Joshua Hunt

That wasn't a Texas joke, it was part of a larger G.W. Bush joke. Too soon?
For the record, there isn't an anti-Texan bone in my body. My two favorite
ex boyfriends were both born & raised there.

"The stars at night, are big and bright..."

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Alexander Clemens wrote:

> "You're not from Texas by any chance, are you?"
>
> No, that would be me and I only kick ass in a figurative sense.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Joshua Hunt wrote:
>
>> Okay, Frank Castle. Thanks for keeping the streets safe & imposing your
>> will on the world by whatever means necessary. I'm sure nothing bad will
>> ever come from attitudes like yours. I mean, it's not like anything bad has
>> ever come to the world because of one American's relentless pursuit of his
>> own sense of macho justice at all costs. You're not from Texas by any
>> chance, are you?
>> Use your brain, not your feelings, my friend. You broke the law. Those
>> kids should maybe be in jail, depending on whether or not the can hit you.
>> You should definitely be in jail. You chased them down & damaged their
>> property, and possibly hurt people in the car. More importantly, you could
>> have caused them to hit someone with their car while in unnecessary pursuit
>> of them. If you only wanted justice, you could have taken the license plate
>> & reported the incident. It sounds to me like they got your testosterone up
>> & you wanted to break stuff. It sounds to me like you wanted revenge, pure
>> and simple.
>> I'm also really confused by all of the irrelevant & aggrandizing
>> biographical information you've included. If you want to impress people with
>> your heroism, put on a 'TapOut' T-shirt & go spin these yarns down at the
>> local McMenimans. I'm sure people there will be thrilled to here the
>> Seagalian tales of you on the prowl for 'justice', taking out your male ego
>> on anyone that you feel deserves it.
>> I suggest you trade in one of those brass balls for a brain, and the other
>> one for some self esteem so that you don't have to endanger the rest of us
>> by trying to prove to the world what a tough guy you are.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barber wrote:
>>
>>> This is the last mail I will send on the topic, but I'm suprised by the
>>> public criticism, and yet private support for my actions. First there is a
>>> huge difference between stupidity, and outright maliciousness. I've been
>>> nice and gentle, to the motorists who have either hit nor nearly hit me,
>>> giving reminders and taking down insurance information.
>>>
>>> However I my right side was covered with gauze bandages and road rash,
>>> and I was slowly minding my own business on the sidewalk, as these 4 kids
>>> decided to throw an mostly full 18oz PBR at me while cursing. I did have a
>>> personal vested interest, in trying to get these kids arrested, or punish
>>> them for their misdeeds. But being raised as an orthodox jew, I learned to
>>> stand up for what is right, even when its not the easy way. Otherwise
>>> without fear of reprocussion, they will continue to act in these ways, and
>>> most people will be too apathetic or scared to do anything to stop them. In
>>> my culture a mensch is a person who works hard, gives back to his community,
>>> and stands up for what is right.
>>>
>>>
>>> Some more examples of heroism I've had this year:
>>> I Scared off a man who screamed at and beat his girlfriend in public. I
>>> forced the city of portland to audit the speed zone camera's, that were
>>> fining people for the wrong speed limits, making 100's of thousands of
>>> dollars over the years. And a couple guys on the yellow line, had a romantic
>>> spat on the max, that turned into a brawl. The guy adjacent to me and my ex
>>> girlfriend, pulled out a gun and pointed it at the other, and threatened to
>>> shoot. So I grabbed his wrist and hand, forcing it up and into the railing,
>>> forcing him to drop it.
>>>
>>> I may not be the best or greatest at what I do, but at least I'm a
>>> mensch, and one with a pair of brass balls.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Rick Johnson

Dude, that is some seriously impressive trollwork. Where did you get
the inspiration for "Benjamin the militant Jewish vigilante" character?
That rocks!

