OBRA: OBRA Chat: Redefining what a "mechanic...

eric aldinger

2011-03-22

This is not my discipline. Could someone explain the reason for giving a lap
for a mechanical or crash? Also, is it not permitted for the rider to simply
stop and put a chain back on outside of the pit? If that is disallowed for
safety reasons it seems like it could qualify as a mechanical dependant upon
the official's judgement.

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 10:53 PM, Mark J. Ginsberg
wrote:

> i was thinking of Lance, when you threw him out b/c he was pissed at me,
> but I am sure it happened to Klipper once too, right?
>
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Mike Murray
> *To:* "remailer, OBRA"
> *Sent:* Mon, March 21, 2011 10:49:08 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit
>
> I know you have seen someone ejected from the velodrome at LEAST one time,
> probably MORE than one time.
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Mark J. Ginsberg"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:39:16
> To: Ty Mangum;
> Reply-To: "Mark J. Ginsberg"
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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>
>

--
Eric Aldinger

Mark J. Ginsberg

2011-03-22

i was thinking of Lance, when you threw him out b/c he was pissed at me, but I
am sure it happened to Klipper once too, right?

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Mike Murray
To: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Mon, March 21, 2011 10:49:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit

I know you have seen someone ejected from the velodrome at LEAST one time,
probably MORE than one time.

Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mark J. Ginsberg"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:39:16
To: Ty Mangum;
Reply-To: "Mark J. Ginsberg"
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit

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Mike Murray

2011-03-22

I know you have seen someone ejected from the velodrome at LEAST one time, probably MORE than one time.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mark J. Ginsberg"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:39:16
To: Ty Mangum;
Reply-To: "Mark J. Ginsberg"
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit

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Erik Anderson

2011-03-22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azqituimwI8&feature=player_embedded#at=204

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Tyler Mangum wrote:

> Candi,
>
> Thanks for responding.
>
> To clarify, in this circumstance, I didn't think the problem was caused by
> inadequate preparation or failure of maintenance on my part. The issue
> happened after a clear sudden jolt on the race course to the bike which
> knocked the chain off the pulley without any previous issues. Nothing I
> would have done before the race could have prevented it, and it didn't
> happen until halfway through. I understand the OBRA rules, although it was a
> USAC race for collegiate, however it felt like a legitimate mechanical
> (clearly debatable) that is not covered under the rules. I did respect the
> decisions of the officials, but at the same time it just felt like a
> terrible way to end someones race for a mistake that was out of my control
> (as a flat tire or crash would be). I would even argue that a crash is more
> controllable to what happened to the rear derailleur, especially more than
> just "falling down" because you're behind a crash.
>
> Again, I understand the rules, and that so many have already pointed out
> that my "mechanical" is not justified by a free lap, but at the same time I
