Doooooper....

joec@aracnet.com

2010-09-30

I personally am of the opinion that ALL WADA does is pull sh*$ out of
their a$$.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 10:35:47 -0700, Tom Perilloux
wrote:
> Why was the lab required to report it as the concentration was 500
> times less than the amount WADA labs are requires to detect (assuming
> this minimal level is a baseline where athletes benefit from the
> drug)?  A different lab might not even detect it...
>
> WADA doesn't pull these numbers out of a hat do they? 
> On Sep 30, 2010 9:57 AM, "David Rosen" wrote:
>> You're absolutely right! How thoughtless of me!
> > To all the cavemen in the world: I offer my sincerest apologies
> for comparing you to Heidi Montag and Lindsay Lohan. You are all much
> higher up the evolutionary chain than those two.
>> Dave
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:47:40
>> To:
>> Cc: ; Chris Alling; OBRA
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> You DO realize you have just insulted Cavemen every where...
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:59:19 +0000, "David Rosen"
> > wrote:
>>> They haven't developed tests yet for those 2 that accurately gauge
>>> mental acuity. They are too far below the charts.
>>>
>>> Maybe they are the missing evolutionary links that scientists have
> >> been looking for all of these years.
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:
>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [9]
> >> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:50:57
>>> To: Chris Alling
>>> Cc: OBRA remailer
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> Perhaps we can start by testing Heidi Montah for artificial
>>> Intelligence first. The Lindsay Lohan for... well for just taking
>>> obscene amounts of 'being annoying'.
> >>
>>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:52 -0700, Chris Alling
>>> wrote:
>>>> Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that
> would be
> >>> interesting
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [13]
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [14]] On
> >>> Behalf Of Mike Murray
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
>>>> To: OBRA remailer
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>>
>>>> This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It
> likely did
> >>> but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances.
> For example,
>>>> Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned
> substance. His
>>>> hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not
> have a
> >>> positive prior to that.
>>>>
>>>> Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails
> to
>>>> recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption
> of guilt is
> >>> inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is
> arbitrary. The
>>>> focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed
> to
>>>> substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on
> athletes. Do you
> >>> think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time
> got that way
>>>> "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and
> surgical
>>>> enhancement?
> >>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: "Joel Metz"
> >>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [16]
>>>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
>>>> To: OBRA remailer
> >>> Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org [18]
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>>
>>>> which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the
> days before
> >>> or after the 21st.
>>>>
>>>> personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive
> test
>>>> results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were
> tested,
> >>> and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a
> very
>>>> flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even
> motives
>>>> (if applicable).
>>>>
> >>> this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a
> & b
>>>> samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the
> lab, should
>>>> know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and
> if a does
> >>> and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.
>>>>
>>>> its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given
> the
>>>> miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and
> clenbuterols
> >>> status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable
> case.
>>>> unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would
> cut off
>>>> tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.
> >>>
>>>> -joel
>>>>
>>>>> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
>>>>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com [19]
>>>>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
>>>>> To: ; 'obra'
> >>>> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com [22]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams.
> That is 400
> >>>> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was
> actually taking
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott
>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: "Mike Murray"
>>>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [24]
> >>>> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
>>>>> To: 'obra'
>>>>> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org [26]
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>>>
>>>>> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant,
> not a
>>>>> steroid.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Murray
> >>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject
>>>>> Re: Doooooper....
>>>>>
>>>>> Date
>>>>> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>>From
> >>>> Devin Flynn
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
> >>>>
>>>>>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>>> obra@list.obra.org [28]
>>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [29]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [30]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>>> obra@list.obra.org [31]
>>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [32]
> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [33]
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org [34]
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [35]
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [36]
> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org [37]
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [38]
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [39]
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:ibis23@comcast.net
> [2] mailto:joec@aracnet.com
> [3] mailto:ibis23@comcast.net
> [4] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [5] mailto:calling64@msn.com
> [6] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [7] mailto:ibis23@comcast.net
> [8] mailto:joec@aracnet.com
> [9] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [10] mailto:calling64@msn.com
> [11] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [12] mailto:calling64@msn.com
> [13] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [14] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [15] mailto:magpie@blackbirdsf.org
> [16] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [17] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [18] mailto:magpie@blackbirdsf.org
> [19] mailto:halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> [20] mailto:mike.murray@obra.org
> [21] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [22] mailto:halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> [23] mailto:mike.murray@obra.org
> [24] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [25] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [26] mailto:mike.murray@obra.org
> [27] mailto:orbiker..@yahoo.com
> [28] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [29] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [30] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> [31] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [32] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [33] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> [34] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [35] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [36] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> [37] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [38] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [39] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Tom Perilloux

