Mike Murray

I think you could make the argument that they are being paid what they are worth on the market. In cycling, in contrast to the ball sports, team owners and investors are not knocking down piles of money.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: chris
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 13:33:16
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] is the $$$ the reason for the cheating

I did not imply that it was different versus any other sport. I did ask if though the huge disparity in salaries, structure of how the system is designed to pay more on bonuses, etc.. is a contributing factor as to why there is such a problem.

I am very clear to the fact that the US big three sports could probably care less and have a few strategic reprimands each year to make it look like they are cracking down.

I guess my feeling is that if cycling, specifically the UCI and WADA, want to try and clean up the sport, first they need to get these guys paid what they are worth.

The testing can and has been beat, so I don't agree it has solved anything.

Just my .02

subject
Date10/09/2010 12:18 PM

FromMike Murray

Your implication that cheating is more common in cycling is an error created by a selection bias. Cycling tests for doping far more frequently and has tested for much longer. This alone creates the appearance the there is more doping in cycling. In other sports "if you don't look you don't find".
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Justin Burstein

Doesn't make much sense, that. Anyone in the top 10 at major races is
almost guaranteed to be earning a nice living. Or if they aren't they will
be when they sign their next contract. Which is kind of the point. The
pressure isn't about the prize money. It's about press, sponsors and
contracts.

it's not about the money, it's about the culture. You look at the attitude
in the peloton--Armstrong using twitter to rail against the drug testers,
and not a word about the cheaters. David Millar, a purported anti-doping
activist supporting Alberto when it's clear to most of the rational world
that he's cheated. Ricco allowed back after egregious
and unrepentant cheating. And the shunning of people who speak out against
the cheaters. That's the real issue. Pro cycling, despite the veneer of
anti-doping sentiment is an institution that fundamentally accepts drug
cheating as a way of life.

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Justin Burstein
wrote:

> Doesn't make much sense, that. Anyone in the top 10 at major races is
> almost guaranteed to be earning a nice living. Or if they aren't they will
> be when they sign their next contract. Which is kind of the point. The
> pressure isn't about the prize money. It's about press, sponsors and
> contracts.
>
> it's not about the money, it's about the culture. You look at the attitude
> in the peloton--Armstrong using twitter to rail against the drug testers,
> and not a word about the cheaters. David Millar, a purported anti-doping
> activist supporting Alberto when it's clear to most of the rational world
> that he's cheated. Ricco allowed back after egregious
> and unrepentant cheating. And the shunning of people who speak out against
> the cheaters. That's the real issue. Pro cycling, despite the veneer of
> anti-doping sentiment is an institution that fundamentally accepts drug
> cheating as a way of life.
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Mike Kerkmann wrote:
>
>> One argument I have heard is that by spreading the prize purse across more
>> of the top placing riders (ie. top 15 vs. top 5), there is less need to be
>> in 1st-3rd to earn a living.
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 10/9/10, Craig Hamilton * wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Craig Hamilton
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] is the $$$ the reason for the cheating
>> To: "chris"
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
>> Date: Saturday, October 9, 2010, 8:19 PM
>>
>>
>> oh - forgot to mention about the $$ - pay the dopers a minimum 500k a year
>> and we'll all watch that league - we will - the downside is that that they
>> all go bald at 30 and die at 53.........
>>
>> $ drives insanity.......
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Craig Hamilton
>> > wrote:
>>
>> I like the cheaters league..........
>>
>> It's a waste of time to try to run pro cycling like an amatuer / olympic
>> event. This is entertainment and people pay to watch the best perform - as
>> it is in the states so it is in Europe - we don't really care if they are
>> doped or not - we just like good sport. It's tv - it's drama - it's fake -
>> I don't care if they cheat but if the UCI and others keep trying to run a
>> "clean" sport we'll lose pro cycling as a major sport forever b/c
>> all potential sponsors will bail and it will appear as the dirtiest sport of
>> all (guys will think 40k a year to ride is awesome).
>>
>> The euros need to lower the testing standard and realize that this is
>> tv/drama/entertainment - we don't really care. If you want a clean "pro
>> race world" all sponsors will pull out and we'll be left with our
>> amatuer fun (is that really that bad).
>>
>> Let's establish a cheaters league (druge encouraged) and a non drug league
>> - then we'll be able to enjoy both without the guessing involved.
>>
>> My .02
>>
>> CH
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:33 PM, chris
>> > wrote:
>>
>> I did not imply that it was different versus any other sport. I did ask if
>> though the huge disparity in salaries, structure of how the system is
>> designed to pay more on bonuses, etc.. is a contributing factor as to why
>> there is such a problem.
>>
>> I am very clear to the fact that the US big three sports could probably
>> care less and have a few strategic reprimands each year to make it look like
>> they are cracking down.
>>
>> I guess my feeling is that if cycling, specifically the UCI and WADA, want
>> to try and clean up the sport, first they need to get these guys paid what
>> they are worth.
>>
>> The testing can and has been beat, so I don't agree it has solved
>> anything.
>>
>> Just my .02
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> subject
>> Date10/09/2010 12:18 PM
>>
>> FromMike Murray
>> >
>>
>> Your implication that cheating is more common in cycling is an error
>> created by a selection bias. Cycling tests for doping far more frequently
>> and has tested for much longer. This alone creates the appearance the there
>> is more doping in cycling. In other sports "if you don't look you don't
>> find".
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>> OBRA mailing list
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Justin Burstein
>

