Mike Murray

Rick is correct. There are a lot more 40+ slower riders who will be
discouraged by inclusion of the 35-40 riders than there are 35-40 riders who
will be encouraged by a lowered age limit. The second point is that these
same slower older riders are also discouraged by the faster riders that are
in their age group. This is the reason why a Masters 3/4/5 field will
generally be bigger than a Maters (no category) race.

If you look at the age and category distribution of the OBRA membership you
can see that in general OBRA races are doing a poor job of servicing the
large number of older riders in the slower categories.

Looking at the ages and categories of OBRA members and how many individuals
are in each group it is easy to figure out which field separations will
appeal to the larger market. This data is available to anyone. The
unfortunate thing is that race organizers never look at this data before
deciding which fields they want to run. They just decide by the seat of
their pants. Unfortunately the decisions they then make are colored by
personal perceptions, much like the comments made on this subject on this
list.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Rick C Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 09:28 AM
To: Jeff Fuchs
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's categories

Personally I like the 40+ age separation. I'll concede that it's likely
that 35+ yields bigger Masters fields but I don't see that as being the
best way to get them. It just cannibalizes other fields. And sometimes
those crossing over are still very capable racers in their category -
look at the Cascade Classic of a few years back for example. There were
a few guys - whose names I think need no mention - that could still be
competitive in the pro field but instead brutalized the Masters race.
Might lapping the field in the first 10 minutes of the crit be a clear
enough indicator of an imbalance? I know first hand of two to three
times as many riders who as a result avoided that particular race in the
following years because of the problem.
That all just adds up to a disincentive for less capable 40+ riders (of
which I include myself) to participate. It's a heck of a lot more fun to
race with a chance of actually being in the race than to be going all
out simply to hang on and finish. An amateur racing organization such as
OBRA must offer challenging events to a wide variety of age and ability
levels. I think the current formula balances that as well as can be.

Rick

Jeff Fuchs wrote:

>Gary,
>
>It's not the speed of the field. Cat. 3's races and Master's 1/2/3
>races are basically the same speed. Its the size of the Master's
>fields. I'd rather finish in 10th out of 80 people than 5th of 20.
>Larger fields are more fun. That being said, Master's races tend to be
>more tactical when there are enough riders to make it a road race.
>
>There are plenty of fast master's racer in OBRA, but the Master's
>fields this year have been really small. I was really disappointed this
>year when I showed up to Cherry pie and there were 28 racers in the
>master's 1/2/3 category. As a result I raced cat. 3's at the BB's and I
>will race cat. 3's at Willamette.
>
>If the races were 35+ I bet there would be larger fields.
>
>-Jeff
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Tim Schauer

Okay,

I can't help myself...I toss my two cents...and a little humor for good measure.

As Cat 3 Master, who will turn 40 this year (October), I can finally race in the 40+ masters races again. When I turned 35, OBRA ran a lot of 35+ masters races, so I got to jump in the Masters races for the first time then too. The fields were bigger in the 35+ then than the 40+ now, I thought compared to the Cat 3's at the time I wouldn't say it was better or worse, faster or slower, harder or easier just different. Then OBRA went to mostly 40+ Master races and I went back to the Cat 3 racing. Again, Now in the 40+ field I would say Masters racing is just different, not faster or harder or slower or easier, just different. Personally, I like it. Some of the races have been overall slower at times than I expected, but not easier. I would however, characterize the Masters races as more tactical, less of a strictly physical battle. There is more a feeling of a chess match with some extreme physical stress at times, but not all the time. My Cat 3 racing experience last year (for me) was more a physical challenge to hang on all the time, with difficulty to even navigate to the front, and therefore less tactical opportunity (for me). I guess I have finally come the reality that racing my bike is really racing against myself and my own limitations (tactical, physical, or technical skill level) and looking to improve all of them when I choose a field to race in. No matter what field I race in. And, it is nice to have choices!

If you want to compare the Speed of the Masters 40+ versus the speed/fitness of the Masters 35+ populations, one only has to look at the Time Trial results. The 40-49 cats are consistently faster than the 30-39 fields. Let's not even talk about the speed of some of those 50+ guys, Holy cow! I can't wait until I'm 50+ so I can be that fast!! And another thing...some of these so called cat 1/2 racers racing down with the masters is kind of funny, since most every Master's road race I've done this year has a whole group of guys who have already raced the longer Cat 1/2 race before the masters race!! How can we complain about racing against a Cat 1/2 guy in the masters 1/2/3 race who has already raced 70 miles just before his race against some of us Cat3 Masters only racing one race per day?

Obviously....Age doesn't necessarily mean slower....or less fit.

So,...Any talk of a Masters 40+, Cat 3, Clydesdale category at any of the upcoming road races? Huh? Anyone?

-Tim "16th at POC Masters 40+ means no points!" Schauer

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Fuchs
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 7:28 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's categories

Gary,

It's not the speed of the field. Cat. 3's races and Master's 1/2/3 races are basically the same speed. Its the size of the Master's fields. I'd rather finish in 10th out of 80 people than 5th of 20. Larger fields are more fun. That being said, Master's races tend to be more tactical when there are enough riders to make it a road race.

There are plenty of fast master's racer in OBRA, but the Master's fields this year have been really small. I was really disappointed this year when I showed up to Cherry pie and there were 28 racers in the master's 1/2/3 category. As a result I raced cat. 3's at the BB's and I will race cat. 3's at Willamette.

If the races were 35+ I bet there would be larger fields.

-Jeff

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Erik Long

Gee wiz, where could the Cat 3 Masters find a consistently healthy-sized field where they could be competitive and even earn upgrade points? Do we need pictures for this?

Maybe you guys should finally act your age and race based on your abilities with the rest of the Cat 3's. Being older doesn't make you slow or special, it just makes you older. And if you're not strong enough to be competitive with regular Category 3 racers, then train better, Cat down, or suck it up.

I know it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's competition. Stop trying to make it easy.

> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 07:54:27 -0700
> From: junk@sharperphoto.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's categories
>
> Jeff,
>
>
> I too would like larger fields but, you won't get more Master's 3's to race until they feel they can compete.
>
> Greg's point about Willamette a couple of years ago was valid. There were over 40 riders registered for the 3/4 Masters. Isn't that basically a Masters B race?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_________________________________________________________________
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Rick C Johnson

Personally I like the 40+ age separation. I'll concede that it's likely
that 35+ yields bigger Masters fields but I don't see that as being the
best way to get them. It just cannibalizes other fields. And sometimes
those crossing over are still very capable racers in their category -
look at the Cascade Classic of a few years back for example. There were
a few guys - whose names I think need no mention - that could still be
competitive in the pro field but instead brutalized the Masters race.
Might lapping the field in the first 10 minutes of the crit be a clear
enough indicator of an imbalance? I know first hand of two to three
times as many riders who as a result avoided that particular race in the
following years because of the problem.
That all just adds up to a disincentive for less capable 40+ riders (of
which I include myself) to participate. It's a heck of a lot more fun to
race with a chance of actually being in the race than to be going all
out simply to hang on and finish. An amateur racing organization such as
OBRA must offer challenging events to a wide variety of age and ability
levels. I think the current formula balances that as well as can be.

