Dan H

I once worked Tour of El Salvador. You wouldnt believe some of the
junk that was in that race.

Dan Houghton
Southwest Bicycle, LLC
3605 SW Multnomah Blvd
503-246-0333
www.swbicycle.com

On Nov 4, 2010, at 8:44 AM, "Mike Murray" wrote:

> The people that propose this sort of thing do it because they think
> that high priced equipment is something that is keeping people from
> competing. They wish to diminish that effect. The problem is that
> they have a belief that elite competition is not possible or
> equitable if some people can have expensive stuff and others can
> not. The first flaw in the argument is that this stuff has to be
> expensive. Obree showed us that this does not have to be true. The
> second flaw is over estimating the value of various pieces of
> equipment towards producing a good performance. High performance
> equipment can make a rider faster and, given that the difference
> between the top riders is generally small, might make a difference
> in placing but the absolute improvement is smaller than the
> difference between a good day and a bad day.
>
> People that want to push equipment limitation rules generally want
> to diminish the importance of equipment. Unfortunately the effect is
> generally just the opposite. Having a prohibition in place creates
> the impression that this stuff really matters.
>
> When you watch elite level junior competitions it is remarkable how
> much really expensive equipment there is under even very young
> riders. It is also remarkable that there is little correlation
> between how expensive the equipment is and how well the rider places.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Schauer
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:38:13
> To: cmurray@obra.org
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] USAC proposed Cyclocross Changes
>
> Hard to imagine they will refuse to permit any juniors to use either
> Tubular or tubeless tires in any USAC event. With the general
> acceptance and reasonable price options available in both (especially
> for ccx or mtb) I don't understand the reasoning. Isn't tubeless more
> common at mtb races now? I don't think there were many juniors at ccx
> natz last that didn't have at least one set of basic tubular race
> wheels. While they are at it maybe they should ban the use if STI
> shifting, gamins, or any carbon components, etc! Also I think this
> would bar the use of discs or any real aero wheels for time trials for
> juniors too? I get the desire to not make it an arms race, but is this
> the way?
>
> Can I say how much I love OBRA!!?
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:30 PM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.cxmagazine.com/editorial-analysis-usa-cycling-proposes-big-rule-c
>> hanges-2010
>> Candi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

tackyglueit

doesn't obra do that with the clydesdale category, (no offiense aaron
coker)?

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 12:26 PM, wrote:

> Basically it comes down to the size of the 'engine'. WHat next? They
> going to start
> legislating riders into Motor size categories
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 15:44:16 +0000, "Mike Murray"
> wrote:
> > The people that propose this sort of thing do it because they think
> > that high priced equipment is something that is keeping people from
> > competing. They wish to diminish that effect. The problem is that they
> > have a belief that elite competition is not possible or equitable if
> > some people can have expensive stuff and others can not. The first
> > flaw in the argument is that this stuff has to be expensive. Obree
> > showed us that this does not have to be true. The second flaw is over
> > estimating the value of various pieces of equipment towards producing
> > a good performance. High performance equipment can make a rider faster
> > and, given that the difference between the top riders is generally
> > small, might make a difference in placing but the absolute improvement
> > is smaller than the difference between a good day and a bad day.
> >
> > People that want to push equipment limitation rules generally want to
> > diminish the importance of equipment. Unfortunately the effect is
> > generally just the opposite. Having a prohibition in place creates the
> > impression that this stuff really matters.
> >
> > When you watch elite level junior competitions it is remarkable how
> > much really expensive equipment there is under even very young riders.
> > It is also remarkable that there is little correlation between how
> > expensive the equipment is and how well the rider places.
> > Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Schauer
> > Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:38:13
> > To: cmurray@obra.org
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] USAC proposed Cyclocross Changes
> >
> > Hard to imagine they will refuse to permit any juniors to use either
> > Tubular or tubeless tires in any USAC event. With the general
> > acceptance and reasonable price options available in both (especially
> > for ccx or mtb) I don't understand the reasoning. Isn't tubeless more
> > common at mtb races now? I don't think there were many juniors at ccx
> > natz last that didn't have at least one set of basic tubular race
> > wheels. While they are at it maybe they should ban the use if STI
> > shifting, gamins, or any carbon components, etc! Also I think this
> > would bar the use of discs or any real aero wheels for time trials for
> > juniors too? I get the desire to not make it an arms race, but is this
> > the way?
> >
> > Can I say how much I love OBRA!!?
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > Sent from my mobile device
> >
> > On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:30 PM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> http://www.cxmagazine.com/editorial-analysis-usa-cycling-proposes-big-rule-c
> >> hanges-2010
> >> Candi
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

