Bike Lawyers in Portland... is there even a point?

Eric Chu

2010-11-16

I am an not a lawyer. Let me say that first.

Ty, this is only partly directed at you....regardless, don't take
this as any kind of personal attack. I understand your frustration.

Unfortunately, where the law is concerned, even when someone is
victimized, in many cases, a person can be 100% right....and still
not have a case.

It did not sound like the driver stuck around. If the driver/vehicle
can't be identified, that's a big problem. And even if it could
be...it can come down to one person's word vs. another's.

I don't know the specifics about your friend's case...important
things to know are:

was a police report filed? did the police pursue the case if the
driver was ID'd? were there any witnesses?

1) assuming your friend was in the right without question, and the
police refused to pursue the case/cite the driver and the offending
vehicle/driver was ID'd....you can file a writ of
mandamus....basically get a court to compel them to do their job and
uphold the law. The BTA in Portland, can help your friend with
that...if that's the case.

If the driver fled the scene and CAN be identified...that's a
violation right there. If it CAN'T be identified...that's a HUGE
obstacle at pursuing any kind of case, whether traffic citation,
criminal or personal injury.

2) hypothetically, if the driver was ID"d later, or remained on the
scene and interviewed by police and said the the cyclist was
following too close, and denies the cyclist's version of events (in
lieu of any other witnesses)...it becomes one person's word vs.
another...hard to prove either way. That's the hard reality. (In a
non-injury case I have heard of police making contact with the
driver and putting the fear of god in them....don't forget that there
are some cyclists within law enforcement and officers who do take
road rage seriously and do what they can. It's a mistake for any of
us to assume they're all against us.)

I would not paint lawyers with a broad brush. On every occasion
where I have consulted with attorneys (some bike attorneys, some not)
on a wide variety issues...they have all taken the time to chat and
discuss the chances of success at pursuing a case...and not charged
me a dime, even though I tend to take more than full advantage of the
free consultation.

I can also say that bicycle attorneys from the Portland area have
taken the time to enhance my understanding of the law, and even
emailed me in the middle of the night to answer some of my questions.
They do support the rights of cyclists and even help write the laws
the protect us in this state.

I offer the following advice to cyclists in general (again, I'm not a
lawyer):

1) Ride safely and predictably. Take the time to know the law and
then follow it. (unfortunately, the fault of the driver can be
mitigated if the cyclist isn't behaving absolutely perfectly)
2) carry a cell phone! and report drivers are involved in crashes or
otherwise threaten your safety. tape a piece of chalk to a seat
rail, or to some cable housing....scribble down license plates on the
pavement before you forget it in the heat of the moment. (if the
pavement is usually wet, those little mini-sharpie markers are good
for scribbling on your arm or hand).
3) Get to know a lawyer before you need one.

I don't believe in the idea that there are too may lawyers. There
are only too many lawyers, if I'm the one who doesn't have one, and
the other guy already has his.

Thanks for your time,
Eric in Bend

----
Ride your bike, ride your bike, ride your bike.---Fausto Coppi


Mark J. Ginsberg

2010-11-15

Ty,

I saw this email this morning and sat on it to see what the responses looked
like because frankly, your email is directed to me personally.

I represent a lot of cyclists mainly in Portland, but across the state and even
in other states.

I am a plaintiff's personally injury attorney. I probably spoke with your
friend. I speak to a lot of people so I don't specifically remember him, or his
case.

You sound angry. Where does that anger come from?

Let's assume I spoke to your friend, and I didn't take his case. Again I
wouldn't comment on an actual case, but assume we talked and I decided to not
take his case.
Does that mean I am a bad person? does that mean I do not care about cyclists?
Does that mean that I am not a cyclist advocate?

I often don't take case, but the reasons for my not taking any given case are
as varied as the people who contact me for input, advice of help.

So you are upset based on some second hand information, and fire off an angry
email about how I am a bozzo b/c I didn't take your friends case.

I will assume that you haven't ever needed to hire a personally injury lawyer,
and i hope that all of the readers of this email also never need me, or someone
like me, because it typically means you have been hurt, badly.

Now it is true I do not take all the cases of all the people who call me, as
mentioned above. Some of the reasons are, by way of example and not limitation:
too small to be economically viable, not winnable for a variety of reasons,
don't like potential client, and of course "other".

So I am happy to have an actual discussion about the actual facts of your
friends actual case, as a private email with your friend and you, if your friend
wishes. But please, find the difference between being angry based on secondhand
knowledge and insulting some people who want to be on your side.

Mark

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Ty Mangum
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 7:05:32 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Bike Lawyers in Portland... is there even a point?

Recently down here in Eugene, a U of O teammate of mine was a victim of road
rage by a guy who didn't think he should be using the left turn lane. The
vehicle got in front of him, stopped suddenly so that my teammate ran into the
vehicle (broke his hand) and the guy sped off.

