Evan Plews

I am glad Candi agrees since she would win! Furthermore the last time I hit something with a closed fist I missed cross season with a cast on my hand... hehehe! Now I just miss cross season cause I can't win the BAR...

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

From: cmurray@obra.org
To: joe50santos@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 15:13:15 -0800
CC: plewse@hotmail.com; obra@list.obra.org; periwinklekog@yahoo.com

I actually agree with Evan. Just wanted to get the process defined.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Santos Joe wrote:

I think three rounds of bare knuckle boxing between Candi and Evan will solve this problem.

On Dec 14, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Candi Murray wrote:

Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about the management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types that make those changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes. We just need to find a way to score and implement any changes.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:

Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.

My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...

Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
> From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change."
>
> *********
>
> Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
>
> Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up Every Week.
>
> Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>
> It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)
>
> Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile quest.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

T. Kenji Sugahara

We have a winner. Thanks Jim.

Any changes that are made at the annual meeting will not be put into
place until 2012. There is simply not enough time between the annual
meeting and the first race to really put something into place.

The code behind the BAR is complex and frankly Scott and Cheryl have
almost stopped dealing with it because it is such a time suck (and
they have full time jobs).

The BAR is for fun and not to be obsessed over.

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Fischer, Jim E (Corvallis)
wrote:
> Cheryl, Candi, Mike, Kenji, Brian List, Seth May (and others) and I have
> batted this around for years.  Changes should be made to fix something
> that is broken or not working as designed.  When it came down to it, the
> system was working as designed - to encourage participation.
>
> For a serious gage of competitive ability, we have the Oregon Cup, the OBRA
> Champs in all disciplines, or the various regional or national events.
> These events are often weighted more heavily for BAR totals.
>
> The BAR points assignments were changed last year (linearly scaled 15 down
> to 1 pt for 1st through 15th) instead of the former stepped system.  Beyond
> that, scaling for category level, field size, team, etc required more work
> and really didn't make the BAR system any more effective at rewarding
> participation...which was its original intent.  (The one caveat was at CCX.
> Dunno about this year, but last year, I saw the larger fields at the big
> events with winners earning 1.5x the usual BAR points schedule due to huge
> fields.)
>
> It's definitely not because nobody cared.
>
> Fish
> ________________________________

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone:  503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org

Candi Murray

I actually agree with Evan. Just wanted to get the process defined.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Santos Joe wrote:

> I think three rounds of bare knuckle boxing between Candi and Evan will solve this problem.
>
>
> On Dec 14, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
>
>> Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about the management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types that make those changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes. We just need to find a way to score and implement any changes.
>>
>> Candi
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:
>>
>>> Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.
>>>
>>> My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
>>>
>>> Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!
>>>
>>>
>>> Evan Plews
>>> www.evanplews.com
>>> 503-949-4879
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
>>> > From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
>>> > To: obra@list.obra.org
>>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>> >
>>> > Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change."
>>> >
>>> > *********
>>> >
>>> > Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
>>> >
>>> > Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up Every Week.
>>> >
>>> > Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>>> >
>>> > It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)
>>> >
>>> > Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile quest.
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > OBRA mailing list
>>> > obra@list.obra.org
>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Roger Joys

The first rule of OBRA CHAT BAR Posts ....

On Dec 14, 2010, at 2:16 PM, Santos Joe wrote:

> I think three rounds of bare knuckle boxing between Candi and Evan will solve this problem.
>
>
> On Dec 14, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
>
>> Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about the management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types that make those changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes. We just need to find a way to score and implement any changes.
>>
>> Candi
>>
>> On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:
>>
>>> Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.
>>>
>>> My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
>>>
>>> Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!
>>>
>>>
>>> Evan Plews
>>> www.evanplews.com
>>> 503-949-4879
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
>>> > From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
>>> > To: obra@list.obra.org
>>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>> >
>>> > Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change."
>>> >
>>> > *********
>>> >
>>> > Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
>>> >
>>> > Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up Every Week.
>>> >
>>> > Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>>> >
>>> > It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)
>>> >
>>> > Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile quest.
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > OBRA mailing list
>>> > obra@list.obra.org
>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Santos Joe

I think three rounds of bare knuckle boxing between Candi and Evan
will solve this problem.

