eric939@redshift.com

Well, maybe not much past San Francisco (Salinas, 85 miles south of SF),
but when you get near Los Angeles you enter a totally different world,
anyway.

== Eric

> This fictional place called
> fairy-bike-land-with-bike-rules-which-people-follow-California doesn't
> exist
> (past San Francisco). Plus, you don't need a bike lane when you just ride
> a
> single-speed with no helmet & headphones in your ears like the local
> LA-population.
>
> Cycling stop light conversation in LA.
>
> "What is that on your head?"
>
> "Its a helmet. It protects my skull and it's contents in the event my
> head
> impacts a solid object with an injurious level of force."
>
> "What?"
>
> "Never mind. The light's green."
>
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 8:33 PM, wrote:
>
>>
>> The League of American Bicyclists Effective Cycling course teaches that
>> a
>> bicyclist move out of a bike lane at a controled intersection, because
>> at
>> that point the bike lane is effectively a right turn lane.
>>
>> In California, the lines delineating bike lanes are supposed to be
>> dashed
>> when approaching an intersection.
>>
>> Also in California, though, there are communities which try to outthink
>> CalTrans standards, and create their own designs. That gets weird --
>> and
>> sometimes dangerous!
>>
>> For example, in Marina, California, there is a two-way off-street
>> multi-use path near a proposed high school. This is totally contrary to
>> what CalTrans distates. The designer didn't seek any input from any
>> cyclists until the project was already out to bid, and therefore too
>> late.
>> Why bother at that point?
>>
>> == Eric
>>
>>
>> > This is a real problem with the Oregon law. When I was a resident of
>> > California, to pass the drivers test I learned that motor vehicles
>> making
>> > the right hand turn were to take the lane when turning right. If a
>> car
>> is
>> > ahead of you and they can safely pass they simply take the lane. I
>> know
>> > this not what we do in Oregon and is a real debate amongst traffic
>> > planners, but it did make sense to me at the time. If I believe that
>> > bikes need to be considered traffic, then sometimes I need to wait my
>> > turn, like all others.
>> >
>> > Steve Brown
>> > On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Mike Murray wrote:
>> >
>> >> This is what I do too. I wish that the cars that know they are going
>> to
>> >> be turning right would just not pass unless they know that they will
>> be
>> >> able to get ahead of me enough to make the turn. I know that they
>> would
>> >> not pass a car and then sit there in the left lane waiting for a car
>> to
>> >> go by them on the right. I can see how it would be more challenging
>> if
>> >> there was an endless stream of bikes but frankly how often is that
>> the
>> >> case.
>> >> ------Original Message------
>> >> From: Mark Armstrong
>> >> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> >> To: remailer, OBRA
>> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
>> >> Sent: Jun 8, 2011 17:00
>> >>
>> >> Best commuting advice given to me early in my commuting life by a
>> Harley
>> >> rider, "Assume you are invisible and you've got a chance to survive."
>> >> Seems to have worked as I've been hit by a car only once and that was
>> a
>> >> left hook. This approach means that when I see a right turn signal
>> in
>> >> front of me and the car then stops, I stop too and put both feet on
>> the
>> >> ground so that there isn't any confusion. Sure, they probably see me
>> >> but I'm not taking the chance, getting hit by cars hurts.
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OBRA mailing list
>> >> obra@list.obra.org
>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OBRA mailing list
>> >> obra@list.obra.org
>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>

Josh Cady

This fictional place called
fairy-bike-land-with-bike-rules-which-people-follow-California doesn't exist
(past San Francisco). Plus, you don't need a bike lane when you just ride a
single-speed with no helmet & headphones in your ears like the local
LA-population.

Cycling stop light conversation in LA.

"What is that on your head?"

"Its a helmet. It protects my skull and it's contents in the event my head
impacts a solid object with an injurious level of force."

"What?"

"Never mind. The light's green."

