OBRA: OBRA Chat: Cost of racing

Ron Magnus

2002-08-03

Let's see here......

Last May I put on the "Middle of May track race" The entry fee went from

$12 in past years to $10.00 this year. Prizes were still 5 deep and I

still had fields that didn't span the prize list. I set the prizing so

that even the fifth place person got their entry fee and a little more.

Something wrong with this picture.....probably the fact that a lot more

folks could have had a great day of racing?

Ron Magnus

Schreck, George

2002-08-02

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David, perhaps your level of racing success has given you a different view.

For someone like me who wins very infrequently, money is not a motivator,

and receiving a trophy (it could be a ribbon or something more) means more

to me. Granted, my mantle s fairly empty (I do have a nice clock), so a

trophy tends to stand out. For people who have won as much as you, at some

point too many trophies become junk (I am not trying to be sarcastic).

Depending on the level of racing, I think there may be different desires. I

think giving CAT 1/2 racers money and they rest non-monetary trophies or

ribbons may be an appropriate way to distinguish between the two groups. I

tend to view work as a less than enjoyable way to earn money, and racing as

a more than enjoyable way to spend money. That being said, I am sure there

are those who desire or need the money, but racing is a very uncertain means

to earn it given the small number of participants that will ever see any

prize money.

                          George C. Schreck

                           Phone: (503) 813-7211

                           Fax: (503) 813-7190

-----Original Message-----

From: David Auker [mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:03 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of racing

Our racing social fabric IS wonderful, but, however, this IS racing, not

touring.

I, for one, will thank promoters for making the extra effort to make their

race special by providing cash prizes. The deeper, the better. Thank you,

sponsors (and thank you, promoters for all that legwork and begging)!

Thrill of victory, gas in the tank...these go hand in hand.

When I promoted Piece of Cake (20+years), I made it a part of my work to

solicit prizes (mostly cash). Fortunately, I had no police or road fees, so

my expenses may have been a bit less than some promoters incur. Money was

always made on both sides of the promotion: racers (mostly) and organizers.

I hope with all this talk about "I don't need no prize$" that you WILL value

the races that chose to stimulate performance with a little cash on the

line.

Am I alone in this, or, have any of you ever won some money that really

added to your exuberance over a fine performance?

David

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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<DIV><SPAN class=330121817-02082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>David,

perhaps your level of racing success has given you a different view. For

someone like me who wins very infrequently, money is not a motivator, and

receiving a trophy (it could be a ribbon or something more) means more to

me. Granted, my mantle s fairly empty (I do have a nice clock), so a

trophy tends to stand out. For people who have won as much as you, at

some point too many trophies become junk (I am not trying to be

sarcastic).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=330121817-02082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=330121817-02082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>Depending on the level of racing, I think there may be different

desires. I think giving CAT 1/2 racers money and they

rest non-monetary trophies or ribbons may be an appropriate way to

distinguish between the two groups. I tend to view work as a less than

enjoyable way to earn money, and racing as a more than enjoyable way to

spend money. That being said, I am sure there are those who desire or

need the money, but racing is a very uncertain means to earn it given the small

number of participants that will ever see any prize money.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<P><FONT face=Arial

size=2>                         <B><I></I></B></FONT><B><I>

<FONT face=Arial color=#800000>George C. Schreck</FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT

face=Arial

color=#800000>

Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT></I></B> <BR><B><I><FONT face=Arial

color=#800000>

Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT></I></B> </P>

<DIV> </DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Auker

[mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 10:03

AM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of

racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Our racing social fabric IS wonderful, but, however,

this IS racing, not touring. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I, for one, will thank promoters for making the extra

effort to make their race special by providing cash prizes. The deeper,

the better. <STRONG>Thank you, sponsors </STRONG>(and <STRONG>thank you,

promoters </STRONG>for all that legwork and begging)!</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thrill of victory, gas in the tank...these go hand in

hand.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>When I promoted Piece of Cake (20+years), I made it a

part of my work to solicit prizes (mostly cash). Fortunately, I had no

police or road fees, so my expenses may have been a bit less than some

promoters incur. Money was always made on both sides of the promotion:

racers (mostly) and organizers.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I hope with all this talk about "I don't need no prize$"

that you WILL value the races that chose to stimulate performance with a

little cash on the line. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Am I alone in this, or, have any of you ever won some

money that really added to your exuberance over a fine

performance?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>David</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

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Roger-@lucy.com

2002-08-02

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Personally, I'd be tickled to be able to race cat 1/2 and not get dropped.

