sean

His arms are much longer than a t rex.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Moore
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 13:09 PM
To: brian.p.johnson@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC

My wife is a nurse, you do the math.
The beginners race is also for people who have never raced the STXC. Ryan
Weaver with the arm's and legs of a T-rex started in cat 4 on track last
year. He might as well as stolen fourth graders lunch money. see you next
week...

Matt Radich

That was me on the Ridley. I had a great ride that day. That was the first race I've ever won. I usually dominate the middle of the pack. I was 15th the previous week and to be honest, I had no idea mountain bikers were so slow (just kidding).

I will race the 2s tonight.

Matt

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 13:25:13 -0700
From: t.hoffman10@verizon.net
To: trevpratt@aol.com; rideon1@hotmail.com; voytillab@gmail.com; periwinklekog@yahoo.com
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

IMHO, anyone riding a Ridley Cross bike in the 3’s with a 20 second lead after a lap or two needs to upgrade.

Thomas Hoffman

IMHO, anyone riding a Ridley Cross bike in the 3¹s with a 20 second lead
after a lap or two needs to upgrade.

On 7/12/10 1:19 PM, "trevpratt@aol.com" wrote:

> if you don't loose for a while, you don't deserve to win.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Luciano bailey
> To: voytillab@gmail.com; periwinklekog@yahoo.com
> Cc: zak
> Sent: Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:15 pm
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers
>
> Having to see the race from behind builds character and a strong body if you
> let it.
> Nobody wants to suck but it is the path to the top.
>
> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:26:40 -0700
> From: voytillab@gmail.com
> To: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers
>
> Over the years I have learned if you are really into this racing thing then
> you will have to beat them sooner or later.
>
> So you might as well suck it up and grab their wheel and learn a couple
> things. I share the same thoughts Beth does. No pain no Gain.
>
> -Bryan
>
>
> The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with
> Hotmail. Get busy. =
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Thomas Hoffman
Real Estate Broker

RE/MAX equity group, inc.
Office Phone: 503-645-0638
Direct Phone: 503-495-5607
Fax: 503-495-5703
Email: thoffman@equitygroup.com

trevpratt@aol.com

if you don't loose for a while, you don't deserve to win.

-----Original Message-----
From: Luciano bailey
To: voytillab@gmail.com; periwinklekog@yahoo.com
Cc: zak
Sent: Fri, Jul 2, 2010 4:15 pm
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

Having to see the race from behind builds character and a strong body if you let it.
Nobody wants to suck but it is the path to the top.

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:26:40 -0700
From: voytillab@gmail.com
To: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

Over the years I have learned if you are really into this racing thing then you will have to beat them sooner or later.

So you might as well suck it up and grab their wheel and learn a couple things. I share the same thoughts Beth does. No pain no Gain.

-Bryan

The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.=

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Luciano bailey

Having to see the race from behind builds character and a strong body if you let it.
Nobody wants to suck but it is the path to the top.

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 10:26:40 -0700
From: voytillab@gmail.com
To: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

Over the years I have learned if you are really into this racing thing then you will have to beat them sooner or later.

So you might as well suck it up and grab their wheel and learn a couple things. I share the same thoughts Beth does. No pain no Gain.

-Bryan
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4

jeff@ultrafreaks.net

Geeze, I'm getting that same joy in Cat4/5 time trials this year without having
to level up. :-)

On July 2, 2010 at 1:13 PM beth h wrote:

> I appreciate this topic because of what I'm learning from the discussion. I
> really didn't know what "Sandbagging" was exactly, until now.
>
> As a second-year racer who probably catted up way too soon, I found myself
> having to pull to one side to either catch my breath or almost puke at the
> first two short-track races of this season. However, because I wanted to help
> promote a new category (that I had annoyingly lobbied for all winter), I felt
> it would've been bad form to stay in Beginners this year. So up to Womens' SS
> I went.
>
> Ouch. Yikes.
>
> Know what? I am having my head handed to me out there by stronger, faster
> riders. I am hanging on for dear life and suffering far more than I did last
> year.
>
> Know what else? There is something indescribable about racing with people who
> are so much stronger than you that you KNOW they could eat you alive. It
> forces you to figure out how to survive, and that in turn just might make you
> a better rider (at least a little smarter if not stronger).
>
> I hung on for four laps last week. Compared to everyone else's five or six
> it's no great shakes but geez, am I getting **schooled**.
> Even if it kills me, I cannot imagine catting down now. Because racing against
> people who are so much stronger than me is turning out to be good for me, on
> some level that may not become clear to me until the end of the series
>
> Anyone else want to try and describe the indescribable element here? I'd love
> to hear it.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Bryan Voytilla

Over the years I have learned if you are really into this racing thing then
you will have to beat them sooner or later.

So you might as well suck it up and grab their wheel and learn a couple
things. I share the same thoughts Beth does. No pain no Gain.

-Bryan

beth h

I appreciate this topic because of what I'm learning from the discussion. I really didn't know what "Sandbagging" was exactly, until now.

As a second-year racer who probably catted up way too soon, I found myself having to pull to one side to either catch my breath or almost puke at the first two short-track races of this season. However, because I wanted to help promote a new category (that I had annoyingly lobbied for all winter), I felt it would've been bad form to stay in Beginners this year. So up to Womens' SS I went.

Ouch. Yikes.

Know what? I am having my head handed to me out there by stronger, faster riders. I am hanging on for dear life and suffering far more than I did last year.

Know what else? There is something indescribable about racing with people who are so much stronger than you that you KNOW they could eat you alive. It forces you to figure out how to survive, and that in turn just might make you a better rider (at least a little smarter if not stronger).

I hung on for four laps last week. Compared to everyone else's five or six it's no great shakes but geez, am I getting **schooled**.
Even if it kills me, I cannot imagine catting down now. Because racing against people who are so much stronger than me is turning out to be good for me, on some level that may not become clear to me until the end of the series

Anyone else want to try and describe the indescribable element here? I'd love to hear it.

Ron and Dorothy Strasser

I love it when people race cross bikes at short track.... they stay exactly on the worn track because they cannot dare pass someone in the rough areas.... of course they then kill me when we reach a smooth flat area! Think of is as an early cross race when we have not had any rain with the added devilish element of the race course designer trying to make it a mountain bike course instead of cross course.... thus narrow areas, big bumps etc. Smiles all around. As for sandbaggers...all I know is the guy way out ahead on the beginner race this past Monday (not sure of age) was not having a race. I hope he moves to cat 2 so he gets to have more fun racing other riders. I agree with Tim.... the powers that be (at times even the obra chat) usually work the sandbagger thing out....especially really tall, very familiar faced people in white skinsuits show up killing it in the beginner cat. Unless you are sure you are in good condition for racing and have pretty good technical riding skills, I would say try one beginner race to start. If you are a C or B cross racer... go cat 2. You can always find out if you are passing people or being passed within 2-3 laps.
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Devin Flynn
Cc: OBRA list list
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

How do able is it with a cross bike? I'm without an mtb this year, but I like the idea of getting my fat butt out there. Well, it's not my butt that fat, more like my gut.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 1, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Ben Fischler wrote:

I agree. I'm torn. Haven't raced the short track yet; maybe Monday I think. I've been riding and racing MTB's on and off since the mid 80's. I don't really train and I'm not particularly fast though, but I would really like to ride for more then 25mins. That said, I get the impression the Cat2 peeps are out for blood.

Do I race beginner? Or Cat2 to get the longer race? I just like riding my bike fast. It's fun. =)

[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]

On Jul 1, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Adrian Richardson wrote:

I agree with this comment. I also want to add that sandbagging might be a little common here than anywhere else at the moment. Short track just started and people might not know how they fare. i always would recommend someone (even if i feel that they are faster) to start a category lower and make their decision to upgrade when comfortable.

