Randy

Let what go?
My right to speak
Don't think I'll be doing that
Thanks for the offer

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 8, 2011, at 9:59 AM, "Gary Malcolm" wrote:

>
> Randy, Russ and Rizzow et al.,
>
> Tickets are handed to people who violate traffic ordinances. When they
> pay the fine, they and society are then even, it's all over guys. Let it
> go.
>
> (with extra TROLL)
>
> Why must supposedly free people be continuously bombarded by snoops,
> busy bodies, yentas, buttinskies, and otherwise pleasant people who just
> have to have everything just so. This is not Germany (hmmm, not going
> there). If you want to live by "their" rules - go ahead -
> congratulations! I did that for just as long as I wore a team jersey.
> Thank God that's over and now I can ride like a free cyclist with the
> yoke removed from my neck.
>
> I accept the consequences of ignoring car rules - the great car owner
> ruling class can freely run me down, fine me hundreds of dollars and
> generally hate me because of my fine muscled legs. Who cares? Not me.
> Will they run your 4 year old daughter down out of frustration because
> they couldn't catch me as I turned the wrong way down that one way
> street, swerving through traffic? Hey, take that up with the strangely
> angry, homicidal gas burners. NOT my issue. Oh, also I don't care about
> your insurance rates - as money always seems to be key core issue in
> this silliness - take it up with your legislators on the industry
> payrolls.
>
> Mostly your notes remind me of coworkers who insist that open toed
> sandals can only be worn at work between June and August. They also know
> the page number in the employee manual which they will remind you of on
> their precisely 15 minute long 10 o'clock break.
>
> One more thing, people sometimes pee and often on trees and other
> plants. In fact, peeing in a sparkling ceramic bowl of potable water
> could be considered the strange behavior... Anyway, this is not yet a
> sex crime + it's good fertilizer! Really it's OK, honest try it - it's
> quite relieving.
>
>
>
> God that felt good, it's been simmering for months.
>
> **Public tar and feathering to commence in 4,2,3,1...**
>
> Happy Cycling,
>
> Gary Malcolm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Randy Dreiling
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 8:04 AM
> To: Russ Rainforth; dacrizzow
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
>
>
> I went down Eugene and had dinner at the Steelhead Brewery. Myself and
> my friends whom are all cyclist watch the 4 way stop there for 10
> minutes...NOT A SINGLE person stop. Not one NONE of the bike riders
> stopped at the stop signs!
> We were all very disappointed. None of the riders were in race kits,
> most were people with out helmets in street clothes, but still it is no
> wonder people get upset with bike riders at times.
>
> Randy Dreiling
> Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com Promoter - Mt Bike
> Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Russ Rainforth
> To: dacrizzow
> Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
> Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 7:51:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
> That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
> I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and
> I'd love
> to see them absolutely everywhere...
>
> And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the
>
> near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.
>
> Russ R
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow wrote:
>
>> that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called
> out to the
>> other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed
> responses.
>> the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on
> the street
>> is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who
> comes to
>> this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense.
> but
>> given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's
> also a
>> good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel.
> educating new/
>> younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by
> example. i
>> mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now
> you see
>> people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in
> restuarants
>> trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the
> cyclists can
>> be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted
> drivers out
>> there going unchecked. i know my biking b
> eh
>> avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i
> can tell
>> so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i
> don't
>> think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like
> preaching to the
>> choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the
> giro
>> coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal
>> programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow
> signing
>> off.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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dacrizzow

not to beat a dead horse, but...this idea that bikers running red lights are somehow responsible for "enraged" drivers is going a little too far. running a red light does not justify someone using a several ton vehicle as a weapon to teach a lesson.
second-this is something that's been coming up among my non-cycling friends. for the last few years when i'm the only cyclist in the room everyone feels the need to drop off their complaints. it always starts with-'i don't have anything against bikers but why do they all have to...' and then it starts. the funny thing is, it hardly ever has anything to do with running lights. it's usually about riding on streets that the driver feels is too narrow for bikes and cars. the most recent examples were prescott and fremont. i try to explain that it's legal and all that but it doesn't do any good. this is from several differrent social groups and ages. most of the complaints are that we're just in the way. the other complaint is just the way we look. you know, being described as guys who think they're lance or bikers are ok except the guys riding around on $5,000 bikes. then it goes to the guys in the "lawnchairs" (recumbents), tall bikes, and trail-a-bikes. in my experience, recu
mbents, lance guys and trail-a-bikes are the most traffic obeying group. i'm not trying to stoke a fire. i'm trying to keep an open dialogue. we should be able to feel safe out there w/o worrying if we've inadvertantly pushed someone's buttons. any thoughts? why can't those B.Moinske PSA's be on all our local channels?

