OBRA: OBRA Chat: Radial Laced Wheels

mike.m-@obra.org

2002-07-22

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Larry,

Your note re: Jack Taylor is wildly inappropriate, not only in wording a

venue of posting but with regards to the information it contains. The lack

of warranty for radial lacing of wheels with many hubs is not even close to

new information and is something that you should have been aware of.

Despite the fact that the companies do not warranty hubs laced radial, many

people have been doing this for year and getting away with it however the

failure rate is higher than with tangentially laced wheels. The failure of

a radial laced wheel at the hub flange does not indicate that the wheel

building was substandard. A radial laced wheel is a specialty use item and

should not be expected to have the durability of a tangentially built wheel.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Larry Freimann [mailto:lfrei-@mindspring.com]

Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 18:49 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Radial Laced Wheels

I recently had a Campy Record low flange hub split at the flange knocking

out four spokes. Luckily this happened at a very slow speed. Called Campy

to see if the would warrant the hubs. They said they DO NOT warrant or

guarantee any radial laced hub front or back. Got pissed off and bought a

Dura Ace replacement. Guess what? They also do not warrant a radial

lacing. The wheelset was purchased at Mt. Tabor bike shop before it closed,

and I understand that the owner, Jack, did up a lot of these wheel sets, and

I recall seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a week ago.

If these would have split going down hill the consequences would not have

been pleasant. Hey Jack if you're out there YOUR WHEELS SUCK!!!

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

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<DIV><SPAN class=410411807-22072002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>Larry,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=410411807-22072002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=410411807-22072002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Your

note re: Jack Taylor is wildly inappropriate, not only in wording a venue of

posting but with regards to the information it contains. The lack of

warranty for radial lacing of wheels with many hubs is not even close to new

information and is something that you should have been aware of. Despite

the fact that the companies do not warranty hubs laced radial, many people have

been doing this for year and getting away with it however the failure rate is

higher than with tangentially laced wheels. The failure of a radial laced

wheel at the hub flange does not indicate that the wheel building was

substandard. A radial laced wheel is a specialty use item and should not

be expected to have the durability of a tangentially built

wheel.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<P><FONT size=2>Mike Murray </FONT></P>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Larry Freimann

[mailto:lfrei-@mindspring.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 19, 2002 18:49

PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] Radial Laced

Wheels<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I recently had a Campy Record low flange hub split

at the flange knocking out four spokes. Luckily this happened at a very

slow speed. Called Campy to see if the would warrant the hubs. They

said they DO NOT warrant or guarantee any radial laced hub front or back.

Got pissed off and bought a Dura Ace replacement. Guess what? They

also do not warrant a radial lacing. The wheelset was purchased at Mt.

Tabor bike shop before it closed, and I understand that the owner, Jack, did up

a lot of these wheel sets, and I recall seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a

week ago.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If these would have split going down hill the

consequences would not have been pleasant. Hey Jack if you're out there

YOUR WHEELS SUCK!!!</FONT></DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE>

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Jerry Powell

2002-07-20

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At 6:49 PM -0700 7/19/02, Larry Freimann wrote:

I recently had a Campy Record low flange hub split at the flange

knocking out four spokes. Luckily this happened at a very slow

speed. Called Campy to see if the would warrant the hubs. They

said they DO NOT warrant or guarantee any radial laced hub front or

back. Got pissed off and bought a Dura Ace replacement. Guess

what? They also do not warrant a radial lacing. The wheelset was

purchased at Mt. Tabor bike shop before it closed, and I understand

that the owner, Jack, did up a lot of these wheel sets, and I recall

seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a week ago.

If these would have split going down hill the consequences would not

have been pleasant. Hey Jack if you're out there YOUR WHEELS SUCK!!!

Larry, It seems pretty remarkable to me that after all the years

you've ben doing this sport that you are still clueless about

equipment warrenties when used to race, about hub flange strength

factors and about radial lacing. Warrenty? If you race it, there

isn't any... albeit some exceptionally good hearted dealers will

stick their necks out and offer one with no assurance that the

wholesaler or manufacturer will accept it back. There isn't any

"conventional" hub that will sustain a straight pull (radial) with

the same strength as a tangental pull (laced). That said, a radial

front wheel, properly maintained, is more than strong enough for any

stress that a rider, given that rider could ride a similar wheel

laced 2 or 3 crossed without it failing. The real issue is that if a

radial wheel goes out of true, or if even one spoke is improperly

tensioned, the wheel will quickly "untrue itself, and the stresses on

whichever spoke remains the tightest are geometrically higher than on

other spokes. The lesson is that if you ride radials, it's your

responsibility to maintain them. Don't blame Jack, he wasn't the one

who trashed your wheels. You were.

