Andy Kaylor

I don't think you comprehend just how slow some of us are. I'd need about 15 full-time jobs and 38 children just to be competitive in Cat 3. :-D

But seriously (kind of), it seems to me that about 20% of the riders in races like STXC and CX are hard core about winning, 20% are really slow and know they'll never do well, and 60% are working hard for positions in the middle. So, in any given category, there will be 20% of the people who are much better than the other 80% and could finish upper-middle of the pack if they upgraded (except at the top) and 20% who would still be in the bottom if they downgraded (except at the bottom). This is just what racing categories look like, I think.

Consider the TdF. Contador and Schleck are obviously sandbaggers. Now, name a rider on the Cofidis Le Credit En Ligne team.

-Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Fitzgerald
To: obra@list.obra.org e-mail
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 2:19 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved
Clearly the only fair way to do races is to eliminate all categories and
score based on handicaps like golf or sailing. For example, you add or
subtract from your finishing time based on the following:
Carbon rims = + 20 seconds
Team Kit = + 10 seconds
Street Clothes = - 10 seconds
Single = + 5 seconds
Dating another cyclist = + 5 seconds
College Student = + 5 seconds
Age under 23 = -1 second per year
Age over 32 = - 1 second per year
Kids = - 10 seconds per child (under 12)
Years Racing = + 1 second per year
PHD or Law Degree = + 20 seconds
Full time job = -10 seconds (per full time job)
Weight = - 1 second for every pound over 190 (men), -1 second for every
pound over 140 (women). Subject to BMI corrections.
Calf Tattoos = + 15 seconds
Shaved legs = + 30 seconds
Value of bike = + 1 second per $100 of value
Inebriation = -3 seconds per beer or equivalent
The list could go on and on. We could quantify every possible variable
that makes someone faster or slower, put it into a database linked to
each rider, and OBRA could become the first 100% fair bike racing state
in the nation!
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ron and Dorothy Strasser

These are excellent ideas! I have to say even though each has a certain degree of entertainment value. The canned food would go a long way toward projecting a more positive image of "bike riders" to the general public. It would be easy to store as the season progressed and create potential for a huge media event when donation takes place. You could refine it with the use of #10 cans as are used in commercial or agency cafeteria settings (one #10 can would equal 10 12 or 16oz cans for example). This is funny and sounds so painful.
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Evan Plews
To: OBRA
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved

Too costly... just do canned food and donate it at the end of the season!

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:55:56 -0700
> From: kenji@obra.org
> To: mike.murray@obra.org
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved
>
> I completely disagree with the system. You have it all wrong.
>
> Time handicaps would be a pain in the rear. The proper handicap would
> be the use of building materials.
>
>
> Carbon rims = + 10 bricks in a backpack
> Team Kit = +2 gallons of paint
> Street Clothes = +1 brick
> Single = +2 bricks
> Dating another cyclist = +1 bag of concrete
> College Student = +8 bricks
> Age under 23 = +1 brick per year under 23
> Age over 32 = 2 bungee cords (to be attached to faster cyclists)
> Kids = 0 bricks
> Years Racing = + .5 bricks per year over 2
> Pro categorization= +1 pallet of pavers
> PHD or Law Degree = +5 bags of nails
> Full time job = 2 bricks
> Weight = +2 4x4x8's for hillclimbers.
> Calf Tattoos = +30 bricks hauled in a burley
> Shaved legs = +1 brick
> Value of bike = +3 12" pieces of rebar per $100 of value.
> Inebriation = +2 bags of fertilizer for every beer.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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johnfforbes@comcast.net

Now we are getting somewhere!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "T. Kenji Sugahara"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:55:56
To:
Cc: remailer, OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved

I completely disagree with the system. You have it all wrong.

Time handicaps would be a pain in the rear. The proper handicap would
be the use of building materials.

Carbon rims = + 10 bricks in a backpack
Team Kit = +2 gallons of paint
Street Clothes = +1 brick
Single = +2 bricks
Dating another cyclist = +1 bag of concrete
College Student = +8 bricks
Age under 23 = +1 brick per year under 23
Age over 32 = 2 bungee cords (to be attached to faster cyclists)
Kids = 0 bricks
Years Racing = + .5 bricks per year over 2
Pro categorization= +1 pallet of pavers
PHD or Law Degree = +5 bags of nails
Full time job = 2 bricks
Weight = +2 4x4x8's for hillclimbers.
Calf Tattoos = +30 bricks hauled in a burley
Shaved legs = +1 brick
Value of bike = +3 12" pieces of rebar per $100 of value.
Inebriation = +2 bags of fertilizer for every beer.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Tim Schauer

For Short Track…

1. The entry fee could be less for the upper categories….encouraging
people to move up….just a thought. It looks like the lower categories are
the larger ones. Might improve the revenue for promoters.