On Dec 14, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Candi Murray wrote:

> Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment
> about the management types was after one of the worker bees make a
> comment. The BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and
> presents it at the annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change.
> There are no management types that make those changes. The Board of
> Directors don't make any changes. We just need to find a way to
> score and implement any changes.
>
> Candi
>
> On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:
>
>> Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get
>> your feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I
>> seriously doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend
>> the time on participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members
>> likely can't even name one person on the board of directors. I race
>> a lot, bankroll a team, and I have never had a board member even
>> approach me in the last 10 years unless they were looking for a
>> vote at the annual meeting.
>>
>> My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race
>> participation at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place
>> at Cross Crusade could be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be
>> worth NOTHING. I speak first hand from my results last year. If you
>> want to change it then participate in the politics, too! Not you
>> Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
>>
>> Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties
>> in a knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!
>>
>>
>> Evan Plews
>> www.evanplews.com
>> 503-949-4879
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
>> > From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
>> > To: obra@list.obra.org
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>> >
>> > Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to
>> "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I
>> look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost
>> NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the
>> course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a
>> system that actually rewards their results in races...not just
>> number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the
>> Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in
>> OBRA to look at a change."
>> >
>> > *********
>> >
>> > Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory
>> explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even
>> realize it existed until near the end of this, my second season of
>> racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my results from a race
>> one day.
>> >
>> > Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of
>> singlespeed (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and
>> killing myself regularly at the PIR series this summer. My placings
>> were at the bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This
>> method was also applied in figuring out the series overall for the
>> short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even though
>> I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For
>> Showing Up Every Week.
>> >
>> > Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>> >
>> > It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few
>> might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an
>> actual award in BAR points when I'm still one of the slowest racers
>> in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next
>> year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)
>> >
>> > Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as
>> well as participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be
>> implemented by someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?)
>> Seems like a worthwhile quest.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Exactly! The BAR rules can be anyway we want. They are generally changed every year based on perceived defects. Any member can propose a change which is voted on by club representatives at the annual meeting. After that it is what it is.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Plummer
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 14:01:14
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

I think this does raise a good point. Now is the time to be thinking
about issues like this. If people have ideas to improve the current
system, the annual meeting is just over a month away. So perhaps a
legitimate discussion about these topics would be helpful. But time to
put the feelings aside and think about what would be best for the
overall good of OBRA.

So there's that...

Matt Plummer
Central Oregon Racing

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Melanie Rathe wrote:
> WOW! We almost made it to the end of the year without the BAR 'discussion'!
>
> Happy New Year everyone ;o)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Dreiling"
> To: "Candi Murray" , "Evan Plews"
> Cc: "OBRA" , ""
>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:38:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> Ron is the man...always so supportive
>
> Randy Dreiling
>
> Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com
>
> Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com
>
>________________________________
> From: Candi Murray
> To: Evan Plews
> Cc: OBRA ; ""
>
> Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 1:15:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about
> the management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The
> BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the
> annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types
> that make those changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes.  We
> just need to find a way to score and implement any changes.
> Candi
> On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:
>
> Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your
> feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously
> doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on
> participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name
> one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I
> have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless
> they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.
>
> My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation
> at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could
> be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first
> hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in
> the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
>
> Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a
> knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!
>
>
> Evan Plews
> www.evanplews.com
> 503-949-4879
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
>> From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>
>> Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ"
>> (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing
>> below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of
>> them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There
>> needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just
>> number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross
>> master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a
>> change."
>>
>> *********
>>
>> Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory
>> explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it
>> existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found
>> it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
>>
>> Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed
>> (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly
>> at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is
>> not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the
>> series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my
>> category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered,
>> Just For Showing Up Every Week.
>>
>> Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>>
>> It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be
>> shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR
>> points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear
>> not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week!
>> Yikes!)
>>
>> Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as
>> participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by
>> someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile
>> quest.
>>_______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>_______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

There's actually a list of mandatory OBRA chat annual topics.

