brakes in cyclocross: you give the lever a quick feather just to bleed off some speed as you approach an obstacle. Contrast that with the full on lever grab in mountain biking as you approach a corner at 3x the speed at which you can negotiate it. There you need the power. In 'cross you don't.

What discs will get you in 'cross is massive amounts of mud clearance. Without canti calipers there to collect all the mud/leaves/corn stalks, the bike will be way faster and lighter in the sticky mud.

mb

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Shane Gibson wrote:

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:41 PM, wrote:

Does anybody really think that there will be any real advantage to racing cx with disc brakes? I don't.

I do. Better brakes means you can stop faster and with much more modulated control of that braking power. It means you can enter into corners with more speed before braking.

When I switched from Linear Pull V-Brakes on my MTB to Disc Brakes, I found I could ride faster with more confidence - because I had better braking control and power. When I switched from a 6" rotor up front to an 8" rotor up front on my MTB - I was more confident on much much much steeper terrain, I knew I had the braking control to handle the conditions. Hence, I rode faster on steeper downhills; I could stop safely when I couldn't with less capable brakes.

I'm not certain that CX will see a significant boost in riding speed due to switching from rim to disc brakes - but I wouldn't be surprised if some riders find they can carry more speed through obstacles due to the increased braking speed and most importantly, modulation/control of that braking power. Maybe some of it's mental - but I *know* a lot of it is hard evidence.

v/r
Shane

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Martin Baker

2010-06-24

I think there will be a benefit to disc brakes in 'cross but it won't come
from increased power. Think about how you use your brakes in cyclocross: you
give the lever a quick feather just to bleed off some speed as you approach
an obstacle. Contrast that with the full on lever grab in mountain biking as
you approach a corner at 3x the speed at which you can negotiate it. There
you need the power. In 'cross you don't.

What discs will get you in 'cross is massive amounts of mud clearance.
Without canti calipers there to collect all the mud/leaves/corn stalks, the
bike will be way faster and lighter in the sticky mud.

mb

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Shane Gibson wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:41 PM, wrote:
>
>> Does anybody really think that there will be any real advantage to
>> racing cx with disc brakes? I don't.
>>
>
> I do. Better brakes means you can stop faster and with much more modulated
> control of that braking power. It means you can enter into corners with
> more speed before braking.
>
> When I switched from Linear Pull V-Brakes on my MTB to Disc Brakes, I found
> I could ride faster with more confidence - because I had better braking
> control and power. When I switched from a 6" rotor up front to an 8" rotor
> up front on my MTB - I was more confident on much much much steeper terrain,
> I knew I had the braking control to handle the conditions. Hence, I rode
> faster on steeper downhills; I could stop safely when I couldn't with less
> capable brakes.
>
> I'm not certain that CX will see a significant boost in riding speed due to
> switching from rim to disc brakes - but I wouldn't be surprised if some
> riders find they can carry more speed through obstacles due to the increased
> braking speed and most importantly, modulation/control of that braking
> power. Maybe some of it's mental - but I *know* a lot of it is hard
> evidence.
>
> v/r
> Shane
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Shane Gibson

2010-06-24

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:41 PM, wrote:

> Does anybody really think that there will be any real advantage to racing
> cx with disc brakes? I don't.
>

I do. Better brakes means you can stop faster and with much more modulated
control of that braking power. It means you can enter into corners with
more speed before braking.

When I switched from Linear Pull V-Brakes on my MTB to Disc Brakes, I found
I could ride faster with more confidence - because I had better braking
control and power. When I switched from a 6" rotor up front to an 8" rotor
up front on my MTB - I was more confident on much much much steeper terrain,
I knew I had the braking control to handle the conditions. Hence, I rode
faster on steeper downhills; I could stop safely when I couldn't with less
capable brakes.

I'm not certain that CX will see a significant boost in riding speed due to
switching from rim to disc brakes - but I wouldn't be surprised if some
riders find they can carry more speed through obstacles due to the increased
braking speed and most importantly, modulation/control of that braking
power. Maybe some of it's mental - but I *know* a lot of it is hard
evidence.

v/r
Shane


c.rycewicz@comcast.net

2010-06-24

A whole bunch of people are going to go out and retool so they have the "latest and greatest" brake technology.  Does anybody really think that there will be any real advantage to racing cx with disc brakes?  I don't.  But my cross bikes are steel.  They don't provide that much advantage over everything else, just because they handle better.   