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 8:33 PM, wrote:

>
> The League of American Bicyclists Effective Cycling course teaches that a
> bicyclist move out of a bike lane at a controled intersection, because at
> that point the bike lane is effectively a right turn lane.
>
> In California, the lines delineating bike lanes are supposed to be dashed
> when approaching an intersection.
>
> Also in California, though, there are communities which try to outthink
> CalTrans standards, and create their own designs. That gets weird -- and
> sometimes dangerous!
>
> For example, in Marina, California, there is a two-way off-street
> multi-use path near a proposed high school. This is totally contrary to
> what CalTrans distates. The designer didn't seek any input from any
> cyclists until the project was already out to bid, and therefore too late.
> Why bother at that point?
>
> == Eric
>
>
> > This is a real problem with the Oregon law. When I was a resident of
> > California, to pass the drivers test I learned that motor vehicles making
> > the right hand turn were to take the lane when turning right. If a car
> is
> > ahead of you and they can safely pass they simply take the lane. I know
> > this not what we do in Oregon and is a real debate amongst traffic
> > planners, but it did make sense to me at the time. If I believe that
> > bikes need to be considered traffic, then sometimes I need to wait my
> > turn, like all others.
> >
> > Steve Brown
> > On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Mike Murray wrote:
> >
> >> This is what I do too. I wish that the cars that know they are going to
> >> be turning right would just not pass unless they know that they will be
> >> able to get ahead of me enough to make the turn. I know that they would
> >> not pass a car and then sit there in the left lane waiting for a car to
> >> go by them on the right. I can see how it would be more challenging if
> >> there was an endless stream of bikes but frankly how often is that the
> >> case.
> >> ------Original Message------
> >> From: Mark Armstrong
> >> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> >> To: remailer, OBRA
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
> >> Sent: Jun 8, 2011 17:00
> >>
> >> Best commuting advice given to me early in my commuting life by a Harley
> >> rider, "Assume you are invisible and you've got a chance to survive."
> >> Seems to have worked as I've been hit by a car only once and that was a
> >> left hook. This approach means that when I see a right turn signal in
> >> front of me and the car then stops, I stop too and put both feet on the
> >> ground so that there isn't any confusion. Sure, they probably see me
> >> but I'm not taking the chance, getting hit by cars hurts.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Tom Orth

Please tell your friend we aren't all jerks, and thank her for being thoughtful.

Sent from my iPhone, may contain inexcusable typos

On Jun 8, 2011, at 10:54 AM, Maggie wrote:

> A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the Vancouver bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the bike lane as very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned right. The cyclist got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad because she perceived herself as trying to be nice (and not smash into a cyclist with a right hand turn across a busy bike lane). I had yet another coworker complain of the same thing: a cyclist who got mad when she slowed to try to be safe.
> Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do? Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to turn across the bike lane.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

eric939@redshift.com

The League of American Bicyclists Effective Cycling course teaches that a
bicyclist move out of a bike lane at a controled intersection, because at
that point the bike lane is effectively a right turn lane.

In California, the lines delineating bike lanes are supposed to be dashed
when approaching an intersection.

Also in California, though, there are communities which try to outthink
CalTrans standards, and create their own designs. That gets weird -- and
sometimes dangerous!

For example, in Marina, California, there is a two-way off-street
multi-use path near a proposed high school. This is totally contrary to
what CalTrans distates. The designer didn't seek any input from any
cyclists until the project was already out to bid, and therefore too late.
Why bother at that point?

== Eric

> This is a real problem with the Oregon law. When I was a resident of
> California, to pass the drivers test I learned that motor vehicles making
> the right hand turn were to take the lane when turning right. If a car is
> ahead of you and they can safely pass they simply take the lane. I know
> this not what we do in Oregon and is a real debate amongst traffic
> planners, but it did make sense to me at the time. If I believe that
> bikes need to be considered traffic, then sometimes I need to wait my
> turn, like all others.
>
> Steve Brown
> On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Mike Murray wrote:
>
>> This is what I do too. I wish that the cars that know they are going to
>> be turning right would just not pass unless they know that they will be
>> able to get ahead of me enough to make the turn. I know that they would
>> not pass a car and then sit there in the left lane waiting for a car to
>> go by them on the right. I can see how it would be more challenging if
>> there was an endless stream of bikes but frankly how often is that the
>> case.
>> ------Original Message------
>> From: Mark Armstrong
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> To: remailer, OBRA
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
>> Sent: Jun 8, 2011 17:00
>>
>> Best commuting advice given to me early in my commuting life by a Harley
>> rider, "Assume you are invisible and you've got a chance to survive."
>> Seems to have worked as I've been hit by a car only once and that was a
>> left hook. This approach means that when I see a right turn signal in
>> front of me and the car then stops, I stop too and put both feet on the
>> ground so that there isn't any confusion. Sure, they probably see me
>> but I'm not taking the chance, getting hit by cars hurts.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Steve Brown

This is a real problem with the Oregon law. When I was a resident of California, to pass the drivers test I learned that motor vehicles making the right hand turn were to take the lane when turning right. If a car is ahead of you and they can safely pass they simply take the lane. I know this not what we do in Oregon and is a real debate amongst traffic planners, but it did make sense to me at the time. If I believe that bikes need to be considered traffic, then sometimes I need to wait my turn, like all others.