Long story short (the way I understand it, I'm second hand information) is that
he contacted some of the bike lawyers up in Portland to see if they could take
his case... but it turns out no one would because there's not enough money in it
for them. Completely understandable for some lawyers, but if the entire purpose
of your practice indicates bike advocacy, why wouldn't you take a case to
protect riders from road rage? There is absolutely no point to having a group
that aims at protecting cyclists but when it comes to money they'll shy away.
Any lawyer can do that.

So what's the point to the Bike Lawyers? Is it just a name? I'm just frustrated
that no one would represent a college aged student that did absolutely nothing
wrong, and that there's still a driver out there in Eugene willing to do this
and knows there might not be any punishment.
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Scott Jerger

2010-11-15

Ty:

A bike lawyer is a plaintiff's personal injury lawyer who is interested in taking cases involving bicycles. There really is no law that is unique to bicycles, any good personal injury lawyer will do, so have your friend shop it around more. Plaintiff's lawyers take cases, for the most part, on a contingency basis. If they refuse to take a case it means that they perceived a problem with (1) liability, (2) damages, or (3) both.

scott

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org on behalf of Santos Joe
Sent: Sun 11/14/2010 9:33 PM
To: Ty Mangum
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Bike Lawyers in Portland... is there even a point?

Ty,

If the lawyers refused to take your friends case I'll bet the case
wasn't very strong. Taking every case to court as a matter of
principle becomes very costly and unsustainable for the self
employed. No, I'm not a lawyer but I understand they are running a
business.

lJoe

On Nov 14, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Ty Mangum wrote:

> Recently down here in Eugene, a U of O teammate of mine was a victim
> of road rage by a guy who didn't think he should be using the left
> turn lane. The vehicle got in front of him, stopped suddenly so that
> my teammate ran into the vehicle (broke his hand) and the guy sped
> off.
> Long story short (the way I understand it, I'm second hand
> information) is that he contacted some of the bike lawyers up in
> Portland to see if they could take his case... but it turns out no
> one would because there's not enough money in it for them.
> Completely understandable for some lawyers, but if the entire
> purpose of your practice indicates bike advocacy, why wouldn't you
> take a case to protect riders from road rage? There is absolutely no
> point to having a group that aims at protecting cyclists but when it
> comes to money they'll shy away. Any lawyer can do that.
> So what's the point to the Bike Lawyers? Is it just a name? I'm just
> frustrated that no one would represent a college aged student that
> did absolutely nothing wrong, and that there's still a driver out
> there in Eugene willing to do this and knows there might not be any
> punishment.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Troy Sexton

2010-11-15

Not necessarily true at all- see ORS 20.080. https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/20.080

While attorneys have bills to pay too, the state legislature recognized this sort of problem already.

On Nov 14, 2010, at 9:39 PM, Kevin wrote:

> Probably has nothing whatsoever to do with the case's strength, more likely dollars and cents. Finding a party guilty but not with a substantial monetary fine leaves little impetus for an attorney to get involved unless the wronged party is willing to pay the attorney out of pocket.
>
> Attorney's have to pay bills too.
>
> It would be nice if the person belongs to a large bike club that the club kick in some $ to help defray legal expenses... if the case is strong so as to not be just spending members' money on frivolity. Drivers that menace bicycles need to be held responsible.
>
> Kevin
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> What is happening in Kevin's corner of the bike world?
> http://the-whir-of-spokes-in-air.blogspot.com
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
> From: Santos Joe
> To: Ty Mangum
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 9:33:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Bike Lawyers in Portland... is there even a point?
>
> Ty,
>
> If the lawyers refused to take your friends case I'll bet the case wasn't very strong. Taking every case to court as a matter of principle becomes very costly and unsustainable for the self employed. No, I'm not a lawyer but I understand they are running a business.
>
> lJoe
>
> On Nov 14, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Ty Mangum wrote:
>
> > Recently down here in Eugene, a U of O teammate of mine was a victim of road rage by a guy who didn't think he should be using the left turn lane. The vehicle got in front of him, stopped suddenly so that my teammate ran into the vehicle (broke his hand) and the guy sped off.
> > Long story short (the way I understand it, I'm second hand information) is that he contacted some of the bike lawyers up in Portland to see if they could take his case... but it turns out no one would because there's not enough money in it for them. Completely understandable for some lawyers, but if the entire purpose of your practice indicates bike advocacy, why wouldn't you take a case to protect riders from road rage? There is absolutely no point to having a group that aims at protecting cyclists but when it comes to money they'll shy away. Any lawyer can do that.
> > So what's the point to the Bike Lawyers? Is it just a name? I'm just frustrated that no one would represent a college aged student that did absolutely nothing wrong, and that there's still a driver out there in Eugene willing to do this and knows there might not be any punishment.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
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Kevin

2010-11-15

Probably has nothing whatsoever to do with the case's strength, more likely
dollars and cents. Finding a party guilty but not with a substantial monetary
fine leaves little impetus for an attorney to get involved unless the wronged
party is willing to pay the attorney out of pocket.

Attorney's have to pay bills too.

It would be nice if the person belongs to a large bike club that the club kick
in some $ to help defray legal expenses... if the case is strong so as to not be
just spending members' money on frivolity. Drivers that menace bicycles need to
be held responsible.