Christopher A. Rycewicz%0D%0Ac.rycewicz%40comcast.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Weathers"
To: ibis23@comcast.net, RickCJohnson1@gmail.com, "Brian Johnson"
Cc: "OBRA"
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 1:58:49 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing

No kidding ... new wheels, forks, frames, brifters ... why again didn't they allow discs 10 years ago?  I guess it's irrelevant, what's important is that now there is a much larger population of racers the industry can market the "new" disc technology to.

From: David Rosen
To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com; Brian Johnson
Cc: OBRA
Sent: Thu, June 24, 2010 1:53:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing

I don't get how limiting the tire width does anyone any good. Now that disc brakes are legal, we will see a huge upswing in disc technology and consequently in fork construction and other parts to. The arms race has just been started again for everyone who will want to upgrade or buy new bikes to compete. I can't accept that tire size would be more of an arms race than the disc wars will be.

Just my $.02.
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Johnson < RickCJohnson1@gmail.com >
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:37:47
To: Brian Johnson< brian.p.johnson@gmail.com >
Reply-To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com
Cc: < obra@list.obra.org >
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing

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David Rosen

2010-06-24

I think you are totally right about it being a business decision for the manufacturers. Think about how cx is growing and the potential revenue stream that will come from it.

From an earlier post mentioning ET's thoughts- he is wise and knows many things, but I think we will see an upswing from amateurs buying these parts as opposed to Pro's for specifically ET's reasons.
------Original Message------
From: Rick Johnson
To: Home
Cc: Brian Johnson
Cc: OBRA
ReplyTo: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing
Sent: Jun 24, 2010 4:03 PM

I agree, it does seem counterintuitive to be going one way on tires and
the other with brakes. Maybe they decided to do one and the other was
just an attempt to balance cost against it.

A possibility is that there was pressure from industry to get disc
brakes more widely adopted. That would assume there is a profit
incentive to selling more bikes with disc brakes. After all where do you
think disc brakes would be better received by the market (after MTB of
course) - for road use or cyclocross?

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

David Rosen wrote:
> I don't get how limiting the tire width does anyone any good. Now that disc brakes are legal, we will see a huge upswing in disc technology and consequently in fork construction and other parts to. The arms race has just been started again for everyone who will want to upgrade or buy new bikes to compete. I can't accept that tire size would be more of an arms race than the disc wars will be.
>
> Just my $.02.
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Johnson
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:37:47
> To: Brian Johnson
> Reply-To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>

Dave


Rick Johnson

2010-06-24

Don't underestimate the power of evolved technology on the speed of
wheel change issue. Back in the day we did pitstops on motorcycles with
disc brakes in 9.8 seconds.

Typically the wheel change was done several seconds before all the gas
was in.



Rick



Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke






Matthew Case wrote:
I talked to ET about this, (the Sellwood ET, not the extra
terrestrial) and he brought up the usual weight argument about disc
brakes which may be fixed through technology but he also mentioned
wheel changes.  Anyone who knows about changing a wheel with a disc
knows that it takes a little more finesse than changing a wheel with a
rim brake.  Those seconds will add up over a UCI race and I don't think
pros will favor the disc over the speed of wheel changes.



I'm regurgitating Erik's reasoning, so please don't credit me with such
sound arguments.  :)



Matt Case



On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 1:53 PM, David Rosen
<ibis23@comcast.net>
wrote:

I
don't get how limiting the tire width does anyone any good. Now that
disc brakes are legal, we will see a huge upswing in disc technology
and consequently in fork construction and other parts to. The arms race
has just been started again for everyone who will want to upgrade or
buy new bikes to compete. I can't accept that tire size would be more
of an arms race than the disc wars will be.



Just my $.02.

Dave



-----Original Message-----

From: Rick Johnson <RickCJohnson1@gmail.com>

Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:37:47

To: Brian Johnson<brian.p.johnson@gmail.com>

Reply-To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com

Cc: <obra@list.obra.org>

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing



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Rick Johnson

2010-06-24

I agree, it does seem counterintuitive to be going one way on tires and
the other with brakes. Maybe they decided to do one and the other was
just an attempt to balance cost against it.

A possibility is that there was pressure from industry to get disc
brakes more widely adopted. That would assume there is a profit
incentive to selling more bikes with disc brakes. After all where do you
think disc brakes would be better received by the market (after MTB of
course) - for road use or cyclocross?