Mike Kerkmann

One argument I have heard is that by spreading the prize purse across more of the top placing riders (ie. top 15 vs. top 5), there is less need to be in 1st-3rd to earn a living.

--- On Sat, 10/9/10, Craig Hamilton wrote:

From: Craig Hamilton
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] is the $$$ the reason for the cheating
To: "chris"
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Saturday, October 9, 2010, 8:19 PM

oh - forgot to mention about the $$ - pay the dopers a minimum 500k a year and we'll all watch that league - we will - the downside is that that they all go bald at 30 and die at 53.........
 
$ drives insanity.......

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Craig Hamilton wrote:

I like the cheaters league..........
 
It's a waste of time to try to run pro cycling like an amatuer / olympic event.  This is entertainment and people pay to watch the best perform - as it is in the states so it is in Europe - we don't really care if they are doped or not - we just like good sport.  It's tv - it's drama - it's fake - I don't care if they cheat but if the UCI and others keep trying to run a "clean" sport we'll lose pro cycling as a major sport forever b/c all potential sponsors will bail and it will appear as the dirtiest sport of all (guys will think 40k a year to ride is awesome).

 
The euros need to lower the testing standard and realize that this is tv/drama/entertainment - we don't really care.  If you want a clean "pro race world" all sponsors will pull out and we'll be left with our amatuer fun (is that really that bad).

 
Let's establish a cheaters league (druge encouraged) and a non drug league - then we'll be able to enjoy both without the guessing involved.
 
My .02
 
CH

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:33 PM, chris wrote:

I did not imply that it was different versus any other sport. I did ask if though the huge disparity in salaries, structure of how the system is designed to pay more on bonuses, etc.. is a contributing factor as to why there is such a problem.

I am very clear to the fact that the US big three sports could probably care less and have a few strategic reprimands each year to make it look like they are cracking down.

I guess my feeling is that if cycling, specifically the UCI and WADA, want to try and clean up the sport, first they need to get these guys paid what they are worth.

The testing can and has been beat, so I don't agree it has solved anything.

Just my .02

subject
Date10/09/2010 12:18 PM

FromMike Murray

Your implication that cheating is more common in cycling is an error created by a selection bias. Cycling tests for doping far more frequently and has tested for much longer. This alone creates the appearance the there is more doping in cycling. In other sports "if you don't look you don't find".

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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Craig Hamilton

oh - forgot to mention about the $$ - pay the dopers a minimum 500k a year
and we'll all watch that league - we will - the downside is that that they
all go bald at 30 and die at 53.........

$ drives insanity.......