> think it should have been. I also realize I am fully biased in my
> statements, and that this point is clearly debatable from both sides.
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
>
>> Ty
>> Respectfully, you should read the rule book, it is posted on the OBRA
>> site. Here are the pertinent ones regarding free laps
>>
>> *
>>
>> 15.4.6 Free laps
>> *
>>
>> Free laps may be granted for mishaps as follows:
>>
>> A. If the race announcement states that the free lap rule is not in
>> effect, no free laps will be given.
>>
>> B. No free laps will be granted during the last 8 km. of a race. A rider
>> having a mishap during the last 8 km. must make up any distance lost.
>>
>> C. In case of a mishap, the rider(s) will report to a pit with his
>> bicycle. Riders may not ride backward on the course to get to a pit, but
>> may cut through the course to reach a pit. A rider my proceed backwards to
>> the pit carrying his bicycle.
>>
>> D. A referee will inspect the bicycle and rider to determine if the mishap
>> was legitimate. The pit referee will inform the Chief Judge and Chief
>> Referee of all free lap decisions as soon as possible
>>
>> E. Normally a rider must return to the race within one lap. In case
>> of a very short course (generally under 1 kilometer) the Chief Referee
>> may allow two laps per mishap.
>>
>> F. If the mishap was legitimate the rider will be returned to the place he
>> was in the race at the time of the mishap. If he was in a group he will be
>> returned to the rear of that group. The rider will be ineligible for any
>> sprint prize for one lap after his return.
>>
>> G. A rider is entitled to one free lap per mishap
>>
>>
>> *
>>
>> 2.11 Mishap
>> *
>>
>> A crash, puncture, or failure of an essential part of the bicycle.
>> Problems caused by inadequate preparation or failure to adequately tighten
>> or fasten components to the bicycle are not mishaps.
>>
>> From your recount of the circumstances, everything was done properly.
>>
>> Candi
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Ty Mangum
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 21, 2011 7:47 PM
>> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit
>>
>> Disclaimer, this is in no way an insult/jab at the officials of this
>> weekend.
>>
>> I recently competed in the Capitol Crit racing Collegiate, and at minute
>> 30 of 60 I had a "mechanical." Simply put, my chain came off the top pulley
>> of my RD after hitting a bump in the course, and I couldn't pedal or shift
>> properly. I came to a stop in the pit while still with the group, told the
>> officials what happend, showed them why I couldn't race like this (lifted up
>> the rear wheel, tried to shift etc...) manually put the chain back on with
>> my hands, and then was told I "better get to chasing" because I wouldn't be
>> awarded a free lap. I was shocked at first, thought I could argue later on
>> that I shouldn't be a lap down (the incident happened again and I realized I
>> had no further argument), but I thought that it was a TERRIBLE rule that you
>> either have to have a flat or crash to be rewarded a free lap.
>> Is it time that we reward free laps for mechanicals OTHER THAN flats and
>> crashes? Where should we draw the line? I am clearly biased in that my
>> results were skewed from the incident, but after asking teammates and
>> witnesses that were there, they were also shocked that I didn't get 1 free
>> lap. What would have been the harm in giving me one extra from an obvious
>> mechanical issue that needed to be fixed?
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3521 - Release Date: 03/21/11
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Tyler Mangum

