Sarah Tisdale

Here's an idea: Race the smaller CX races!

CX Crusade is fantastic and does a great job with huge numbers, but the
smaller races are a breath of fresh air after the somewhat oppressive crush
(parking, starts, passing, ...) of the Crusade "scene".

With the GPMC series, there's now an extra "series" element to the smaller
races.

Sarah

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 9:33 AM, wrote:

> John Wilson wins the BEST IDEA award, because in the end he is right. If
> it can be done for a few races..............it can be done for all the
> races.
> I could care less what group I race with because passing or being passed it
> part of the fun for me, but for those who have all these concerns about
> call-ups, fast starts etc..................just put the kids in their own
> race and lets NOT hear any more "crap" about having to race with mixed with
> other cats. If we are that serious....we should be racing just the A race
> or over in Europe!
> Cranky old man...........ron
>
> -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 8:21 PM
>
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
>
> Here is a novel idea: Make a Junior only race slot mid day, say 12 Noon. No
> adults on the course. Juniors only. This is what Washington does (has a
> Junior only time slot). To do this promoters will have two challenges to
> work out.
>
> 1. Need to find a way to give the scorers/chief Ref a break somehow
> (normally scorers/ref take a lunch break during the kiddie cross).
> 2. Find a way to do your Kiddie Cross race in parallel to the Junior race.
> Some separate course that does not interfere with the regular course.
>
> This would be the best for the Juniors I think. Not to mention great for
> the
> development of our beloved sport. All Juniors, 10-18, Men and Women on the
> course at once. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this got so large we had to
> figure out how to break it up!!!!
>
> By the way, the Juniors are some of the most gracious racers I have ever
> seen. They give plenty of room, show great sportsmanship, respect, and pass
> with care when they catch younger junior racers.
>
> John Wilson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.**obra.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Trevor Schauer
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:29 PM
> To: 'Tim Schauer'; 'Killian Bailey'
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'Jeff Parker'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
>
> My point of view-somebody is going to be unhappy with the situation
> no matter what it turns out to be. For me, as one of the 'faster' juniors
> (2
> Crusade wins last year) I spend nearly all of my race attempting to pass
> riders from both Masters categories. Often times, my race can be decided
> by
> who moves better through traffic, and who gets stuck behind some of the
> Masters, which is sometimes a matter of luck. Starting the Junior Men in
> front of the 50+ last year helped immensely in terms of sorting out who
> really is the fastest rider on any course-but then the 50+ers are stuck in
> the same predicament. It's true, many of the Juniors are much slower, and
> the Junior A/B category makes sense for race start times, but how would you
> sort that out? A qualifier? A couple of trial races? No option that comes
> to
> mind makes much sense to me.
> Starting us with the beginners is an even greater nightmare. Putting
> inexperienced (and I realize that this can be applied loosely) racers along
> with younger kids in their first season comprises a recipe for disaster. In
> addition, many Juniors have parents who race in the upper categories later
> in the day, and this inconveniences many families who would, in turn, have
> little choice but to stay at the venue for more of the day. And yes,
> today,
> the front 5 Junior Men caught and passed every last one of the Beginner
> Men,
> Beginner Women, B Women, Master B Women, and 45+ women within 35 minutes of
> race time, and everyone started 45-90 seconds in front of us, with an
> enormous amount of traffic to sort through.
> Still, what possible solution is there to this problem? The most
> logical thing seems to be to keep things as they are, starting behind the
> 50+, and make do with it as is, since adding the Juniors to any other start
> time would basically then make that race the largest of the day, and thus
> result in different unhappy people.
>
> Trevor Schauer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.**obra.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Tim Schauer
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:28 PM
> To: Killian Bailey
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff Parker
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
>
> Those first 5 juniors today past all riders in the fields in front of them.
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:32 PM, Killian Bailey
> wrote:
>
> Just split the Juniors into "fast," and "less fast." "Fast" juniors
>>
> starting today behind 4 fields, including beginner men and beginner women
> was a nightmare.
>
>>
>> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:58:55 -0700
>> > From: jsp737@gmail.com
>> > To: obra@list.obra.org
>> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
>> >
>> > I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and
>>
> Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so much
> mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of
> the
> 50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long enough
> for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start
> catching
> them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then it
> would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then
> everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a disadvantage
> for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but
> seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few years
> left to race and they have decades to go.
>
>> > ______________________________**_________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