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Craig Hamilton wrote:

> I like the cheaters league..........
>
> It's a waste of time to try to run pro cycling like an amatuer / olympic
> event. This is entertainment and people pay to watch the best perform - as
> it is in the states so it is in Europe - we don't really care if they are
> doped or not - we just like good sport. It's tv - it's drama - it's fake -
> I don't care if they cheat but if the UCI and others keep trying to run a
> "clean" sport we'll lose pro cycling as a major sport forever b/c
> all potential sponsors will bail and it will appear as the dirtiest sport of
> all (guys will think 40k a year to ride is awesome).
>
> The euros need to lower the testing standard and realize that this is
> tv/drama/entertainment - we don't really care. If you want a clean "pro
> race world" all sponsors will pull out and we'll be left with our
> amatuer fun (is that really that bad).
>
> Let's establish a cheaters league (druge encouraged) and a non drug league
> - then we'll be able to enjoy both without the guessing involved.
>
> My .02
>
> CH
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:33 PM, chris wrote:
>
>> I did not imply that it was different versus any other sport. I did ask if
>> though the huge disparity in salaries, structure of how the system is
>> designed to pay more on bonuses, etc.. is a contributing factor as to why
>> there is such a problem.
>>
>> I am very clear to the fact that the US big three sports could probably
>> care less and have a few strategic reprimands each year to make it look like
>> they are cracking down.
>>
>> I guess my feeling is that if cycling, specifically the UCI and WADA, want
>> to try and clean up the sport, first they need to get these guys paid what
>> they are worth.
>>
>> The testing can and has been beat, so I don't agree it has solved
>> anything.
>>
>> Just my .02
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> subject
>> Date10/09/2010 12:18 PM
>>
>> FromMike Murray
>>
>> Your implication that cheating is more common in cycling is an error
>> created by a selection bias. Cycling tests for doping far more frequently
>> and has tested for much longer. This alone creates the appearance the there
>> is more doping in cycling. In other sports "if you don't look you don't
>> find".
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>

Craig Hamilton

I like the cheaters league..........

It's a waste of time to try to run pro cycling like an amatuer / olympic
event. This is entertainment and people pay to watch the best perform - as
it is in the states so it is in Europe - we don't really care if they are
doped or not - we just like good sport. It's tv - it's drama - it's fake -
I don't care if they cheat but if the UCI and others keep trying to run a
"clean" sport we'll lose pro cycling as a major sport forever b/c
all potential sponsors will bail and it will appear as the dirtiest sport of
all (guys will think 40k a year to ride is awesome).

The euros need to lower the testing standard and realize that this is
tv/drama/entertainment - we don't really care. If you want a clean "pro
race world" all sponsors will pull out and we'll be left with our
amatuer fun (is that really that bad).

Let's establish a cheaters league (druge encouraged) and a non drug league -
then we'll be able to enjoy both without the guessing involved.

My .02

CH

On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:33 PM, chris wrote:

> I did not imply that it was different versus any other sport. I did ask if
> though the huge disparity in salaries, structure of how the system is
> designed to pay more on bonuses, etc.. is a contributing factor as to why
> there is such a problem.
>
> I am very clear to the fact that the US big three sports could probably
> care less and have a few strategic reprimands each year to make it look like
> they are cracking down.
>
> I guess my feeling is that if cycling, specifically the UCI and WADA, want
> to try and clean up the sport, first they need to get these guys paid what
> they are worth.
>
> The testing can and has been beat, so I don't agree it has solved anything.
>
> Just my .02
>
>
>
>
> subject
> Date10/09/2010 12:18 PM
>
> FromMike Murray
>
> Your implication that cheating is more common in cycling is an error
> created by a selection bias. Cycling tests for doping far more frequently
> and has tested for much longer. This alone creates the appearance the there
> is more doping in cycling. In other sports "if you don't look you don't
> find".
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

chris

I did not imply that it was different versus any other sport. I did ask if though the huge disparity in salaries, structure of how the system is designed to pay more on bonuses, etc.. is a contributing factor as to why there is such a problem.

I am very clear to the fact that the US big three sports could probably care less and have a few strategic reprimands each year to make it look like they are cracking down.

I guess my feeling is that if cycling, specifically the UCI and WADA, want to try and clean up the sport, first they need to get these guys paid what they are worth.

The testing can and has been beat, so I don't agree it has solved anything.

Just my .02

subject
Date10/09/2010 12:18 PM

FromMike Murray

Your implication that cheating is more common in cycling is an error created by a selection bias. Cycling tests for doping far more frequently and has tested for much longer. This alone creates the appearance the there is more doping in cycling. In other sports "if you don't look you don't find".