Someone was obviously going through the year end check list.

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

p { margin: 0; }

WOW! We almost made it to the end of the
year without the BAR 'discussion'!

Happy New Year everyone ;o)

----- Original Message -----

From: "Randy Dreiling" <raggy23@yahoo.com>

To: "Candi Murray" <cmurray@obra.org>, "Evan Plews"
<plewse@hotmail.com>

Cc: "OBRA" <obra@list.obra.org>,
"<periwinklekog@yahoo.com>"
<periwinklekog@yahoo.com>

Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:38:08 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

<!-- DIV {margin:0px;} -->

Ron is the man...always so supportive

 

Randy Dreiling



Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com



Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com

---

From:
Candi Murray <cmurray@obra.org>

To: Evan
Plews <plewse@hotmail.com>

Cc: OBRA
<obra@list.obra.org>;
"<periwinklekog@yahoo.com>"
<periwinklekog@yahoo.com>

Sent:
Tue, December 14, 2010 1:15:10 PM

Subject:
Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things
work. Your comment about the management types was after
one of the worker bees make a comment. The BAR gets
changed when a club recommends a change and presents it
at the annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change.
There are no management types that make those changes.
The Board of Directors don't make any changes.  We just
need to find a way to score and implement any changes.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews <plewse@hotmail.com> wrote:

Let me define "...body" just so all you management
types don't get your feelers hurt... def: the general
OBRA membership population. I seriously doubt many
members even read the rules or want to spend the time
on participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members
likely can't even name one person on the board of
directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I have
never had a board member even approach me in the last
10 years unless they were looking for a vote at the
annual meeting.

 

My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It
rewards race participation at "smaller" events and in
small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could be a
lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING.
I speak first hand from my results last year. If you
want to change it then participate in the politics,
too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...

 

Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism
get yer panties in a knot--we all need and deserve it
from time to time! 

Evan Plews

www.evanplews.com

503-949-4879

 

> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800

> From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com

> To: obra@list.obra.org

> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

>

> Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR
to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that
abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing
below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had
more points. Most of them can crush me on the
course.....All I did was race more races. There needs
to be a system that actually rewards their results in
races...not just number of races. As set up now, the
system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I
urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to
look at a change."

>

> *********

>

> Along with that, it would be helpful to send out
an introductory explanation of what BAR is, and what
it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near
the end of this, my second season of racing; and I
found it by clicking idly on my results from a race
one day.

>

> Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in
some sub-set of singlespeed (short-track), simply by
virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at
the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the
bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This
method was also applied in figuring out the series
overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth
overallin my category even though I placed last or
near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up
Every Week.

>

> Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.

>

> It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more
than a few might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone
like me ever won an actual award in BAR points when
I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known
universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next
year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)

>

> Is there a better system of math that could
reflect results as well as participation? (And,
perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by
someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?)
Seems like a worthwhile quest.

> _______________________________________________

> OBRA mailing list

> obra@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Matt Plummer

I think this does raise a good point. Now is the time to be thinking
about issues like this. If people have ideas to improve the current
system, the annual meeting is just over a month away. So perhaps a
legitimate discussion about these topics would be helpful. But time to
put the feelings aside and think about what would be best for the
overall good of OBRA.

So there's that...