Mike Richardson

I do stop - but when I'm driving I'm using a closed 3500-pound deadly weapon. On my bike I have the full attention of knowing I'm the one in the hospital if I screw up. So +1 for no blowing through.

Mike

On Jun 8, 2011, at 11:01 AM, johnfforbes@comcast.net wrote:

> Do you stop for stop signs when driving?
>
> 3641 SW 52nd Place, Portland Oregon, 97221
> 503-422-1239
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Baggett"
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 10:53:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] an open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
> As someone who lives in Eugene and is very familiar with commuting by cycling here, "uptown" Eugene where the Steelhead brewery is, in addition to most of the rest of the city including "downtown" around the bus station is a much different environment traffic-wise than anywhere I've been in Portland or Salem. Aside from a couple car-dominated streets here going to or from the highways across the river, traffic is pretty slow, tame, and bikes and pedestrians are very comfortably integrated. The four-way stop in question in a previous post is in a low-traffic, heavily foot- and bike-travelled area. It's part of the normal ebb and flow of traffic for pedestrians and bikes to coast through, since there's good visibility and slow speeds. It seems to me that what's more important is being familiar with your territory, integrating yourself into the normal and expected model of traffic flow in a certain area, as opposed to following a rigid set of rules in all situations regardle
> ss of other factors. What's the point of stopping at a stop sign where there are clearly no cars coming and you've slowed and looked to be sure of that? The entire point of traffic laws is safety for everyone out on the road, and we're all intelligent beings who can understand when the letter of the traffic laws is inapplicable to safety concerns, i.e., when there IS no traffic. As a rough and probably fallacious analogy, do you wear a life jacket when you aren't out on the water? Of course not...unless you're deathly afraid of flash floods or something.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steve Brown

Eugene is a CF when it comes to bikes. Is it Agate that is one way for cars but has a bike lane going both directs. With a system like that, all bets are off.
On Jun 8, 2011, at 11:08 AM, Scott Jones wrote:

> I second this question by John, do you stop at stop signs when driving? If your answer is yes, then you should when you are on your bike as well.
>
> I lived in Eugene for college as well, and know this (and many other 4-way stop intersections/stop lights) where cyclists (mostly students) don't stop or run them all the time. They do not care and 99% of the time the police down there don't either. This is not just a permit you to run the stop sign. Set an example and stop at the sign, maybe your actions will cause others to treat the stop sign the way it should be treated.
>
> -Scott
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 11:01 AM, wrote:
> Do you stop for stop signs when driving?
>
> 3641 SW 52nd Place, Portland Oregon, 97221
> 503-422-1239
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Baggett"
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 10:53:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] an open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
> As someone who lives in Eugene and is very familiar with commuting by cycling here, "uptown" Eugene where the Steelhead brewery is, in addition to most of the rest of the city including "downtown" around the bus station is a much different environment traffic-wise than anywhere I've been in Portland or Salem. Aside from a couple car-dominated streets here going to or from the highways across the river, traffic is pretty slow, tame, and bikes and pedestrians are very comfortably integrated. The four-way stop in question in a previous post is in a low-traffic, heavily foot- and bike-travelled area. It's part of the normal ebb and flow of traffic for pedestrians and bikes to coast through, since there's good visibility and slow speeds. It seems to me that what's more important is being familiar with your territory, integrating yourself into the normal and expected model of traffic flow in a certain area, as opposed to following a rigid set of rules in all situations regardle
> ss of other factors. What's the point of stopping at a stop sign where there are clearly no cars coming and you've slowed and looked to be sure of that? The entire point of traffic laws is safety for everyone out on the road, and we're all intelligent beings who can understand when the letter of the traffic laws is inapplicable to safety concerns, i.e., when there IS no traffic. As a rough and probably fallacious analogy, do you wear a life jacket when you aren't out on the water? Of course not...unless you're deathly afraid of flash floods or something.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Scott Jones

I second this question by John, do you stop at stop signs when driving? If
your answer is yes, then you should when you are on your bike as well.

