T. Kenji Sugahara

OK- there's a couple issues here that are overlapping and are getting confused.

1st: If your kid isn't 10 by Dec. 31, 2010 they can't be an OBRA
member. Thus, they can't race official OBRA categories. They can
race kiddie cross. Make sure to bring it up at the annual meeting if
you would like to see a change.

2nd: Kids with an actual age of 11 and under may not be on the course
at the same time as adults. Period. No exceptions. There was a
correction sent out on that e-mail that you are referencing Mike. The
JCS was created to service these kids. (And they can also race Blind
Date as they have a separate category for the kids)

3rd: If your kid is a high schooler and will be turning 18 this year,
they can race the high school series but they will not be eligible for
the junior cross series. (really wouldn't be a high school series
without seniors)

The cyclocross age thing is what is causing problems.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:33 PM, wrote:
> Kenji,
>
> A little further clarification please. In a recent email it stated;
>
>  "Juniors- CCX age of 11-18.  Because of safety concerns, children with an
> actual age of 12 and under may not race at the same time as adults.
>
> I think this means that an 12 year old with a cyclocross racing age of 14
> can not race the Cross Crusade, or the first day or Hood Double Cross, or
> David Douglas, or Cossifiction, etc? Because all of those races have juniors
> running at the same time as adults. If this is really the case, this is a
> huge change from past years and something I am sure most people are not
> aware of. Seems like this is not the way to grow our sport.
>
> Mike Rosenberg
>
> In a message dated 9/13/2010 6:16:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> kenji@obra.org writes:
>
> Actually- 18 year olds are allowed to race in that time slot as part
> of the High School Cross Series.  Their results just don't count
> toward the Junior Cross Series.  I feel bad for your kids but age
> restrictions can feel somewhat arbitrary sometimes- like a driving
> age, drinking age or voting age.
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Geri Bossen wrote:
>> No actually, you could end up with an almost 9 year-old racing against a
>> 17
>> year-old because the 18 year-olds are forced to race their cross age which
>> is next years age.  This year's 18 year-olds cannot race cross as juniors.
>> So, it could be an almost 9 year-old racing against a 17-year old which is
>> one year less age difference.
>>
>> Geri
>>
>>> From: kenji@obra.org
>>> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:09:03 -0700
>>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing
>>>
>>> What Geri is referring to is the minimum age for an OBRA membership.
>>>
>>> "Juniors are defined as riders 10 years of age to 18 as of December 31
>>> of the current race year." This has not been a change from years
>>> past.
>>>
>>> If your child is not age 10 by December 31st, they will not be
>>> eligible to race in the Junior Cross Series. However, they can still
>>> race in the kiddie cross events. If we were to use cyclocross age, we
>>> would have situations where 8 year olds could be racing at the same
>>> time as 18 year olds.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Geri Bossen
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Parents make sure you check all the fine print.
>>> >
>>> > You may think your young racer can race and make the drive all the way
>>> > to
>>> > Hood River, Eugene, Dayton, Hillsboro, or Salem just to find out that,
>>> > this
>>> > year, the rules have changed. The kids you promised could race this
>>> > year
>>> > may
>>> > not be able to.
>>> >
>>> > Read the fine print.
>>> >
>>> > Geri Bossen
>>> > with 2 very disappointed young racers
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > OBRA mailing list
>>> > obra@list.obra.org
>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kenji Sugahara
>>> Executive Director
>>> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
>>> Phone:  503-278-5550
>>> http://www.obra.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kenji Sugahara
> Executive Director
> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
> Phone:  503-278-5550
> http://www.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone:  503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org

Geri Bossen

I completely agree with Mike. Young juniors should not be racing with the adults especially at the very full CrossCrusade races.

I loved last years Junior Cross Series.

I drove hundreds of miles so the kids could race in a juniors only race. I took a 13 year-old girl, 10 year-old boy and 9 year-old boy who all learned to love bike racing. (Well, actually the 9 year-old has been racing cross since he was 4 because he used to go to watch his Uncle race.) They have all been looking forward to this years cross races.

That now 11 year-old boy has been training for this year cross season. He was overheard telling his internet gaming buddys that he would not be gaming as much because he was training and racing his bike now. This is exactly what his parents had hoped for.

Because kids are often a package deal, I also took their younger cousins and siblings: two 8 year olds, a 6 year old, 5 year old and two 3 year-olds. They all did kid races that were just the right amount of racing for them, long enough to get muddy but not so long as to create tears.