rondot@spiritone.com

John Wilson wins the BEST IDEA award, because in the end he is right. If it
can be done for a few races..............it can be done for all the races.
I could care less what group I race with because passing or being passed it
part of the fun for me, but for those who have all these concerns about
call-ups, fast starts etc..................just put the kids in their own
race and lets NOT hear any more "crap" about having to race with mixed with
other cats. If we are that serious....we should be racing just the A race
or over in Europe!
Cranky old man...........ron

-----Original Message-----
From: John Wilson
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 8:21 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!

Here is a novel idea: Make a Junior only race slot mid day, say 12 Noon. No
adults on the course. Juniors only. This is what Washington does (has a
Junior only time slot). To do this promoters will have two challenges to
work out.

1. Need to find a way to give the scorers/chief Ref a break somehow
(normally scorers/ref take a lunch break during the kiddie cross).
2. Find a way to do your Kiddie Cross race in parallel to the Junior race.
Some separate course that does not interfere with the regular course.

This would be the best for the Juniors I think. Not to mention great for the
development of our beloved sport. All Juniors, 10-18, Men and Women on the
course at once. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this got so large we had to
figure out how to break it up!!!!

By the way, the Juniors are some of the most gracious racers I have ever
seen. They give plenty of room, show great sportsmanship, respect, and pass
with care when they catch younger junior racers.

John Wilson

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Trevor Schauer
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:29 PM
To: 'Tim Schauer'; 'Killian Bailey'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'Jeff Parker'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!

My point of view-somebody is going to be unhappy with the situation
no matter what it turns out to be. For me, as one of the 'faster' juniors (2
Crusade wins last year) I spend nearly all of my race attempting to pass
riders from both Masters categories. Often times, my race can be decided by
who moves better through traffic, and who gets stuck behind some of the
Masters, which is sometimes a matter of luck. Starting the Junior Men in
front of the 50+ last year helped immensely in terms of sorting out who
really is the fastest rider on any course-but then the 50+ers are stuck in
the same predicament. It's true, many of the Juniors are much slower, and
the Junior A/B category makes sense for race start times, but how would you
sort that out? A qualifier? A couple of trial races? No option that comes to
mind makes much sense to me.
Starting us with the beginners is an even greater nightmare. Putting
inexperienced (and I realize that this can be applied loosely) racers along
with younger kids in their first season comprises a recipe for disaster. In
addition, many Juniors have parents who race in the upper categories later
in the day, and this inconveniences many families who would, in turn, have
little choice but to stay at the venue for more of the day. And yes, today,
the front 5 Junior Men caught and passed every last one of the Beginner Men,
Beginner Women, B Women, Master B Women, and 45+ women within 35 minutes of
race time, and everyone started 45-90 seconds in front of us, with an
enormous amount of traffic to sort through.
Still, what possible solution is there to this problem? The most
logical thing seems to be to keep things as they are, starting behind the
50+, and make do with it as is, since adding the Juniors to any other start
time would basically then make that race the largest of the day, and thus
result in different unhappy people.

Trevor Schauer

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Tim Schauer
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:28 PM
To: Killian Bailey
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff Parker
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!

Those first 5 juniors today past all riders in the fields in front of them.