2010-09-30

Why was the lab required to report it as the concentration was 500 times
less than the amount WADA labs are requires to detect (assuming this minimal
level is a baseline where athletes benefit from the drug)? A different lab
might not even detect it...

WADA doesn't pull these numbers out of a hat do they?
On Sep 30, 2010 9:57 AM, "David Rosen" wrote:
> You're absolutely right! How thoughtless of me!
> To all the cavemen in the world: I offer my sincerest apologies for
comparing you to Heidi Montag and Lindsay Lohan. You are all much higher up
the evolutionary chain than those two.
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:47:40
> To:
> Cc: ; Chris Alling; OBRA<
obra@list.obra.org>
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> You DO realize you have just insulted Cavemen every where...
>
>
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:59:19 +0000, "David Rosen"
> wrote:
>> They haven't developed tests yet for those 2 that accurately gauge
>> mental acuity. They are too far below the charts.
>>
>> Maybe they are the missing evolutionary links that scientists have
>> been looking for all of these years.
>> Dave
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:50:57
>> To: Chris Alling
>> Cc: OBRA remailer
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> Perhaps we can start by testing Heidi Montah for artificial
>> Intelligence first. The Lindsay Lohan for... well for just taking
>> obscene amounts of 'being annoying'.
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:52 -0700, Chris Alling
>> wrote:
>>> Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that would
be
>>> interesting
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Murray
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
>>> To: OBRA remailer
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely
did
>>> but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For
example,
>>> Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance.
His
>>> hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a
>>> positive prior to that.
>>>
>>> Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to
>>> recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of
guilt is
>>> inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary.
The
>>> focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to
>>> substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do
you
>>> think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that
way
>>> "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical
>>> enhancement?
>>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Joel Metz"
>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
>>> To: OBRA remailer
>>> Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days
before
>>> or after the 21st.
>>>
>>> personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
>>> results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
>>> and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
>>> flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even
motives
>>> (if applicable).
>>>
>>> this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
>>> samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab,
should
>>> know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a
does
>>> and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.
>>>
>>> its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
>>> miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and
clenbuterols
>>> status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
>>> unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
>>> tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.
>>>
>>> -joel
>>>
>>>> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
>>>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>>>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
>>>> To: ; 'obra'
>>>> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>>
>>>> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is
400
>>>> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually
taking
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: "Mike Murray"
>>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>>> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
>>>> To: 'obra'
>>>> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>>
>>>> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
>>>> steroid.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Murray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject
>>>> Re: Doooooper....
>>>>
>>>> Date
>>>> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>>From
>>>> Devin Flynn
>>>>
>>>> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


David Rosen

2010-09-30

You're absolutely right! How thoughtless of me!
To all the cavemen in the world: I offer my sincerest apologies for comparing you to Heidi Montag and Lindsay Lohan. You are all much higher up the evolutionary chain than those two.
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From:
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 09:47:40
To:
Cc: ; Chris Alling; OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

You DO realize you have just insulted Cavemen every where...