All of the kids loved the experience and could not wait for this year. They have their bikes all set up and they have been practicing. The two now 9 year-olds have really been looking forward to racing as juniors this year.

Last year was great!
The Junior Cross Series races were around noon. This meant I had to have them all up, fed, dressed, van loaded, bikes on and leave around leave around 9AM which was doable. (I did not really enjoy years ago when I had to drag ten juniors out of bed around 5am to make an 8 or 9am race.)

Last year, the juniors raced around noon followed by the kids race. My juniors competed and then helped the younger kids do their races. The 8 year-olds had a long enough race that they were tired and looking forward to the next race. (A 10-15 minute race is great for this age.) The little guys loved being like the older kids and racing too.

I was hoping this year would be the same wonderful experience for the kids.

Geri Bossen

> To: obra@list.obra.org
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:51:37 +0000
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing
>
> Yes this is a big change from previous years and it is intentional. It was debated on at length at last year's annual meeting and then voted on by club representatives. Although there are some kids in that age group who might be able to compete safely this is not generally true for most kids. There were several cases where the presence of the small kids created dangerous situations for the kids and for the adults and there were a couple of resulting injuries. There were also some pushy parents who did not seem to recognize the risk they were creating by having their small kids in large field adult races. Kids can still ride in junior only races but not in large field races combined with adults.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Micros8391@aol.com
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 00:33:49
> To: ;
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Szwaya

Although we're debating an issue that was settled months ago, I still disagree with it.
At PIR STXC, about one-third of the boys 10-14 field and one-fourth of the girls field were aged 10-11. This race was put on with adults on the course. And on a tighter and more technical course, I did not hear of any significant injuries or conflicts between adults and kids.
OBRA also puts on a MTB series with a Cat 3 10-14 category. Again, 10-11 yr olds are on the course with adults, sometimes riding in relatively remote locations. Were any issues reported? If so, would it make sense to apply this 12-and-up rule to MTB races only? I agree that mountain biking on your own takes a degree of maturity and ability.
Does the presence of younger kids on the course present a problem? Maybe. But so do other adults. Have you seen the pointless carnage that occurs at the PIR road races week in and week out? It seems like adults are more of a danger to themselves than anyone else.
Having watched the juniors race closely for signs of problems, I'd make an argument that they tend to race within themselves far more effectively than a majority of adults do. If conflicts arise, it generally stems from over-excited adults trying to pass. A vast majority of adults racing with kids have been supportive and respectful. Yes, exceptions exist but they do everywhere.
So from my understanding, this was why juniors were moved out of the Master B's slot to the women's slot. Were the juniors still put in with the Master B's, or heaven forbid, with the crashers (Master C's or beginners), I'd agree that it would be too dangerous. Those fields are too large and way too unpredictable. But I thought the whole point of shifting the fast Women A's up with the Men A's and the juniors with the remainder of the women's field was to promote a safer race environment for everyone.
We can't protect kids from crashing and hurting themselves. Crashes occur and we all, reluctantly, accept it's a part of racing. We also can't control what other racers do on the course. It's just the way it goes. But the category pairings have been adjusted (at least in Crusade races) to make things as safe as we can.
If OBRA is still uncomfortable, could there be a requirement that a 10-11 yr old (or any junior for that matter) have a season of experience in the junior-only series before being let in to the open junior fields of other races? A newbie is still a newbie, regardless of age. I just don't see how once you turn 12, you are magically able to control yourself in a large race, especially if it's your first one. Would this be a reasonable compromise?
-Mike Szwaya

Mike Murray

Yes this is a big change from previous years and it is intentional. It was debated on at length at last year's annual meeting and then voted on by club representatives. Although there are some kids in that age group who might be able to compete safely this is not generally true for most kids. There were several cases where the presence of the small kids created dangerous situations for the kids and for the adults and there were a couple of resulting injuries. There were also some pushy parents who did not seem to recognize the risk they were creating by having their small kids in large field adult races. Kids can still ride in junior only races but not in large field races combined with adults.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Micros8391@aol.com
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 00:33:49
To: ;
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Micros8391@aol.com

Kenji,

A little further clarification please. In a recent email it stated;

"Juniors- CCX age of 11-18. Because of safety concerns, children with an
actual age of 12 and under may not race at the same time as adults.