2011-03-22

Candi,

Thanks for responding.

To clarify, in this circumstance, I didn't think the problem was caused by
inadequate preparation or failure of maintenance on my part. The issue
happened after a clear sudden jolt on the race course to the bike which
knocked the chain off the pulley without any previous issues. Nothing I
would have done before the race could have prevented it, and it didn't
happen until halfway through. I understand the OBRA rules, although it was a
USAC race for collegiate, however it felt like a legitimate mechanical
(clearly debatable) that is not covered under the rules. I did respect the
decisions of the officials, but at the same time it just felt like a
terrible way to end someones race for a mistake that was out of my control
(as a flat tire or crash would be). I would even argue that a crash is more
controllable to what happened to the rear derailleur, especially more than
just "falling down" because you're behind a crash.

Again, I understand the rules, and that so many have already pointed out
that my "mechanical" is not justified by a free lap, but at the same time I
think it should have been. I also realize I am fully biased in my
statements, and that this point is clearly debatable from both sides.

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Candi Murray wrote:

> Ty
> Respectfully, you should read the rule book, it is posted on the OBRA
> site. Here are the pertinent ones regarding free laps
>
> *
>
> 15.4.6 Free laps
> *
>
> Free laps may be granted for mishaps as follows:
>
> A. If the race announcement states that the free lap rule is not in effect,
> no free laps will be given.
>
> B. No free laps will be granted during the last 8 km. of a race. A rider
> having a mishap during the last 8 km. must make up any distance lost.
>
> C. In case of a mishap, the rider(s) will report to a pit with his
> bicycle. Riders may not ride backward on the course to get to a pit, but
> may cut through the course to reach a pit. A rider my proceed backwards to
> the pit carrying his bicycle.
>
> D. A referee will inspect the bicycle and rider to determine if the mishap
> was legitimate. The pit referee will inform the Chief Judge and Chief
> Referee of all free lap decisions as soon as possible
>
> E. Normally a rider must return to the race within one lap. In case
> of a very short course (generally under 1 kilometer) the Chief Referee may
> allow two laps per mishap.
>
> F. If the mishap was legitimate the rider will be returned to the place he
> was in the race at the time of the mishap. If he was in a group he will be
> returned to the rear of that group. The rider will be ineligible for any
> sprint prize for one lap after his return.
>
> G. A rider is entitled to one free lap per mishap
>
>
> *
>
> 2.11 Mishap
> *
>
> A crash, puncture, or failure of an essential part of the bicycle. Problems
> caused by inadequate preparation or failure to adequately tighten or fasten
> components to the bicycle are not mishaps.
>
> From your recount of the circumstances, everything was done properly.
>
> Candi
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Ty Mangum
> *Sent:* Monday, March 21, 2011 7:47 PM
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit
>
> Disclaimer, this is in no way an insult/jab at the officials of this
> weekend.
>
> I recently competed in the Capitol Crit racing Collegiate, and at minute 30
> of 60 I had a "mechanical." Simply put, my chain came off the top pulley of
> my RD after hitting a bump in the course, and I couldn't pedal or shift
> properly. I came to a stop in the pit while still with the group, told the
> officials what happend, showed them why I couldn't race like this (lifted up
> the rear wheel, tried to shift etc...) manually put the chain back on with
> my hands, and then was told I "better get to chasing" because I wouldn't be
> awarded a free lap. I was shocked at first, thought I could argue later on
> that I shouldn't be a lap down (the incident happened again and I realized I
> had no further argument), but I thought that it was a TERRIBLE rule that you
> either have to have a flat or crash to be rewarded a free lap.
> Is it time that we reward free laps for mechanicals OTHER THAN flats and
> crashes? Where should we draw the line? I am clearly biased in that my
> results were skewed from the incident, but after asking teammates and
> witnesses that were there, they were also shocked that I didn't get 1 free
> lap. What would have been the harm in giving me one extra from an obvious
> mechanical issue that needed to be fixed?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> ------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1498/3521 - Release Date: 03/21/11
>

Mark J. Ginsberg

2011-03-22

well,

1. what Candi said, rtfm

2. that's why crit racers all know when a crash happens if you are stuck behind
it you don't just put a foot down, you fall down too, then get up go to pit,
take your free lap and jump back in. now you know, but let's keep it our secret,
i hope no one else is reading this.

3. thank the officials for not DQ'ing you for being mean to them in the heat of
passion during the race. I once saw a racer ejected from the velodrome for
cursing. I also once saw a racer arrested for yelling and threatening a
promoter, but that was back east and it was the 198o's so that doesn't count.

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Ty Mangum
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Mon, March 21, 2011 7:46:53 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit

Disclaimer, this is in no way an insult/jab at the officials of this weekend.

I recently competed in the Capitol Crit racing Collegiate, and at minute 30 of
60 I had a "mechanical." Simply put, my chain came off the top pulley of my RD
after hitting a bump in the course, and I couldn't pedal or shift properly. I
came to a stop in the pit while still with the group, told the officials what
happend, showed them why I couldn't race like this (lifted up the rear wheel,
tried to shift etc...) manually put the chain back on with my hands, and then
was told I "better get to chasing" because I wouldn't be awarded a free lap. I
was shocked at first, thought I could argue later on that I shouldn't be a lap
down (the incident happened again and I realized I had no further argument), but
I thought that it was a TERRIBLE rule that you either have to have a flat or
crash to be rewarded a free lap.

Is it time that we reward free laps for mechanicals OTHER THAN flats and
crashes? Where should we draw the line? I am clearly biased in that my results
were skewed from the incident, but after asking teammates and witnesses that
were there, they were also shocked that I didn't get 1 free lap. What would have
been the harm in giving me one extra from an obvious mechanical issue that
needed to be fixed?
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

2011-03-22

> Crit and track racers are wimpy that way.