Sent from my mobile device

On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:32 PM, Killian Bailey
wrote:

> Just split the Juniors into "fast," and "less fast." "Fast" juniors
starting today behind 4 fields, including beginner men and beginner women
was a nightmare.
>
> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:58:55 -0700
> > From: jsp737@gmail.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
> >
> > I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and
Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so much
mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of the
50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long enough
for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start catching
them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then it
would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then
everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a disadvantage
for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but
seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few years
left to race and they have decades to go.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Todd Mobley

I can appreciate Trevor and Ian's perspective. I'm a Master C and they are
both probably faster than me. Still, my son is now old enough to move out of
the Kiddie Cross ranks and race with the big kids. He'll get passed...a lot.
He's on his own cross bike we built together last winter and couldn't be
more excited for cross season. There is a HUGE disparity in speed amongst
the juniors.

All I ask of the Master B's and fast juniors is to pass with care and be
nice to the slow juniors. They gotta start racing somehow and they'll race
the slot their given.

Peace and mud, peace and mud.

-T

Sent from mobile

On Aug 28, 2011 8:21 PM, "John Wilson" wrote:
> Here is a novel idea: Make a Junior only race slot mid day, say 12 Noon.
No
> adults on the course. Juniors only. This is what Washington does (has a
> Junior only time slot). To do this promoters will have two challenges to
> work out.
>
> 1. Need to find a way to give the scorers/chief Ref a break somehow
> (normally scorers/ref take a lunch break during the kiddie cross).
> 2. Find a way to do your Kiddie Cross race in parallel to the Junior race.
> Some separate course that does not interfere with the regular course.
>
> This would be the best for the Juniors I think. Not to mention great for
the
> development of our beloved sport. All Juniors, 10-18, Men and Women on the
> course at once. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this got so large we had to
> figure out how to break it up!!!!
>
> By the way, the Juniors are some of the most gracious racers I have ever
> seen. They give plenty of room, show great sportsmanship, respect, and
pass
> with care when they catch younger junior racers.
>
> John Wilson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Trevor Schauer
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:29 PM
> To: 'Tim Schauer'; 'Killian Bailey'
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'Jeff Parker'
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
>
> My point of view-somebody is going to be unhappy with the situation
> no matter what it turns out to be. For me, as one of the 'faster' juniors
(2
> Crusade wins last year) I spend nearly all of my race attempting to pass
> riders from both Masters categories. Often times, my race can be decided
by
> who moves better through traffic, and who gets stuck behind some of the
> Masters, which is sometimes a matter of luck. Starting the Junior Men in
> front of the 50+ last year helped immensely in terms of sorting out who
> really is the fastest rider on any course-but then the 50+ers are stuck in
> the same predicament. It's true, many of the Juniors are much slower, and
> the Junior A/B category makes sense for race start times, but how would
you
> sort that out? A qualifier? A couple of trial races? No option that comes
to
> mind makes much sense to me.
> Starting us with the beginners is an even greater nightmare. Putting
> inexperienced (and I realize that this can be applied loosely) racers
along
> with younger kids in their first season comprises a recipe for disaster.
In
> addition, many Juniors have parents who race in the upper categories later
> in the day, and this inconveniences many families who would, in turn, have
> little choice but to stay at the venue for more of the day. And yes,
today,
> the front 5 Junior Men caught and passed every last one of the Beginner
Men,
> Beginner Women, B Women, Master B Women, and 45+ women within 35 minutes
of
> race time, and everyone started 45-90 seconds in front of us, with an
> enormous amount of traffic to sort through.
> Still, what possible solution is there to this problem? The most
> logical thing seems to be to keep things as they are, starting behind the
> 50+, and make do with it as is, since adding the Juniors to any other
start
> time would basically then make that race the largest of the day, and thus
> result in different unhappy people.
>
> Trevor Schauer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Tim Schauer
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:28 PM
> To: Killian Bailey
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff Parker
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
>
> Those first 5 juniors today past all riders in the fields in front of
them.
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:32 PM, Killian Bailey
> wrote:
>
>> Just split the Juniors into "fast," and "less fast." "Fast" juniors
> starting today behind 4 fields, including beginner men and beginner women
> was a nightmare.
>>
>> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:58:55 -0700
>> > From: jsp737@gmail.com
>> > To: obra@list.obra.org
>> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
>> >
>> > I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and
> Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so
much
> mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of
the
> 50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long
enough
> for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start
catching
> them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then
it
> would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then
> everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a
disadvantage
> for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but
> seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few
years
> left to race and they have decades to go.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

John Wilson

Here is a novel idea: Make a Junior only race slot mid day, say 12 Noon. No
adults on the course. Juniors only. This is what Washington does (has a
Junior only time slot). To do this promoters will have two challenges to
work out.