Rick

Jeff Fuchs wrote:

>Gary,
>
>It's not the speed of the field. Cat. 3's races and Master's 1/2/3 races are basically the same speed. Its the size of the Master's fields. I'd rather finish in 10th out of 80 people than 5th of 20. Larger fields are more fun. That being said, Master's races tend to be more tactical when there are enough riders to make it a road race.
>
>There are plenty of fast master's racer in OBRA, but the Master's fields this year have been really small. I was really disappointed this year when I showed up to Cherry pie and there were 28 racers in the master's 1/2/3 category. As a result I raced cat. 3's at the BB's and I will race cat. 3's at Willamette.
>
>If the races were 35+ I bet there would be larger fields.
>
>-Jeff
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>

gschreckchat@comcast.net

Of course, unless they start racing with people faster than they are now, they never will be able to compete. Racing in your comfort zone is never going to make you faster, nor will merely sitting all day in an easy field just following wheels and waiting for the sprint.

--

George Schreck
gschreckchat@comcast.net
(503) 502-0425

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Gary Cornilles

> Jeff,
>
>
> I too would like larger fields but, you won't get more Master's 3's to race
> until they feel they can compete.
>
> Greg's point about Willamette a couple of years ago was valid. There were over
> 40 riders registered for the 3/4 Masters. Isn't that basically a Masters B
> race?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Melissa Boyd

I'm sure it's a matter of personal preference. I'd rather come in 10th in a
field of 20 than 10th in a field of 100, and that's because I really don't
like racing in really big fields.

Melissa

On 4/2/08, Gary Cornilles wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
>
> I too would like larger fields but, you won't get more Master's 3's to
> race until they feel they can compete.
>
> Greg's point about Willamette a couple of years ago was valid. There were
> over 40 riders registered for the 3/4 Masters. Isn't that basically a
> Masters B race?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Gary Cornilles

Jeff,

I too would like larger fields but, you won't get more Master's 3's to race until they feel they can compete.

Greg's point about Willamette a couple of years ago was valid. There were over 40 riders registered for the 3/4 Masters. Isn't that basically a Masters B race?

Jeff Fuchs

Gary,

It's not the speed of the field. Cat. 3's races and Master's 1/2/3 races are basically the same speed. Its the size of the Master's fields. I'd rather finish in 10th out of 80 people than 5th of 20. Larger fields are more fun. That being said, Master's races tend to be more tactical when there are enough riders to make it a road race.

There are plenty of fast master's racer in OBRA, but the Master's fields this year have been really small. I was really disappointed this year when I showed up to Cherry pie and there were 28 racers in the master's 1/2/3 category. As a result I raced cat. 3's at the BB's and I will race cat. 3's at Willamette.

If the races were 35+ I bet there would be larger fields.

-Jeff

Gary Cornilles

We just have to bust out this topic every year don't we?

Here's my two cents...personally, I don't mind racing with the 1/2's. It's faster, more tactical and far safer than riding in a Cat. 3 field. Whoever said it was like a parade or something must be 420 friendly because I don't how you can average 22+ and wave to the crowd at the same time.

Anyway, do I have a chance of winning? Ummm, no. I've accepted the fact that when I race in a 1/2/3 race I'm filler. I do it for the workout and to make myself a better racer. But, there are people out there that will stay home rather than get popped in the middle of lap 2 and ride back to the car alone (I'm used to it so it doesn't bother me anymore).

That being said however, it would be nice to finish better than 15th...occasionally (yeah, yeah, I know...I should train harder).

So, here's what I'm thinking...what's wrong with the Cyclocross model? Master's A, B and C?

Promoter's don't have to figure out the perfect combination of 4/5 together or 1/2/3 together or 3/4. Just meet the age requirement whatever that is. That's another topic all by itself but, with an ABC format, what difference does it make?

Would it be hard to monitor the fields and upgrade appropriately? Doesn't seem particularly difficult to administer and seems to work pretty well for the Pyscho-Cross crowd. It would be the most inclusive of all formats and give anyone with a desire to race a place to compete against similar talent (or lack of, in my case).

p.s. If you're looking to upgrade...race your category.

Reid, Pam

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Okay I have to speak out for the Master Women. We too would like to have a

consistent master women field. We too have full time jobs and children to

manage with very little time to train. I actually think that is the primary

reason more women do not race. They can not do it all and I still think

women have the primary responsibility of kids in our society, there are

exceptions but it is not the rule. We usually have one choice of category

to race - "Women "and occasionally we have a Cat 4 women field. If I give

up my job and kids to train I can race cat 3 but I am not willing to do that

and thus have not raced much this year so it would be nice to be able to

race a master women fields especially as I continue to get older.   Yes the

men have larger turnouts at races but I think the Swan Island Classic has

shown two years in a row that if you offer the women the categories they

will come out to race. I would like to see masters categories for men and

women offered consistently at races. Pam



-----Original Message-----

From: micro-@aol.com [mailto:micro-@aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:07 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Time for my 2 cents.



OK, here is the deal.

I am 41 years old. I know what it takes to get fast, I just do not have the

time for it very often anymore. So for about 10 weeks a year I have blown

off my family, slacked on my job, and mustered up the time to get myself fit

enough to be competitive in a Cat 1/2 race (and we are not talking

Willamette or Cascade here). During that time I race Cat 1/2. Unfortunately

there is another 16 or so weeks to the season. During that time I can barely

sit in the 1/2 field and certainly won't be "racing" in it. I would still

like to race, and the Masters category is my best option. Believe me, as

soon as I am strong enough to dominate the masters, I am back in the 1/2

field.



I also believe that some of the 3/4 Masters actually enjoy being in a race

with the Yenne's, Auker's, and Sanborn's out there. If they don't they do

always have the option of racing in the open 3/4 races.



Mike





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.



To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com



To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com









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<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">





<META content="MSHTML 5.00.3504.2500" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>

<BODY>

<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=367332314-07082002>Okay I

have to speak out for the Master Women. We too would like to have a

consistent master women field. We too have full time jobs and children to manage

with very little time to train. I actually think that is the primary

reason more women do not race. They can not do it all and I still

think women have the primary responsibility of kids in our society, there are

exceptions but it is not the rule.  We usually have one choice of category

to race - "Women "and occasionally we have a Cat 4 women field.  If I give

up my job and kids to train I can race cat 3 but I am not willing to do that

and  thus have not raced much this year so it would be nice to be able

to race a master women fields especially as I continue to get older.  