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

Liberal intercourse - founding father approved since 1796

On 8/28/2010 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barber wrote:
> This is the last mail I will send on the topic, but I'm suprised by the public criticism, and yet private support for my actions. First there is a huge difference between stupidity, and outright maliciousness. I've been nice and gentle, to the motorists who have either hit nor nearly hit me, giving reminders and taking down insurance information.
>
> However I my right side was covered with gauze bandages and road rash, and I was slowly minding my own business on the sidewalk, as these 4 kids decided to throw an mostly full 18oz PBR at me while cursing. I did have a personal vested interest, in trying to get these kids arrested, or punish them for their misdeeds. But being raised as an orthodox jew, I learned to stand up for what is right, even when its not the easy way. Otherwise without fear of reprocussion, they will continue to act in these ways, and most people will be too apathetic or scared to do anything to stop them. In my culture a mensch is a person who works hard, gives back to his community, and stands up for what is right.
>
>
> Some more examples of heroism I've had this year:
> I Scared off a man who screamed at and beat his girlfriend in public. I forced the city of portland to audit the speed zone camera's, that were fining people for the wrong speed limits, making 100's of thousands of dollars over the years. And a couple guys on the yellow line, had a romantic spat on the max, that turned into a brawl. The guy adjacent to me and my ex girlfriend, pulled out a gun and pointed it at the other, and threatened to shoot. So I grabbed his wrist and hand, forcing it up and into the railing, forcing him to drop it.
>
> I may not be the best or greatest at what I do, but at least I'm a mensch, and one with a pair of brass balls.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Alexander Clemens

"You're not from Texas by any chance, are you?"

No, that would be me and I only kick ass in a figurative sense.

Thanks,

Alex

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Joshua Hunt wrote:

> Okay, Frank Castle. Thanks for keeping the streets safe & imposing your
> will on the world by whatever means necessary. I'm sure nothing bad will
> ever come from attitudes like yours. I mean, it's not like anything bad has
> ever come to the world because of one American's relentless pursuit of his
> own sense of macho justice at all costs. You're not from Texas by any
> chance, are you?
> Use your brain, not your feelings, my friend. You broke the law. Those kids
> should maybe be in jail, depending on whether or not the can hit you. You
> should definitely be in jail. You chased them down & damaged their property,
> and possibly hurt people in the car. More importantly, you could have caused
> them to hit someone with their car while in unnecessary pursuit of them. If
> you only wanted justice, you could have taken the license plate & reported
> the incident. It sounds to me like they got your testosterone up & you
> wanted to break stuff. It sounds to me like you wanted revenge, pure and
> simple.
> I'm also really confused by all of the irrelevant & aggrandizing
> biographical information you've included. If you want to impress people with
> your heroism, put on a 'TapOut' T-shirt & go spin these yarns down at the
> local McMenimans. I'm sure people there will be thrilled to here the
> Seagalian tales of you on the prowl for 'justice', taking out your male ego
> on anyone that you feel deserves it.
> I suggest you trade in one of those brass balls for a brain, and the other
> one for some self esteem so that you don't have to endanger the rest of us
> by trying to prove to the world what a tough guy you are.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barber wrote:
>
>> This is the last mail I will send on the topic, but I'm suprised by the
>> public criticism, and yet private support for my actions. First there is a
>> huge difference between stupidity, and outright maliciousness. I've been
>> nice and gentle, to the motorists who have either hit nor nearly hit me,
>> giving reminders and taking down insurance information.
>>
>> However I my right side was covered with gauze bandages and road rash, and
>> I was slowly minding my own business on the sidewalk, as these 4 kids
>> decided to throw an mostly full 18oz PBR at me while cursing. I did have a
>> personal vested interest, in trying to get these kids arrested, or punish
>> them for their misdeeds. But being raised as an orthodox jew, I learned to
>> stand up for what is right, even when its not the easy way. Otherwise
>> without fear of reprocussion, they will continue to act in these ways, and
>> most people will be too apathetic or scared to do anything to stop them. In
>> my culture a mensch is a person who works hard, gives back to his community,
>> and stands up for what is right.
>>
>>
>> Some more examples of heroism I've had this year:
>> I Scared off a man who screamed at and beat his girlfriend in public. I
>> forced the city of portland to audit the speed zone camera's, that were
>> fining people for the wrong speed limits, making 100's of thousands of
>> dollars over the years. And a couple guys on the yellow line, had a romantic
>> spat on the max, that turned into a brawl. The guy adjacent to me and my ex
>> girlfriend, pulled out a gun and pointed it at the other, and threatened to
>> shoot. So I grabbed his wrist and hand, forcing it up and into the railing,
>> forcing him to drop it.
>>
>> I may not be the best or greatest at what I do, but at least I'm a mensch,
>> and one with a pair of brass balls.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Mike Murray