Love that one Mike!
:-D

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

On 3/21/2011 10:30 PM, Mike Murray wrote:
> Crit and track racers are wimpy that way.

Kevin

2011-03-22

Oh be careful there Mike, pretty soon all those folks who race ultras will be
calling folks who race anything under 500 miles wimpy! ;-)

________________________________
From: Mike Murray
To: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Mon, March 21, 2011 10:30:40 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit

(snip)

I have to point out that in a road, cross or mtn bike race when you flat or
crash you have to catch up on your own and there is no free lap equivalent. Crit
and track racers are wimpy that way.

Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Mike Murray

2011-03-22

A mechanical is a crash or breaking of an essential part of the bike. If the part is not essential (e. g. water bottle cage) or the part malfunctions but does not break then it is not a mechanical. I guess having a part not work or malfunction is more of an "organizational". When you get too tired to hang on then that is a "biological". The standard internationally is what it is currently. Anyone could propose that the OBRA rules be changed to give a free lap for anything you want but I would hope that the proposal would not pass.

I have to point out that in a road, cross or mtn bike race when you flat or crash you have to catch up on your own and there is no free lap equivalent. Crit and track racers are wimpy that way.
Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Ty Mangum
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:46:53
To:
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit

Disclaimer, this is in no way an insult/jab at the officials of this weekend.

I recently competed in the Capitol Crit racing Collegiate, and at minute 30 of 60 I had a "mechanical." Simply put, my chain came off the top pulley of my RD after hitting a bump in the course, and I couldn't pedal or shift properly. I came to a stop in the pit while still with the group, told the officials what happend, showed them why I couldn't race like this (lifted up the rear wheel, tried to shift etc...) manually put the chain back on with my hands, and then was told I "better get to chasing" because I wouldn't be awarded a free lap. I was shocked at first, thought I could argue later on that I shouldn't be a lap down (the incident happened again and I realized I had no further argument), but I thought that it was a TERRIBLE rule that you either have to have a flat or crash to be rewarded a free lap.
Is it time that we reward free laps for mechanicals OTHER THAN flats and crashes? Where should we draw the line? I am clearly biased in that my results were skewed from the incident, but after asking teammates and witnesses that were there, they were also shocked that I didn't get 1 free lap. What would have been the harm in giving me one extra from an obvious mechanical issue that needed to be fixed?
_______________________________________________
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Candi Murray

2011-03-22

Ty
Respectfully, you should read the rule book, it is posted on the OBRA site.
Here are the pertinent ones regarding free laps

15.4.6 Free laps

Free laps may be granted for mishaps as follows:

A. If the race announcement states that the free lap rule is not in effect,
no free laps will be given.

B. No free laps will be granted during the last 8 km. of a race. A rider
having a mishap during the last 8 km. must make up any distance lost.

C. In case of a mishap, the rider(s) will report to a pit with his bicycle.
Riders may not ride backward on the course to get to a pit, but may cut
through the course to reach a pit. A rider my proceed backwards to the pit
carrying his bicycle.

D. A referee will inspect the bicycle and rider to determine if the mishap
was legitimate. The pit referee will inform the Chief Judge and Chief
Referee of all free lap decisions as soon as possible

E. Normally a rider must return to the race within one lap. In case of a
very short course (generally under 1 kilometer) the Chief Referee may allow
two laps per mishap.

F. If the mishap was legitimate the rider will be returned to the place he
was in the race at the time of the mishap. If he was in a group he will be
returned to the rear of that group. The rider will be ineligible for any
sprint prize for one lap after his return.

G. A rider is entitled to one free lap per mishap

2.11 Mishap

A crash, puncture, or failure of an essential part of the bicycle. Problems
caused by inadequate preparation or failure to adequately tighten or fasten
components to the bicycle are not mishaps.

>From your recount of the circumstances, everything was done properly.