Kevin

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What is happening in Kevin's corner of the bike world?
http://the-whir-of-spokes-in-air.blogspot.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

________________________________
From: Santos Joe
To: Ty Mangum
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 9:33:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Bike Lawyers in Portland... is there even a point?

Ty,

If the lawyers refused to take your friends case I'll bet the case wasn't very
strong. Taking every case to court as a matter of principle becomes very costly
and unsustainable for the self employed. No, I'm not a lawyer but I understand
they are running a business.

lJoe

On Nov 14, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Ty Mangum wrote:

> Recently down here in Eugene, a U of O teammate of mine was a victim of road
>rage by a guy who didn't think he should be using the left turn lane. The
>vehicle got in front of him, stopped suddenly so that my teammate ran into the
>vehicle (broke his hand) and the guy sped off.
> Long story short (the way I understand it, I'm second hand information) is that
>he contacted some of the bike lawyers up in Portland to see if they could take
>his case... but it turns out no one would because there's not enough money in it
>for them. Completely understandable for some lawyers, but if the entire purpose
>of your practice indicates bike advocacy, why wouldn't you take a case to
>protect riders from road rage? There is absolutely no point to having a group
>that aims at protecting cyclists but when it comes to money they'll shy away.
>Any lawyer can do that.
> So what's the point to the Bike Lawyers? Is it just a name? I'm just frustrated
>that no one would represent a college aged student that did absolutely nothing
>wrong, and that there's still a driver out there in Eugene willing to do this
>and knows there might not be any punishment.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Santos Joe

2010-11-15

Ty,

If the lawyers refused to take your friends case I'll bet the case
wasn't very strong. Taking every case to court as a matter of
principle becomes very costly and unsustainable for the self
employed. No, I'm not a lawyer but I understand they are running a
business.

lJoe

On Nov 14, 2010, at 7:05 PM, Ty Mangum wrote:

> Recently down here in Eugene, a U of O teammate of mine was a victim
> of road rage by a guy who didn't think he should be using the left
> turn lane. The vehicle got in front of him, stopped suddenly so that
> my teammate ran into the vehicle (broke his hand) and the guy sped
> off.
> Long story short (the way I understand it, I'm second hand
> information) is that he contacted some of the bike lawyers up in
> Portland to see if they could take his case... but it turns out no
> one would because there's not enough money in it for them.
> Completely understandable for some lawyers, but if the entire
> purpose of your practice indicates bike advocacy, why wouldn't you
> take a case to protect riders from road rage? There is absolutely no
> point to having a group that aims at protecting cyclists but when it
> comes to money they'll shy away. Any lawyer can do that.
> So what's the point to the Bike Lawyers? Is it just a name? I'm just
> frustrated that no one would represent a college aged student that
> did absolutely nothing wrong, and that there's still a driver out
> there in Eugene willing to do this and knows there might not be any
> punishment.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


dacrizzow

2010-11-15

he probably understands that. i don't think that was the point of the post.


Robert Anderson

2010-11-15

Ty, You don't need an attorney to take someone to court. If a crime was
committed, you need to call the police and contact the district attorney in
your local jurisdiction.
-Rob Anderson

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Ty Mangum wrote:

> Recently down here in Eugene, a U of O teammate of mine was a victim of
> road rage by a guy who didn't think he should be using the left turn lane.
> The vehicle got in front of him, stopped suddenly so that my teammate ran
> into the vehicle (broke his hand) and the guy sped off.
> Long story short (the way I understand it, I'm second hand information) is
> that he contacted some of the bike lawyers up in Portland to see if they
> could take his case... but it turns out no one would because there's not
> enough money in it for them. Completely understandable for some lawyers, but
> if the entire purpose of your practice indicates bike advocacy, why wouldn't
> you take a case to protect riders from road rage? There is absolutely no
> point to having a group that aims at protecting cyclists but when it comes
> to money they'll shy away. Any lawyer can do that.
> So what's the point to the Bike Lawyers? Is it just a name? I'm just
> frustrated that no one would represent a college aged student that did
> absolutely nothing wrong, and that there's still a driver out there in
> Eugene willing to do this and knows there might not be any punishment.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Ty Mangum

2010-11-15

Recently down here in Eugene, a U of O teammate of mine was a victim of road rage by a guy who didn't think he should be using the left turn lane. The vehicle got in front of him, stopped suddenly so that my teammate ran into the vehicle (broke his hand) and the guy sped off.
Long story short (the way I understand it, I'm second hand information) is that he contacted some of the bike lawyers up in Portland to see if they could take his case... but it turns out no one would because there's not enough money in it for them. Completely understandable for some lawyers, but if the entire purpose of your practice indicates bike advocacy, why wouldn't you take a case to protect riders from road rage? There is absolutely no point to having a group that aims at protecting cyclists but when it comes to money they'll shy away. Any lawyer can do that.
So what's the point to the Bike Lawyers? Is it just a name? I'm just frustrated that no one would represent a college aged student that did absolutely nothing wrong, and that there's still a driver out there in Eugene willing to do this and knows there might not be any punishment.