sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
well spoken from BAR Ron...Bad Ass Ron....whole new meaning to BAR....he's the man...
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron and Dorothy Strasser
To: Steven Beardsley ; John Sindell
Cc: OBRA
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Proposed BAR change
OK. Forgive me OBRA for I have sinned...I mentioned the BAR. Part of me is smiling, another wincing as most racers do not want to read about this. But. Steven may actually be onto some of what I am talking about. I drive to Eugene and race Psycho because it is a blast...same as the Salem area races. I do not do it to get points. It is a different type of race (BY FAR) than the Crusade, or Barlow for example. But.... my point is I have the luxury of going to those races (yes it is my choice...but it is my choice to participate), it does not have ANYTHING to do with BEST. Anyone who can afford to drive from Southern Oregon up to races in the North have the financial ability to do so or a team working together to make it happen. The same is true with regard to people heading south to race. If I could support (financially and my body) all of them, I would. But if I did, all I would be doing is "participating". I do not know what the "Oregon Cup" is, but assume it is all about road or crit racing. That is great! I like the idea a BAR that does take into account different disciplines. That makes sense...best all-round rider. The ideas put out about dividing by cats might be good, I just do not know. I know that finding a way that can make someone feel good about taking part and finishing in points is not the same as being the strongest rider. I know all about how points accumulate in a series and do not want to take away from that, but defining a race with four 50+ racers even remotely to one with 35 is not a realistic comparison. I know some adjustments were made (they were mentioned last winter). Promoters are great for offering a 50+ cat as it gets the old set off the sofa, but maybe if there are not at least some number (5-10 say in cross), then throw us in with the C or B masters. To me that would make more sense (yes we might suck big time and not get any points), but it makes more sense that someone getting points for a race with three people. I can afford to drive to Eugene and I win the 50+ race with three riders. I get 3 points and win the bar over someone who could not afford the trip or had to work or..... Participation could easily be determined by funds to show up and ride....but it has little to do with Best. This could be discussed until we puke. Some might already have done the Technicolor Yawn. I like the idea of people interested in changes, really following up with suggestions at the annual meeting as that seems to be the place to present said ideas. I am sorry this has taken off with so many comments (there are good ideas for sure) as it gets rather over the top. Maybe people with concrete ideas can email each other off list if they feel they could work together to make a proposal.
I am done....hey I won the Master Cross Bar.... :-) I do think people do care about OBRA and be nice to each other...life is short!
I am not a huge kermesse fan (love those barriers and mud pits), but if someone wanted to try that again out at PIR, they might give it a go in the spring (a blooming kermesse).....problem is working it in with all the other auto/motorcycle events that take place as the weather improves
Lets let the list move on!
ron
----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Beardsley
To: John Sindell
Cc: OBRA
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Proposed BAR change
Agreed, but there is too much money in the BAR so I think that won't happen until we get congressional intervention.
On Tue, 2010-12-14 at 23:51 +0000, John Sindell wrote:
BAR will never be fair until we can put together a true playoff system.
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Matt Martel
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 3:46 PM
To: Candi Murray
Cc: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Proposed BAR change
Wow! This is a huge string and I didnt get to read all of it. Sorry, I may be repeating someone else's idea.
I like the idea of adding the categories Candi listed. Everyone should be compared to the field they race in. Just makes sense.
It seems to me that the ideal BAR system would consider # of races, difficulty of races (competition and number of racers), and results of course. The first and last are easy to track and we already do this on the OBRA web site.
Difficulty of the races: just like the UCI, I think we can all agree some races are more challenging than others based on how many people show up and who shows up. I think it is no secret that the number and quality of racers that attend the Cross Crusade is higher than the Psycho Cross races for example. This is by no means a slam to the smaller races. They are great and I enjoy them regularly. So why not rate the races like the UCI does? In my opinon, rating the races is the easy part. I think the real work would be to add this to the already lengthy database OBRA maintains.
My two cents...whatever we do, OBRA will still have the best racing scene in the US hands down!
Matt Martel
Pacific Power Blue Sky Racing Team
On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 3:22 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
Great idea, Matt. Let me start
I propose we add two new categories. Masters cat 4/5 men and Masters cat 4 women. Currently all masters points go into the overall masters category. So many times riders who only ride in beginning masters races accrue equal points with the elite masters fields. I propose they have their own competition so that the masters numbers more truly show the higher categories.