Steve Brown
On Jun 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

> This is what I do too. I wish that the cars that know they are going to be turning right would just not pass unless they know that they will be able to get ahead of me enough to make the turn. I know that they would not pass a car and then sit there in the left lane waiting for a car to go by them on the right. I can see how it would be more challenging if there was an endless stream of bikes but frankly how often is that the case.
> ------Original Message------
> From: Mark Armstrong
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> To: remailer, OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
> Sent: Jun 8, 2011 17:00
>
> Best commuting advice given to me early in my commuting life by a Harley rider, "Assume you are invisible and you've got a chance to survive." Seems to have worked as I've been hit by a car only once and that was a left hook. This approach means that when I see a right turn signal in front of me and the car then stops, I stop too and put both feet on the ground so that there isn't any confusion. Sure, they probably see me but I'm not taking the chance, getting hit by cars hurts.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

This is what I do too. I wish that the cars that know they are going to be turning right would just not pass unless they know that they will be able to get ahead of me enough to make the turn. I know that they would not pass a car and then sit there in the left lane waiting for a car to go by them on the right. I can see how it would be more challenging if there was an endless stream of bikes but frankly how often is that the case.
------Original Message------
From: Mark Armstrong
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
To: remailer, OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
Sent: Jun 8, 2011 17:00

Best commuting advice given to me early in my commuting life by a Harley rider, "Assume you are invisible and you've got a chance to survive." Seems to have worked as I've been hit by a car only once and that was a left hook. This approach means that when I see a right turn signal in front of me and the car then stops, I stop too and put both feet on the ground so that there isn't any confusion. Sure, they probably see me but I'm not taking the chance, getting hit by cars hurts.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray - Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Rick Johnson

Josh's comment reminded me of my time commuting in LA (by
motorcycle). Besides considering myself invisible (a old classic) my
rides always begun by reminding myself this:



"It can happen to me. It can happen today."



Rick

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

I live in LA now and commute to work via bike
everyday.  You have no idea...

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:51 PM,
Maximillian Kirchoff <max@maxisnow.com>
wrote:

I (cautiously) ride on the right and
(cautiously) expect cars to wait until I pass to make their
right turn since it's the law in Oregon. 

When I see out of state plates, long semi trucks, or
someone who doesn't appear to care that I'm behind and to
the right of them I slow to prepare to stop in case they
hook.

I don't have any problem or big argument about the issue
of cyclists getting behind cars with blinkers on, or going
around the left of them, I just think it's
really inconsistent and I can see how a driver could get
confused. 

As I was driving a few weeks ago I put on my blinker on N
Vancouver to take a right on a neighborhood street, I braked
somewhat abruptly to allow the bikes in the lane to pass me.
Unbeknownst to me, a cyclist had quickly swerved into my
lane behind me when seeing my blinker and almost ran into
the back of me. 

Some folks choose to give up the right of way in those
situations, and I understand that, I just think it's
creating a really confusing situation for some drivers.
Especially the MANY drivers from California where the law is
totally different.

______________{ :)

Max Kirchoff

(971) 506-5205

http://www.robopony.com

http://www.bionicdonkey.com

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:38 PM,
eric aldinger <ewascent@gmail.com>
wrote:

I have been the victim of a car not yielding to me
as the made a right across my bike lane. I
appreciate the kindness when people both signal and
wait.

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at
3:23 PM, Saul Lopez <salopez@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Thanks Mark and
Maggie.  Appreciate the
clarification as my wife asked me
about this just this weekend.  While
heading home at an intersection
where we see this happen a lot, she
stopped before making a right turn
to allow cyclist to go (what I've
instructed her to do) and said
cyclist bitched her out.  She said
she thought it was someone in a Fred
Meyer jersey but did not get all
details...  Coulda just been anyone,
however, this seems to happen
often.  When a car waits for me, I
usually smile, wave and say THANK
YOU for paying attention and not
hooking me, which I have also been a
victim of.



Saul



--- On Wed, 6/8/11, Mark J.
Ginsberg <markjginsberg@yahoo.com>
wrote:

From: Mark J. Ginsberg <markjginsberg@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe
right hand turn over bike lane

To: "Maggie" <redmagoo@msn.com>,
obra@list.obra.org

Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011,
11:27 AM

Maggie,



I have litigated right hook
crashes on NE Broadway and
Vancouver quite a bit, sadly,
it keeps me busy.