I lived in Eugene for college as well, and know this (and many other 4-way
stop intersections/stop lights) where cyclists (mostly students) don't stop
or run them all the time. They do not care and 99% of the time the police
down there don't either. This is not just a permit you to run the stop
sign. Set an example and stop at the sign, maybe your actions will cause
others to treat the stop sign the way it should be treated.

-Scott

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 11:01 AM, wrote:

> Do you stop for stop signs when driving?
>
> 3641 SW 52nd Place, Portland Oregon, 97221
> 503-422-1239
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew Baggett"
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 10:53:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] an open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
> As someone who lives in Eugene and is very familiar with commuting by
> cycling here, "uptown" Eugene where the Steelhead brewery is, in addition to
> most of the rest of the city including "downtown" around the bus station is
> a much different environment traffic-wise than anywhere I've been in
> Portland or Salem. Aside from a couple car-dominated streets here going to
> or from the highways across the river, traffic is pretty slow, tame, and
> bikes and pedestrians are very comfortably integrated. The four-way stop in
> question in a previous post is in a low-traffic, heavily foot- and
> bike-travelled area. It's part of the normal ebb and flow of traffic for
> pedestrians and bikes to coast through, since there's good visibility and
> slow speeds. It seems to me that what's more important is being familiar
> with your territory, integrating yourself into the normal and expected model
> of traffic flow in a certain area, as opposed to following a rigid set of
> rules in all situations regardle
> ss of other factors. What's the point of stopping at a stop sign where
> there are clearly no cars coming and you've slowed and looked to be sure of
> that? The entire point of traffic laws is safety for everyone out on the
> road, and we're all intelligent beings who can understand when the letter of
> the traffic laws is inapplicable to safety concerns, i.e., when there IS no
> traffic. As a rough and probably fallacious analogy, do you wear a life
> jacket when you aren't out on the water? Of course not...unless you're
> deathly afraid of flash floods or something.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

johnfforbes@comcast.net

Do you stop for stop signs when driving?

3641 SW 52nd Place, Portland Oregon, 97221
503-422-1239

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Baggett"
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2011 10:53:20 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] an open letter to my fellow cyclists

As someone who lives in Eugene and is very familiar with commuting by cycling here, "uptown" Eugene where the Steelhead brewery is, in addition to most of the rest of the city including "downtown" around the bus station is a much different environment traffic-wise than anywhere I've been in Portland or Salem. Aside from a couple car-dominated streets here going to or from the highways across the river, traffic is pretty slow, tame, and bikes and pedestrians are very comfortably integrated. The four-way stop in question in a previous post is in a low-traffic, heavily foot- and bike-travelled area. It's part of the normal ebb and flow of traffic for pedestrians and bikes to coast through, since there's good visibility and slow speeds. It seems to me that what's more important is being familiar with your territory, integrating yourself into the normal and expected model of traffic flow in a certain area, as opposed to following a rigid set of rules in all situations regardle
ss of other factors. What's the point of stopping at a stop sign where there are clearly no cars coming and you've slowed and looked to be sure of that? The entire point of traffic laws is safety for everyone out on the road, and we're all intelligent beings who can understand when the letter of the traffic laws is inapplicable to safety concerns, i.e., when there IS no traffic. As a rough and probably fallacious analogy, do you wear a life jacket when you aren't out on the water? Of course not...unless you're deathly afraid of flash floods or something.
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Andrew Baggett

As someone who lives in Eugene and is very familiar with commuting by cycling here, "uptown" Eugene where the Steelhead brewery is, in addition to most of the rest of the city including "downtown" around the bus station is a much different environment traffic-wise than anywhere I've been in Portland or Salem. Aside from a couple car-dominated streets here going to or from the highways across the river, traffic is pretty slow, tame, and bikes and pedestrians are very comfortably integrated. The four-way stop in question in a previous post is in a low-traffic, heavily foot- and bike-travelled area. It's part of the normal ebb and flow of traffic for pedestrians and bikes to coast through, since there's good visibility and slow speeds. It seems to me that what's more important is being familiar with your territory, integrating yourself into the normal and expected model of traffic flow in a certain area, as opposed to following a rigid set of rules in all situations regardle
ss of other factors. What's the point of stopping at a stop sign where there are clearly no cars coming and you've slowed and looked to be sure of that? The entire point of traffic laws is safety for everyone out on the road, and we're all intelligent beings who can understand when the letter of the traffic laws is inapplicable to safety concerns, i.e., when there IS no traffic. As a rough and probably fallacious analogy, do you wear a life jacket when you aren't out on the water? Of course not...unless you're deathly afraid of flash floods or something.

jeff@ultrafreaks.net

Yes, but.  It's a matter of degree.
 