I think this means that an 12 year old with a cyclocross racing age of 14
can not race the Cross Crusade, or the first day or Hood Double Cross, or
David Douglas, or Cossifiction, etc? Because all of those races have juniors
running at the same time as adults. If this is really the case, this is a
huge change from past years and something I am sure most people are not
aware of. Seems like this is not the way to grow our sport.

Mike Rosenberg

In a message dated 9/13/2010 6:16:09 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
kenji@obra.org writes:

Actually- 18 year olds are allowed to race in that time slot as part
of the High School Cross Series. Their results just don't count
toward the Junior Cross Series. I feel bad for your kids but age
restrictions can feel somewhat arbitrary sometimes- like a driving
age, drinking age or voting age.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Geri Bossen
wrote:
> No actually, you could end up with an almost 9 year-old racing against a
17
> year-old because the 18 year-olds are forced to race their cross age
which
> is next years age. This year's 18 year-olds cannot race cross as
juniors.
> So, it could be an almost 9 year-old racing against a 17-year old which
is
> one year less age difference.
>
> Geri
>
>> From: kenji@obra.org
>> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:09:03 -0700
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing
>>
>> What Geri is referring to is the minimum age for an OBRA membership.
>>
>> "Juniors are defined as riders 10 years of age to 18 as of December 31
>> of the current race year." This has not been a change from years
>> past.
>>
>> If your child is not age 10 by December 31st, they will not be
>> eligible to race in the Junior Cross Series. However, they can still
>> race in the kiddie cross events. If we were to use cyclocross age, we
>> would have situations where 8 year olds could be racing at the same
>> time as 18 year olds.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Geri Bossen
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Parents make sure you check all the fine print.
>> >
>> > You may think your young racer can race and make the drive all the way
>> > to
>> > Hood River, Eugene, Dayton, Hillsboro, or Salem just to find out
that,
>> > this
>> > year, the rules have changed. The kids you promised could race this
year
>> > may
>> > not be able to.
>> >
>> > Read the fine print.
>> >
>> > Geri Bossen
>> > with 2 very disappointed young racers
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kenji Sugahara
>> Executive Director
>> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
>> Phone: 503-278-5550
>> http://www.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Geri Bossen

But the cross race age 10 year-olds are allowed to race at Cross Nationals just not their local junior cross series.

Geri

> From: kenji@obra.org
> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 18:15:27 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing
> To: geribossen@hotmail.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
>
> Actually- 18 year olds are allowed to race in that time slot as part
> of the High School Cross Series. Their results just don't count
> toward the Junior Cross Series. I feel bad for your kids but age
> restrictions can feel somewhat arbitrary sometimes- like a driving
> age, drinking age or voting age.
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Geri Bossen wrote:
> > No actually, you could end up with an almost 9 year-old racing against a 17
> > year-old because the 18 year-olds are forced to race their cross age which
> > is next years age. This year's 18 year-olds cannot race cross as juniors.
> > So, it could be an almost 9 year-old racing against a 17-year old which is
> > one year less age difference.
> >
> > Geri
> >
> >> From: kenji@obra.org
> >> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:09:03 -0700
> >> To: obra@list.obra.org
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing
> >>
> >> What Geri is referring to is the minimum age for an OBRA membership.
> >>
> >> "Juniors are defined as riders 10 years of age to 18 as of December 31
> >> of the current race year." This has not been a change from years
> >> past.
> >>
> >> If your child is not age 10 by December 31st, they will not be
> >> eligible to race in the Junior Cross Series. However, they can still
> >> race in the kiddie cross events. If we were to use cyclocross age, we
> >> would have situations where 8 year olds could be racing at the same
> >> time as 18 year olds.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Geri Bossen
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Parents make sure you check all the fine print.
> >> >
> >> > You may think your young racer can race and make the drive all the way
> >> > to
> >> > Hood River, Eugene, Dayton, Hillsboro, or Salem just to find out that,
> >> > this
> >> > year, the rules have changed. The kids you promised could race this year
> >> > may
> >> > not be able to.
> >> >
> >> > Read the fine print.
> >> >
> >> > Geri Bossen
> >> > with 2 very disappointed young racers
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > OBRA mailing list
> >> > obra@list.obra.org
> >> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Kenji Sugahara
> >> Executive Director
> >> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
> >> Phone: 503-278-5550
> >> http://www.obra.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kenji Sugahara
> Executive Director
> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
> Phone: 503-278-5550
> http://www.obra.org