Yes the men have larger turnouts at races but I think the Swan Island Classic

has shown two years in a row that if you offer the women the categories they

will come out to race.  I would like to see masters categories for men and

women offered consistently at races.  Pam</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> micro-@aol.com

[mailto:micro-@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:07

PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's

Categories<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>Time

for my 2 cents. <BR><BR>OK, here is the deal. <BR>I am 41 years old. I know

what it takes to get fast, I just do not have the time for it very often

anymore. So for about 10 weeks a year I have blown off my family, slacked on

my job, and mustered up the time to get myself fit enough to be competitive in

a Cat 1/2 race (and we are not talking Willamette or Cascade here). During

that time I race Cat 1/2. Unfortunately there is another 16 or so weeks to the

season. During that time I can barely sit in the 1/2 field and certainly won't

be "racing" in it. I would still like to race, and the Masters category is my

best option. Believe me, as soon as I am strong enough to dominate the

masters, I am back in the 1/2 field. <BR><BR>I also believe that some of the

3/4 Masters actually enjoy being in a race with the Yenne's, Auker's, and

Sanborn's out there. If they don't they do always have the option of racing in

the open 3/4 races. <BR><BR>Mike <BR><BR></FONT><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT>





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micro-@aol.com

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Time for my 2 cents.



OK, here is the deal.

I am 41 years old. I know what it takes to get fast, I just do not have the

time for it very often anymore. So for about 10 weeks a year I have blown off

my family, slacked on my job, and mustered up the time to get myself fit

enough to be competitive in a Cat 1/2 race (and we are not talking Willamette

or Cascade here). During that time I race Cat 1/2. Unfortunately there is

another 16 or so weeks to the season. During that time I can barely sit in

the 1/2 field and certainly won't be "racing" in it. I would still like to

race, and the Masters category is my best option. Believe me, as soon as I am

strong enough to dominate the masters, I am back in the 1/2 field.



I also believe that some of the 3/4 Masters actually enjoy being in a race

with the Yenne's, Auker's, and Sanborn's out there. If they don't they do

always have the option of racing in the open 3/4 races.



Mike











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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Time for my 2 cents.

<BR>

<BR>OK, here is the deal.

<BR>I am 41 years old. I know what it takes to get fast, I just do not have the time for it very often anymore. So for about 10 weeks a year I have blown off my family, slacked on my job, and mustered up the time to get myself fit enough to be competitive in a Cat 1/2 race (and we are not talking Willamette or Cascade here). During that time I race Cat 1/2. Unfortunately there is another 16 or so weeks to the season. During that time I can barely sit in the 1/2 field and certainly won't be "racing" in it. I would still like to race, and the Masters category is my best option. Believe me, as soon as I am strong enough to dominate the masters, I am back in the 1/2 field.

<BR>

<BR>I also believe that some of the 3/4 Masters actually enjoy being in a race with the Yenne's, Auker's, and Sanborn's out there. If they don't they do always have the option of racing in the open 3/4 races.

<BR>

<BR>Mike

<BR>

<BR></FONT>





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Jerry Powell

Well, all this time I thought the point of racing in age-graded

events was to compete with the best (as well as the rest) of my age

cohort... There are too few races that address the differences

between riding in a field that averages 35 years of age and in one

that averages 55, or 45 for that matter. An entirely biased

observation (my own) is that when there are multiple masters races

offered, the number of participants increases more than the field

size on any one of those races is cut... And us really old guys get

to race against rivals from twenty years ago... when we were already

old farts racing for the fun of it. Sure, I enjoy going out in a

huge pack in an open race... and hanging in by the skin of my teeth

(or not). But I'm not there as a competitor... I'm there to see if I

can still hang. It's a different thing.



Racing masters can be humbling. Particularly when you think you're

pretty fast (for your age) and go to a national or international race

and get your butt kicked by some old guy. Know what, it makes you

train after it makes you mad.



The theory is that a cat three rider, or any other cat... should be

competitive in a race of that grade... regardless or age or gender.

If you can't, ask for a downgrade. Masters racing shouldn't be

looked at as inferior racing, in fact, it tends to be high skill even

if the performance is a bit degraded by age. Look at the masters

times from Nationals... Road or track... and tell me the competition

is inferior.



Richard, the point is that to many promoters are 1) afraid nobody

will show, and 2) unwilling to spread their time and resources over

an even longer day with little return. Seems to me to be a marketing

problem.



Jerry





At 3:40 PM +0000 8/6/02, Ron Frerichs wrote:

 I'll go ahead and beat this to death...

If this race was representative, 12% of all Masters participate as a

Master in most races. And only 6% of the CAT 2 Masters race as a

Master. And I would guess that number is even smaller for a race

where a Championship title is not on the line.



People get to CAT 2 because they have the physical ability, the time

to train, and they enjoy the competition at that level. So people

that feel they still can train and race as a CAT 2, do that,

regardless of age.



But not every rider can keep that up as they get older. Masters

that are CAT 2 based on what they did 10 years ago, probably race

Masters when they can, and probably don't race when the Masters

category is closed to them.



Open the Masters fields to all Categories and you give old guys that

used to be fast a chance to race and be competitive.



Just one more comment...Since when is racing supposed to be comfortable?







From: mike.m-@obra.org

Reply-To: mike.m-@obra.org

To: OBRA Remailer <ob-@topica.com>

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:56:57 -0700



Not to beat this to death but more statistics.



There are 396 40+ male OBRA members, 34 of whom are Cat 2 or better. A turn

out of 48 then represents 12% of the potential market, which is about the

average turn out per capita. Of the riders in the top 15 only 2 riders are

category 2 or better and it looks like they were the only Cat 2 or better

riders in the field.



The bottom line is that most of this stuff is predictable. In all

categories roughly 10-20% of the available market, as identified by annual

OBRA members, will turn up for a given race. This number takes into account

that there will be some out of state riders and some single day members.

Race organizers can use this information to structure and predict the size

of fields, but they rarely do.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Cornilles, Gary (LMCO) [mailto:Gary.Co-@nike.com]

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 12:38 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Richard,



Using your theory that Master's racing was designed to provide opportunities

as age reduced our performance, how do you think those of us that are

35+/Category 3 or 4 feel about having to race against Cat 1 or 2 Masters?

Is this an opportunity for us? Age aside, I thought the idea of categories

is to provide each of us with an opportunity to compete against riders with

similar abilities. I wouldn't begrudge you for not wanting to ride with

younger, more fit Category 1 & 2's. Let's be honest about it, you race in

the Master's to be more "comfortable" yourself.



In an ideal world there would be separate Master's categories for all

abilities but, the promoter's bottom line is about attracting the largest

number of riders and providing a competitive atmosphere to continue to

attract riders. Using Mike's (OBRA) numbers that would leave about 49

riders statewide for you to compete against, where there are over 345 in

category 3 and 4. That's a big demographic, why include 49 at the risk of

excluding 345? Do the math, it's simple. More riders=more $$$=more events.

At this weekend's State Championship (which by the way is a great venue,

Thanks Chad!) 48 riders showed up to race in the 40-49 category (almost as

large as the senior

men). The largest field I've seen in a 40+ event. I'm not sure of the

breakdown but I'm guessing there was only a handful of two's. I'm curious

how many more riders might have showed up had it been limited to 3 or 4's

only?



I'm glad the Eugene Celebration is promoting a category that fits me and my

lesser abilities (and 344 other's). I plan to support it, if it's

successful, it will profit and return. If not...well, that's how supply and

demand works.



Gary C.