From a cyclists view, the car
driver passes, signals (or
while signalling) then slows
down.

For a cyclist, it is better to
have the driver sit behind the
cyclist while heading down
that road, and turn behind the
cyclist, but this doesn't
always work, especially
somewhere like NE Vancouver
with heavy bicycle traffic.



For a purely legal view, the
bike lane is a lane of
traffic, so imaging you are in
the middle lane and to your
right in a travel lane full of
honda scooters, and little
smart cars. You want to turn
right from your middle lane,
but there are endless smart
cars coming from behind you in
that right lane. I hope we
would all agree that the right
turning driver needs to wait
for an opening to turn across
the lane of honda scooters and
smarmy Portland smart car
users. Now pretend the smart
cars are BTA members and the
honda scooter are fixed gear
hipsters. Your movement
analysis and legal analysis
should be the same.



I can't speak to, or for, the
cyclist who got mad, but if a
driver is signalling, that's
good. if I am alone and
someone is trying to turn
right, I may give up my legal
right, if it keeps me safer,
but with a ton of cyclists,
that can be a hard right turn.



Maggie, feel free to send this
to your friend. I think your
friend was correct to signal
and wait, and really if our
biggest problem in Portland is
having too much bicycle
traffic and car drivers who
are asking the
best/nicest/safest way to get
around those cyclist, well I'd
say we are doing pretty good.



Mark

 

Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC

Attorneys At Law

1216 SE Belmont St.

Portland, OR 97214

(503)
542-3000

Fax (503)
233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com


www.bikesafetylaw.com

---

From:
Maggie <redmagoo@msn.com>

To:
obra@list.obra.org

Sent:
Wed, June 8, 2011
10:54:04 AM

Subject:
[OBRA Chat] safe right
hand turn over bike lane

A coworker today asked
me how she should make a
right turn over the
Vancouver bike lane. 
She commutes that way
(by car) and she
describes the bike lane
as very busy.  Trying to
be accommodating, she
slowed today (with her
signal on) to allow a
bike to pass before she
turned right.  The
cyclist got very mad at
her, and it made her
feel bad because she
perceived herself as
trying to be nice (and
not smash into a cyclist
with a right hand turn
across a busy bike
lane).  I had yet
another coworker
complain of the same
thing: a cyclist who got
mad when she slowed to
try to be safe. 

  Anyone want to comment
on the law versus the
expected thing to do? 
Remember this is a
"highway" as she calls
it and so it is
difficult to turn across
the bike lane. 

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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--

Eric Aldinger



_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

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Josh Cady

I live in LA now and commute to work via bike everyday. You have no idea...

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Maximillian Kirchoff wrote:

> I (cautiously) ride on the right and (cautiously) expect cars to wait until
> I pass to make their right turn since it's the law in Oregon.
>
> When I see out of state plates, long semi trucks, or someone who doesn't
> appear to care that I'm behind and to the right of them I slow to prepare to
> stop in case they hook.
>
> I don't have any problem or big argument about the issue of cyclists
> getting behind cars with blinkers on, or going around the left of them, I
> just think it's really inconsistent and I can see how a driver could get
> confused.
>
> As I was driving a few weeks ago I put on my blinker on N Vancouver to take
> a right on a neighborhood street, I braked somewhat abruptly to allow the
> bikes in the lane to pass me. Unbeknownst to me, a cyclist had quickly
> swerved into my lane behind me when seeing my blinker and almost ran into
> the back of me.
>
> Some folks choose to give up the right of way in those situations, and I
> understand that, I just think it's creating a really confusing situation for
> some drivers. Especially the MANY drivers from California where the law is
> totally different.
>
>
> ______________{ :)
> Max Kirchoff
> (971) 506-5205
> http://www.robopony.com
> http://www.bionicdonkey.com
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:38 PM, eric aldinger wrote:
>
>> I have been the victim of a car not yielding to me as the made a right
>> across my bike lane. I appreciate the kindness when people both signal and
>> wait.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Saul Lopez wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks Mark and Maggie. Appreciate the clarification as my wife asked
>>> me about this just this weekend. While heading home at an intersection
>>> where we see this happen a lot, she stopped before making a right turn to
>>> allow cyclist to go (what I've instructed her to do) and said cyclist
>>> bitched her out. She said she thought it was someone in a Fred Meyer jersey
>>> but did not get all details... Coulda just been anyone, however, this seems
>>> to happen often. When a car waits for me, I usually smile, wave and say
>>> THANK YOU for paying attention and not hooking me, which I have also been a
>>> victim of.
>>>
>>> Saul
>>>
>>> --- On *Wed, 6/8/11, Mark J. Ginsberg * wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Mark J. Ginsberg
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
>>> To: "Maggie" , obra@list.obra.org
>>> Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 11:27 AM
>>>
>>> Maggie,
>>>
>>> I have litigated right hook crashes on NE Broadway and Vancouver quite a
>>> bit, sadly, it keeps me busy.
>>>
>>> From a cyclists view, the car driver passes, signals (or while
>>> signalling) then slows down.
>>> For a cyclist, it is better to have the driver sit behind the cyclist
>>> while heading down that road, and turn behind the cyclist, but this doesn't
>>> always work, especially somewhere like NE Vancouver with heavy bicycle
>>> traffic.
>>>
>>> For a purely legal view, the bike lane is a lane of traffic, so imaging
>>> you are in the middle lane and to your right in a travel lane full of honda
>>> scooters, and little smart cars. You want to turn right from your middle
>>> lane, but there are endless smart cars coming from behind you in that right
>>> lane. I hope we would all agree that the right turning driver needs to wait
>>> for an opening to turn across the lane of honda scooters and smarmy Portland
>>> smart car users. Now pretend the smart cars are BTA members and the honda
>>> scooter are fixed gear hipsters. Your movement analysis and legal analysis
>>> should be the same.
>>>
>>> I can't speak to, or for, the cyclist who got mad, but if a driver is
>>> signalling, that's good. if I am alone and someone is trying to turn right,
>>> I may give up my legal right, if it keeps me safer, but with a ton of
>>> cyclists, that can be a hard right turn.
>>>
>>> Maggie, feel free to send this to your friend. I think your friend was
>>> correct to signal and wait, and really if our biggest problem in Portland is
>>> having too much bicycle traffic and car drivers who are asking the
>>> best/nicest/safest way to get around those cyclist, well I'd say we are
>>> doing pretty good.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark J. Ginsberg
>>> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
>>> Attorneys At Law
>>> 1216 SE Belmont St.
>>> Portland, OR 97214
>>> (503) 542-3000
>>> Fax (503) 233-6874
>>> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
>>> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Maggie
>>> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
>>> *Sent:* Wed, June 8, 2011 10:54:04 AM
>>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
>>>
>>> A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the
>>> Vancouver bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the
>>> bike lane as very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with
>>> her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned right. The cyclist
>>> got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad because she perceived herself
>>> as trying to be nice (and not smash into a cyclist with a right hand turn
>>> across a busy bike lane). I had yet another coworker complain of the same
>>> thing: a cyclist who got mad when she slowed to try to be safe.
>>> Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do?
>>> Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to turn
>>> across the bike lane.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Eric Aldinger
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Mark Armstrong

Best commuting advice given to me early in my commuting life by a Harley rider, "Assume you are invisible and you've got a chance to survive." Seems to have worked as I've been hit by a car only once and that was a left hook. This approach means that when I see a right turn signal in front of me and the car then stops, I stop too and put both feet on the ground so that there isn't any confusion. Sure, they probably see me but I'm not taking the chance, getting hit by cars hurts.

Maximillian Kirchoff

I (cautiously) ride on the right and (cautiously) expect cars to wait until
I pass to make their right turn since it's the law in Oregon.

When I see out of state plates, long semi trucks, or someone who doesn't
appear to care that I'm behind and to the right of them I slow to prepare to
stop in case they hook.

I don't have any problem or big argument about the issue of cyclists getting
behind cars with blinkers on, or going around the left of them, I just think
it's really inconsistent and I can see how a driver could get confused.

As I was driving a few weeks ago I put on my blinker on N Vancouver to take
a right on a neighborhood street, I braked somewhat abruptly to allow the
bikes in the lane to pass me. Unbeknownst to me, a cyclist had quickly
swerved into my lane behind me when seeing my blinker and almost ran into
the back of me.

Some folks choose to give up the right of way in those situations, and I
understand that, I just think it's creating a really confusing situation for
some drivers. Especially the MANY drivers from California where the law is
totally different.