Candi
On Dec 14, 2010, at 2:01 PM, Matt Plummer wrote:
> I think this does raise a good point. Now is the time to be thinking
> about issues like this. If people have ideas to improve the current
> system, the annual meeting is just over a month away. So perhaps a
> legitimate discussion about these topics would be helpful. But time to
> put the feelings aside and think about what would be best for the
> overall good of OBRA.
>
> So there's that...
>
> Matt Plummer
> Central Oregon Racing
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Melanie Rathe wrote:
>> WOW! We almost made it to the end of the year without the BAR 'discussion'!
>>
>> Happy New Year everyone ;o)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Randy Dreiling"
>> To: "Candi Murray" , "Evan Plews"
>> Cc: "OBRA" , ""
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 1:38:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>
>> Ron is the man...always so supportive
>>
>> Randy Dreiling
>>
>> Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com
>>
>> Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Candi Murray
>> To: Evan Plews
>> Cc: OBRA ; ""
>>
>> Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 1:15:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>
>> Oh Evan. It is obvious you do not know how things work. Your comment about
>> the management types was after one of the worker bees make a comment. The
>> BAR gets changed when a club recommends a change and presents it at the
>> annual meeting. The clubs vote on the change. There are no management types
>> that make those changes. The Board of Directors don't make any changes. We
>> just need to find a way to score and implement any changes.
>> Candi
>> On Dec 14, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Evan Plews wrote:
>>
>> Let me define "...body" just so all you management types don't get your
>> feelers hurt... def: the general OBRA membership population. I seriously
>> doubt many members even read the rules or want to spend the time on
>> participatory bicycle racing politics. Most members likely can't even name
>> one person on the board of directors. I race a lot, bankroll a team, and I
>> have never had a board member even approach me in the last 10 years unless
>> they were looking for a vote at the annual meeting.
>>
>> My point was/is this: The BAR is want it IS. It rewards race participation
>> at "smaller" events and in small fields. 16th place at Cross Crusade could
>> be a lot better than 1st plan a KFCX and be worth NOTHING. I speak first
>> hand from my results last year. If you want to change it then participate in
>> the politics, too! Not you Ron (I think you do your fair share)...
>>
>> Happy Holidays and don't let constructive criticism get yer panties in a
>> knot--we all need and deserve it from time to time!
>>
>>
>> Evan Plews
>> www.evanplews.com
>> 503-949-4879
>>
>>
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:41:09 -0800
>>> From: periwinklekog@yahoo.com
>>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] BAR-rethink
>>>
>>> Ron wrote: "...suggest you change the name of BAR to "Participation Champ"
>>> (don't ya love that abbreviation.....PC). I look at the riders finishing
>>> below me and know it means almost NOTHING that I had more points. Most of
>>> them can crush me on the course.....All I did was race more races. There
>>> needs to be a system that actually rewards their results in races...not just
>>> number of races. As set up now, the system does not mean I am the Best Cross
>>> master. I urge the powers to be (Kenji and others) in OBRA to look at a
>>> change."
>>>
>>> *********
>>>
>>> Along with that, it would be helpful to send out an introductory
>>> explanation of what BAR is, and what it's for. I didn't even realize it
>>> existed until near the end of this, my second season of racing; and I found
>>> it by clicking idly on my results from a race one day.
>>>
>>> Based on pure math, I am somehow ranked 3rd in some sub-set of singlespeed
>>> (short-track), simply by virtue of showing up and killing myself regularly
>>> at the PIR series this summer. My placings were at the bottom but this is
>>> not reflected in the math. This method was also applied in figuring out the
>>> series overall for the short-track series -- I got fifth overallin my
>>> category even though I placed last or near-last at every race I entered,
>>> Just For Showing Up Every Week.
>>>
>>> Believe me, I was amazed at that outcome too.
>>>
>>> It sounds like people do care about BAR, and more than a few might be
>>> shocked/stunned/upset if someone like me ever won an actual award in BAR
>>> points when I'm still one of the slowest racers in the known universe. (Fear
>>> not, I'm working on that for next year... I started spin classes last week!
>>> Yikes!)
>>>
>>> Is there a better system of math that could reflect results as well as
>>> participation? (And, perhaps more importantly, could it be implemented by
>>> someone who doesn't have a Ph.D in String Theory?) Seems like a worthwhile
>>> quest.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
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