It would be worth every penny I've ever spent on a bike.

Also, in bigger races, did you ever wonder why the guys who WIN get the

stuff that makes them go faster ? Like new wheels or even a bike ? I think

we have it all wrong on the schwag front. Give medals to the top guys, and

the new bike to the guy who finishes last. Maybe the field will get more

even and competitive :)

-r

-----Original Message-----

From: David Auker [mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:03 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of racing

Our racing social fabric IS wonderful, but, however, this IS racing, not

touring.

I, for one, will thank promoters for making the extra effort to make their

race special by providing cash prizes. The deeper, the better. Thank you,

sponsors (and thank you, promoters for all that legwork and begging)!

Thrill of victory, gas in the tank...these go hand in hand.

When I promoted Piece of Cake (20+years), I made it a part of my work to

solicit prizes (mostly cash). Fortunately, I had no police or road fees, so

my expenses may have been a bit less than some promoters incur. Money was

always made on both sides of the promotion: racers (mostly) and organizers.

I hope with all this talk about "I don't need no prize$" that you WILL

value the races that chose to stimulate performance with a little cash on

the line.

Am I alone in this, or, have any of you ever won some money that really

added to your exuberance over a fine performance?

David

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN

class=593401117-02082002>Personally, I'd be tickled to be able to race cat 1/2

and not get dropped. It would be worth every penny I've ever spent on a

bike.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN

class=593401117-02082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=593401117-02082002>Also,

in bigger races, did you ever wonder why the guys who WIN get the stuff that

makes them go faster ? Like new wheels or even a bike ? I think we have it all

wrong on the schwag front. Give medals to the top guys, and the new bike to the

guy who finishes last. Maybe the field will get more even and competitive :)

</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN

class=593401117-02082002></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN

class=593401117-02082002>-r</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Auker

[mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 10:03

AM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of

racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Our racing social fabric IS wonderful, but, however,

this IS racing, not touring. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I, for one, will thank promoters for making the extra

effort to make their race special by providing cash prizes. The deeper,

the better. <STRONG>Thank you, sponsors </STRONG>(and <STRONG>thank you,

promoters </STRONG>for all that legwork and begging)!</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thrill of victory, gas in the tank...these go hand in

hand.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>When I promoted Piece of Cake (20+years), I made it a

part of my work to solicit prizes (mostly cash). Fortunately, I had no

police or road fees, so my expenses may have been a bit less than some

promoters incur. Money was always made on both sides of the promotion:

racers (mostly) and organizers.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I hope with all this talk about "I don't need no prize$"

that you WILL value the races that chose to stimulate performance with a

little cash on the line. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Am I alone in this, or, have any of you ever won some

money that really added to your exuberance over a fine

performance?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>David</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Erik Voldengen

2002-08-02

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Just go to any track race or crit and watch what happens when the ring the

bell

and announce even a 5 dollar premium. Racers like the schwag.

-Erik

-----Original Message-----

From: David Auker [mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:03 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of racing

Our racing social fabric IS wonderful, but, however, this IS racing, not

touring.

I, for one, will thank promoters for making the extra effort to make their

race special by providing cash prizes. The deeper, the better. Thank you,

sponsors (and thank you, promoters for all that legwork and begging)!

Thrill of victory, gas in the tank...these go hand in hand.

When I promoted Piece of Cake (20+years), I made it a part of my work to

solicit prizes (mostly cash). Fortunately, I had no police or road fees, so

my expenses may have been a bit less than some promoters incur. Money was

always made on both sides of the promotion: racers (mostly) and organizers.

I hope with all this talk about "I don't need no prize$" that you WILL

value the races that chose to stimulate performance with a little cash on

the line.