Yes, for cars most stops are technically rolling stops.  But a rolling stop at
0.5-1 mph is completely different than blowing through the stop.  If you charted
speed and pause for cars and bikes you'd see an order of magnitude difference in
the degree of running the stop.  In group rides (training rides, organized
rides, Cycle Oregon, etc) you'll see riders barely touch the brakes as they go
through an intersection at 10-25 mph.  I rarely see that behavior with cars. 

On June 8, 2011 at 1:14 PM Steve Brown wrote:

> I can agree with Randy but if you watch cars at stop signs you observe the
> same thing.  The only person who claims that bicycles not coming to a complete
> and total stop and not mentioning all vehicles is a liar.  The counts I have
> done show less that 5% of all vehicles will come to a complete stop if there
> is not another vehicle impeding progress or a officer present.
>
>
> On Jun 8, 2011, at 9:49 AM, Erik Long wrote:
>
> >
> > How many actually had collisions?
> >  
> > > Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:03:58 -0700
> > > From: raggy23@yahoo.com [mailto:raggy23@yahoo.com]
> > > To: rrroubaix@yahoo.com [mailto:rrroubaix@yahoo.com] ; dacrizzow@gmail.com
> > > [mailto:dacrizzow@gmail.com]
> > > CC: obra@list.obra.org [mailto:obra@list.obra.org]
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I went down Eugene and had dinner at the Steelhead Brewery. Myself and my 
> > > friends whom are all cyclist watch the 4 way stop there for 10
> > > minutes...NOT A 
> > > SINGLE person stop. Not one NONE of the bike riders stopped at the stop
> > > signs! 
> > > We were all very disappointed. None of the riders were in race kits, most
> > > were 
> > > people with out helmets in street clothes, but still it is no wonder
> > > people get 
> > > upset with bike riders at times.
> > > 
> > > Randy Dreiling 
> > > Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com
> > > Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Russ Rainforth
> > > To: dacrizzow
> > > Cc: "obra@list.obra.org [mailto:obra@list.obra.org] " > > [mailto:obra@list.obra.org] >
> > > Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 7:51:47 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
> > > 
> > > That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
> > > I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and I'd
> > > love 
> > > to see them absolutely everywhere...
> > > 
> > > And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the 
> > > near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.
> > > 
> > > Russ R
> > > 
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > 
> > > On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow > > [mailto:dacrizzow@gmail.com] > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called out
> > > > to the 
> > > >other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed
> > > >responses. 
> > > >the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on the
> > > >street 
> > > >is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who comes
> > > >to 
> > > >this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense.
> > > >but 
> > > >given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's
> > > >also a 
> > > >good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel. educating
> > > >new/ 
> > > >younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by
> > > >example. i 
> > > >mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now
> > > >you see 
> > > >people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in
> > > >restuarants 
> > > >trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the
> > > >cyclists can 
> > > >be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted
> > > >drivers out 
> > > >there going unchecked. i know my biking b
> > > eh
> > > > avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i
> > > > can tell 
> > > >so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i
> > > >don't 
> > > >think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like preaching
> > > >to the 
> > > >choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the giro 
> > > >coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal 
> > > >programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow
> > > >signing 
> > > >off. 
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > OBRA mailing list
> > > > obra@list.obra.org [mailto:obra@list.obra.org]
> > > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > > [mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org]
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org [mailto:obra@list.obra.org]
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > [mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org]
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org [mailto:obra@list.obra.org]
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > > [mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org]
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org [mailto:obra@list.obra.org]
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > [mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org]

>

Steve Brown

When motorists are enraged at other motorists they way they are at bikes, then I will consider their opinion of value. Personally, I like to have other motorist always believe me to be safe, thoughtful and considerate if I am in my car or on the bike.
On Jun 8, 2011, at 10:23 AM, johnfforbes@comcast.net wrote:

> A fine does nothing to change the enraged motorists opinion
>
> Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
>
>
> -----Original message-----
> From: Gary Malcolm
> To: Randy Dreiling , Russ Rainforth , dacrizzow
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Wed, Jun 8, 2011 16:59:20 GMT+00:00
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
>
> Randy, Russ and Rizzow et al.,
>
> Tickets are handed to people who violate traffic ordinances. When they
> pay the fine, they and society are then even, it's all over guys. Let it
> go.
>
> (with extra TROLL)
>
> Why must supposedly free people be continuously bombarded by snoops,
> busy bodies, yentas, buttinskies, and otherwise pleasant people who just
> have to have everything just so. This is not Germany (hmmm, not going
> there). If you want to live by "their" rules - go ahead -
> congratulations! I did that for just as long as I wore a team jersey.
> Thank God that's over and now I can ride like a free cyclist with the
> yoke removed from my neck.
>
> I accept the consequences of ignoring car rules - the great car owner
> ruling class can freely run me down, fine me hundreds of dollars and
> generally hate me because of my fine muscled legs. Who cares? Not me.
> Will they run your 4 year old daughter down out of frustration because
> they couldn't catch me as I turned the wrong way down that one way
> street, swerving through traffic? Hey, take that up with the strangely
> angry, homicidal gas burners. NOT my issue. Oh, also I don't care about
> your insurance rates - as money always seems to be key core issue in
> this silliness - take it up with your legislators on the industry
> payrolls.
>
> Mostly your notes remind me of coworkers who insist that open toed
> sandals can only be worn at work between June and August. They also know
> the page number in the employee manual which they will remind you of on
> their precisely 15 minute long 10 o'clock break.
>
> One more thing, people sometimes pee and often on trees and other
> plants. In fact, peeing in a sparkling ceramic bowl of potable water
> could be considered the strange behavior... Anyway, this is not yet a
> sex crime + it's good fertilizer! Really it's OK, honest try it - it's
> quite relieving.
>
>
>
> God that felt good, it's been simmering for months.
>
> **Public tar and feathering to commence in 4,2,3,1...**
>
> Happy Cycling,
>
> Gary Malcolm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Randy Dreiling
> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 8:04 AM
> To: Russ Rainforth; dacrizzow
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
>
>
> I went down Eugene and had dinner at the Steelhead Brewery. Myself and
> my friends whom are all cyclist watch the 4 way stop there for 10
> minutes...NOT A SINGLE person stop. Not one NONE of the bike riders
> stopped at the stop signs!
> We were all very disappointed. None of the riders were in race kits,
> most were people with out helmets in street clothes, but still it is no
> wonder people get upset with bike riders at times.
>
> Randy Dreiling
> Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com Promoter - Mt Bike
> Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Russ Rainforth
> To: dacrizzow
> Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
> Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 7:51:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
> That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
> I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and
> I'd love
> to see them absolutely everywhere...
>
> And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the
>
> near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.
>
> Russ R
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow wrote:
>
> > that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called
> out to the
> >other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed
> responses.
> >the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on
> the street
> >is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who
> comes to
> >this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense.
> but
> >given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's
> also a
> >good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel.
> educating new/
> >younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by
> example. i
> >mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now
> you see
> >people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in
> restuarants
> >trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the
> cyclists can
> >be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted
> drivers out
> >there going unchecked. i know my biking b
> eh
> > avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i
> can tell
> >so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i
> don't
> >think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like
> preaching to the
> >choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the
> giro
> >coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal
> >programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow
> signing
> >off.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ********************************
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
> ********************************
>
> This message (including any attachments) is intended only for
> the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and
> may contain information that is non-public, proprietary,
> privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under
> applicable law or may constitute as attorney work product.
> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, notify us immediately by telephone at (541)343-5641 and
> (i) destroy this message if a facsimile or (ii) delete this message
> immediately if this is an electronic communication.
>
> Thank you.
> ********************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

johnfforbes@comcast.net

A fine does nothing to change the enraged motorists opinion

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----
From: Gary Malcolm
To: Randy Dreiling , Russ Rainforth
, dacrizzow
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wed, Jun 8, 2011 16:59:20 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists

Randy, Russ and Rizzow et al.,

Tickets are handed to people who violate traffic ordinances. When they
pay the fine, they and society are then even, it's all over guys. Let it
go.