http://www.jewishealing.com/theartofthemensch.html

Doesn't say much about kicking bad guys butts.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

lisa graham

A true mensch doesnt need to brag about the mensch like things he does. . . . . . Just saying

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 17:22:58 -0700
From: xgaywadx@gmail.com
To: barberb@pdx.edu
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Bikes v. Cars

Okay, Frank Castle. Thanks for keeping the streets safe & imposing your will on the world by whatever means necessary. I'm sure nothing bad will ever come from attitudes like yours. I mean, it's not like anything bad has ever come to the world because of one American's relentless pursuit of his own sense of macho justice at all costs. You're not from Texas by any chance, are you?

Use your brain, not your feelings, my friend. You broke the law. Those kids should maybe be in jail, depending on whether or not the can hit you. You should definitely be in jail. You chased them down & damaged their property, and possibly hurt people in the car. More importantly, you could have caused them to hit someone with their car while in unnecessary pursuit of them. If you only wanted justice, you could have taken the license plate & reported the incident. It sounds to me like they got your testosterone up & you wanted to break stuff. It sounds to me like you wanted revenge, pure and simple.

I'm also really confused by all of the irrelevant & aggrandizing biographical information you've included. If you want to impress people with your heroism, put on a 'TapOut' T-shirt & go spin these yarns down at the local McMenimans. I'm sure people there will be thrilled to here the Seagalian tales of you on the prowl for 'justice', taking out your male ego on anyone that you feel deserves it.

I suggest you trade in one of those brass balls for a brain, and the other one for some self esteem so that you don't have to endanger the rest of us by trying to prove to the world what a tough guy you are.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barber wrote:

This is the last mail I will send on the topic, but I'm suprised by the public criticism, and yet private support for my actions. First there is a huge difference between stupidity, and outright maliciousness. I've been nice and gentle, to the motorists who have either hit nor nearly hit me, giving reminders and taking down insurance information.

However I my right side was covered with gauze bandages and road rash, and I was slowly minding my own business on the sidewalk, as these 4 kids decided to throw an mostly full 18oz PBR at me while cursing. I did have a personal vested interest, in trying to get these kids arrested, or punish them for their misdeeds. But being raised as an orthodox jew, I learned to stand up for what is right, even when its not the easy way. Otherwise without fear of reprocussion, they will continue to act in these ways, and most people will be too apathetic or scared to do anything to stop them. In my culture a mensch is a person who works hard, gives back to his community, and stands up for what is right.

Some more examples of heroism I've had this year:

I Scared off a man who screamed at and beat his girlfriend in public. I forced the city of portland to audit the speed zone camera's, that were fining people for the wrong speed limits, making 100's of thousands of dollars over the years. And a couple guys on the yellow line, had a romantic spat on the max, that turned into a brawl. The guy adjacent to me and my ex girlfriend, pulled out a gun and pointed it at the other, and threatened to shoot. So I grabbed his wrist and hand, forcing it up and into the railing, forcing him to drop it.

I may not be the best or greatest at what I do, but at least I'm a mensch, and one with a pair of brass balls.