joec@aracnet.com

Basically it comes down to the size of the 'engine'. WHat next? They
going to start
legislating riders into Motor size categories
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 15:44:16 +0000, "Mike Murray"
wrote:
> The people that propose this sort of thing do it because they think
> that high priced equipment is something that is keeping people from
> competing. They wish to diminish that effect. The problem is that they
> have a belief that elite competition is not possible or equitable if
> some people can have expensive stuff and others can not. The first
> flaw in the argument is that this stuff has to be expensive. Obree
> showed us that this does not have to be true. The second flaw is over
> estimating the value of various pieces of equipment towards producing
> a good performance. High performance equipment can make a rider faster
> and, given that the difference between the top riders is generally
> small, might make a difference in placing but the absolute improvement
> is smaller than the difference between a good day and a bad day.
>
> People that want to push equipment limitation rules generally want to
> diminish the importance of equipment. Unfortunately the effect is
> generally just the opposite. Having a prohibition in place creates the
> impression that this stuff really matters.
>
> When you watch elite level junior competitions it is remarkable how
> much really expensive equipment there is under even very young riders.
> It is also remarkable that there is little correlation between how
> expensive the equipment is and how well the rider places.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Schauer
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:38:13
> To: cmurray@obra.org
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] USAC proposed Cyclocross Changes
>
> Hard to imagine they will refuse to permit any juniors to use either
> Tubular or tubeless tires in any USAC event. With the general
> acceptance and reasonable price options available in both (especially
> for ccx or mtb) I don't understand the reasoning. Isn't tubeless more
> common at mtb races now? I don't think there were many juniors at ccx
> natz last that didn't have at least one set of basic tubular race
> wheels. While they are at it maybe they should ban the use if STI
> shifting, gamins, or any carbon components, etc! Also I think this
> would bar the use of discs or any real aero wheels for time trials for
> juniors too? I get the desire to not make it an arms race, but is this
> the way?
>
> Can I say how much I love OBRA!!?
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:30 PM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.cxmagazine.com/editorial-analysis-usa-cycling-proposes-big-rule-c
>> hanges-2010
>> Candi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Roger Joys

I read these proposals too and came away confused about the rationale. I think Shawn Farrell's commentary is a polite way of saying "someone out there got all cranky over the cost of decently equipped kids gear and they complained. If we vote this down, it's a collective message to that person at large to 'get over it' . "

They were very clear that this was not coming from the board of trustees, rather a member.

My kids are well beyond Juniors and they don't race, so I have no skin in the game.

This just seems silly.

On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Tim Schauer wrote:

> Hard to imagine they will refuse to permit any juniors to use either
> Tubular or tubeless tires in any USAC event. With the general
> acceptance and reasonable price options available in both (especially
> for ccx or mtb) I don't understand the reasoning. Isn't tubeless more
> common at mtb races now? I don't think there were many juniors at ccx
> natz last that didn't have at least one set of basic tubular race
> wheels. While they are at it maybe they should ban the use if STI
> shifting, gamins, or any carbon components, etc! Also I think this
> would bar the use of discs or any real aero wheels for time trials for
> juniors too? I get the desire to not make it an arms race, but is this
> the way?
>
> Can I say how much I love OBRA!!?
>
> Tim
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:30 PM, "Candi Murray" wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.cxmagazine.com/editorial-analysis-usa-cycling-proposes-big-rule-c
>> hanges-2010
>> Candi
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

The people that propose this sort of thing do it because they think that high priced equipment is something that is keeping people from competing. They wish to diminish that effect. The problem is that they have a belief that elite competition is not possible or equitable if some people can have expensive stuff and others can not. The first flaw in the argument is that this stuff has to be expensive. Obree showed us that this does not have to be true. The second flaw is over estimating the value of various pieces of equipment towards producing a good performance. High performance equipment can make a rider faster and, given that the difference between the top riders is generally small, might make a difference in placing but the absolute improvement is smaller than the difference between a good day and a bad day.

People that want to push equipment limitation rules generally want to diminish the importance of equipment. Unfortunately the effect is generally just the opposite. Having a prohibition in place creates the impression that this stuff really matters.

When you watch elite level junior competitions it is remarkable how much really expensive equipment there is under even very young riders. It is also remarkable that there is little correlation between how expensive the equipment is and how well the rider places.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Schauer
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:38:13
To: cmurray@obra.org
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] USAC proposed Cyclocross Changes

Hard to imagine they will refuse to permit any juniors to use either
Tubular or tubeless tires in any USAC event. With the general
acceptance and reasonable price options available in both (especially
for ccx or mtb) I don't understand the reasoning. Isn't tubeless more
common at mtb races now? I don't think there were many juniors at ccx
natz last that didn't have at least one set of basic tubular race
wheels. While they are at it maybe they should ban the use if STI
shifting, gamins, or any carbon components, etc! Also I think this
would bar the use of discs or any real aero wheels for time trials for
juniors too? I get the desire to not make it an arms race, but is this
the way?

Can I say how much I love OBRA!!?

Tim

Sent from my mobile device

On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:30 PM, "Candi Murray" wrote:

>
> http://www.cxmagazine.com/editorial-analysis-usa-cycling-proposes-big-rule-c
> hanges-2010
> Candi
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Tim Schauer

Hard to imagine they will refuse to permit any juniors to use either
Tubular or tubeless tires in any USAC event. With the general
acceptance and reasonable price options available in both (especially
for ccx or mtb) I don't understand the reasoning. Isn't tubeless more
common at mtb races now? I don't think there were many juniors at ccx
natz last that didn't have at least one set of basic tubular race
wheels. While they are at it maybe they should ban the use if STI
shifting, gamins, or any carbon components, etc! Also I think this
would bar the use of discs or any real aero wheels for time trials for
juniors too? I get the desire to not make it an arms race, but is this
the way?

Can I say how much I love OBRA!!?

Tim

Sent from my mobile device

On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:30 PM, "Candi Murray" wrote:

>
> http://www.cxmagazine.com/editorial-analysis-usa-cycling-proposes-big-rule-c
> hanges-2010
> Candi
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Candi Murray

http://www.cxmagazine.com/editorial-analysis-usa-cycling-proposes-big-rule-c
hanges-2010
Candi