(with extra TROLL)

Why must supposedly free people be continuously bombarded by snoops,
busy bodies, yentas, buttinskies, and otherwise pleasant people who just
have to have everything just so. This is not Germany (hmmm, not going
there). If you want to live by "their" rules - go ahead -
congratulations! I did that for just as long as I wore a team jersey.
Thank God that's over and now I can ride like a free cyclist with the
yoke removed from my neck.

I accept the consequences of ignoring car rules - the great car owner
ruling class can freely run me down, fine me hundreds of dollars and
generally hate me because of my fine muscled legs. Who cares? Not me.
Will they run your 4 year old daughter down out of frustration because
they couldn't catch me as I turned the wrong way down that one way
street, swerving through traffic? Hey, take that up with the strangely
angry, homicidal gas burners. NOT my issue. Oh, also I don't care about
your insurance rates - as money always seems to be key core issue in
this silliness - take it up with your legislators on the industry
payrolls.

Mostly your notes remind me of coworkers who insist that open toed
sandals can only be worn at work between June and August. They also know
the page number in the employee manual which they will remind you of on
their precisely 15 minute long 10 o'clock break.

One more thing, people sometimes pee and often on trees and other
plants. In fact, peeing in a sparkling ceramic bowl of potable water
could be considered the strange behavior... Anyway, this is not yet a
sex crime + it's good fertilizer! Really it's OK, honest try it - it's
quite relieving.

God that felt good, it's been simmering for months.

**Public tar and feathering to commence in 4,2,3,1...**

Happy Cycling,

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Randy Dreiling
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 8:04 AM
To: Russ Rainforth; dacrizzow
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists

I went down Eugene and had dinner at the Steelhead Brewery. Myself and
my friends whom are all cyclist watch the 4 way stop there for 10
minutes...NOT A SINGLE person stop. Not one NONE of the bike riders
stopped at the stop signs!
We were all very disappointed. None of the riders were in race kits,
most were people with out helmets in street clothes, but still it is no
wonder people get upset with bike riders at times.

Randy Dreiling
Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com Promoter - Mt Bike
Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Russ Rainforth
To: dacrizzow
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 7:51:47 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists

That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and
I'd love
to see them absolutely everywhere...

And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the

near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.

Russ R

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow wrote:

> that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called
out to the
>other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed
responses.
>the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on
the street
>is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who
comes to
>this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense.
but
>given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's
also a
>good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel.
educating new/
>younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by
example. i
>mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now
you see
>people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in
restuarants
>trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the
cyclists can
>be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted
drivers out
>there going unchecked. i know my biking b
eh
> avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i
can tell
>so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i
don't
>think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like
preaching to the
>choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the
giro
>coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal
>programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow
signing
>off.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

********************************
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
********************************

This message (including any attachments) is intended only for
the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and
may contain information that is non-public, proprietary,
privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under
applicable law or may constitute as attorney work product.
If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, notify us immediately by telephone at (541)343-5641
and
(i) destroy this message if a facsimile or (ii) delete this message
immediately if this is an electronic communication.

Thank you.
********************************

_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steve Brown

I can agree with Randy but if you watch cars at stop signs you observe the same thing. The only person who claims that bicycles not coming to a complete and total stop and not mentioning all vehicles is a liar. The counts I have done show less that 5% of all vehicles will come to a complete stop if there is not another vehicle impeding progress or a officer present.
On Jun 8, 2011, at 9:49 AM, Erik Long wrote:

> How many actually had collisions?
>
> > Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:03:58 -0700
> > From: raggy23@yahoo.com
> > To: rrroubaix@yahoo.com; dacrizzow@gmail.com
> > CC: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
> >
> >
> >
> > I went down Eugene and had dinner at the Steelhead Brewery. Myself and my
> > friends whom are all cyclist watch the 4 way stop there for 10 minutes...NOT A
> > SINGLE person stop. Not one NONE of the bike riders stopped at the stop signs!
> > We were all very disappointed. None of the riders were in race kits, most were
> > people with out helmets in street clothes, but still it is no wonder people get
> > upset with bike riders at times.
> >
> > Randy Dreiling
> > Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com
> > Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Russ Rainforth
> > To: dacrizzow
> > Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
> > Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 7:51:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
> >
> > That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
> > I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and I'd love
> > to see them absolutely everywhere...
> >
> > And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the
> > near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.
> >
> > Russ R
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow wrote:
> >
> > > that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called out to the
> > >other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed responses.
> > >the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on the street
> > >is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who comes to
> > >this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense. but
> > >given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's also a
> > >good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel. educating new/
> > >younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by example. i
> > >mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now you see
> > >people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in restuarants
> > >trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the cyclists can
> > >be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted drivers out
> > >there going unchecked. i know my biking b
> > eh
> > > avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i can tell
> > >so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i don't
> > >think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like preaching to the
> > >choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the giro
> > >coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal
> > >programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow signing
> > >off.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > > obra@list.obra.org
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