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Joshua Hunt

Okay, Frank Castle. Thanks for keeping the streets safe & imposing your will
on the world by whatever means necessary. I'm sure nothing bad will ever
come from attitudes like yours. I mean, it's not like anything bad has ever
come to the world because of one American's relentless pursuit of his own
sense of macho justice at all costs. You're not from Texas by any chance,
are you?
Use your brain, not your feelings, my friend. You broke the law. Those kids
should maybe be in jail, depending on whether or not the can hit you. You
should definitely be in jail. You chased them down & damaged their property,
and possibly hurt people in the car. More importantly, you could have caused
them to hit someone with their car while in unnecessary pursuit of them. If
you only wanted justice, you could have taken the license plate & reported
the incident. It sounds to me like they got your testosterone up & you
wanted to break stuff. It sounds to me like you wanted revenge, pure and
simple.
I'm also really confused by all of the irrelevant & aggrandizing
biographical information you've included. If you want to impress people with
your heroism, put on a 'TapOut' T-shirt & go spin these yarns down at the
local McMenimans. I'm sure people there will be thrilled to here the
Seagalian tales of you on the prowl for 'justice', taking out your male ego
on anyone that you feel deserves it.
I suggest you trade in one of those brass balls for a brain, and the other
one for some self esteem so that you don't have to endanger the rest of us
by trying to prove to the world what a tough guy you are.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Benjamin Barber wrote:

> This is the last mail I will send on the topic, but I'm suprised by the
> public criticism, and yet private support for my actions. First there is a
> huge difference between stupidity, and outright maliciousness. I've been
> nice and gentle, to the motorists who have either hit nor nearly hit me,
> giving reminders and taking down insurance information.
>
> However I my right side was covered with gauze bandages and road rash, and
> I was slowly minding my own business on the sidewalk, as these 4 kids
> decided to throw an mostly full 18oz PBR at me while cursing. I did have a
> personal vested interest, in trying to get these kids arrested, or punish
> them for their misdeeds. But being raised as an orthodox jew, I learned to
> stand up for what is right, even when its not the easy way. Otherwise
> without fear of reprocussion, they will continue to act in these ways, and
> most people will be too apathetic or scared to do anything to stop them. In
> my culture a mensch is a person who works hard, gives back to his community,
> and stands up for what is right.
>
>
> Some more examples of heroism I've had this year:
> I Scared off a man who screamed at and beat his girlfriend in public. I
> forced the city of portland to audit the speed zone camera's, that were
> fining people for the wrong speed limits, making 100's of thousands of
> dollars over the years. And a couple guys on the yellow line, had a romantic
> spat on the max, that turned into a brawl. The guy adjacent to me and my ex
> girlfriend, pulled out a gun and pointed it at the other, and threatened to
> shoot. So I grabbed his wrist and hand, forcing it up and into the railing,
> forcing him to drop it.
>
> I may not be the best or greatest at what I do, but at least I'm a mensch,
> and one with a pair of brass balls.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Brooke Hoyer

I guess I'm disappointed that so many people approve of your behavior toward that car full of kids. What I would have preferred to read is that you chased them down, took a picture of the car with license plate, another picture of the driver, and a third of the person who threw the beer. BTW, good eye to see that is was an 18 oz PBR. I don't see much difference between you chasing down the car to either damage it or injure the driver and what a common street thug might do in a similar situation.
If you can't see the categorical difference between chasing down a car full of teens so that you can extract your own version of justice and the other circumstances you cited, then I wonder about your sense of right and wrong. In fact, I'd go as far to say that you were exhibiting qualities opposite of a mensch.
And to all you you who might have endorsed such behavior, I'm ashamed. You want to work on the problem? Open warfare against drivers is *not* going to get you where you want to go. All that's going to do is ratchet up the heat
Best wishes,Brooke Hoyer

> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:34:07 -0700
> From: barberb@pdx.edu
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Bikes v. Cars
>
> This is the last mail I will send on the topic, but I'm suprised by the public criticism, and yet private support for my actions. First there is a huge difference between stupidity, and outright maliciousness. I've been nice and gentle, to the motorists who have either hit nor nearly hit me, giving reminders and taking down insurance information.
>
> However I my right side was covered with gauze bandages and road rash, and I was slowly minding my own business on the sidewalk, as these 4 kids decided to throw an mostly full 18oz PBR at me while cursing. I did have a personal vested interest, in trying to get these kids arrested, or punish them for their misdeeds. But being raised as an orthodox jew, I learned to stand up for what is right, even when its not the easy way. Otherwise without fear of reprocussion, they will continue to act in these ways, and most people will be too apathetic or scared to do anything to stop them. In my culture a mensch is a person who works hard, gives back to his community, and stands up for what is right.
>
>
> Some more examples of heroism I've had this year:
> I Scared off a man who screamed at and beat his girlfriend in public. I forced the city of portland to audit the speed zone camera's, that were fining people for the wrong speed limits, making 100's of thousands of dollars over the years. And a couple guys on the yellow line, had a romantic spat on the max, that turned into a brawl. The guy adjacent to me and my ex girlfriend, pulled out a gun and pointed it at the other, and threatened to shoot. So I grabbed his wrist and hand, forcing it up and into the railing, forcing him to drop it.
>
> I may not be the best or greatest at what I do, but at least I'm a mensch, and one with a pair of brass balls.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Benjamin Barber

This is the last mail I will send on the topic, but I'm suprised by the public criticism, and yet private support for my actions. First there is a huge difference between stupidity, and outright maliciousness. I've been nice and gentle, to the motorists who have either hit nor nearly hit me, giving reminders and taking down insurance information.

However I my right side was covered with gauze bandages and road rash, and I was slowly minding my own business on the sidewalk, as these 4 kids decided to throw an mostly full 18oz PBR at me while cursing. I did have a personal vested interest, in trying to get these kids arrested, or punish them for their misdeeds. But being raised as an orthodox jew, I learned to stand up for what is right, even when its not the easy way. Otherwise without fear of reprocussion, they will continue to act in these ways, and most people will be too apathetic or scared to do anything to stop them. In my culture a mensch is a person who works hard, gives back to his community, and stands up for what is right.

Some more examples of heroism I've had this year:
I Scared off a man who screamed at and beat his girlfriend in public. I forced the city of portland to audit the speed zone camera's, that were fining people for the wrong speed limits, making 100's of thousands of dollars over the years. And a couple guys on the yellow line, had a romantic spat on the max, that turned into a brawl. The guy adjacent to me and my ex girlfriend, pulled out a gun and pointed it at the other, and threatened to shoot. So I grabbed his wrist and hand, forcing it up and into the railing, forcing him to drop it.

I may not be the best or greatest at what I do, but at least I'm a mensch, and one with a pair of brass balls.

Brooke Hoyer

I am reluctant to get into this quagmire buy am compelled nonetheless.

With apologies to the Yakima team, vigilante behavior is not the way to go. A few weeks ago, I was riding down a hill and made a left to an uphill. Of course I wanted to conserve momentum so I didn't touch my brakes. I exceeded the speed limit and didn't use the left turn lane (so as to increase my turn radius).

After making the turn, an oncoming minivan cut me off by making a left turn to a side street in front of me. When asked about this, he responded that he considered my left turn to be dangerous because of my high speed.

In other words, he was prepared to put my safety risk because he was enforcing his interpretation of traffic law.

I see this all the time on the road. People use their cars to impede others (cars, bikes, pedestrians) who they believe to have broken the "rules".

Is rather not encourage everyone to go around dispensing their own brand of justice.

On another note, I've found that it's hard to make yourself heard when yelling back at motorists. Lack of breath, wind noise, and doppler effect all conspire to distort your message. Our friend to the north and ex-pat Portland Tyler Stetson suggested an intriguing suggestion.

Just yell something random like "octopus".

> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 02:04:29 -0700
> From: barberb@pdx.edu
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Bikes v. Cars
>
> I understand that you deal with verbally abusive children on a regular basis, but that does not validate your opinion. For instance, I'm an older member of a 7 sibiling family, and have raised little ones myself. In fact I was coming back from dropping off lots of donations, to a childrens bike program, and have substantial injuries from a bike race.
>
> Generally speaking you have to use both the carrot and the stick, when trying to influence behavior. And when you commit vehicular assault, drink and drive, and perform a hit and run, you endanger the lives of other people, and are supposed to go to jail. And rules are made to be applied universally, to commit assault against someone, you accept that you can also be assaulted. To say that someone shouldn't be punished for reckless behavior from the ignorance of being a minor, means that nobody should be responsible for ignorant reckless behavior.
>
> Furthermore, its considered a virtue to have the courage to uphold justice, and to be able and willing to protect yourself and others. Who knows, this may have very well changed their behavior, and that of their social circle. Especially if they get arrested, or when their parents find the broken car, or when the they tell their friends about the incident. And that little amount of fear of punishment, could keep them from getting behind the wheel, and accidentally killing someone.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Joshua Hunt

It doesn't sound to me like you were so concerned about anyone else's well
being when you pursued these guys. It sounds a little bit like you were
concerned with your bruised ego, and making a point. You're making a lot of
assumptions about these guys being drunk drivers, first of all. But okay,
let's assume they were. You're saying the smart thing to do, in the interest
of 'courage & justice' is to pursue them, thus increasing the chances of
them running some innocent person over while you run them down & assault
them?
I'm surprised the police officer didn't arrest you.
I was the only queer kid at my small town High School (trust me, I looked),
and I had many beer bottles & cans thrown at my head from moving vehicles.
It sucks, and people who behave like that are obviously morons. Don't sink
to their level. Hopefully you're better than that.
I also have no idea what bike donations or 'substantial injuries from a bike
race' have to do with how you behaved. Unless your injuries include brain
damage.
Oh, and lastly, there is no such thing as 'bikes versus cars'. There are
morons & hot heads on all forms of transportation.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 2:04 AM, Benjamin Barber wrote:

> I understand that you deal with verbally abusive children on a regular
> basis, but that does not validate your opinion. For instance, I'm an older
> member of a 7 sibiling family, and have raised little ones myself. In fact I
> was coming back from dropping off lots of donations, to a childrens bike
> program, and have substantial injuries from a bike race.
>
> Generally speaking you have to use both the carrot and the stick, when
> trying to influence behavior. And when you commit vehicular assault, drink
> and drive, and perform a hit and run, you endanger the lives of other
> people, and are supposed to go to jail. And rules are made to be applied
> universally, to commit assault against someone, you accept that you can also
> be assaulted. To say that someone shouldn't be punished for reckless
> behavior from the ignorance of being a minor, means that nobody should be
> responsible for ignorant reckless behavior.
>
> Furthermore, its considered a virtue to have the courage to uphold justice,
> and to be able and willing to protect yourself and others. Who knows, this
> may have very well changed their behavior, and that of their social circle.
> Especially if they get arrested, or when their parents find the broken car,
> or when the they tell their friends about the incident. And that little
> amount of fear of punishment, could keep them from getting behind the wheel,
> and accidentally killing someone.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Benjamin Barber

I understand that you deal with verbally abusive children on a regular basis, but that does not validate your opinion. For instance, I'm an older member of a 7 sibiling family, and have raised little ones myself. In fact I was coming back from dropping off lots of donations, to a childrens bike program, and have substantial injuries from a bike race.

Generally speaking you have to use both the carrot and the stick, when trying to influence behavior. And when you commit vehicular assault, drink and drive, and perform a hit and run, you endanger the lives of other people, and are supposed to go to jail. And rules are made to be applied universally, to commit assault against someone, you accept that you can also be assaulted. To say that someone shouldn't be punished for reckless behavior from the ignorance of being a minor, means that nobody should be responsible for ignorant reckless behavior.

Furthermore, its considered a virtue to have the courage to uphold justice, and to be able and willing to protect yourself and others. Who knows, this may have very well changed their behavior, and that of their social circle. Especially if they get arrested, or when their parents find the broken car, or when the they tell their friends about the incident. And that little amount of fear of punishment, could keep them from getting behind the wheel, and accidentally killing someone.