Matt Plummer
Central Oregon Racing

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Melanie Rathe wrote:
> WOW! We almost made it to the end of the year without the BAR 'discussion'!
>
> Happy New Year everyone ;o)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Randy Dreiling"
> To: "Candi Murray" , "Evan Plews"
> Cc: "OBRA" , ""
>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:38:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> Ron is the man...always so supportive
>
> Randy Dreiling
>
> Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com
>
> Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com
>
> ________________________________
> From: Candi Murray
> To: Evan Plews
> Cc: OBRA ; ""
>
> Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 1:15:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about
> the management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The
> BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the
> annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types
> that make those changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes.  We
> just need to find a way to score and implement any changes.
> Candi
> On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:
>
> Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your
> feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously
> doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on
> participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name
> one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I
> have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless
> they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.
>
> My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation
> at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could
> be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first
> hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in
> the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
>
> Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a
> knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!
>
>
> Evan Plews
> www.evanplews.com
> 503-949-4879
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
>> From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>
>> Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ"
>> (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing
>> below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of
>> them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There
>> needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just
>> number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross
>> master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a
>> change."
>>
>> *********
>>
>> Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory
>> explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it
>> existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found
>> it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
>>
>> Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed
>> (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly
>> at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is
>> not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the
>> series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my
>> category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered,
>> Just For Showing Up Every Week.
>>
>> Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>>
>> It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be
>> shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR
>> points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear
>> not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week!
>> Yikes!)
>>
>> Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as
>> participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by
>> someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile
>> quest.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Melanie Rathe

WOW! We almost made it to the end of the year without the BAR 'discussion'!

Happy New Year everyone ;o)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Dreiling"
To: "Candi Murray" , "Evan Plews"
Cc: "OBRA" , ""
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:38:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

Ron is the man...always so supportive
  Randy Dreiling

Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com

Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com

From: Candi Murray
To: Evan Plews
Cc: OBRA ; ""
Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 1:15:10 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about the management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types that make those changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes.  We just need to find a way to score and implement any changes.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews < plewse@hotmail.com > wrote:

Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.
 
My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
 
Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time! 

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

 
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
> From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change."
>
> *********
>
> Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
>
> Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up Every Week.
>
> Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>
> It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)
>
> Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile quest.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Randy Dreiling

Ron is the man...always so supportive
Randy Dreiling

Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com

Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com

________________________________
From: Candi Murray
To: Evan Plews
Cc: OBRA ; ""

Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 1:15:10 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about the
management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The BAR gets
changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the annual meeting.
The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types that make those
changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes. We just need to find a
way to score and implement any changes.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:

Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your feelers
hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously doubt many
members even read the rules or want to spend the time on participatory bicycle
racing politics. Most members likely can't even name one person on the board of
directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I have never had a board member
even approach me in the last 10 years unless they were looking for a vote at the
annual meeting.

>
>My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation at
>"smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could be a lot
>better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first hand from my
>results last year. If you want to change it then participate in the politics,
>too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
>
>Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a
>knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!
>
>
>
>Evan Plews
>www.evanplews.com
>503-949-4879
>
>
>
>> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
>> From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>
>> Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ"
>>(don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below
>>me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can
>>crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a
>>system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races.
>>As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the
>>powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change."
>>
>> *********
>>
>> Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory explanation of
>>what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near the
>>end of this, my second season of racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my
>>results from a race one day.
>>
>> Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed
>>(short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at
>>the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is not
>>reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the series
>>overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even
>>though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up
>>Every Week.
>>
>>
>> Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>>
>> It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be
>>shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR points
>>when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm
>>working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)
>>
>> Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as
>>participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by
>>someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile
>>quest.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Candi Murray

Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about the management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types that make those changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes. We just need to find a way to score and implement any changes.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:

> Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.
>
> My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
>
> Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!
>
>
> Evan Plews
> www.evanplews.com
> 503-949-4879
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
> > From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
> >
> > Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change."
> >
> > *********
> >
> > Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
> >
> > Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up Every Week.
> >
> > Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
> >
> > It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)
> >
> > Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile quest.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Pistis Mountain Bike Racing Team

I think it is doing just that. encouraging riders to come to our races. As a promoter I love it. I would say there is at least 10 riders coming to our races chasing points. Today that could make or break us. I also am in charge of a teams finances. I love when one of our riders goes after the BAR. Not only do those riders put a ton of money into the system but they also help get our sponsors name out. Because of a couple of our riders most people have herd of Pistis. Maybe we could look at a name change. But it seems to be doing what it was intended to do.
I really like the team aspect to it. In 2009 we had lots of fun with it. We had more racers racing Cross then ever before. Now in a year we are not near the top those riders are all addicted to cross and still ride in support of the Southern Oregon Series.