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:59:19 +0000, "David Rosen"
wrote:
> They haven't developed tests yet for those 2 that accurately gauge
> mental acuity. They are too far below the charts.
>
> Maybe they are the missing evolutionary links that scientists have
> been looking for all of these years.
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:50:57
> To: Chris Alling
> Cc: OBRA remailer
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Perhaps we can start by testing Heidi Montah for artificial
> Intelligence first. The Lindsay Lohan for... well for just taking
> obscene amounts of 'being annoying'.
>
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:52 -0700, Chris Alling
> wrote:
>> Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that would be
>> interesting
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Murray
>> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
>> To: OBRA remailer
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely did
>> but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For example,
>> Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance. His
>> hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a
>> positive prior to that.
>>
>> Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to
>> recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt is
>> inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary. The
>> focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to
>> substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do you
>> think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that way
>> "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical
>> enhancement?
>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Joel Metz"
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
>> To: OBRA remailer
>> Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
>> or after the 21st.
>>
>> personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
>> results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
>> and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
>> flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
>> (if applicable).
>>
>> this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
>> samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
>> know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
>> and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.
>>
>> its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
>> miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
>> status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
>> unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
>> tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.
>>
>> -joel
>>
>>> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
>>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
>>> To: ; 'obra'
>>> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
>>> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Mike Murray"
>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
>>> To: 'obra'
>>> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
>>> steroid.
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject
>>> Re: Doooooper....
>>>
>>> Date
>>> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>>>
>>>>From
>>> Devin Flynn
>>>
>>> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>>>
>>> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Rick Johnson

2010-09-30

Tsk, tsk. Shouldn't that be /cavepersons/?
:-P

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

Liberal intercourse - founding father approved since 1796

On 9/30/2010 9:47 AM, joec@aracnet.com wrote:
> You DO realize you have just insulted Cavemen every where...
>
>
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:59:19 +0000, "David Rosen"
> wrote:
>> They haven't developed tests yet for those 2 that accurately gauge
>> mental acuity. They are too far below the charts.
>>
>> Maybe they are the missing evolutionary links that scientists have
>> been looking for all of these years.
>> Dave
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:50:57
>> To: Chris Alling
>> Cc: OBRA remailer
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> Perhaps we can start by testing Heidi Montah for artificial
>> Intelligence first. The Lindsay Lohan for... well for just taking
>> obscene amounts of 'being annoying'.
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:52 -0700, Chris Alling
>> wrote:
>>> Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that would be
>>> interesting
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Mike Murray
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
>>> To: OBRA remailer
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely did
>>> but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For example,
>>> Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance. His
>>> hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a
>>> positive prior to that.
>>>
>>> Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to
>>> recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt is
>>> inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary. The
>>> focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to
>>> substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do you
>>> think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that way
>>> "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical
>>> enhancement?
>>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Joel Metz"
>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
>>> To: OBRA remailer
>>> Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
>>> or after the 21st.
>>>
>>> personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
>>> results have not been leaked until AFTER both a& b samples were tested,
>>> and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
>>> flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
>>> (if applicable).
>>>
>>> this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a& b
>>> samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
>>> know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
>>> and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.
>>>
>>> its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
>>> miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
>>> status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
>>> unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
>>> tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.
>>>
>>> -joel
>>>
>>>> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
>>>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>>>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
>>>> To:; 'obra'
>>>> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>>
>>>> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
>>>> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: "Mike Murray"
>>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>>> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
>>>> To: 'obra'
>>>> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>>
>>>> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
>>>> steroid.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Murray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject
>>>> Re: Doooooper....
>>>>
>>>> Date
>>>> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>> Devin Flynn
>>>>
>>>> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


joec@aracnet.com

2010-09-30

You DO realize you have just insulted Cavemen every where...

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 15:59:19 +0000, "David Rosen"
wrote:
> They haven't developed tests yet for those 2 that accurately gauge
> mental acuity. They are too far below the charts.
>
> Maybe they are the missing evolutionary links that scientists have
> been looking for all of these years.
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:50:57
> To: Chris Alling
> Cc: OBRA remailer
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Perhaps we can start by testing Heidi Montah for artificial
> Intelligence first. The Lindsay Lohan for... well for just taking
> obscene amounts of 'being annoying'.
>
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:52 -0700, Chris Alling
> wrote:
>> Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that would be
>> interesting
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Murray
>> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
>> To: OBRA remailer
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely did
>> but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For example,
>> Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance. His
>> hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a
>> positive prior to that.
>>
>> Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to
>> recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt is
>> inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary. The
>> focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to
>> substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do you
>> think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that way
>> "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical
>> enhancement?
>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Joel Metz"
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
>> To: OBRA remailer
>> Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
>> or after the 21st.
>>
>> personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
>> results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
>> and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
>> flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
>> (if applicable).
>>
>> this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
>> samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
>> know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
>> and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.
>>
>> its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
>> miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
>> status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
>> unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
>> tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.
>>
>> -joel
>>
>>> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
>>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
>>> To: ; 'obra'
>>> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
>>> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Mike Murray"
>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
>>> To: 'obra'
>>> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>>
>>> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
>>> steroid.
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject
>>> Re: Doooooper....
>>>
>>> Date
>>> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>>>
>>>>From
>>> Devin Flynn
>>>
>>> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>>>
>>> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