1. Need to find a way to give the scorers/chief Ref a break somehow
(normally scorers/ref take a lunch break during the kiddie cross).
2. Find a way to do your Kiddie Cross race in parallel to the Junior race.
Some separate course that does not interfere with the regular course.

This would be the best for the Juniors I think. Not to mention great for the
development of our beloved sport. All Juniors, 10-18, Men and Women on the
course at once. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this got so large we had to
figure out how to break it up!!!!

By the way, the Juniors are some of the most gracious racers I have ever
seen. They give plenty of room, show great sportsmanship, respect, and pass
with care when they catch younger junior racers.

John Wilson

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Trevor Schauer
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 6:29 PM
To: 'Tim Schauer'; 'Killian Bailey'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'Jeff Parker'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!

My point of view-somebody is going to be unhappy with the situation
no matter what it turns out to be. For me, as one of the 'faster' juniors (2
Crusade wins last year) I spend nearly all of my race attempting to pass
riders from both Masters categories. Often times, my race can be decided by
who moves better through traffic, and who gets stuck behind some of the
Masters, which is sometimes a matter of luck. Starting the Junior Men in
front of the 50+ last year helped immensely in terms of sorting out who
really is the fastest rider on any course-but then the 50+ers are stuck in
the same predicament. It's true, many of the Juniors are much slower, and
the Junior A/B category makes sense for race start times, but how would you
sort that out? A qualifier? A couple of trial races? No option that comes to
mind makes much sense to me.
Starting us with the beginners is an even greater nightmare. Putting
inexperienced (and I realize that this can be applied loosely) racers along
with younger kids in their first season comprises a recipe for disaster. In
addition, many Juniors have parents who race in the upper categories later
in the day, and this inconveniences many families who would, in turn, have
little choice but to stay at the venue for more of the day. And yes, today,
the front 5 Junior Men caught and passed every last one of the Beginner Men,
Beginner Women, B Women, Master B Women, and 45+ women within 35 minutes of
race time, and everyone started 45-90 seconds in front of us, with an
enormous amount of traffic to sort through.
Still, what possible solution is there to this problem? The most
logical thing seems to be to keep things as they are, starting behind the
50+, and make do with it as is, since adding the Juniors to any other start
time would basically then make that race the largest of the day, and thus
result in different unhappy people.

Trevor Schauer

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Tim Schauer
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:28 PM
To: Killian Bailey
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff Parker
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!

Those first 5 juniors today past all riders in the fields in front of them.

Sent from my mobile device

On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:32 PM, Killian Bailey
wrote:

> Just split the Juniors into "fast," and "less fast." "Fast" juniors
starting today behind 4 fields, including beginner men and beginner women
was a nightmare.
>
> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:58:55 -0700
> > From: jsp737@gmail.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
> >
> > I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and
Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so much
mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of the
50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long enough
for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start catching
them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then it
would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then
everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a disadvantage
for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but
seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few years
left to race and they have decades to go.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Trevor Schauer