Am I alone in this, or, have any of you ever won some money that really

added to your exuberance over a fine performance?

David

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

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<DIV><SPAN class=093520817-02082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Just

go to any track race or crit and watch what happens when the ring the

bell</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=093520817-02082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>and

announce even a 5 dollar premium. Racers like the schwag.

</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=093520817-02082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=093520817-02082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2>-Erik</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

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style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> David Auker

[mailto:Dav-@Hevanet.Com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 10:03

AM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of

racing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Our racing social fabric IS wonderful, but, however,

this IS racing, not touring. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I, for one, will thank promoters for making the extra

effort to make their race special by providing cash prizes. The deeper,

the better. <STRONG>Thank you, sponsors </STRONG>(and <STRONG>thank you,

promoters </STRONG>for all that legwork and begging)!</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thrill of victory, gas in the tank...these go hand in

hand.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>When I promoted Piece of Cake (20+years), I made it a

part of my work to solicit prizes (mostly cash). Fortunately, I had no

police or road fees, so my expenses may have been a bit less than some

promoters incur. Money was always made on both sides of the promotion:

racers (mostly) and organizers.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I hope with all this talk about "I don't need no prize$"

that you WILL value the races that chose to stimulate performance with a

little cash on the line. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Am I alone in this, or, have any of you ever won some

money that really added to your exuberance over a fine

performance?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>David</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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David Auker

2002-08-02

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Our racing social fabric IS wonderful, but, however, this IS racing, not touring.

I, for one, will thank promoters for making the extra effort to make their race special by providing cash prizes. The deeper, the better. Thank you, sponsors (and thank you, promoters for all that legwork and begging)!

Thrill of victory, gas in the tank...these go hand in hand.

When I promoted Piece of Cake (20+years), I made it a part of my work to solicit prizes (mostly cash). Fortunately, I had no police or road fees, so my expenses may have been a bit less than some promoters incur. Money was always made on both sides of the promotion: racers (mostly) and organizers.

I hope with all this talk about "I don't need no prize$" that you WILL value the races that chose to stimulate performance with a little cash on the line.

Am I alone in this, or, have any of you ever won some money that really added to your exuberance over a fine performance?

David

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<BODY>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Our racing social fabric IS wonderful, but, however, this

IS racing, not touring. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I, for one, will thank promoters for making the extra

effort to make their race special by providing cash prizes. The deeper,

the better. <STRONG>Thank you, sponsors </STRONG>(and <STRONG>thank you,

promoters </STRONG>for all that legwork and begging)!</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thrill of victory, gas in the tank...these go hand in

hand.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>When I promoted Piece of Cake (20+years), I made it a part

of my work to solicit prizes (mostly cash). Fortunately, I had no police

or road fees, so my expenses may have been a bit less than some promoters

incur. Money was always made on both sides of the promotion: racers

(mostly) and organizers.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I hope with all this talk about "I don't need no prize$"

that you WILL value the races that chose to stimulate performance with a little

cash on the line. </FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Am I alone in this, or, have any of you ever won some

money that really added to your exuberance over a fine performance?</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial>David</FONT></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

</BODY></HTML>

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Schreck, George

2002-08-02

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But Mike, the only way I can justify spending over $30,000 on bicycles,

another $15,000 on equipment, 15 hours per week training , and $150 per

month on coaching is to win $10 occasionally. A $10 return on that

investment is very attractive.

Despite the facetious nature of the preceding comment, sadly, given the

performance of my 401K, that may actually be true.

                          George C. Schreck

                           Phone: (503) 813-7211

                           Fax: (503) 813-7190

-----Original Message-----

From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:12 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of racing

Jonathan Puskas wrote:

"The simplest way to deal with this is for promoters to stop giving away

cash and prizes and return to giving medals, ribbons, and trophies...

It would save the promoters countless hours spent looking for sponsors and

would keep racers focused on racing for the joy of competition rather than

ultimately trivial amounts of money."

I couldn't agree more. I would estimate that race organizers spend most of

their limited organizational time and energy on producing a prize list.

This detracts from being able to do other things to improve their events,

like promotion to potential riders, the media and the general public, race

day amenities, etc.