I would see this to be a problem if its later in the season, and a long term statistic proves it.

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Steven Beardsley wrote:

Isn't mountain bike upgrade stuff self selecting?

Complaining about people being too fast for you to upgrade so you can race
against faster people does not really make too much sense.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Suzie Smith
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:17 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

Waz up with the fast male and female racers from last year who downgraded
themselves to win short track prizes in the lower cats? Sandvbaggers suck.
You know who you are and you need to go back where you came from. Some of us
are working to upgrade and U R in the way - get a life. -Team Real
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Devin Flynn

How do able is it with a cross bike? I'm without an mtb this year, but
I like the idea of getting my fat butt out there. Well, it's not my
butt that fat, more like my gut.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 1, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Ben Fischler
wrote:

> I agree. I'm torn. Haven't raced the short track yet; maybe Monday
> I think. I've been riding and racing MTB's on and off since the mid
> 80's. I don't really train and I'm not particularly fast though,
> but I would really like to ride for more then 25mins. That said, I
> get the impression the Cat2 peeps are out for blood.
>
> Do I race beginner? Or Cat2 to get the longer race? I just like
> riding my bike fast. It's fun. =)
>
> [ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]
>
>
>
> On Jul 1, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Adrian Richardson wrote:
>
>> I agree with this comment. I also want to add that sandbagging
>> might be a little common here than anywhere else at the moment.
>> Short track just started and people might not know how they fare. i
>> always would recommend someone (even if i feel that they are
>> faster) to start a category lower and make their decision to
>> upgrade when comfortable.
>>
>> I would see this to be a problem if its later in the season, and a
>> long term statistic proves it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Steven Beardsley
>> wrote:
>> Isn't mountain bike upgrade stuff self selecting?
>>
>> Complaining about people being too fast for you to upgrade so you
>> can race
>> against faster people does not really make too much sense.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-
>> bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Suzie Smith
>> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:17 AM
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers
>>
>> Waz up with the fast male and female racers from last year who
>> downgraded
>> themselves to win short track prizes in the lower cats?
>> Sandvbaggers suck.
>> You know who you are and you need to go back where you came from.
>> Some of us
>> are working to upgrade and U R in the way - get a life. -Team Real
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ben Fischler

I agree. I'm torn. Haven't raced the short track yet; maybe Monday I think. I've been riding and racing MTB's on and off since the mid 80's. I don't really train and I'm not particularly fast though, but I would really like to ride for more then 25mins. That said, I get the impression the Cat2 peeps are out for blood.

Do I race beginner? Or Cat2 to get the longer race? I just like riding my bike fast. It's fun. =)

[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]

On Jul 1, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Adrian Richardson wrote:

> I agree with this comment. I also want to add that sandbagging might be a little common here than anywhere else at the moment. Short track just started and people might not know how they fare. i always would recommend someone (even if i feel that they are faster) to start a category lower and make their decision to upgrade when comfortable.
>
> I would see this to be a problem if its later in the season, and a long term statistic proves it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Steven Beardsley wrote:
> Isn't mountain bike upgrade stuff self selecting?
>
> Complaining about people being too fast for you to upgrade so you can race
> against faster people does not really make too much sense.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Suzie Smith
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:17 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers
>
> Waz up with the fast male and female racers from last year who downgraded
> themselves to win short track prizes in the lower cats? Sandvbaggers suck.
> You know who you are and you need to go back where you came from. Some of us
> are working to upgrade and U R in the way - get a life. -Team Real
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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Tim Schauer

Agreed. Complaining about racing against faster people so you can upgrade
does seem off target.

But I don't think we should under value someone's sincere desire to "get a
win" before upgrading. For some people, opportunities to "get a win" come
along very rarely. Some only get one or two ever, some probably never.
I've heard many people say..."I don't want to upgrade until I've got at
least one win". There is nothing wrong with that and we should keep the
lower categories open of sandbaggers to give everyone their opportunity if
they've earned it. If we are talking about Sandbagger in the upper cats,
this perspective doesn't hold water.