______________{ :)
Max Kirchoff
(971) 506-5205
http://www.robopony.com
http://www.bionicdonkey.com

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 4:38 PM, eric aldinger wrote:

> I have been the victim of a car not yielding to me as the made a right
> across my bike lane. I appreciate the kindness when people both signal and
> wait.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Saul Lopez wrote:
>
>> Thanks Mark and Maggie. Appreciate the clarification as my wife asked
>> me about this just this weekend. While heading home at an intersection
>> where we see this happen a lot, she stopped before making a right turn to
>> allow cyclist to go (what I've instructed her to do) and said cyclist
>> bitched her out. She said she thought it was someone in a Fred Meyer jersey
>> but did not get all details... Coulda just been anyone, however, this seems
>> to happen often. When a car waits for me, I usually smile, wave and say
>> THANK YOU for paying attention and not hooking me, which I have also been a
>> victim of.
>>
>> Saul
>>
>> --- On *Wed, 6/8/11, Mark J. Ginsberg * wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Mark J. Ginsberg
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
>> To: "Maggie" , obra@list.obra.org
>> Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 11:27 AM
>>
>> Maggie,
>>
>> I have litigated right hook crashes on NE Broadway and Vancouver quite a
>> bit, sadly, it keeps me busy.
>>
>> From a cyclists view, the car driver passes, signals (or while signalling)
>> then slows down.
>> For a cyclist, it is better to have the driver sit behind the cyclist
>> while heading down that road, and turn behind the cyclist, but this doesn't
>> always work, especially somewhere like NE Vancouver with heavy bicycle
>> traffic.
>>
>> For a purely legal view, the bike lane is a lane of traffic, so imaging
>> you are in the middle lane and to your right in a travel lane full of honda
>> scooters, and little smart cars. You want to turn right from your middle
>> lane, but there are endless smart cars coming from behind you in that right
>> lane. I hope we would all agree that the right turning driver needs to wait
>> for an opening to turn across the lane of honda scooters and smarmy Portland
>> smart car users. Now pretend the smart cars are BTA members and the honda
>> scooter are fixed gear hipsters. Your movement analysis and legal analysis
>> should be the same.
>>
>> I can't speak to, or for, the cyclist who got mad, but if a driver is
>> signalling, that's good. if I am alone and someone is trying to turn right,
>> I may give up my legal right, if it keeps me safer, but with a ton of
>> cyclists, that can be a hard right turn.
>>
>> Maggie, feel free to send this to your friend. I think your friend was
>> correct to signal and wait, and really if our biggest problem in Portland is
>> having too much bicycle traffic and car drivers who are asking the
>> best/nicest/safest way to get around those cyclist, well I'd say we are
>> doing pretty good.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark J. Ginsberg
>> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
>> Attorneys At Law
>> 1216 SE Belmont St.
>> Portland, OR 97214
>> (503) 542-3000
>> Fax (503) 233-6874
>> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
>> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Maggie
>> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
>> *Sent:* Wed, June 8, 2011 10:54:04 AM
>> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
>>
>> A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the
>> Vancouver bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the
>> bike lane as very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with
>> her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned right. The cyclist
>> got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad because she perceived herself
>> as trying to be nice (and not smash into a cyclist with a right hand turn
>> across a busy bike lane). I had yet another coworker complain of the same
>> thing: a cyclist who got mad when she slowed to try to be safe.
>> Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do?
>> Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to turn
>> across the bike lane.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Eric Aldinger
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

eric aldinger

I have been the victim of a car not yielding to me as the made a right
across my bike lane. I appreciate the kindness when people both signal and
wait.

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 3:23 PM, Saul Lopez wrote:

> Thanks Mark and Maggie. Appreciate the clarification as my wife asked
> me about this just this weekend. While heading home at an intersection
> where we see this happen a lot, she stopped before making a right turn to
> allow cyclist to go (what I've instructed her to do) and said cyclist
> bitched her out. She said she thought it was someone in a Fred Meyer jersey
> but did not get all details... Coulda just been anyone, however, this seems
> to happen often. When a car waits for me, I usually smile, wave and say
> THANK YOU for paying attention and not hooking me, which I have also been a
> victim of.
>
> Saul
>
> --- On *Wed, 6/8/11, Mark J. Ginsberg * wrote:
>
>
> From: Mark J. Ginsberg
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
> To: "Maggie" , obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 11:27 AM
>
> Maggie,
>
> I have litigated right hook crashes on NE Broadway and Vancouver quite a
> bit, sadly, it keeps me busy.
>
> From a cyclists view, the car driver passes, signals (or while signalling)
> then slows down.
> For a cyclist, it is better to have the driver sit behind the cyclist while
> heading down that road, and turn behind the cyclist, but this doesn't always
> work, especially somewhere like NE Vancouver with heavy bicycle traffic.
>
> For a purely legal view, the bike lane is a lane of traffic, so imaging you
> are in the middle lane and to your right in a travel lane full of honda
> scooters, and little smart cars. You want to turn right from your middle
> lane, but there are endless smart cars coming from behind you in that right
> lane. I hope we would all agree that the right turning driver needs to wait
> for an opening to turn across the lane of honda scooters and smarmy Portland
> smart car users. Now pretend the smart cars are BTA members and the honda
> scooter are fixed gear hipsters. Your movement analysis and legal analysis
> should be the same.
>
> I can't speak to, or for, the cyclist who got mad, but if a driver is
> signalling, that's good. if I am alone and someone is trying to turn right,
> I may give up my legal right, if it keeps me safer, but with a ton of
> cyclists, that can be a hard right turn.
>
> Maggie, feel free to send this to your friend. I think your friend was
> correct to signal and wait, and really if our biggest problem in Portland is
> having too much bicycle traffic and car drivers who are asking the
> best/nicest/safest way to get around those cyclist, well I'd say we are
> doing pretty good.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> www.bikesafetylaw.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Maggie
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Wed, June 8, 2011 10:54:04 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
>
> A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the
> Vancouver bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the
> bike lane as very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with
> her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned right. The cyclist
> got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad because she perceived herself
> as trying to be nice (and not smash into a cyclist with a right hand turn
> across a busy bike lane). I had yet another coworker complain of the same
> thing: a cyclist who got mad when she slowed to try to be safe.
> Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do?
> Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to turn
> across the bike lane.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
Eric Aldinger

Saul Lopez

Thanks Mark and Maggie.  Appreciate the clarification as my wife asked me about this just this weekend.  While heading home at an intersection where we see this happen a lot, she stopped before making a right turn to allow cyclist to go (what I've instructed her to do) and said cyclist bitched her out.  She said she thought it was someone in a Fred Meyer jersey but did not get all details...  Coulda just been anyone, however, this seems to happen often.  When a car waits for me, I usually smile, wave and say THANK YOU for paying attention and not hooking me, which I have also been a victim of.

Saul

--- On Wed, 6/8/11, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

From: Mark J. Ginsberg
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane
To: "Maggie" , obra@list.obra.org
Date: Wednesday, June 8, 2011, 11:27 AM

Maggie,

I have litigated right hook crashes on NE Broadway and Vancouver quite a bit, sadly, it keeps me busy.

>From a cyclists view, the car driver passes, signals (or while signalling) then slows down.
For a cyclist, it is better to have the driver sit behind the cyclist while heading down that road, and turn behind the cyclist, but this doesn't always work, especially somewhere like NE Vancouver with heavy bicycle traffic.

For a purely legal view, the bike lane is a lane of traffic, so imaging you are in the middle lane and to your right in a travel lane full of honda scooters, and little smart cars. You want to turn right from your middle lane, but there are endless smart cars coming from behind you in that right lane. I hope we would all agree that the right turning
driver needs to wait for an opening to turn across the lane of honda scooters and smarmy Portland smart car users. Now pretend the smart cars are BTA members and the honda scooter are fixed gear hipsters. Your movement analysis and legal analysis should be the same.

I can't speak to, or for, the cyclist who got mad, but if a driver is signalling, that's good. if I am alone and someone is trying to turn right, I may give up my legal right, if it keeps me safer, but with a ton of cyclists, that can be a hard right turn.

Maggie, feel free to send this to your friend. I think your friend was correct to signal and wait, and really if our biggest problem in Portland is having too much bicycle traffic and car drivers who are asking the best/nicest/safest way to get around those cyclist, well I'd say we are doing pretty good.

Mark

 Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE
Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

From: Maggie
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 10:54:04 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane

A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the Vancouver bike lane.  She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the bike lane as very busy.  Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned right.  The cyclist got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad because she perceived herself as trying to be nice (and not smash into a cyclist with a right hand turn across a busy bike lane).  I had yet another coworker complain of the same thing: a cyclist who got mad when she slowed to try to be safe. 
  Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do?  Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to turn across the bike lane. 
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Cary

I guess it would depend if your friend postured as though she was going to turn without yeilding the right of way &/or blocked part of the bike lane. I get upset when I feel as though I have to slam on my brakes in order to stay alive when a car passes me just before the road they want to turn right on, takes up half the bike lane, then hesitates. I slow down considerable, which makes cars think they can go now and end up cutting me off.