johnfforbes@comcast.net

What does that matter? The question should be; how many drivers were forced
into stops or emergency manuevers? How many members of the non bike public
form or reinforce the negative opinions about cyclists?

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----
From: Erik Long
To: Obra
Sent: Wed, Jun 8, 2011 16:49:22 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists

Gary Malcolm

Randy, Russ and Rizzow et al.,

Tickets are handed to people who violate traffic ordinances. When they
pay the fine, they and society are then even, it's all over guys. Let it
go.

(with extra TROLL)

Why must supposedly free people be continuously bombarded by snoops,
busy bodies, yentas, buttinskies, and otherwise pleasant people who just
have to have everything just so. This is not Germany (hmmm, not going
there). If you want to live by "their" rules - go ahead -
congratulations! I did that for just as long as I wore a team jersey.
Thank God that's over and now I can ride like a free cyclist with the
yoke removed from my neck.

I accept the consequences of ignoring car rules - the great car owner
ruling class can freely run me down, fine me hundreds of dollars and
generally hate me because of my fine muscled legs. Who cares? Not me.
Will they run your 4 year old daughter down out of frustration because
they couldn't catch me as I turned the wrong way down that one way
street, swerving through traffic? Hey, take that up with the strangely
angry, homicidal gas burners. NOT my issue. Oh, also I don't care about
your insurance rates - as money always seems to be key core issue in
this silliness - take it up with your legislators on the industry
payrolls.

Mostly your notes remind me of coworkers who insist that open toed
sandals can only be worn at work between June and August. They also know
the page number in the employee manual which they will remind you of on
their precisely 15 minute long 10 o'clock break.

One more thing, people sometimes pee and often on trees and other
plants. In fact, peeing in a sparkling ceramic bowl of potable water
could be considered the strange behavior... Anyway, this is not yet a
sex crime + it's good fertilizer! Really it's OK, honest try it - it's
quite relieving.

God that felt good, it's been simmering for months.

**Public tar and feathering to commence in 4,2,3,1...**

Happy Cycling,

Gary Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Randy Dreiling
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 8:04 AM
To: Russ Rainforth; dacrizzow
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists

I went down Eugene and had dinner at the Steelhead Brewery. Myself and
my friends whom are all cyclist watch the 4 way stop there for 10
minutes...NOT A SINGLE person stop. Not one NONE of the bike riders
stopped at the stop signs!
We were all very disappointed. None of the riders were in race kits,
most were people with out helmets in street clothes, but still it is no
wonder people get upset with bike riders at times.

Randy Dreiling
Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com Promoter - Mt Bike
Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Russ Rainforth
To: dacrizzow
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 7:51:47 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists

That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and
I'd love
to see them absolutely everywhere...

And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the

near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.

Russ R

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow wrote:

> that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called
out to the
>other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed
responses.
>the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on
the street
>is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who
comes to
>this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense.
but
>given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's
also a
>good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel.
educating new/
>younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by
example. i
>mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now
you see
>people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in
restuarants
>trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the
cyclists can
>be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted
drivers out
>there going unchecked. i know my biking b
eh
> avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i
can tell
>so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i
don't
>think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like
preaching to the
>choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the
giro
>coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal
>programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow
signing
>off.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

********************************
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE
********************************

This message (including any attachments) is intended only for
the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and
may contain information that is non-public, proprietary,
privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under
applicable law or may constitute as attorney work product.
If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, notify us immediately by telephone at (541)343-5641 and
(i) destroy this message if a facsimile or (ii) delete this message
immediately if this is an electronic communication.

Thank you.
********************************

Erik Long

How many actually had collisions?

> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:03:58 -0700
> From: raggy23@yahoo.com
> To: rrroubaix@yahoo.com; dacrizzow@gmail.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
>
>
> I went down Eugene and had dinner at the Steelhead Brewery. Myself and my
> friends whom are all cyclist watch the 4 way stop there for 10 minutes...NOT A
> SINGLE person stop. Not one NONE of the bike riders stopped at the stop signs!
> We were all very disappointed. None of the riders were in race kits, most were
> people with out helmets in street clothes, but still it is no wonder people get
> upset with bike riders at times.
>
> Randy Dreiling
> Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com
> Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Russ Rainforth
> To: dacrizzow
> Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
> Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 7:51:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists
>
> That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
> I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and I'd love
> to see them absolutely everywhere...
>
> And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the
> near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.
>
> Russ R
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow wrote:
>
> > that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called out to the
> >other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed responses.
> >the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on the street
> >is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who comes to
> >this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense. but
> >given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's also a
> >good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel. educating new/
> >younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by example. i
> >mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now you see
> >people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in restuarants
> >trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the cyclists can
> >be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted drivers out
> >there going unchecked. i know my biking b
> eh
> > avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i can tell
> >so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i don't
> >think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like preaching to the
> >choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the giro
> >coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal
> >programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow signing
> >off.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Randy Dreiling

I went down Eugene and had dinner at the Steelhead Brewery. Myself and my
friends whom are all cyclist watch the 4 way stop there for 10 minutes...NOT A
SINGLE person stop. Not one NONE of the bike riders stopped at the stop signs!
We were all very disappointed. None of the riders were in race kits, most were
people with out helmets in street clothes, but still it is no wonder people get
upset with bike riders at times.

Randy Dreiling
Owner - Oregon Adventures www.oregon-adventures.com
Promoter - Mt Bike Oregon www.mtbikeoregon.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Russ Rainforth
To: dacrizzow
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 7:51:47 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] An open letter to my fellow cyclists

That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and I'd love
to see them absolutely everywhere...

And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the
near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.

Russ R

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow wrote:

> that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called out to the
>other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed responses.
>the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on the street
>is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who comes to
>this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense. but
>given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's also a
>good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel. educating new/
>younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by example. i
>mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now you see
>people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in restuarants
>trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the cyclists can
>be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted drivers out
>there going unchecked. i know my biking b
eh
> avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i can tell
>so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i don't
>think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like preaching to the
>choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the giro
>coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal
>programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow signing
>off.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Russ Rainforth

That may be the best post you've sent out, 'Crizz...!
I completely agree- those Road ID spots from Mionske were fabulous and I'd love to see them absolutely everywhere...

And that blogpost/letter was spot-on! I too get pretty frustrated by the near-ubiquitous running of lights & stop signs.

Russ R

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 7, 2011, at 5:14 PM, dacrizzow wrote:

> that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called out to the other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed responses. the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on the street is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who comes to this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense. but given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's also a good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel. educating new/ younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by example. i mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now you see people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in restuarants trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the cyclists can be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted drivers out there going unchecked. i know my biking beh
> avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i can tell so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i don't think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like preaching to the choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the giro coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow signing off.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

dacrizzow

that was an honest, well written article. of course when she called out to the other bikers that the light was red she was greeted with some mixed responses. the people doing this stuff aren't going to change because someone on the street is trying to "educate" them. for the most part i think everyone who comes to this message board probably rides within the law and with common sense. but given that most of us are probably riding 150-200 miles a week there's also a good chance we step out of line sometimes. no one is an angel. educating new/ younger riders is one thing but i think the best we can do is lead by example. i mean at one time it was considered somewhat lame to recycle, right? now you see people of all types standing around all the different trashcans in restuarants trying to figure out what goes where. the in fighting with all the cyclists can be a little trivial (IMHO) when there's drunk, hostile, distracted drivers out there going unchecked. i know my biking beh
avior has changed in my almost two decades of cycling. and from what i can tell so has the general cycling publics. calling out guys at stop lights (i don't think) is going to work and telling it all to this site is like preaching to the choir. i did however appreciate the PSA's w/ bob moinske during the giro coverage. stuff like that should be ALL OVER the tv. and during normal programing. some of it was really good stuff. the infamous dacrizzow signing off.

B Larrain

Thought this might we worth posting. Hopefully most of us already are aware and practicing but it's a reminder of how many drivers see us regardless.

http://spacingtoronto.ca/2011/06/03/guest-post-an-open-letter-from-one-toronto-cyclist-to-another/