However, as a recovering MTB sandbagger myself....if the overriding
perspective is that want to grow our sport and encourage people to upgrade
so that new comers feel like they don't have compete against "veteran
novice" racers, then I'm all for sweeping sandbaggers up and out. Now that
Short Track is its own BAR category and drawing larger and larger crowds I
think it isn't a bad thing to police it a little closer. I can say from
personal experience that at the PIR STX events Kris Schamp has done nice
job historically of quietly asking rider to move up and out of cats they
are "over qualified" for. If people downgrade a cat over last year and
then top 5 a result in the lower cat they should bounce back up promptly.
Now if the quiet sideline method doesn't work....

Another publicly effective method is Luciano's loud speaker commentating
at the PIR Short Track...when a rider is just killing his or her field
during the race...Luciano calls it as he sees it...saying things like
"Ah..this looks like this should be his last week in this race..." or "I
think this guy knows he is racing in the wrong Cat"... or my favorite from
a few years ago.."Tim Schauer? What is Tim Schauer doing racing the
beginner category? Look people, you know a guy doesn't belong in the
beginner category when he is racing in an all white skinsuit! Come on,
Schauer. You should know better..." :-) I deserved it and it worked...

-Tim Schauer

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Steven Beardsley
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 11:25 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

Isn't mountain bike upgrade stuff self selecting?

Complaining about people being too fast for you to upgrade so you can race
against faster people does not really make too much sense.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Suzie Smith
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:17 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

Waz up with the fast male and female racers from last year who downgraded
themselves to win short track prizes in the lower cats? Sandvbaggers suck.
You know who you are and you need to go back where you came from. Some of
us
are working to upgrade and U R in the way - get a life. -Team Real
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Adrian Richardson

I agree with this comment. I also want to add that sandbagging might be a
little common here than anywhere else at the moment. Short track just
started and people might not know how they fare. i always would recommend
someone (even if i feel that they are faster) to start a category lower and
make their decision to upgrade when comfortable.

I would see this to be a problem if its later in the season, and a long term
statistic proves it.

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Steven Beardsley wrote:

> Isn't mountain bike upgrade stuff self selecting?
>
> Complaining about people being too fast for you to upgrade so you can race
> against faster people does not really make too much sense.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Suzie Smith
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:17 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers
>
> Waz up with the fast male and female racers from last year who downgraded
> themselves to win short track prizes in the lower cats? Sandvbaggers suck.
> You know who you are and you need to go back where you came from. Some of
> us
> are working to upgrade and U R in the way - get a life. -Team Real
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Steven Beardsley

Isn't mountain bike upgrade stuff self selecting?

Complaining about people being too fast for you to upgrade so you can race
against faster people does not really make too much sense.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Suzie Smith
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:17 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Short Track Sandbaggers

Waz up with the fast male and female racers from last year who downgraded
themselves to win short track prizes in the lower cats? Sandvbaggers suck.
You know who you are and you need to go back where you came from. Some of us
are working to upgrade and U R in the way - get a life. -Team Real
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Suzie Smith

Waz up with the fast male and female racers from last year who downgraded themselves to win short track prizes in the lower cats? Sandvbaggers suck. You know who you are and you need to go back where you came from. Some of us are working to upgrade and U R in the way - get a life. -Team Real

Mike Szwaya

My connection to the internets is slow and I don't have 8 hours to waste carefully analyzing this years and last years results. Could you save us all some time and provide some names? That would be grand. Thanks.

Suzie Smith

Waz up with the fast male and female racers from last year who downgraded themselves to win short track prizes in the lower cats? Sandvbaggers suck. You know who you are and you need to go back where you came from. Some of us are working to upgrade and U R in the way - get a life. -Team Real