Last year I proposed that OBRA adopt a rule that prohibited cash prizes

unless the field was limited to Cat 1/2; merchandise prizes only for fields

limited to Cat 1/2/3 and only prizes of non-monetary value for fields open

to other categories. It was my thinking that this would improve the quality

of race promotion by freeing organizers to spend more time and energy on

things other than prize list. This would also increase the prize list for

Cat 1/2 riders, the only field where prize list may actually have some

effect on participation. In addition it would create an incentive for

people to upgrade in category rather than staying permanent Cat 3s. There

was general agreement with the concept at the OBRA annual meeting but people

did not want to force race organizers to do this by adopting a rule

stipulating this. Unfortunately, race organizers have ignored the concept

and continued to prize the slower categories and masters groups where there

is little evidence that the prize improves the competition in any way.

Mike Murray

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<TITLE>RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of racing</TITLE>

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>But Mike, the only way I can justify spending over $30,000 on bicycles, another $15,000 on equipment, 15 hours per week training , and $150 per month on coaching is to win $10 occasionally. A $10 return on that investment is very attractive.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Despite the facetious nature of the preceding comment, sadly, given the performance of my 401K, that may actually be true.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>                          George C. Schreck</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>                           Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>                           Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT>

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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: mike.m-@obra.org [<A HREF="mailto:mike.m-@obra.org">mailto:mike.m-@obra.org</A>]</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:12 AM</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: ob-@topica.com</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Cost of racing</FONT>

</P>

<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Jonathan Puskas wrote:</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>"The simplest way to deal with this is for promoters to stop giving away</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>cash and prizes and return to giving medals, ribbons, and trophies...</FONT>

</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>It would save the promoters countless hours spent looking for sponsors and</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>would keep racers focused on racing for the joy of competition rather than</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>ultimately trivial amounts of money."</FONT>

</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I couldn't agree more. I would estimate that race organizers spend most of</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>their limited organizational time and energy on producing a prize list.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>This detracts from being able to do other things to improve their events,</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>like promotion to potential riders, the media and the general public, race</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>day amenities, etc.</FONT>

</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Last year I proposed that OBRA adopt a rule that prohibited cash prizes</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>unless the field was limited to Cat 1/2; merchandise prizes only for fields</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>limited to Cat 1/2/3 and only prizes of non-monetary value for fields open</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>to other categories. It was my thinking that this would improve the quality</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>of race promotion by freeing organizers to spend more time and energy on</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>things other than prize list. This would also increase the prize list for</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Cat 1/2 riders, the only field where prize list may actually have some</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>effect on participation. In addition it would create an incentive for</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>people to upgrade in category rather than staying permanent Cat 3s. There</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>was general agreement with the concept at the OBRA annual meeting but people</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>did not want to force race organizers to do this by adopting a rule</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>stipulating this. Unfortunately, race organizers have ignored the concept</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>and continued to prize the slower categories and masters groups where there</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>is little evidence that the prize improves the competition in any way.</FONT>

</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Mike Murray</FONT>

</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</FONT>

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C23A41.306A8E10--

Michael O'Hair

2002-08-02

Mike Murray wrote:

I couldn't agree more. I would estimate that race organizers spend most

of

their limited organizational time and energy on producing a prize list.

Having a "checkered background" as I do, I have noted the same attitude in

many bike racers that I saw in pool players: I win cash prize, therefore I

must be a pro. Another parallel is that many of the younger (?)

participants take minimum wage jobs in the biz to get discounts and stay "in

the biz." It is a form of madness. The benefit of bike racing is that you

get a lot more fresh air.

We do this stuff because we're competitive and we love riding our bikes.

For an excellent book that deals with the root causes of "why," see Jane

Goodall's

"Through A Window."

If promoters want to hand out cash, parts, or discount cards at Starbucks,

it's all the same to me. But then it all looks about the same from the back

of the pack. :)

Mark Greenwood

2002-08-01

HAH! That's a good one!

Oh... uhhh... hmmm. This guy was serious?

How many of us does he think end up winning our entry fees back? Grow

up already! The very mindset shows just how much of a priority this

individual places on racing...