2. Another idea would be to do a call up in the beginner categories
for the top 5, and then invite everyone else to stage in front…or…

3. They can trade that for a 2 second head start in their first
upgrade race…if they move out of the beginner

This should regularly wash out any beginner category true sandbaggers…

*From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
Behalf Of *Evan Plews
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 13, 2010 3:05 PM
*To:* OBRA
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved

Too costly... just do canned food and donate it at the end of the season!

Evan Plews

www.evanplews.com

503-949-4879

> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:55:56 -0700
> From: kenji@obra.org
> To: mike.murray@obra.org
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved
>
> I completely disagree with the system. You have it all wrong.
>
> Time handicaps would be a pain in the rear. The proper handicap would
> be the use of building materials.
>
>
> Carbon rims = + 10 bricks in a backpack
> Team Kit = +2 gallons of paint
> Street Clothes = +1 brick
> Single = +2 bricks
> Dating another cyclist = +1 bag of concrete
> College Student = +8 bricks
> Age under 23 = +1 brick per year under 23
> Age over 32 = 2 bungee cords (to be attached to faster cyclists)
> Kids = 0 bricks
> Years Racing = + .5 bricks per year over 2
> Pro categorization= +1 pallet of pavers
> PHD or Law Degree = +5 bags of nails
> Full time job = 2 bricks
> Weight = +2 4x4x8's for hillclimbers.
> Calf Tattoos = +30 bricks hauled in a burley
> Shaved legs = +1 brick
> Value of bike = +3 12" pieces of rebar per $100 of value.
> Inebriation = +2 bags of fertilizer for every beer.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
------------------------------

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Evan Plews

Too costly... just do canned food and donate it at the end of the season!

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:55:56 -0700
> From: kenji@obra.org
> To: mike.murray@obra.org
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved
>
> I completely disagree with the system. You have it all wrong.
>
> Time handicaps would be a pain in the rear. The proper handicap would
> be the use of building materials.
>
>
> Carbon rims = + 10 bricks in a backpack
> Team Kit = +2 gallons of paint
> Street Clothes = +1 brick
> Single = +2 bricks
> Dating another cyclist = +1 bag of concrete
> College Student = +8 bricks
> Age under 23 = +1 brick per year under 23
> Age over 32 = 2 bungee cords (to be attached to faster cyclists)
> Kids = 0 bricks
> Years Racing = + .5 bricks per year over 2
> Pro categorization= +1 pallet of pavers
> PHD or Law Degree = +5 bags of nails
> Full time job = 2 bricks
> Weight = +2 4x4x8's for hillclimbers.
> Calf Tattoos = +30 bricks hauled in a burley
> Shaved legs = +1 brick
> Value of bike = +3 12" pieces of rebar per $100 of value.
> Inebriation = +2 bags of fertilizer for every beer.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. See how.
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T. Kenji Sugahara

I completely disagree with the system. You have it all wrong.

Time handicaps would be a pain in the rear. The proper handicap would
be the use of building materials.

Carbon rims = + 10 bricks in a backpack
Team Kit = +2 gallons of paint
Street Clothes = +1 brick
Single = +2 bricks
Dating another cyclist = +1 bag of concrete
College Student = +8 bricks
Age under 23 = +1 brick per year under 23
Age over 32 = 2 bungee cords (to be attached to faster cyclists)
Kids = 0 bricks
Years Racing = + .5 bricks per year over 2
Pro categorization= +1 pallet of pavers
PHD or Law Degree = +5 bags of nails
Full time job = 2 bricks
Weight = +2 4x4x8's for hillclimbers.
Calf Tattoos = +30 bricks hauled in a burley
Shaved legs = +1 brick
Value of bike = +3 12" pieces of rebar per $100 of value.
Inebriation = +2 bags of fertilizer for every beer.