Candi

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Ty Mangum
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 7:47 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Redefining what a "mechanical" is in a crit

Disclaimer, this is in no way an insult/jab at the officials of this
weekend.

I recently competed in the Capitol Crit racing Collegiate, and at minute 30
of 60 I had a "mechanical." Simply put, my chain came off the top pulley of
my RD after hitting a bump in the course, and I couldn't pedal or shift
properly. I came to a stop in the pit while still with the group, told the
officials what happend, showed them why I couldn't race like this (lifted up
the rear wheel, tried to shift etc...) manually put the chain back on with
my hands, and then was told I "better get to chasing" because I wouldn't be
awarded a free lap. I was shocked at first, thought I could argue later on
that I shouldn't be a lap down (the incident happened again and I realized I
had no further argument), but I thought that it was a TERRIBLE rule that you
either have to have a flat or crash to be rewarded a free lap.
Is it time that we reward free laps for mechanicals OTHER THAN flats and
crashes? Where should we draw the line? I am clearly biased in that my
results were skewed from the incident, but after asking teammates and
witnesses that were there, they were also shocked that I didn't get 1 free
lap. What would have been the harm in giving me one extra from an obvious
mechanical issue that needed to be fixed?
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_____

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Tim Schauer

2011-03-22

Mechanical "Free Laps" are reserved for bike problems outside your control.
The condition in which you maintain your bike is within your control.

Also it has been alleged that riders have actually fained random mechanical
shifting problems or loose seat post clamp, etc to gain the advantage of
sitting out a lap or two mid race.....

if the race you are in didn't cause problem with your bike then the race
doesn't owe you a free lap.

That's racing.....

Tim Schauer

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Ty Mangum wrote:

> Disclaimer, this is in no way an insult/jab at the officials of this
> weekend.
>
> I recently competed in the Capitol Crit racing Collegiate, and at minute 30
> of 60 I had a "mechanical." Simply put, my chain came off the top pulley of
> my RD after hitting a bump in the course, and I couldn't pedal or shift
> properly. I came to a stop in the pit while still with the group, told the
> officials what happend, showed them why I couldn't race like this (lifted up
> the rear wheel, tried to shift etc...) manually put the chain back on with
> my hands, and then was told I "better get to chasing" because I wouldn't be
> awarded a free lap. I was shocked at first, thought I could argue later on
> that I shouldn't be a lap down (the incident happened again and I realized I
> had no further argument), but I thought that it was a TERRIBLE rule that you
> either have to have a flat or crash to be rewarded a free lap.
> Is it time that we reward free laps for mechanicals OTHER THAN flats and
> crashes? Where should we draw the line? I am clearly biased in that my
> results were skewed from the incident, but after asking teammates and
> witnesses that were there, they were also shocked that I didn't get 1 free
> lap. What would have been the harm in giving me one extra from an obvious
> mechanical issue that needed to be fixed?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Ty Mangum

2011-03-22

Disclaimer, this is in no way an insult/jab at the officials of this weekend.

I recently competed in the Capitol Crit racing Collegiate, and at minute 30 of 60 I had a "mechanical." Simply put, my chain came off the top pulley of my RD after hitting a bump in the course, and I couldn't pedal or shift properly. I came to a stop in the pit while still with the group, told the officials what happend, showed them why I couldn't race like this (lifted up the rear wheel, tried to shift etc...) manually put the chain back on with my hands, and then was told I "better get to chasing" because I wouldn't be awarded a free lap. I was shocked at first, thought I could argue later on that I shouldn't be a lap down (the incident happened again and I realized I had no further argument), but I thought that it was a TERRIBLE rule that you either have to have a flat or crash to be rewarded a free lap.
Is it time that we reward free laps for mechanicals OTHER THAN flats and crashes? Where should we draw the line? I am clearly biased in that my results were skewed from the incident, but after asking teammates and witnesses that were there, they were also shocked that I didn't get 1 free lap. What would have been the harm in giving me one extra from an obvious mechanical issue that needed to be fixed?