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 6:20 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories



Scott:



Are you suggesting the reason cat 1-2's can compete at their respective

levels is because they have more time to train than 3's or racers over 35?

Most racers are over age 30, arguably within the age of those with families

and full-time "real" jobs as you stated. The stereotype that all cat 1's -

2's don't have jobs and ride their bikes all day is silly. I managed to be

a pretty competitive cat 2, 35+ with an average of 8-10 hours a week of

training. Most Cat 3's I know exceed that.



The objective behind masters racing was originally to provide racing

opportunites for competitors as their performance was reduced as a result of

age. What appears to have happened as of late is the formation of a

"comfortable" category for older riders who don't want to remain competitve

without the time commitment etc. of the Senior categories. I am all for

that as long as I am included in the "comfortable category". For example, I

would like a Clysdale class for riders over 200 pounds. I mean, I like beer

and pizza, and because I can't train as much as others, it is really unfair

for them to be skinny while I carry 20 extra pounds.



richard



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--

Please note my new personal email address. I will be using the psu

address in the future only for academic correspondence and listserve

traffic.



My new address is... jpow-@spiritone.com



Thanks



JMP

Ron Frerichs

I'll go ahead and beat this to death...

If this race was representative, 12% of all Masters participate as a Master

in most races. And only 6% of the CAT 2 Masters race as a Master. And I

would guess that number is even smaller for a race where a Championship

title is not on the line.



People get to CAT 2 because they have the physical ability, the time to

train, and they enjoy the competition at that level. So people that feel

they still can train and race as a CAT 2, do that, regardless of age.



But not every rider can keep that up as they get older. Masters that are

CAT 2 based on what they did 10 years ago, probably race Masters when they

can, and probably don't race when the Masters category is closed to them.



Open the Masters fields to all Categories and you give old guys that used to

be fast a chance to race and be competitive.



Just one more comment...Since when is racing supposed to be comfortable?







From: mike.m-@obra.org

Reply-To: mike.m-@obra.org

To: OBRA Remailer <ob-@topica.com>

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories

Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:56:57 -0700



Not to beat this to death but more statistics.



There are 396 40+ male OBRA members, 34 of whom are Cat 2 or better. A turn

out of 48 then represents 12% of the potential market, which is about the

average turn out per capita. Of the riders in the top 15 only 2 riders are

category 2 or better and it looks like they were the only Cat 2 or better

riders in the field.



The bottom line is that most of this stuff is predictable. In all

categories roughly 10-20% of the available market, as identified by annual

OBRA members, will turn up for a given race. This number takes into account

that there will be some out of state riders and some single day members.

Race organizers can use this information to structure and predict the size

of fields, but they rarely do.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Cornilles, Gary (LMCO) [mailto:Gary.Co-@nike.com]

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 12:38 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Richard,



Using your theory that Master's racing was designed to provide opportunities

as age reduced our performance, how do you think those of us that are

35+/Category 3 or 4 feel about having to race against Cat 1 or 2 Masters?

Is this an opportunity for us? Age aside, I thought the idea of categories

is to provide each of us with an opportunity to compete against riders with

similar abilities. I wouldn't begrudge you for not wanting to ride with

younger, more fit Category 1 & 2's. Let's be honest about it, you race in

the Master's to be more "comfortable" yourself.



In an ideal world there would be separate Master's categories for all

abilities but, the promoter's bottom line is about attracting the largest

number of riders and providing a competitive atmosphere to continue to

attract riders. Using Mike's (OBRA) numbers that would leave about 49

riders statewide for you to compete against, where there are over 345 in

category 3 and 4. That's a big demographic, why include 49 at the risk of

excluding 345? Do the math, it's simple. More riders=more $$$=more events.

At this weekend's State Championship (which by the way is a great venue,

Thanks Chad!) 48 riders showed up to race in the 40-49 category (almost as

large as the senior

men). The largest field I've seen in a 40+ event. I'm not sure of the

breakdown but I'm guessing there was only a handful of two's. I'm curious

how many more riders might have showed up had it been limited to 3 or 4's

only?



I'm glad the Eugene Celebration is promoting a category that fits me and my

lesser abilities (and 344 other's). I plan to support it, if it's

successful, it will profit and return. If not...well, that's how supply and

demand works.



Gary C.



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 6:20 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories



Scott:



Are you suggesting the reason cat 1-2's can compete at their respective

levels is because they have more time to train than 3's or racers over 35?

Most racers are over age 30, arguably within the age of those with families

and full-time "real" jobs as you stated. The stereotype that all cat 1's -

2's don't have jobs and ride their bikes all day is silly. I managed to be

a pretty competitive cat 2, 35+ with an average of 8-10 hours a week of

training. Most Cat 3's I know exceed that.



The objective behind masters racing was originally to provide racing

opportunites for competitors as their performance was reduced as a result of

age. What appears to have happened as of late is the formation of a

"comfortable" category for older riders who don't want to remain competitve

without the time commitment etc. of the Senior categories. I am all for

that as long as I am included in the "comfortable category". For example, I

would like a Clysdale class for riders over 200 pounds. I mean, I like beer

and pizza, and because I can't train as much as others, it is really unfair

for them to be skinny while I carry 20 extra pounds.



richard



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_________________________________________________________________

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mike.m-@obra.org

Not to beat this to death but more statistics.



There are 396 40+ male OBRA members, 34 of whom are Cat 2 or better. A turn

out of 48 then represents 12% of the potential market, which is about the

average turn out per capita. Of the riders in the top 15 only 2 riders are

category 2 or better and it looks like they were the only Cat 2 or better

riders in the field.



The bottom line is that most of this stuff is predictable. In all

categories roughly 10-20% of the available market, as identified by annual

OBRA members, will turn up for a given race. This number takes into account

that there will be some out of state riders and some single day members.

Race organizers can use this information to structure and predict the size

of fields, but they rarely do.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Cornilles, Gary (LMCO) [mailto:Gary.Co-@nike.com]

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 12:38 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Richard,



Using your theory that Master's racing was designed to provide opportunities

as age reduced our performance, how do you think those of us that are

35+/Category 3 or 4 feel about having to race against Cat 1 or 2 Masters?

Is this an opportunity for us? Age aside, I thought the idea of categories

is to provide each of us with an opportunity to compete against riders with

similar abilities. I wouldn't begrudge you for not wanting to ride with

younger, more fit Category 1 & 2's. Let's be honest about it, you race in

the Master's to be more "comfortable" yourself.



In an ideal world there would be separate Master's categories for all

abilities but, the promoter's bottom line is about attracting the largest

number of riders and providing a competitive atmosphere to continue to

attract riders. Using Mike's (OBRA) numbers that would leave about 49

riders statewide for you to compete against, where there are over 345 in

category 3 and 4. That's a big demographic, why include 49 at the risk of

excluding 345? Do the math, it's simple. More riders=more $$$=more events.

At this weekend's State Championship (which by the way is a great venue,

Thanks Chad!) 48 riders showed up to race in the 40-49 category (almost as

large as the senior

men). The largest field I've seen in a 40+ event. I'm not sure of the

breakdown but I'm guessing there was only a handful of two's. I'm curious

how many more riders might have showed up had it been limited to 3 or 4's

only?