Rick Johnson

Wouldn't it be ironic if after all that correcting everyone had the same
time!
:-D

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

Stephen Fitzgerald wrote:
> Clearly the only fair way to do races is to eliminate all categories
> and score based on handicaps like golf or sailing. For example, you
> add or subtract from your finishing time based on the following:
>
> Carbon rims = + 20 seconds
> Team Kit = + 10 seconds
> Street Clothes = - 10 seconds
> Single = + 5 seconds
> Dating another cyclist = + 5 seconds
> College Student = + 5 seconds
> Age under 23 = -1 second per year
> Age over 32 = - 1 second per year
> Kids = - 10 seconds per child (under 12)
> Years Racing = + 1 second per year
> PHD or Law Degree = + 20 seconds
> Full time job = -10 seconds (per full time job)
> Weight = - 1 second for every pound over 190 (men), -1 second for
> every pound over 140 (women). Subject to BMI corrections.
> Calf Tattoos = + 15 seconds
> Shaved legs = + 30 seconds
> Value of bike = + 1 second per $100 of value
> Inebriation = -3 seconds per beer or equivalent
>
> The list could go on and on. We could quantify every possible variable
> that makes someone faster or slower, put it into a database linked to
> each rider, and OBRA could become the first 100% fair bike racing
> state in the nation!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

Actually many people have advocated for a handicap system where your handicap before a race would be modified by your placing and by the handicaps of the other riders in the field. This would be a far better system but the cost, in terms of data entry and book keeping, probably far exceeds the benefit. Do not expect to see this system at a bike race near you soon.

Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Fitzgerald
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 14:19:42
To: obra@list.obra.org e-mail
Subject: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved

Clearly the only fair way to do races is to eliminate all categories and
score based on handicaps like golf or sailing. For example, you add or
subtract from your finishing time based on the following:

Carbon rims = + 20 seconds
Team Kit = + 10 seconds
Street Clothes = - 10 seconds
Single = + 5 seconds
Dating another cyclist = + 5 seconds
College Student = + 5 seconds
Age under 23 = -1 second per year
Age over 32 = - 1 second per year
Kids = - 10 seconds per child (under 12)
Years Racing = + 1 second per year
PHD or Law Degree = + 20 seconds
Full time job = -10 seconds (per full time job)
Weight = - 1 second for every pound over 190 (men), -1 second for every
pound over 140 (women). Subject to BMI corrections.
Calf Tattoos = + 15 seconds
Shaved legs = + 30 seconds
Value of bike = + 1 second per $100 of value
Inebriation = -3 seconds per beer or equivalent

The list could go on and on. We could quantify every possible variable
that makes someone faster or slower, put it into a database linked to
each rider, and OBRA could become the first 100% fair bike racing state
in the nation!

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ken MTBDEMON

Now this idea rocks!!! Where is cobra Kai when you need him??? (of her)
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Fitzgerald
To: obra@list.obra.org e-mail
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2010 2:19 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] sandbaggers in STXC -solved

Clearly the only fair way to do races is to eliminate all categories and
score based on handicaps like golf or sailing. For example, you add or
subtract from your finishing time based on the following:

Carbon rims = + 20 seconds
Team Kit = + 10 seconds
Street Clothes = - 10 seconds
Single = + 5 seconds
Dating another cyclist = + 5 seconds
College Student = + 5 seconds
Age under 23 = -1 second per year
Age over 32 = - 1 second per year
Kids = - 10 seconds per child (under 12)
Years Racing = + 1 second per year
PHD or Law Degree = + 20 seconds
Full time job = -10 seconds (per full time job)
Weight = - 1 second for every pound over 190 (men), -1 second for every
pound over 140 (women). Subject to BMI corrections.
Calf Tattoos = + 15 seconds
Shaved legs = + 30 seconds
Value of bike = + 1 second per $100 of value
Inebriation = -3 seconds per beer or equivalent

The list could go on and on. We could quantify every possible variable
that makes someone faster or slower, put it into a database linked to
each rider, and OBRA could become the first 100% fair bike racing state
in the nation!

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Stephen Fitzgerald

Clearly the only fair way to do races is to eliminate all categories and
score based on handicaps like golf or sailing. For example, you add or
subtract from your finishing time based on the following:

Carbon rims = + 20 seconds
Team Kit = + 10 seconds
Street Clothes = - 10 seconds
Single = + 5 seconds
Dating another cyclist = + 5 seconds
College Student = + 5 seconds
Age under 23 = -1 second per year
Age over 32 = - 1 second per year
Kids = - 10 seconds per child (under 12)
Years Racing = + 1 second per year
PHD or Law Degree = + 20 seconds
Full time job = -10 seconds (per full time job)
Weight = - 1 second for every pound over 190 (men), -1 second for every
pound over 140 (women). Subject to BMI corrections.
Calf Tattoos = + 15 seconds
Shaved legs = + 30 seconds
Value of bike = + 1 second per $100 of value
Inebriation = -3 seconds per beer or equivalent

The list could go on and on. We could quantify every possible variable
that makes someone faster or slower, put it into a database linked to
each rider, and OBRA could become the first 100% fair bike racing state
in the nation!