So I would say it is a very good thing for OBRA and those of us that put on races.

Oh ya, Ron you are a stud.

Cliff McCann
Pistis Ministries
Pistis.us
541-659-4104

From: jim.fischer@hp.com
To: obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 20:37:58 +0000
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

Cheryl, Candi, Mike, Kenji, Brian List, Seth May (and others) and I have batted this around for years. Changes should be made to fix something that is broken or not working as designed. When it came down to it, the system was working as designed - to encourage participation.

For a serious gage of competitive ability, we have the Oregon Cup, the OBRA Champs in all disciplines, or the various regional or national events. These events are often weighted more heavily for BAR totals.

The BAR points assignments were changed last year (linearly scaled 15 down to 1 pt for 1st through 15th) instead of the former stepped system. Beyond that, scaling for category level, field size, team, etc required more work and really didn't make the BAR system any more effective at rewarding participation...which was its original intent. (The one caveat was at CCX. Dunno about this year, but last year, I saw the larger fields at the big events with winners earning 1.5x the usual BAR points schedule due to huge fields.)

It's definitely not because nobody cared.

Fish

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Cheryl Willson
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:21 PM
To: OBRA remailer
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

"No one cared" is definitely not true. A lot of people care and it makes a lot of work. Perhaps no one agreed with your specific suggestions though.

On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Evan Plews wrote:

The BAR is a joke. I tried to offer some ideas for improvement for rule changes last year and either no one cared or thought the current system is better. There likely is no perfect solution and I don't profess to have the answers. In any case winning the BAR has nothing to do with being the "best" ALL AROUND RIDER.

I will go on the record in support of Ron Strasser being one of the COOLEST GUYS I know so I am glad he is "winning" the BAR!

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

From: rondot@spiritone.com
To: kenji@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:19:59 -0800
Subject: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people. Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for all disciplines in my opinion.
Thanks for listening and considering.
ron
_______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org _______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Evan Plews

Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.

My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...

Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
> From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change."
>
> *********
>
> Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
>
> Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up Every Week.
>
> Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>
> It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)
>
> Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile quest.
> _______________________________________________
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beth h

Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change."

*********

Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.

Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered, Just For Showing Up Every Week.

Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.

It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week! Yikes!)

Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile quest.

Fischer, Jim E (Corvallis)

Cheryl, Candi, Mike, Kenji, Brian List, Seth May (and others) and I have batted this around for years. Changes should be made to fix something that is broken or not working as designed. When it came down to it, the system was working as designed - to encourage participation.

For a serious gage of competitive ability, we have the Oregon Cup, the OBRA Champs in all disciplines, or the various regional or national events. These events are often weighted more heavily for BAR totals.

The BAR points assignments were changed last year (linearly scaled 15 down to 1 pt for 1st through 15th) instead of the former stepped system. Beyond that, scaling for category level, field size, team, etc required more work and really didn't make the BAR system any more effective at rewarding participation...which was its original intent. (The one caveat was at CCX. Dunno about this year, but last year, I saw the larger fields at the big events with winners earning 1.5x the usual BAR points schedule due to huge fields.)

It's definitely not because nobody cared.

Fish

________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Cheryl Willson
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:21 PM
To: OBRA remailer
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

"No one cared" is definitely not true. A lot of people care and it makes a lot of work. Perhaps no one agreed with your specific suggestions though.

On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Evan Plews wrote:

The BAR is a joke. I tried to offer some ideas for improvement for rule changes last year and either no one cared or thought the current system is better. There likely is no perfect solution and I don't profess to have the answers. In any case winning the BAR has nothing to do with being the "best" ALL AROUND RIDER.