David Rosen

2010-09-30

They haven't developed tests yet for those 2 that accurately gauge mental acuity. They are too far below the charts.

Maybe they are the missing evolutionary links that scientists have been looking for all of these years.
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:50:57
To: Chris Alling
Cc: OBRA remailer
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

Perhaps we can start by testing Heidi Montah for artificial
Intelligence first. The Lindsay Lohan for... well for just taking
obscene amounts of 'being annoying'.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:52 -0700, Chris Alling
wrote:
> Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that would be
> interesting
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Murray
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
> To: OBRA remailer
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely did
> but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For example,
> Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance. His
> hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a
> positive prior to that.
>
> Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to
> recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt is
> inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary. The
> focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to
> substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do you
> think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that way
> "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical
> enhancement?
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Joel Metz"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
> To: OBRA remailer
> Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
> or after the 21st.
>
> personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
> results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
> and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
> flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
> (if applicable).
>
> this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
> samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
> know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
> and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.
>
> its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
> miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
> status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
> unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
> tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.
>
> -joel
>
>> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
>> To: ; 'obra'
>> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
>> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
>> it.
>>
>> Scott
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Mike Murray"
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
>> To: 'obra'
>> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
>> steroid.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>> Subject
>> Re: Doooooper....
>>
>> Date
>> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>>
>>>From
>> Devin Flynn
>>
>> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>>
>> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>>
>>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


craig austin

2010-09-30

Is Chuck Norris considered a performance enhancing substance?

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 8:50 AM, wrote:

> Perhaps we can start by testing Heidi Montah for artificial
> Intelligence first. The Lindsay Lohan for... well for just taking
> obscene amounts of 'being annoying'.
>
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:52 -0700, Chris Alling
> wrote:
> > Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that would be
> > interesting
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> > Behalf Of Mike Murray
> > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
> > To: OBRA remailer
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
> >
> > This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely
> did
> > but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For
> example,
> > Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance.
> His
> > hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a
> > positive prior to that.
> >
> > Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to
> > recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt
> is
> > inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary.
> The
> > focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to
> > substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do
> you
> > think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that
> way
> > "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical
> > enhancement?
> > Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Joel Metz"
> > Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
> > To: OBRA remailer
> > Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
> >
> > which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
> > or after the 21st.
> >
> > personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
> > results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
> > and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
> > flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
> > (if applicable).
> >
> > this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
> > samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab,
> should
> > know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
> > and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.
> >
> > its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
> > miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
> > status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
> > unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
> > tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.
> >
> > -joel
> >
> >> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
> >> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> >> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
> >> To: ; 'obra'
> >> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
> >>
> >> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
> >> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually
> taking
> >> it.
> >>
> >> Scott
> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: "Mike Murray"
> >> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> >> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
> >> To: 'obra'
> >> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
> >>
> >> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
> >> steroid.
> >>
> >> Mike Murray
> >>
> >>
> >> Subject
> >> Re: Doooooper....
> >>
> >> Date
> >> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
> >>
> >>>From
> >> Devin Flynn
> >>
> >> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
> >>
> >> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
> >>
> >>> Contador banned...steroids...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