I'm glad the Eugene Celebration is promoting a category that fits me and my

lesser abilities (and 344 other's). I plan to support it, if it's

successful, it will profit and return. If not...well, that's how supply and

demand works.



Gary C.



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 6:20 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories



Scott:



Are you suggesting the reason cat 1-2's can compete at their respective

levels is because they have more time to train than 3's or racers over 35?

Most racers are over age 30, arguably within the age of those with families

and full-time "real" jobs as you stated. The stereotype that all cat 1's -

2's don't have jobs and ride their bikes all day is silly. I managed to be

a pretty competitive cat 2, 35+ with an average of 8-10 hours a week of

training. Most Cat 3's I know exceed that.



The objective behind masters racing was originally to provide racing

opportunites for competitors as their performance was reduced as a result of

age. What appears to have happened as of late is the formation of a

"comfortable" category for older riders who don't want to remain competitve

without the time commitment etc. of the Senior categories. I am all for

that as long as I am included in the "comfortable category". For example, I

would like a Clysdale class for riders over 200 pounds. I mean, I like beer

and pizza, and because I can't train as much as others, it is really unfair

for them to be skinny while I carry 20 extra pounds.



richard



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Cornilles, Gary (LMCO)

In a pure sense you are correct. Ride the category that fits your ability.

I agree 100% and I do.



I'm just saying that from a promoter's point of view it makes sense. If a

promoter thinks it will attract more riders and promote competition that's

their prerogative. Clearly, over half the number of riders registered with

OBRA are 30+/Category 3 or 4/5.



Gary

mike.m-@obra.org

There are 297 women on the extended list (3362 men).

178 women have annual road numbers (1247 men)

women men

Cat 4 127 648 (cat 4/5)

Cat 3 30 331

Cat 2 12 115

Cat 1 6 27



121 of these women are 30+ (840 men)

women men

Cat 4 89 467 (cat 4/5)

Cat 3 20 259

Cat 2 7 78

Cat 1 3 17



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Reid, Pam [mailto:pam.-@intel.com]

Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:27 AM

To: 'mike.m-@obra.org'; OBRA Remailer

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Mike,

What is the breakdown of Master's riders by male/female? The emails seems

to be focused on male master racing. I would like to lobby for promotors to

include master women catagories in their races. I have promoted 3 races and

each time had a masters women's catagory with a great turnout. Cyclocross

is another example. They offer a master women catagory and get a great

turnout. I think we had 30+ women participate in the 35+ race last year over

the course of the series.   Pam



-----Original Message-----

From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:12 AM

To: OBRA Remailer

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Richard Randleman wrote:

"I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters

races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4. I believe the Masters races

should not have categories. With the exception of beginning racers (Cat.

5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age. Why is

it necessary to have a category? Are category 3/4 Masters incapable of

competing with Senior Cat 3/4's? If they aren't competitive witht the

Seniors shouldn't they down grade?



One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is because

they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to divide the

races up. I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.



The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for

racers over a certain age."



Personally I think that ALL Masters races should be limited to Cat 3/4. The

presence of Cat 2 riders in the Masters fields only serves to decrease

participation in the Masters races by scaring off less experienced riders

AND diminishing the competition in the already too small Cat 1/2 fields by

bleeding it off into the Masters fields. There are really only 2 reasons to

run masters races at all; to decompress the over populated Cat 3 and 4/5

fields and to take advantage of the demographic bulge in the 35+ age riders.



Some statistics:

Number of riders on extended OBRA list (annual or one day membership

recently) 3658

Number of current annual road memberships 1310

By category 5 349

4 414

3 356

2 127

1 34

Average age of an annual road membership holder 36

by category Cat 5 36

Cat 4 36

Cat 3 36

Cat 2 34

Cat 1 32

Number greater than age 35 560

Age greater than 35 by category

Cat 5 162

Cat 4 183

Cat 3 161

Cat 2 43

Cat 1 6



If you look at these statistics you start to realize that there are large

numbers in all but the most elite fields and that most racing is Masters age

category racing regardless of whether this is the stated category or not.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 18:18 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Hello all in OBRA land. I am not complaining because I appreciate it

when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to

provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers

on the topic below.





Thanks!



Richard Randleman



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snjr

Gary wrote:



 Using your theory that Master's racing was designed to provide

opportunities

 as age reduced our performance, how do you think those of us that are

35+/Category 3 or 4 feel about having to race against Cat 1 or 2 Masters?

I feel you should probably race the category for which you are qualified if

you do not want to race a Masters 35+ open race.



 Age aside, I thought the idea of categories is to provide each of us with

an >opportunity to compete against riders with similar abilities.



Precisely. Categories establish your ability, however, age alone is

supposed to establish your eligibility to compete in a masters race, not a

category.



Richard Randleman

Cornilles, Gary (LMCO)

Richard,



Using your theory that Master's racing was designed to provide opportunities

as age reduced our performance, how do you think those of us that are

35+/Category 3 or 4 feel about having to race against Cat 1 or 2 Masters?

Is this an opportunity for us? Age aside, I thought the idea of categories

is to provide each of us with an opportunity to compete against riders with

similar abilities. I wouldn't begrudge you for not wanting to ride with

younger, more fit Category 1 & 2's. Let's be honest about it, you race in

the Master's to be more "comfortable" yourself.



In an ideal world there would be separate Master's categories for all

abilities but, the promoter's bottom line is about attracting the largest

number of riders and providing a competitive atmosphere to continue to

attract riders. Using Mike's (OBRA) numbers that would leave about 49

riders statewide for you to compete against, where there are over 345 in

category 3 and 4. That's a big demographic, why include 49 at the risk of

excluding 345? Do the math, it's simple. More riders=more $$$=more events.

At this weekend's State Championship (which by the way is a great venue,

Thanks Chad!) 48 riders showed up to race in the 40-49 category (almost as

large as the senior

men). The largest field I've seen in a 40+ event. I'm not sure of the

breakdown but I'm guessing there was only a handful of two's. I'm curious

how many more riders might have showed up had it been limited to 3 or 4's

only?



I'm glad the Eugene Celebration is promoting a category that fits me and my

lesser abilities (and 344 other's). I plan to support it, if it's

successful, it will profit and return. If not...well, that's how supply and

demand works.



Gary C.



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 6:20 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories



Scott:



Are you suggesting the reason cat 1-2's can compete at their respective

levels is because they have more time to train than 3's or racers over 35?

Most racers are over age 30, arguably within the age of those with families

and full-time "real" jobs as you stated. The stereotype that all cat 1's -

2's don't have jobs and ride their bikes all day is silly. I managed to be

a pretty competitive cat 2, 35+ with an average of 8-10 hours a week of

training. Most Cat 3's I know exceed that.