What about chipping in just for the sake of seeing to it that we HAVE a

bike racing community at all? At the beginning of this year when I had

back surgery, I knew I wouldn't plan on racing this season but I kept up

my OBRA membership and my team dues because I figured race or not, I

wanted to do even that little bit to keep these fine organizations

going.

Thanks Candi, Mike, the promoters, and everybody else in OBRA that makes

things happen! I don't know too many other places where a 36-year-old

novice who'd never raced before two years ago could get involved with

such a high-caliber group of people. It's been an experience worth way

more than the dues and entry fees!

Mark

Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn wrote:

I just read a forwarded message from a race organizer. He had received

a

message from a cat 4 rider stating that the entry fee far outweighed the

prize list and was not going to participate due to the low chance of

winning

his entry fee back.

Does he have any idea of the cost of putting on an event? Absolutely

not!

The expenses to put on road and mtn bike races far exceeds what most of

you

imagine. Let's take a standard road event. With an attendance of 150

riders

for 5 categories

$1.40 per day per rider for Insurance $210

$1.00 per day per rider for OBRA Surcharge 150

Truck Rental 50

6 Officials with mileage and meals 480

Portapotties 200

Postage for Flyers 481

Paper for flyers 15

Printing 50

Pins 15

First Aid 75

Advertising in cycling mag 150

lunches for volunteers 150

Venue/Road use fees 150

Police 300

Total 2250

then the miscellaneos expenses that crop up like barricade rentals,

signs

that have to be posted 1 to 2 weeks ahead of time. This does not

account

for any prize list, ribbons or trophies or any payment to the organizer

for

doing all the foot work that can take up to 45-90 days ahead of time.

If you are going to races to make money, then get a job! When you do go

to

races thank everyone invloved. We have a VERY active race community and

if

some of the race organizers actually make a buck for their time spent on

our

enjoyment then congratulations!

Candi

Roger-@lucy.com

2002-08-01

I know this is a dead horse we've beat over and over, but how many of the

hundreds of entrants in our races expect this to be a profitable or even

break even affair ?

Let's see for the cost of a couple of races per week, and a team membership,

I'll spend a couple hundred bucks this year. For my "investment", I have met

a lot of really nice people, made some good friends, found a couple of

business contacts, and I am in the best physical shape I have ever been in

my life.

A couple of contrasts:

o I spent more money in MN racing a whole

lot fewer and less professionally run

USCF races in 1996.

o I've spent more at my local bike shop this month

than I will on race entry fees, team memberships

and gas money to get to and from non-ridable races.

I for one am very grateful that we have these opportunities within the bike

racing community. And it really gets my goat that we rehash this issue over

and over.

Now, it is sunny and cool out, let's RIDE !

-r

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:11 AM

To: obra; obrarace

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cost of racing

I just read a forwarded message from a race organizer. He had received a

message from a cat 4 rider stating that the entry fee far outweighed the

prize list and was not going to participate due to the low chance of winning

his entry fee back.

Does he have any idea of the cost of putting on an event? Absolutely not!

The expenses to put on road and mtn bike races far exceeds what most of you

imagine. Let's take a standard road event. With an attendance of 150 riders

for 5 categories

$1.40 per day per rider for Insurance $210

$1.00 per day per rider for OBRA Surcharge 150

Truck Rental 50

6 Officials with mileage and meals 480

Portapotties 200

Postage for Flyers 481

Paper for flyers 15

Printing 50

Pins 15

First Aid 75

Advertising in cycling mag 150

lunches for volunteers 150

Venue/Road use fees 150

Police 300

Total 2250

then the miscellaneos expenses that crop up like barricade rentals, signs

that have to be posted 1 to 2 weeks ahead of time. This does not account

for any prize list, ribbons or trophies or any payment to the organizer for

doing all the foot work that can take up to 45-90 days ahead of time.

If you are going to races to make money, then get a job! When you do go to

races thank everyone invloved. We have a VERY active race community and if

some of the race organizers actually make a buck for their time spent on our

enjoyment then congratulations!