T. Kenji Sugahara

Actually- 18 year olds are allowed to race in that time slot as part
of the High School Cross Series. Their results just don't count
toward the Junior Cross Series. I feel bad for your kids but age
restrictions can feel somewhat arbitrary sometimes- like a driving
age, drinking age or voting age.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Geri Bossen wrote:
> No actually, you could end up with an almost 9 year-old racing against a 17
> year-old because the 18 year-olds are forced to race their cross age which
> is next years age.  This year's 18 year-olds cannot race cross as juniors.
> So, it could be an almost 9 year-old racing against a 17-year old which is
> one year less age difference.
>
> Geri
>
>> From: kenji@obra.org
>> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:09:03 -0700
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing
>>
>> What Geri is referring to is the minimum age for an OBRA membership.
>>
>> "Juniors are defined as riders 10 years of age to 18 as of December 31
>> of the current race year." This has not been a change from years
>> past.
>>
>> If your child is not age 10 by December 31st, they will not be
>> eligible to race in the Junior Cross Series. However, they can still
>> race in the kiddie cross events. If we were to use cyclocross age, we
>> would have situations where 8 year olds could be racing at the same
>> time as 18 year olds.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Geri Bossen
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Parents make sure you check all the fine print.
>> >
>> > You may think your young racer can race and make the drive all the way
>> > to
>> > Hood River, Eugene, Dayton, Hillsboro, or Salem just to find out that,
>> > this
>> > year, the rules have changed. The kids you promised could race this year
>> > may
>> > not be able to.
>> >
>> > Read the fine print.
>> >
>> > Geri Bossen
>> > with 2 very disappointed young racers
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kenji Sugahara
>> Executive Director
>> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
>> Phone:  503-278-5550
>> http://www.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone:  503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org

Geri Bossen

No actually, you could end up with an almost 9 year-old racing against a 17 year-old because the 18 year-olds are forced to race their cross age which is next years age. This year's 18 year-olds cannot race cross as juniors. So, it could be an almost 9 year-old racing against a 17-year old which is one year less age difference.

Geri

> From: kenji@obra.org
> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:09:03 -0700
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Juniors and ccx racing
>
> What Geri is referring to is the minimum age for an OBRA membership.
>
> "Juniors are defined as riders 10 years of age to 18 as of December 31
> of the current race year." This has not been a change from years
> past.
>
> If your child is not age 10 by December 31st, they will not be
> eligible to race in the Junior Cross Series. However, they can still
> race in the kiddie cross events. If we were to use cyclocross age, we
> would have situations where 8 year olds could be racing at the same
> time as 18 year olds.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Geri Bossen wrote:
> >
> > Parents make sure you check all the fine print.
> >
> > You may think your young racer can race and make the drive all the way to
> > Hood River, Eugene, Dayton, Hillsboro, or Salem just to find out that, this
> > year, the rules have changed. The kids you promised could race this year may
> > not be able to.
> >
> > Read the fine print.
> >
> > Geri Bossen
> > with 2 very disappointed young racers
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kenji Sugahara
> Executive Director
> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
> Phone: 503-278-5550
> http://www.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

T. Kenji Sugahara

What Geri is referring to is the minimum age for an OBRA membership.

"Juniors are defined as riders 10 years of age to 18 as of December 31
of the current race year." This has not been a change from years
past.

If your child is not age 10 by December 31st, they will not be
eligible to race in the Junior Cross Series. However, they can still
race in the kiddie cross events. If we were to use cyclocross age, we
would have situations where 8 year olds could be racing at the same
time as 18 year olds.

On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Geri Bossen wrote:
>
> Parents make sure you check all the fine print.
>
> You may think your young racer can race and make the drive all the way to
> Hood River, Eugene, Dayton, Hillsboro, or Salem just to find out that, this
> year, the rules have changed. The kids you promised could race this year may
> not be able to.
>
> Read the fine print.
>
> Geri Bossen
> with 2 very disappointed young racers
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone:  503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org

Geri Bossen

Parents make sure you check all the fine print.

You may think your young racer can race and make the drive all the way to Hood River, Eugene, Dayton, Hillsboro, or Salem just to find out that, this year, the rules have changed. The kids you promised could race this year may not be able to.

Read the fine print.

Geri Bossen
with 2 very disappointed young racers