The objective behind masters racing was originally to provide racing

opportunites for competitors as their performance was reduced as a result of

age. What appears to have happened as of late is the formation of a

"comfortable" category for older riders who don't want to remain competitve

without the time commitment etc. of the Senior categories. I am all for

that as long as I am included in the "comfortable category". For example, I

would like a Clysdale class for riders over 200 pounds. I mean, I like beer

and pizza, and because I can't train as much as others, it is really unfair

for them to be skinny while I carry 20 extra pounds.



richard



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Reid, Pam

Mike,

What is the breakdown of Master's riders by male/female? The emails seems

to be focused on male master racing. I would like to lobby for promotors to

include master women catagories in their races. I have promoted 3 races and

each time had a masters women's catagory with a great turnout. Cyclocross

is another example. They offer a master women catagory and get a great

turnout. I think we had 30+ women participate in the 35+ race last year over

the course of the series.   Pam



-----Original Message-----

From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:12 AM

To: OBRA Remailer

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Richard Randleman wrote:

"I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters

races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4. I believe the Masters races

should not have categories. With the exception of beginning racers (Cat.

5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age. Why is

it necessary to have a category? Are category 3/4 Masters incapable of

competing with Senior Cat 3/4's? If they aren't competitive witht the

Seniors shouldn't they down grade?



One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is because

they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to divide the

races up. I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.



The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for

racers over a certain age."



Personally I think that ALL Masters races should be limited to Cat 3/4. The

presence of Cat 2 riders in the Masters fields only serves to decrease

participation in the Masters races by scaring off less experienced riders

AND diminishing the competition in the already too small Cat 1/2 fields by

bleeding it off into the Masters fields. There are really only 2 reasons to

run masters races at all; to decompress the over populated Cat 3 and 4/5

fields and to take advantage of the demographic bulge in the 35+ age riders.



Some statistics:

Number of riders on extended OBRA list (annual or one day membership

recently) 3658

Number of current annual road memberships 1310

By category 5 349

4 414

3 356

2 127

1 34

Average age of an annual road membership holder 36

by category Cat 5 36

Cat 4 36

Cat 3 36

Cat 2 34

Cat 1 32

Number greater than age 35 560

Age greater than 35 by category

Cat 5 162

Cat 4 183

Cat 3 161

Cat 2 43

Cat 1 6



If you look at these statistics you start to realize that there are large

numbers in all but the most elite fields and that most racing is Masters age

category racing regardless of whether this is the stated category or not.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 18:18 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Hello all in OBRA land. I am not complaining because I appreciate it

when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to

provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers

on the topic below.





Thanks!



Richard Randleman



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

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snjr

Scott:



Are you suggesting the reason cat 1-2's can compete at their respective

levels is because they have more time to train than 3's or racers over 35?

Most racers are over age 30, arguably within the age of those with families

and full-time "real" jobs as you stated. The stereotype that all cat 1's -

2's don't have jobs and ride their bikes all day is silly. I managed to be

a pretty competitive cat 2, 35+ with an average of 8-10 hours a week of

training. Most Cat 3's I know exceed that.



The objective behind masters racing was originally to provide racing

opportunites for competitors as their performance was reduced as a result of

age. What appears to have happened as of late is the formation of a

"comfortable" category for older riders who don't want to remain competitve

without the time commitment etc. of the Senior categories. I am all for

that as long as I am included in the "comfortable category". For example, I

would like a Clysdale class for riders over 200 pounds. I mean, I like beer

and pizza, and because I can't train as much as others, it is really unfair

for them to be skinny while I carry 20 extra pounds.



richard

Mark Greenwood

Thank you, Scott. Couldn't have said it better...



As someone who didn't start until I was 36 (and these days there are a

lot of me out there), I don't relish racing a Masters 35+ (no category)

field with a bunch of ex Cat 1/2 racers who have been doing it since

they were 16. On the other hand, I've been out there in the non-masters

Cat 3/4/5 races with riders who are strong but not much else, and who

haven't figured out that bike racing tactics shouldn't be gleaned from

watching the movie "Rollerball".



Keep the masters categories. Obviously, if it doesn't make sense

logistically, you need to combine fields, but at least keep it available

where it works OK.



Scott Goldstein wrote:

 Hello Richard, et al:



Why have masters categories? This question is related to the question

"Why

have a masters category at all?" After all, there are usually three

mens

fields in any given race for a rider to choose from and find a group in

which he can be competitive. Do we need more than three?



In a perfect utopian environment, where everyone has 18+ hours of free

time

each day to ride our bikes in the sunshine, the answer would be

"No...three

fields is enough". However, in the real world, the older cyclist with 3

kids and a real job simply is not able to be as race fit as he might be

otherwise. "No problem!" you say, "just let him race with the Cat IVs".

Well, Mr. 39 years old with his three kids and his real job usually does

not want to mix it up in a race with a bunch of 22 year old kids who

don't

really know how (yet) to race a bike, and do crazy things like fall down

a

lot.



Thus, the Masters field. Now on to your question about masters

categories.

In Oregon, the current trend is not so much a matter of creating

seperate

masters categories, but rather limiting (by category) who can race in

the

masters field. This means "capping" the masters field in a given race

to

Cat III maximum. The Oregon peleton (it seems to me anyway...I could

very

well be wrong here) is aging. More and more of the active racers are

over

30. Many of these fellows are VERY strong and able racers Cat Is and

IIs

who also happen to be 30 or 35+. If these fellows start filling up the

masters fields, then the whole purpose of having a seperate masters

field

(see above) is defeated.



Masters fields are not about making a seperate field for "racers over a

certain age". The Masters field (or any field) should be about matching

riders with similar abilities. Andrea Tafi, Johan Museeuw, Mario

Cippolini, Gianluca Bortalami, Andre Tchmil are all over 35. Could they

race with the masters? Yes, they could. SHOULD they race with the

masters?

No they should not (not without defeating the very purpose of the

masters

field).



Scott







******************************************************

USC: 16    -    Notre Dame: 27 The Agony of Defeat!

******************************************************

Scott Goldstein

Hello Richard, et al:



Why have masters categories? This question is related to the question "Why

have a masters category at all?" After all, there are usually three mens

fields in any given race for a rider to choose from and find a group in

which he can be competitive. Do we need more than three?



In a perfect utopian environment, where everyone has 18+ hours of free time

each day to ride our bikes in the sunshine, the answer would be "No...three

fields is enough". However, in the real world, the older cyclist with 3

kids and a real job simply is not able to be as race fit as he might be

otherwise. "No problem!" you say, "just let him race with the Cat IVs".

Well, Mr. 39 years old with his three kids and his real job usually does

not want to mix it up in a race with a bunch of 22 year old kids who don't

really know how (yet) to race a bike, and do crazy things like fall down a

lot.



Thus, the Masters field. Now on to your question about masters categories.

In Oregon, the current trend is not so much a matter of creating seperate

masters categories, but rather limiting (by category) who can race in the

masters field. This means "capping" the masters field in a given race to

Cat III maximum. The Oregon peleton (it seems to me anyway...I could very

well be wrong here) is aging. More and more of the active racers are over

30. Many of these fellows are VERY strong and able racers Cat Is and IIs

who also happen to be 30 or 35+. If these fellows start filling up the

masters fields, then the whole purpose of having a seperate masters field

(see above) is defeated.