Candi

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Kiss-@cs.com

2002-08-01

I would like to thank everyone for a great year of racing so far and look

forward to great races in the coming weeks, including the Crawfish crit,

Gresham crit, rose pedal crit, Eugene weekend, camas weekend, and the others

I have not mentioned. Thanks in advance for everything! I love racing in

Oregon and the surrounding states, although Oregon takes the cake! Candi

does a great job and so do all the other OBRA officials. They do an awesome

job of putting things together to make things safe and fun for all of us. I

don't win money every weekend and neither do 95% of the field I race with or

the guys in other fields, if your only in it for the money, you got into the

wrong sport! I would like to again say a big thanks to everyone who

organizes races, to all the volunteers, and to everyone who races. These are

the people that make racing fun and enjoyable. I hope to see you all out

watching on Friday night the 9th of August, this crit looks to be a very fast

and fun.

Scott Jones

Cat 3

Manager Kissler's Cyclery

Bruce Harmon

2002-08-01

Amen to Candi's description of the cost of race promotion.

Bruce Harmon

Team Rose city

Mt. Tabor-Rose festival race promoter

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn <cmur-@obra.org>

Reply-To: cmur-@obra.org

Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:11:03 -0700

To: obra <ob-@topica.com>, obrarace <obra-@topica.com>

Subject: Cost of racing

I just read a forwarded message from a race organizer. He had received a

message from a cat 4 rider stating that the entry fee far outweighed the

prize list and was not going to participate due to the low chance of winning

his entry fee back.

Does he have any idea of the cost of putting on an event?   Absolutely not!

The expenses to put on road and mtn bike races far exceeds what most of you

imagine. Let's take a standard road event. With an attendance of 150 riders

for 5 categories

$1.40 per day per rider for Insurance        $210

$1.00 per day per rider for OBRA Surcharge     150

Truck Rental                         50

6 Officials with mileage and meals            480

Portapotties                        200

Postage for Flyers                    481

Paper for flyers                         15

Printing                            50

Pins                                 15

First Aid                            75

Advertising in cycling mag                150

lunches for volunteers                    150

Venue/Road use fees                    150

Police                            300

Total                2250

then the miscellaneos expenses that crop up like barricade rentals, signs

that have to be posted 1 to 2 weeks ahead of time. This does not account

for any prize list, ribbons or trophies or any payment to the organizer for

doing all the foot work that can take up to 45-90 days ahead of time.

If you are going to races to make money, then get a job! When you do go to

races thank everyone invloved. We have a VERY active race community and if

some of the race organizers actually make a buck for their time spent on our

enjoyment then congratulations!

Candi

Salvatore Collura

2002-08-01

As a racer, I think "A cheap winter vest for first place?!?!?!?"

As a promoter, I think "Hmmm, where can I get a cheap winter vest to give to

the first place rider . . ."

-sal

_________________________________________________________________

Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

keith prior

2002-08-01

For me, just the chance to be captured by Cheryl Wilson's talented lens was reason enough to go race!

:)

-K

-----Original Message-----

From: Jonathan Puskas [mailto:impu-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:20 PM

To: dansilv-@attbi.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cost of racing

To add to Dan's comment...

For winning Pacific Crest 1/2 Ironman in June, Steve

Larsen (Yes, THE Steve Larsen--Top-10 at IM World

Championships, NORBA National Champion, Motorola Road

Pro, Etc.)...

1. A bottle of wine

2. A framed race poster

3. Free entry to next year's race

When asked if he'd be back next season...He simply

smiled and said he enjoyed the race.

Let's just concede that the rider is relatively

inexperienced/young and made a mistake. The simplest

way to deal with this is for promoters to stop giving

away cash and prizes and return to giving medals,

ribbons, and trophies...

It would save the promoters countless hours spent

looking for sponsors and would keep racers focused on

racing for the joy of competition rather than

ultimately trivial amounts of money.

Cheers,

Puskas

HFV

--- dansilv-@attbi.com wrote:

This joker has obviously never raced in any other

sport

besides bicycling. Either that or he's world class

in

whatever he was doing before cycling and is used to

winning every time. But I doubt that. I've been in

all

kinds of races, ranging from 5k runs to 90k cross

country ski races to bike races to triathlons and

will

tell you that the sport with the least expensive

race

fees is bicycle racing, and, ironically, offers the

competitors the best chance to win their money back.