Jerry Powell

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<html><head><style type="text/css"></style><title>Re: [OBRA Chat] Radial Laced

Wheels</title></head><body>

<div>At 6:49 PM -0700 7/19/02, Larry Freimann wrote:</div>

<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">I recently

had a Campy Record low flange hub split at the flange knocking out

four spokes. Luckily this happened at a very slow speed.

Called Campy to see if the would warrant the hubs. They said

they DO NOT warrant or guarantee any radial laced hub front or back.

Got pissed off and bought a Dura Ace replacement. Guess what?

They also do not warrant a radial lacing. The wheelset was

purchased at Mt. Tabor bike shop before it closed, and I understand

that the owner, Jack, did up a lot of these wheel sets, and I recall

seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a week ago.</font></blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite> </blockquote>

<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">If these

would have split going down hill the consequences would not have been

pleasant. Hey Jack if you're out there YOUR WHEELS

SUCK!!!</font></blockquote>

<div><tt><br></tt></div>

<div><tt>Larry, It seems pretty remarkable to me that after all the

years you've ben doing this sport that you are still clueless about

equipment warrenties when used to race, about hub flange strength

factors and about radial lacing. Warrenty? If you race it, there

isn't any... albeit some exceptionally good hearted dealers will stick

their necks out and offer one with no assurance that the wholesaler or

manufacturer will accept it back. There isn't any

"conventional" hub that will sustain a straight pull

(radial) with the same strength as a tangental pull (laced).

That said, a radial front wheel, properly maintained, is more than

strong enough for any stress that a rider, given that rider could ride

a similar wheel laced 2 or 3 crossed without it failing. The

real issue is that if a radial wheel goes out of true, or if even one

spoke is improperly tensioned, the wheel will quickly "untrue

itself, and the stresses on whichever spoke remains the tightest are

geometrically higher than on other spokes. The lesson is that if

you ride radials, it's your responsibility to maintain them.

Don't blame Jack, he wasn't the one who trashed your wheels. You

were.</tt></div>

<div><tt><br></tt></div>

<div><tt>Jerry Powell</tt></div>

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zrk-@aol.com

2002-07-20

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A couple years ago, I had Sellwood Cycle set up a ti frame for racing. I

brought up the subject of radial lacing, which was discouraged in favor of

36 hole Dura Ace hubs, 3x laced to Open Sup rims. The reasons were, 1st, I'm

heavier than the average(everybody), I'm beginning(learning), and... its

RACING. The wisdom of this became apparent when, going 25 mph in a pack, a

wheel rub was followed by a quick release lever into the spokes on my front.

8-10 spokes were cut immediately, but the wheel stayed true long enough to

get out of the peloton and stopped. That's just racing, and also an

illustration of choosing strength/safety over minscule weight savings. But

then, its your hyde....

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Century Gothic" LANG="0">A couple years ago, I had Sellwood Cycle set up a ti frame for racing. I brought up the subject of radial lacing, which was discouraged in favor of 36 hole Dura Ace hubs, 3x laced to Open Sup rims. The reasons were, 1st, I'm heavier than the average(everybody), I'm beginning(learning), and... its RACING. The wisdom of this became apparent when, going 25 mph in a pack, a wheel rub was followed by a quick release lever into the spokes on my front. 8-10 spokes were cut immediately, but the wheel stayed true long enough to get out of the peloton and stopped. That's just racing, and also an illustration of choosing strength/safety over minscule weight savings. But then, its your hyde.... </FONT>

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Dave Martin

2002-07-19

Jack built a great radial-laced front wheel that we purchased 2nd hand for

our son. In turn, he used it for track and road racing with top-10 finishes

at major competitions including: EDS-cup, World-cup, Collegiate Nationals,

and Junior Nationals. At 6'5", Teran is BIG, and yet he used the wheel for

literally thousands of miles over several years.

Unless you had no idea that you were buying a special purpose light-weight

racing wheel, please respect David Johnson's comments and realize that

racing equipment doesn't last forever. Occasional failures occur and it

would take more than one isolated example to convince a panel of experts

that Jack's lifetime output of wheels should be questioned.

Good luck in your quest for absolute, no exceptions, perfection.