Masters fields are not about making a seperate field for "racers over a

certain age". The Masters field (or any field) should be about matching

riders with similar abilities. Andrea Tafi, Johan Museeuw, Mario

Cippolini, Gianluca Bortalami, Andre Tchmil are all over 35. Could they

race with the masters? Yes, they could. SHOULD they race with the masters?

No they should not (not without defeating the very purpose of the masters

field).



Scott







******************************************************

USC: 16    -    Notre Dame: 27 The Agony of Defeat!

******************************************************

Schreck, George

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Actually, Jamie, it is about me. It is so I can have a chance to break into

the top ten, which ensures that I will buy more expensive, supposedly

faster, equipment, so I can break into the top eight. The bike shops pay

the promoters to have these categories so I will continue to spend all of my

disposable income (and then some) on bicycles and equipment. It really is a

conspiracy, but not the one you thought.



                          George C. Schreck

                           Phone: (503) 813-7211

                           Fax: (503) 813-7190





-----Original Message-----

From: Jamie Mikami [mailto:jmik-@northwest.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:14 PM

To: sn-@charter.net; OBRA

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





They do it so that I cant race in the Masters group.



It is simply the world versus me, it is all about me.



Sorry that affects you too ... wait it can't cause it is all about me. :)



Seriously I think they do it more to keep lazy senior 1/2 riders from

picking on the masters field. Normally making it 35 or 40 plus gets rid of

that, but then you still have really fast older guys, how old is Auker now?

so making it a cat 3/4 lets some of the other masters riders have a change

at glory with out having to fight against all the young cat 3/4 who are

trying to move up to be a cat 2.



I would think your argument works better against your point - shouldn't cat

1/2 masters be able to race with the senior 1/2s? therefore why have any

masters races at all? We all have categories so just break it up by

category and be done .... far too much talk ... but in the end it is all

about what the promoter thinks will get the most entries and be the easiest

to manage.   and your and my feedback will likely be used to help set up

next years races.





Jamie





----- Original Message -----

From: "snjr" <sn-@charter.net>

To: "OBRA" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:17 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





 Hello all in OBRA land. I am not complaining because I appreciate it

when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to

provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers

on the topic below.



I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters

races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4. I believe the Masters

races should not have categories. With the exception of beginning racers

(Cat. 5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age.

Why is it necessary to have a category? Are category 3/4 Masters

incapable of competing with Senior Cat 3/4's? If they aren't competitive

witht the Seniors shouldn't they down grade?



One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is

because they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to

divide

 the

races up. I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.



The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for

racers

over a certain age.



Thanks!



Richard Randleman



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Actually, Jamie, it is about me.  It is so I can have a chance to break into the top ten, which ensures that I will buy more expensive, supposedly faster, equipment, so I can break into the top eight.  The bike shops pay the promoters to have these categories so I will continue to spend all of my disposable income (and then some) on bicycles and equipment.  It really is a conspiracy, but not the one you thought.</FONT></P>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>                          George C. Schreck</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>                           Phone: (503) 813-7211</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>                           Fax: (503) 813-7190</FONT>

</P>

<BR>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Jamie Mikami [<A HREF="mailto:jmik-@northwest.com">mailto:jmik-@northwest.com</A>]</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:14 PM</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: sn-@charter.net; OBRA</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories</FONT>

</P>

<BR>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>They do it so that I cant race in the Masters group.</FONT>

</P>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>It is simply the world versus me, it is all about me.</FONT>

</P>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>Sorry that affects you too ... wait it can't cause it is all about me. :)</FONT>

</P>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>Seriously I think they do it more to keep lazy senior 1/2 riders from</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>picking on the masters field.  Normally making it 35 or 40 plus gets rid of</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>that, but then you still have really fast older guys, how old is Auker now?</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>so making it a cat 3/4 lets some of the other masters riders have a change</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>at glory with out having to fight against all the young cat 3/4 who are</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>trying to move up to be a cat 2.</FONT>

</P>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>I would think your argument works better against your point - shouldn't cat</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>1/2 masters be able to race with the senior 1/2s?  therefore why have any</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>masters races at all?  We all have categories so just break it up by</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>category and be done .... far too much talk ... but in the end it is all</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>about what the promoter thinks will get the most entries and be the easiest</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>to manage.   and your and my feedback will likely be used to help set up</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>next years races.</FONT>

</P>

<BR>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>Jamie</FONT>

</P>

<BR>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>----- Original Message -----</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: "snjr" <sn-@charter.net></FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: "OBRA" <ob-@topica.com></FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:17 PM</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories</FONT>

</P>

<BR>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>> Hello all in OBRA land.  I am not complaining because I appreciate it</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> on the topic below.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4.  I believe the Masters</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> races should not have categories.  With the exception of beginning racers</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> (Cat. 5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Why is it necessary to have a category?  Are category 3/4 Masters</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> incapable of competing with Senior Cat 3/4's?  If they aren't competitive</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> witht the Seniors shouldn't they down grade?</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> because they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>divide</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> races up.  I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> racers</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> over a certain age.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Thanks!</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Richard Randleman</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>

</P>



<P><FONT SIZE=2>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.</FONT>

<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com</FONT>

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<br>

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Provencher, Darell

Wow. Oregon racers are mainly old farts who just want to pay race promoters

money so they can self-inflict their own pain and suffering, while carefully

trying not to over-withdraw from their significant other's emotional bank

account, which costs far more than the race fees ever will. So what's money

got to do with it? Aren't we all just looking for our red badge of courage?



-- DP





-----Original Message-----

From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:12 AM

To: OBRA Remailer

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Richard Randleman wrote:

"I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters

races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4. I believe the Masters races

should not have categories. With the exception of beginning racers (Cat.

5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age. Why is

it necessary to have a category? Are category 3/4 Masters incapable of

competing with Senior Cat 3/4's? If they aren't competitive witht the

Seniors shouldn't they down grade?



One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is because

they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to divide the

races up. I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.



The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for

racers over a certain age."



Personally I think that ALL Masters races should be limited to Cat 3/4. The

presence of Cat 2 riders in the Masters fields only serves to decrease

participation in the Masters races by scaring off less experienced riders

AND diminishing the competition in the already too small Cat 1/2 fields by

bleeding it off into the Masters fields. There are really only 2 reasons to

run masters races at all; to decompress the over populated Cat 3 and 4/5

fields and to take advantage of the demographic bulge in the 35+ age riders.



Some statistics:

Number of riders on extended OBRA list (annual or one day membership

recently) 3658

Number of current annual road memberships 1310

By category 5 349

4 414

3 356

2 127

1 34

Average age of an annual road membership holder 36

by category Cat 5 36

Cat 4 36

Cat 3 36

Cat 2 34

Cat 1 32

Number greater than age 35 560

Age greater than 35 by category

Cat 5 162

Cat 4 183

Cat 3 161

Cat 2 43

Cat 1 6



If you look at these statistics you start to realize that there are large

numbers in all but the most elite fields and that most racing is Masters age

category racing regardless of whether this is the stated category or not.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 18:18 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Hello all in OBRA land. I am not complaining because I appreciate it

when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to

provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers

on the topic below.