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

David Rosen wrote:
> I don't get how limiting the tire width does anyone any good. Now that disc brakes are legal, we will see a huge upswing in disc technology and consequently in fork construction and other parts to. The arms race has just been started again for everyone who will want to upgrade or buy new bikes to compete. I can't accept that tire size would be more of an arms race than the disc wars will be.
>
> Just my $.02.
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Johnson
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:37:47
> To: Brian Johnson
> Reply-To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>


Matthew Case

2010-06-24

I talked to ET about this, (the Sellwood ET, not the extra terrestrial) and
he brought up the usual weight argument about disc brakes which may be fixed
through technology but he also mentioned wheel changes. Anyone who knows
about changing a wheel with a disc knows that it takes a little more finesse
than changing a wheel with a rim brake. Those seconds will add up over a
UCI race and I don't think pros will favor the disc over the speed of wheel
changes.

I'm regurgitating Erik's reasoning, so please don't credit me with such
sound arguments. :)

Matt Case

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 1:53 PM, David Rosen wrote:

> I don't get how limiting the tire width does anyone any good. Now that disc
> brakes are legal, we will see a huge upswing in disc technology and
> consequently in fork construction and other parts to. The arms race has just
> been started again for everyone who will want to upgrade or buy new bikes to
> compete. I can't accept that tire size would be more of an arms race than
> the disc wars will be.
>
> Just my $.02.
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Johnson
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:37:47
> To: Brian Johnson
> Reply-To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


John Weathers

2010-06-24

No kidding ... new wheels, forks, frames, brifters ... why again didn't they allow discs 10 years ago? I guess it's irrelevant, what's important is that now there is a much larger population of racers the industry can market the "new" disc technology to.

________________________________
From: David Rosen
To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com; Brian Johnson
Cc: OBRA
Sent: Thu, June 24, 2010 1:53:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing

I don't get how limiting the tire width does anyone any good. Now that disc brakes are legal, we will see a huge upswing in disc technology and consequently in fork construction and other parts to. The arms race has just been started again for everyone who will want to upgrade or buy new bikes to compete. I can't accept that tire size would be more of an arms race than the disc wars will be.

Just my $.02.
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Johnson
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:37:47
To: Brian Johnson
Reply-To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing

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David Rosen

2010-06-24

I don't get how limiting the tire width does anyone any good. Now that disc brakes are legal, we will see a huge upswing in disc technology and consequently in fork construction and other parts to. The arms race has just been started again for everyone who will want to upgrade or buy new bikes to compete. I can't accept that tire size would be more of an arms race than the disc wars will be.

Just my $.02.
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Johnson
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:37:47
To: Brian Johnson
Reply-To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI and cyclocross tire sizing

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Rick Johnson

2010-06-24

Brian,

It's easier to understand their logic if you step back and look the big
picture. In theory one of the primary obligations of any racing
organization is to ensure the continued health and success of the
racing. Cost containment is usually one of the bigger problems that any
racing organization will face. The scenario starts out like an arms
race - a new thing is tried and proven to be an advantage. Very quickly
everyone who hopes to be competitive must have it. Then the next thing
comes along, and another. This innovation is all well and good up to a
point. But often what happens is the participants start to fall behind
because their budgets won't allow the continued expense of the arms
race. They quit racing and participation falls off. If the situation
continues uncorrected it can result in the demise of the series or the
even the entire organization. I've seen this pattern repeated many
times in motorsports.



So, the sanctioning body (in this case the UCI) has felt a need to
adjust the balance by limiting the number of tires (and therefore
wheels) that each competitor must have in order to cover all possible
conditions. It's not about attacking freedom of choice, just keeping a
even level of competition and a reasonable cost for the series.



Rick

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke






Brian Johnson wrote:

I really don't understand the UCI. How does this restriction on
tire size help? Their rulings just seem so arcane.





Although I saw what looked like a Surly Pugsly running around at
the last STXC. I'm sure that these abominations will be showing up at
CX this fall and just RUIN the "fun" for everyone. Perhaps OBRA should
take a more "hands on" approach like the UCI and prevent us all from
devolving into amoeba.





Then again, I'm an amateur and almost 40 so I don't really
matter to cycling as a sport at all. Please ignore me.






* * *

My father asks : "Do you live here or ride bikes?"






My life as a Crossniac:
















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Brian Johnson

2010-06-24

I really don't understand the UCI. How does this restriction on tire
size help? Their rulings just seem so arcane.

Although I saw what looked like a Surly Pugsly running around at the
last STXC. I'm sure that these abominations will be showing up at CX
this fall and just RUIN the "fun" for everyone. Perhaps OBRA should
take a more "hands on" approach like the UCI and prevent us all from
devolving into amoeba.

Then again, I'm an amateur and almost 40 so I don't really matter to
cycling as a sport at all. Please ignore me.

* * *
My father asks : "Do you live here or ride bikes?"
http://liveorridebikes.blogspot.com

My life as a Crossniac:
www.crossniacs.com