I will go on the record in support of Ron Strasser being one of the COOLEST GUYS I know so I am glad he is "winning" the BAR!

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

________________________________
From: rondot@spiritone.com
To: kenji@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:19:59 -0800
Subject: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people. Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for all disciplines in my opinion.
Thanks for listening and considering.
ron

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sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com

Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethinkYa I second that : ) BAR should stand for Bad Ass Ron : )
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Hoffman
To: Mike & Candi Murray ;
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

Shouldn't Ron get double points in the Cool Guy BAR points catagory

On 12/14/10 12:02 PM, "Mike & Candi Murray" wrote:

I agree that Ron is one of the coolest guys I know. He is not winning the BAR, he has the most ccx points for the masters, but that is a long way from winning the BAR.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Evan Plews wrote:

The BAR is a joke. I tried to offer some ideas for improvement for rule changes last year and either no one cared or thought the current system is better. There likely is no perfect solution and I don't profess to have the answers. In any case winning the BAR has nothing to do with being the "best" ALL AROUND RIDER.

I will go on the record in support of Ron Strasser being one of the COOLEST GUYS I know so I am glad he is "winning" the BAR!

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rondot@spiritone.com
To: kenji@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:19:59 -0800
Subject: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people. Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for all disciplines in my opinion.
Thanks for listening and considering.
ron

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Thomas Hoffman
Real Estate Broker

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Office Phone: 503-645-0638
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Thomas Hoffman

Shouldn¹t Ron get double points in the Cool Guy BAR points catagory

On 12/14/10 12:02 PM, "Mike & Candi Murray" wrote:

> I agree that Ron is one of the coolest guys I know. He is not winning the
> BAR, he has the most ccx points for the masters, but that is a long way from
> winning the BAR.
>
> Candi
>
> On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Evan Plews wrote:
>
>> The BAR is a joke. I tried to offer some ideas for improvement for rule
>> changes last year and either no one cared or thought the current system is
>> better. There likely is no perfect solution and I don't profess to have the
>> answers. In any case winning the BAR has nothing to do with being the "best"
>> ALL AROUND RIDER.
>>
>> I will go on the record in support of Ron Strasser being one of the COOLEST
>> GUYS I know so I am glad he is "winning" the BAR!
>>
>> Evan Plews
>> www.evanplews.com
>> 503-949-4879
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: rondot@spiritone.com
>> To: kenji@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
>> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:19:59 -0800
>> Subject: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>
>> I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing the
>> cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see I did
>> indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
>> If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build
>> bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and
>> races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people.
>> Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
>> I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to
>> "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at
>> the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had
>> more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race
>> more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in
>> races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I
>> am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA
>> to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it does not
>> say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th or even
>> 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for all
>> disciplines in my opinion.
>> Thanks for listening and considering.
>> ron
>>
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe:
>> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Thomas Hoffman
Real Estate Broker

RE/MAX equity group, inc.
Office Phone: 503-645-0638
Direct Phone: 503-495-5607
Fax: 503-495-5703
Email: thoffman@equitygroup.com

Cheryl Willson

"No one cared" is definitely not true. A lot of people care and it makes a lot of work. Perhaps no one agreed with your specific suggestions though.

On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Evan Plews wrote:

> The BAR is a joke. I tried to offer some ideas for improvement for rule changes last year and either no one cared or thought the current system is better. There likely is no perfect solution and I don't profess to have the answers. In any case winning the BAR has nothing to do with being the "best" ALL AROUND RIDER.
>
> I will go on the record in support of Ron Strasser being one of the COOLEST GUYS I know so I am glad he is "winning" the BAR!
>
> Evan Plews
> www.evanplews.com
> 503-949-4879
>
>
>
>
> From: rondot@spiritone.com
> To: kenji@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:19:59 -0800
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
> If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people. Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
> I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for all disciplines in my opinion.
> Thanks for listening and considering.
> ron
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Candi Murray

I agree that Ron is one of the coolest guys I know. He is not winning the BAR, he has the most ccx points for the masters, but that is a long way from winning the BAR.