joec@aracnet.com

2010-09-30

Perhaps we can start by testing Heidi Montah for artificial
Intelligence first. The Lindsay Lohan for... well for just taking
obscene amounts of 'being annoying'.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 08:47:52 -0700, Chris Alling
wrote:
> Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that would be
> interesting
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Murray
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
> To: OBRA remailer
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely did
> but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For example,
> Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance. His
> hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a
> positive prior to that.
>
> Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to
> recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt is
> inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary. The
> focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to
> substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do you
> think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that way
> "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical
> enhancement?
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Joel Metz"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
> To: OBRA remailer
> Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
> or after the 21st.
>
> personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
> results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
> and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
> flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
> (if applicable).
>
> this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
> samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
> know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
> and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.
>
> its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
> miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
> status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
> unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
> tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.
>
> -joel
>
>> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
>> To: ; 'obra'
>> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
>> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
>> it.
>>
>> Scott
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Mike Murray"
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
>> To: 'obra'
>> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>>
>> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
>> steroid.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>>
>>
>> Subject
>> Re: Doooooper....
>>
>> Date
>> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>>
>>>From
>> Devin Flynn
>>
>> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>>
>> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>>
>>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>


Chris Alling

2010-09-30

Testing movie stars for steroids and artificial enhancement that would be
interesting

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
To: OBRA remailer
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely did
but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For example,
Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance. His
hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a
positive prior to that.

Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to
recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt is
inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary. The
focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to
substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do you
think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that way
"naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical
enhancement?
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joel Metz"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
To: OBRA remailer
Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
or after the 21st.

personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
(if applicable).

this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.

its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.

-joel

> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
> To: ; 'obra'
> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
> it.
>
> Scott
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
> To: 'obra'
> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
> steroid.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> Subject
> Re: Doooooper....
>
> Date
> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>
>>From
> Devin Flynn
>
> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>
> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>
>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
joel metz : magpie@blackbirdsf.org : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective : http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
after she got that bicycle...

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Buck, Jeffrey A

2010-09-30

>From www.pezcyclingnews.com:

Expert Opinion Points to Food Contamination as Cause of Contador's Test Results

An independent expert opinion from Dr. Douwe de Boer of The Netherlands (attached) and the facts of the situation point to Alberto accidentally ingesting Clenbuterol by eating contaminated meat. The trace amounts and timing of detection also show that Alberto could never have received a performance enhancement of Clenbuterol.

Following is a condensed version of Dr. Douwe de Boer's expert opinion:

Alberto Contador underwent sport drug testing during many days of the 2010 Tour de France, including July 19, 20, 21, and 22.

No Clenbuterol was detected in any of the tests prior to July 21.

An extremely low trace concentration of Clenbuterol was found in the urine sample taken on July 21; the concentration found in the urine sample taken on July 22 was even lower.

The half-life of Clenbuterol is 25-39 hours.

These facts show that Clenbuterol was ingested after the urine testing on July 20 in an amount that could have never enhanced his performance.

There are numerous documented cases of humans ingesting Clenbuterol accidentally by eating meat from animals that have been fed the substance to stimulate growth.

Alberto is holding a press conference on September 30 at 12:00 p.m. in Pinto, Spain to explain this matter further.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 8:30 AM
To: OBRA remailer
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely did but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For example, Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance. His hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a positive prior to that.

Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt is inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary. The focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do you think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that way "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical enhancement?
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joel Metz"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
To: OBRA remailer
Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
or after the 21st.

personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
(if applicable).

this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.

its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.

-joel

> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
> To: ; 'obra'
> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
> it.
>
> Scott
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
> To: 'obra'
> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
> steroid.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> Subject
> Re: Doooooper....
>
> Date
> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>
>>From
> Devin Flynn
>
> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>
> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>
>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
joel metz : magpie@blackbirdsf.org : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective : http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
after she got that bicycle...

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Mike Murray

2010-09-30

This logic presumes that prior testing looked for clenbuterol. It likely did but not all specimens are tested for all possible substances. For example, Armstrong had a tumor which produced hCG, which is a banned substance. His hCG levels were high at the time of his diagnosis but he did not have a positive prior to that.

Just to be clear, I think the entire process is flawed. It fails to recognize that testing is not a binary function. The presumption of guilt is inappropriate. The list of banned substances and practices is arbitrary. The focus is inappropriately and inaccurately on cheating as opposed to substance abuse. As a society we focus inappropriately on athletes. Do you think that the buff movie stars and models we see all the time got that way "naturally"? Why don't we test them for banned substances and surgical enhancement?
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joel Metz"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 07:48:27
To: OBRA remailer
Reply-To: magpie@blackbirdsf.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
or after the 21st.

personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
(if applicable).

this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.

its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.