Tell this guy to sign up for the Pacific Crest

Triathlon

next year. He'll pay five times as much for entry

as

any bike race (yup, it's $100.00 to race the Pac

Crest)

but unless he's Steve Larson's caliber, he'll go

home

with only a T-shirt and sore legs to show for his

efforts. Tell him to upgrade to cat 1 and start

winning

if he wants to do this for profit.

Don't let clowns like this get under your skin, race

promoters. Keep up the good work. For every

whiner,

there are at least 20 people who appreciate your

efforts

and race as a hobby.

nuff said

I just read a forwarded message from a race

organizer. He had received a

message from a cat 4 rider stating that the entry

fee far outweighed the

prize list and was not going to participate due to

the low chance of winning

his entry fee back.

Does he have any idea of the cost of putting on an

event? Absolutely not!

The expenses to put on road and mtn bike races far

exceeds what most of you

imagine. Let's take a standard road event. With

an attendance of 150 riders

for 5 categories

$1.40 per day per rider for Insurance $210

$1.00 per day per rider for OBRA Surcharge 150

Truck Rental 50

6 Officials with mileage and meals 480

Portapotties 200

Postage for Flyers 481

Paper for flyers 15

Printing 50

Pins 15

First Aid 75

Advertising in cycling mag 150

lunches for volunteers 150

Venue/Road use fees 150

Police 300

Total 2250

then the miscellaneos expenses that crop up like

barricade rentals, signs

that have to be posted 1 to 2 weeks ahead of time.

This does not account

for any prize list, ribbons or trophies or any

payment to the organizer for

doing all the foot work that can take up to 45-90

days ahead of time.

If you are going to races to make money, then get

a job! When you do go to

races thank everyone invloved. We have a VERY

active race community and if

some of the race organizers actually make a buck

for their time spent on our

enjoyment then congratulations!

Candi

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to

ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to

ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

=====

Jonathan C. Puskas

159 Fifth Street

Lake Oswego, OR 97034

impu-@yahoo.com

"If you're gonna charge...charge hard!"

__________________________________________________

Do You Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better

http://health.yahoo.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Jonathan Puskas

2002-08-01

To add to Dan's comment...

For winning Pacific Crest 1/2 Ironman in June, Steve

Larsen (Yes, THE Steve Larsen--Top-10 at IM World

Championships, NORBA National Champion, Motorola Road

Pro, Etc.)...

1. A bottle of wine

2. A framed race poster

3. Free entry to next year's race

When asked if he'd be back next season...He simply

smiled and said he enjoyed the race.

Let's just concede that the rider is relatively

inexperienced/young and made a mistake. The simplest

way to deal with this is for promoters to stop giving

away cash and prizes and return to giving medals,

ribbons, and trophies...

It would save the promoters countless hours spent

looking for sponsors and would keep racers focused on

racing for the joy of competition rather than

ultimately trivial amounts of money.

Cheers,

Puskas

HFV

--- dansilv-@attbi.com wrote:

This joker has obviously never raced in any other

sport

besides bicycling. Either that or he's world class

in

whatever he was doing before cycling and is used to

winning every time. But I doubt that. I've been in

all

kinds of races, ranging from 5k runs to 90k cross

country ski races to bike races to triathlons and

will

tell you that the sport with the least expensive

race

fees is bicycle racing, and, ironically, offers the

competitors the best chance to win their money back.

Tell this guy to sign up for the Pacific Crest

Triathlon

next year. He'll pay five times as much for entry

as

any bike race (yup, it's $100.00 to race the Pac

Crest)

but unless he's Steve Larson's caliber, he'll go

home

with only a T-shirt and sore legs to show for his

efforts. Tell him to upgrade to cat 1 and start

winning

if he wants to do this for profit.

Don't let clowns like this get under your skin, race

promoters. Keep up the good work. For every

whiner,

there are at least 20 people who appreciate your

efforts

and race as a hobby.

nuff said

I just read a forwarded message from a race