Thanks!



Richard Randleman



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Ron Frerichs

I've always liked Masters fields restricted to CAT 3 and under. I thought

it kept a level playing field. Since CAT 2 races are usually faster,

usually harder, and always longer than any other category, I felt that gave

them a bit of an advantage.



But, I think I'm changing my mind.



Based on Mike's numbers, if you restrict a Masters' field to 35+, 90% of the

riders are going to be CAT 3 and under anyway. And, I would think, only

part of that 10% of the 35+ riders who are CAT 2 would be interested in

Masters races on a regular basis. And, maybe not giving 35+ CAT 2s the

option of racing Masters keeps the CAT 2 field smaller. "How could that

be," you say? MAYBE some of the Masters would race CAT 3s a bit, pick up

some upgrade points, and give themselves the chance to get a taste of CAT 2

racing every once in a while, IF they knew they weren't dooming themselves

to a lifetime of sucking wheels in the pack, being at the back end of the

accordian in every crit, and getting dropped on every hard climb.



Or maybe not....



Anyway, I vote for opening Masters fields to all Categories, but keeping

them at 35+.



From: mike.m-@obra.org

Reply-To: mike.m-@obra.org

To: OBRA Remailer <ob-@topica.com>

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 00:11:50 -0700



Richard Randleman wrote:

"I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters

races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4. I believe the Masters races

should not have categories. With the exception of beginning racers (Cat.

5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age. Why is

it necessary to have a category? Are category 3/4 Masters incapable of

competing with Senior Cat 3/4's? If they aren't competitive witht the

Seniors shouldn't they down grade?



One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is because

they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to divide the

races up. I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.



The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for

racers over a certain age."



Personally I think that ALL Masters races should be limited to Cat 3/4. The

presence of Cat 2 riders in the Masters fields only serves to decrease

participation in the Masters races by scaring off less experienced riders

AND diminishing the competition in the already too small Cat 1/2 fields by

bleeding it off into the Masters fields. There are really only 2 reasons to

run masters races at all; to decompress the over populated Cat 3 and 4/5

fields and to take advantage of the demographic bulge in the 35+ age riders.



Some statistics:

Number of riders on extended OBRA list (annual or one day membership

recently) 3658

Number of current annual road memberships 1310

By category 5 349

4 414

3 356

2 127

1 34

Average age of an annual road membership holder 36

by category Cat 5 36

Cat 4 36

Cat 3 36

Cat 2 34

Cat 1 32

Number greater than age 35 560

Age greater than 35 by category

Cat 5 162

Cat 4 183

Cat 3 161

Cat 2 43

Cat 1 6



If you look at these statistics you start to realize that there are large

numbers in all but the most elite fields and that most racing is Masters age

category racing regardless of whether this is the stated category or not.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 18:18 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Hello all in OBRA land. I am not complaining because I appreciate it

when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to

provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers

on the topic below.





Thanks!



Richard Randleman



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

















_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

mike.m-@obra.org

Richard Randleman wrote:

"I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters

races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4. I believe the Masters races

should not have categories. With the exception of beginning racers (Cat.

5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age. Why is

it necessary to have a category? Are category 3/4 Masters incapable of

competing with Senior Cat 3/4's? If they aren't competitive witht the

Seniors shouldn't they down grade?



One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is because

they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to divide the

races up. I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.



The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for

racers over a certain age."



Personally I think that ALL Masters races should be limited to Cat 3/4. The

presence of Cat 2 riders in the Masters fields only serves to decrease

participation in the Masters races by scaring off less experienced riders

AND diminishing the competition in the already too small Cat 1/2 fields by

bleeding it off into the Masters fields. There are really only 2 reasons to

run masters races at all; to decompress the over populated Cat 3 and 4/5

fields and to take advantage of the demographic bulge in the 35+ age riders.



Some statistics:

Number of riders on extended OBRA list (annual or one day membership

recently) 3658

Number of current annual road memberships 1310

By category 5 349

4 414

3 356

2 127

1 34

Average age of an annual road membership holder 36

by category Cat 5 36

Cat 4 36

Cat 3 36

Cat 2 34

Cat 1 32

Number greater than age 35 560

Age greater than 35 by category

Cat 5 162

Cat 4 183

Cat 3 161

Cat 2 43

Cat 1 6



If you look at these statistics you start to realize that there are large

numbers in all but the most elite fields and that most racing is Masters age

category racing regardless of whether this is the stated category or not.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 18:18 PM

To: OBRA

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





Hello all in OBRA land. I am not complaining because I appreciate it

when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to

provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers

on the topic below.





Thanks!



Richard Randleman



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Jamie Mikami

They do it so that I cant race in the Masters group.



It is simply the world versus me, it is all about me.



Sorry that affects you too ... wait it can't cause it is all about me. :)



Seriously I think they do it more to keep lazy senior 1/2 riders from

picking on the masters field. Normally making it 35 or 40 plus gets rid of

that, but then you still have really fast older guys, how old is Auker now?

so making it a cat 3/4 lets some of the other masters riders have a change

at glory with out having to fight against all the young cat 3/4 who are

trying to move up to be a cat 2.



I would think your argument works better against your point - shouldn't cat

1/2 masters be able to race with the senior 1/2s? therefore why have any

masters races at all? We all have categories so just break it up by

category and be done .... far too much talk ... but in the end it is all

about what the promoter thinks will get the most entries and be the easiest

to manage.   and your and my feedback will likely be used to help set up

next years races.





Jamie





----- Original Message -----

From: "snjr" <sn-@charter.net>

To: "OBRA" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:17 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Master's Categories





 Hello all in OBRA land. I am not complaining because I appreciate it

when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to

provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers

on the topic below.



I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters

races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4. I believe the Masters

races should not have categories. With the exception of beginning racers

(Cat. 5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age.

Why is it necessary to have a category? Are category 3/4 Masters

incapable of competing with Senior Cat 3/4's? If they aren't competitive

witht the Seniors shouldn't they down grade?



One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is

because they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to

divide

 the

races up. I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.



The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for

racers

over a certain age.



Thanks!



Richard Randleman



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

snjr

Hello all in OBRA land. I am not complaining because I appreciate it

when anyone puts on a race, however, I would like to

provide some feedback to promoters and solicit responses from racers

on the topic below.



I am disappointed when races such as the Eugene Celebration set up Masters

races with categories like Masters 35+ Cat 3/4. I believe the Masters

races should not have categories. With the exception of beginning racers

(Cat. 5), there are no requirements to race a Masters race other than age.

Why is it necessary to have a category? Are category 3/4 Masters

incapable of competing with Senior Cat 3/4's? If they aren't competitive

witht the Seniors shouldn't they down grade?



One reason we see Masters races with categories in larger regions is

because they have plenty of racers in the Senior and Masters cats to divide

the

races up. I do not believe we have that problem in Oregon.



The purpose of Masters categories are to provide racing opportunities for

racers

over a certain age.



Thanks!



Richard Randleman