Perhaps mention to her to make sure she keeps her vehicle straight, out of the bike lane entirerly, and doesn't make it appear to cyclists that she may actual turn, causing a smart cyclist to react, slow down or stop.

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 10:54:04 -0700, Maggie wrote:
> A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the Vancouver bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the bike lane as very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned right. The cyclist got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad because she perceived herself as trying to be nice (and not smash into a cyclist with a right hand turn across a busy bike lane). I had yet another coworker complain of the same thing: a cyclist who got mad when she slowed to try to be safe. Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do? Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to turn across the bike lane.

joec@aracnet.com

Personally - the cyclist(s) who got mad were dicks.

If I am on my bike and a motorist(s) stops and waits for me to ride
through
(this is if I am at a stop), then I give a smile and a wave.

Sadly, I have had many a motorist curse me for being IN the bike lane
and
held them on their way to grab a latte.

Joe

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 10:54:04 -0700, Maggie wrote:
> A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the
> Vancouver bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes
> the bike lane as very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed
> today (with her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned
> right. The cyclist got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad
> because she perceived herself as trying to be nice (and not smash into
> a cyclist with a right hand turn across a busy bike lane). I had yet
> another coworker complain of the same thing: a cyclist who got mad
> when she slowed to try to be safe.
> Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do?
> Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to
> turn across the bike lane.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Dan H

That is a situation where cyclists need to be aware of what's going on
around them. When I come up on a car with it's right blinker on, I move left
to pass on the left. I actually got a ticket for that once but it's another
story and the case was thrown out.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Maggie"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 10:54 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane

>A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the
>Vancouver bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the
>bike lane as very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with
>her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned right. The
>cyclist got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad because she perceived
>herself as trying to be nice (and not smash into a cyclist with a right
>hand turn across a busy bike lane). I had yet another coworker complain of
>the same thing: a cyclist who got mad when she slowed to try to be safe.
> Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do?
> Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to
> turn across the bike lane.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mark J. Ginsberg

Maggie,

I have litigated right hook crashes on NE Broadway and Vancouver quite a bit,
sadly, it keeps me busy.

>From a cyclists view, the car driver passes, signals (or while signalling) then
slows down.
For a cyclist, it is better to have the driver sit behind the cyclist while
heading down that road, and turn behind the cyclist, but this doesn't always
work, especially somewhere like NE Vancouver with heavy bicycle traffic.

For a purely legal view, the bike lane is a lane of traffic, so imaging you are
in the middle lane and to your right in a travel lane full of honda scooters,
and little smart cars. You want to turn right from your middle lane, but there
are endless smart cars coming from behind you in that right lane. I hope we
would all agree that the right turning driver needs to wait for an opening to
turn across the lane of honda scooters and smarmy Portland smart car users. Now
pretend the smart cars are BTA members and the honda scooter are fixed gear
hipsters. Your movement analysis and legal analysis should be the same.

I can't speak to, or for, the cyclist who got mad, but if a driver is
signalling, that's good. if I am alone and someone is trying to turn right, I
may give up my legal right, if it keeps me safer, but with a ton of cyclists,
that can be a hard right turn.

Maggie, feel free to send this to your friend. I think your friend was correct
to signal and wait, and really if our biggest problem in Portland is having too
much bicycle traffic and car drivers who are asking the best/nicest/safest way
to get around those cyclist, well I'd say we are doing pretty good.

Mark

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
www.bikesafetylaw.com

________________________________
From: Maggie
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 10:54:04 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] safe right hand turn over bike lane

A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the Vancouver
bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the bike lane as
very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with her signal on) to
allow a bike to pass before she turned right. The cyclist got very mad at her,
and it made her feel bad because she perceived herself as trying to be nice (and
not smash into a cyclist with a right hand turn across a busy bike lane). I had
yet another coworker complain of the same thing: a cyclist who got mad when she
slowed to try to be safe.

Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do? Remember
this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to turn across the
bike lane.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Maggie

A coworker today asked me how she should make a right turn over the Vancouver bike lane. She commutes that way (by car) and she describes the bike lane as very busy. Trying to be accommodating, she slowed today (with her signal on) to allow a bike to pass before she turned right. The cyclist got very mad at her, and it made her feel bad because she perceived herself as trying to be nice (and not smash into a cyclist with a right hand turn across a busy bike lane). I had yet another coworker complain of the same thing: a cyclist who got mad when she slowed to try to be safe.
Anyone want to comment on the law versus the expected thing to do? Remember this is a "highway" as she calls it and so it is difficult to turn across the bike lane.