-Dave Martin

-----Original Message-----

From: David Johnson [mailto:uo_cy-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 8:45 PM

To: lfrei-@mindspring.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Radial Laced Wheels

For the record, I have had a set of wheels built by Jack and they were hands

down the nicest riding, longest lasting wheels wheels that I have owned. No,

my wheels were not radial laced, but I would not hesitate to have a front

wheel radial laced. So, Larry Freimann, whoever you are, grow up and realize

that bike parts do fail occasionally (I broke a Dura-Ace Crank in half, does

Shimano suck now?) and blaming it on the builder is absurd and moronic. Get

a life.....

From: Larry Freimann <lfrei-@mindspring.com>

Reply-To: lfrei-@mindspring.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Radial Laced Wheels

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:49:29 -0700

I recently had a Campy Record low flange hub split at the flange knocking

out four spokes. Luckily this happened at a very slow speed. Called Campy

to see if the would warrant the hubs. They said they DO NOT warrant or

guarantee any radial laced hub front or back. Got pissed off and bought a

Dura Ace replacement. Guess what? They also do not warrant a radial

lacing. The wheelset was purchased at Mt. Tabor bike shop before it

closed, and I understand that the owner, Jack, did up a lot of these wheel

sets, and I recall seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a week ago.

If these would have split going down hill the consequences would not have

been pleasant. Hey Jack if you're out there YOUR WHEELS SUCK!!!

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

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To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

David Johnson

2002-07-19

For the record, I have had a set of wheels built by Jack and they were hands

down the nicest riding, longest lasting wheels wheels that I have owned. No,

my wheels were not radial laced, but I would not hesitate to have a front

wheel radial laced. So, Larry Freimann, whoever you are, grow up and realize

that bike parts do fail occasionally (I broke a Dura-Ace Crank in half, does

Shimano suck now?) and blaming it on the builder is absurd and moronic. Get

a life.....

From: Larry Freimann <lfrei-@mindspring.com>

Reply-To: lfrei-@mindspring.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Radial Laced Wheels

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:49:29 -0700

I recently had a Campy Record low flange hub split at the flange knocking

out four spokes. Luckily this happened at a very slow speed. Called Campy

to see if the would warrant the hubs. They said they DO NOT warrant or

guarantee any radial laced hub front or back. Got pissed off and bought a

Dura Ace replacement. Guess what? They also do not warrant a radial

lacing. The wheelset was purchased at Mt. Tabor bike shop before it

closed, and I understand that the owner, Jack, did up a lot of these wheel

sets, and I recall seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a week ago.

If these would have split going down hill the consequences would not have

been pleasant. Hey Jack if you're out there YOUR WHEELS SUCK!!!

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:

http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Dan H.

2002-07-19

Radial lacing not being covered under warranty is not new and as you have

discovered for good reason.

Jack is one of the best wheel builders in the business [I'm the other] and

he still builds wheels out of his residence.

I will build radial laced wheels only by request as the performance

advantage is negligable and as you found out not as strong.

At 06:49 PM 7/19/02 -0700, you wrote:

The wheelset was purchased at Mt. Tabor bike shop before it

closed, and I understand that the owner, Jack, did up a lot of these wheel

sets, and I recall seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a week ago. Hey

Jack if you're out there YOUR WHEELS SUCK!!! To respond to the whole group

send to ob-@topica.com. To respond to the list manager send to

ob-@teleport.com To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Larry Freimann

2002-07-19

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I recently had a Campy Record low flange hub split at the flange knocking out four spokes. Luckily this happened at a very slow speed. Called Campy to see if the would warrant the hubs. They said they DO NOT warrant or guarantee any radial laced hub front or back. Got pissed off and bought a Dura Ace replacement. Guess what? They also do not warrant a radial lacing. The wheelset was purchased at Mt. Tabor bike shop before it closed, and I understand that the owner, Jack, did up a lot of these wheel sets, and I recall seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a week ago.

If these would have split going down hill the consequences would not have been pleasant. Hey Jack if you're out there YOUR WHEELS SUCK!!!

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I recently had a Campy Record low flange hub split

at the flange knocking out four spokes. Luckily this happened at a very

slow speed. Called Campy to see if the would warrant the hubs. They

said they DO NOT warrant or guarantee any radial laced hub front or back.

Got pissed off and bought a Dura Ace replacement. Guess what? They

also do not warrant a radial lacing. The wheelset was purchased at Mt.

Tabor bike shop before it closed, and I understand that the owner, Jack, did up

a lot of these wheel sets, and I recall seeing a set for sale on OBRA just a

week ago.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If these would have split going down hill the

consequences would not have been pleasant. Hey Jack if you're out there

YOUR WHEELS SUCK!!!</FONT></DIV>

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