Candi

On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:52 AM, Evan Plews wrote:

> The BAR is a joke. I tried to offer some ideas for improvement for rule changes last year and either no one cared or thought the current system is better. There likely is no perfect solution and I don't profess to have the answers. In any case winning the BAR has nothing to do with being the "best" ALL AROUND RIDER.
>
> I will go on the record in support of Ron Strasser being one of the COOLEST GUYS I know so I am glad he is "winning" the BAR!
>
> Evan Plews
> www.evanplews.com
> 503-949-4879
>
>
>
>
> From: rondot@spiritone.com
> To: kenji@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:19:59 -0800
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>
> I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
> If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people. Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
> I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for all disciplines in my opinion.
> Thanks for listening and considering.
> ron
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Evan Plews

The BAR is a joke. I tried to offer some ideas for improvement for rule changes last year and either no one cared or thought the current system is better. There likely is no perfect solution and I don't profess to have the answers. In any case winning the BAR has nothing to do with being the "best" ALL AROUND RIDER.

I will go on the record in support of Ron Strasser being one of the COOLEST GUYS I know so I am glad he is "winning" the BAR!

Evan Plews
www.evanplews.com
503-949-4879

From: rondot@spiritone.com
To: kenji@obra.org; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 11:19:59 -0800
Subject: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people. Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for all disciplines in my opinion.
Thanks for listening and considering.
ron
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Chris Alling

Ron

You are correct that the masters, womens and juniors BAR is a participation
score. I have seen it many times when a cat 5 shows up to all of the races
and by his or her mere presence at the most races wins the BAR at the end of
the year. It has been particularly true with our fellow racers down south
which have a smaller turnout (everybody gets BAR points) than the races in
the metro area.

Now before I get a bunch of hate mail I will freely admit that I have been
known to pick and choose a few races to strategically get my participation
points in order to move my ranking higher.

Chris

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Ron and Dorothy Strasser
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 11:20 AM
To: T. Kenji Sugahara; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink

I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing
the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see
I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.

If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build
bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and
races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people.
Don't drive or ride over that bridge!

I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to
"Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at
the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had
more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race
more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results
in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not
mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others)
in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it
does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th
or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for
all disciplines in my opinion.

Thanks for listening and considering.

ron

Tim Schauer

Maybe the current system of BAR points could be utilized as a "call up" tool
for mass start events, such as short track, cyclocross, etc. Now, for series
like the Crusade and the PIR short track I think series points should be the
first row, but after that BAR points for that discipline (as currently
tracked) for second and third row. This would encourage participation in the
smaller events and support the smaller promoters trying to diversify our
racing options.

Isn't this how the UCI utilizes their points rankings? Not that they should
be our model, but I think we take from others what works for us and leave
the rest.

Tim Schauer

Sent from my mobile device

On Dec 14, 2010, at 11:20 AM, Ron and Dorothy Strasser
wrote:

I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing
the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see
I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build
bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and
races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people.
Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to
"Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at
the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had
more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race
more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results
in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not
mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others)
in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it
does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th
or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for
all disciplines in my opinion.
Thanks for listening and considering.
ron

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ron and Dorothy Strasser

I was talking to "V" a couple of weeks back and he tells me I am crushing the cyclocross BAR. I say it does not mean much. Today I check it and see I did indeed have most points in the master cross BAR.
If we were using the method used to determine winner of BAR to also build bridges and buildings, we would be in deep doo-doo. Ronnie shows up and races so he gets to build a bridge?....an ART Major? Go figure people. Don't drive or ride over that bridge!
I do not have a vote, but suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ" (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a change. If I won the PC champ, that is fine, but it does not say I am the best rider....... I would be in full bliss with a 45th or even 65th on a functional (instead of dysfunctional) BAR. This goes for all disciplines in my opinion.
Thanks for listening and considering.
ron