-joel

> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
> To: ; 'obra'
> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
> it.
>
> Scott
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
> To: 'obra'
> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
> steroid.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> Subject
> Re: Doooooper....
>
> Date
> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>
>>From
> Devin Flynn
>
> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>
> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>
>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
joel metz : magpie@blackbirdsf.org : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective : http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
after she got that bicycle...

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Joel Metz

2010-09-30

which, of course, is why he didnt test positive for it on the days before
or after the 21st.

personally, the GOOD news out of this is that FINALLY, positive test
results have not been leaked until AFTER both a & b samples were tested,
and found positive. this, in and of itself, is a huge step in a very
flawed process, regardless of contadors innocence; guilt, or even motives
(if applicable).

this is a fine example of the scenario as it OUGHT to happen - a & b
samples test positive, THEN news release. no one, not even the lab, should
know who the samples are from until a AND b test positive - and if a does
and b doesnt, it should be as if nothing ever happened.

its now on contador to prove his innocence, and frankly, given the
miniscule dosage detected, the tiny window of detection, and clenbuterols
status as a known food contaminant, hes got a pretty believable case.
unless, of course, youre a certain german tv network, who would cut off
tdf coverage for use of the word "dope" as slang.

-joel

> Or he took it a long time before the testing.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
> To: ; 'obra'
> Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
> it.
>
> Scott
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
> To: 'obra'
> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
> steroid.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> Subject
> Re: Doooooper....
>
> Date
> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>
>>From
> Devin Flynn
>
> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>
> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>
>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
joel metz : magpie@blackbirdsf.org : http://www.blackbirdsf.org/
magpie messenger collective : http://magpiemessenger.com/
==
i know what innocence looks like - and it wasn't there,
after she got that bicycle...


Mike Murray

2010-09-30

Or he took it a long time before the testing.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 05:23:46
To: ; 'obra'
Reply-To: halfwheelhill@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400 times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking it.

Scott
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mike Murray"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
To: 'obra'
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
steroid.

Mike Murray

Subject
Re: Doooooper....

Date
09/29/2010 09:12 PM

>From
Devin Flynn

Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"

On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:

> Contador banned...steroids...
>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


craig austin

2010-09-30

Maybe he just shared a glass of vino with Vino.

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:23 PM, wrote:

> Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400
> times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking
> it.
>
> Scott
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mike Murray"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
> To: 'obra'
> Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....
>
> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
> steroid.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> Subject
> Re: Doooooper....
>
> Date
> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>
> >From
> Devin Flynn
>
> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>
> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>
> > Contador banned...steroids...
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


halfwheelhill@yahoo.com

2010-09-30

Did you see the amount they found in his test. .5 picagrams. That is 400 times under the level they test for. I highly doubt he was actually taking it.

Scott
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mike Murray"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12
To: 'obra'
Reply-To: mike.murray@obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doooooper....

Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
steroid.

Mike Murray

Subject
Re: Doooooper....

Date
09/29/2010 09:12 PM

>From
Devin Flynn

Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"

On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:

> Contador banned...steroids...
>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


joec@aracnet.com

2010-09-30

Much as I dislike the little turd, I suspect that this will not result
in anything other thn a raised eyebrow given the amount detected.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:20:12 -0700, "Mike Murray"
wrote:
> Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
> steroid.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> Subject
> Re: Doooooper....
>
> Date
> 09/29/2010 09:12 PM
>
>>From
> Devin Flynn
>
> Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"
>
> On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:
>
>> Contador banned...steroids...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mike Murray

2010-09-30

Also not steroids. Clenbuterol a banned beta agonist stimulant, not a
steroid.

Mike Murray

Subject
Re: Doooooper....

Date
09/29/2010 09:12 PM

>From
Devin Flynn

Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"

On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:

> Contador banned...steroids...
>
>
>
>


Devin Flynn

2010-09-30

Ok not banned, but "provisionally suspended"

On Sep 29, 2010, at 9:02 PM, Devin Flynn wrote:

> Contador banned...steroids...
>
>
>
>


Devin Flynn

2010-09-30

Contador banned...steroids...