My point of view-somebody is going to be unhappy with the situation
no matter what it turns out to be. For me, as one of the 'faster' juniors (2
Crusade wins last year) I spend nearly all of my race attempting to pass
riders from both Masters categories. Often times, my race can be decided by
who moves better through traffic, and who gets stuck behind some of the
Masters, which is sometimes a matter of luck. Starting the Junior Men in
front of the 50+ last year helped immensely in terms of sorting out who
really is the fastest rider on any course-but then the 50+ers are stuck in
the same predicament. It's true, many of the Juniors are much slower, and
the Junior A/B category makes sense for race start times, but how would you
sort that out? A qualifier? A couple of trial races? No option that comes to
mind makes much sense to me.
Starting us with the beginners is an even greater nightmare. Putting
inexperienced (and I realize that this can be applied loosely) racers along
with younger kids in their first season comprises a recipe for disaster. In
addition, many Juniors have parents who race in the upper categories later
in the day, and this inconveniences many families who would, in turn, have
little choice but to stay at the venue for more of the day. And yes, today,
the front 5 Junior Men caught and passed every last one of the Beginner Men,
Beginner Women, B Women, Master B Women, and 45+ women within 35 minutes of
race time, and everyone started 45-90 seconds in front of us, with an
enormous amount of traffic to sort through.
Still, what possible solution is there to this problem? The most
logical thing seems to be to keep things as they are, starting behind the
50+, and make do with it as is, since adding the Juniors to any other start
time would basically then make that race the largest of the day, and thus
result in different unhappy people.

Trevor Schauer

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Tim Schauer
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:28 PM
To: Killian Bailey
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff Parker
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!

Those first 5 juniors today past all riders in the fields in front of them.

Sent from my mobile device

On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:32 PM, Killian Bailey
wrote:

> Just split the Juniors into "fast," and "less fast." "Fast" juniors
starting today behind 4 fields, including beginner men and beginner women
was a nightmare.
>
> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:58:55 -0700
> > From: jsp737@gmail.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
> >
> > I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and
Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so much
mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of the
50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long enough
for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start catching
them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then it
would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then
everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a disadvantage
for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but
seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few years
left to race and they have decades to go.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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Tim Schauer

Those first 5 juniors today past all riders in the fields in front of them.

Sent from my mobile device

On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:32 PM, Killian Bailey wrote:

> Just split the Juniors into "fast," and "less fast." "Fast" juniors starting today behind 4 fields, including beginner men and beginner women was a nightmare.
>
> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:58:55 -0700
> > From: jsp737@gmail.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
> >
> > I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so much mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of the 50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long enough for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start catching them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then it would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a disadvantage for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few years left to race and they have decades to go.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Sam Rosenberg

I agree with Killian by saying it would be nice to have A and B category's for the juniors. It seems like it would clog up all of the races a lot less.

Sam Rosenberg
2032 Todd ST
Eugene, OR
541-517-7252

On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:32 PM, Killian Bailey wrote:

> Just split the Juniors into "fast," and "less fast." "Fast" juniors starting today behind 4 fields, including beginner men and beginner women was a nightmare.
>
> > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:58:55 -0700
> > From: jsp737@gmail.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
> >
> > I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so much mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of the 50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long enough for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start catching them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then it would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a disadvantage for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few years left to race and they have decades to go.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Killian Bailey

Just split the Juniors into "fast," and "less fast." "Fast" juniors starting today behind 4 fields, including beginner men and beginner women was a nightmare.

> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:58:55 -0700
> From: jsp737@gmail.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Fw: Cyclocross Starts!
>
> I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so much mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of the 50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long enough for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start catching them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then it would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a disadvantage for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few years left to race and they have decades to go.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jeff Parker

I think Steve is on to something here. The reality is the 50+ group and Master B groups are pretty fast, at least the top guys are. I don't so much mind running with the juniors, but I do mind when they start in front of the 50+ group. The majority of the junior group can't stay in front long enough for us old guys to get sorted out and single file. We usually start catching them within 1/2 a lap or so. If they just started the juniors last, then it would probably be 1-2 laps before they started getting lapped, and by then everyone would be pretty sorted out. I realize this would be a disadvantage for the fast, older juniors who would catch the slowest old guys, but seniority should have some privilege shouldn't it? We only have a few years left to race and they have decades to go.

Steve Lacey

Hi Candi:
Have the race promoters agreed on a start time order for categories?  I know much discussion occurred last year about evening out race sizes.  In particular, the Master B, 50+, and juniors races were significantly larger than every other race.  This caused a compromised experience for juniors and the other classes.  Many juniors get intimidated by fast racers and I ended up with a broken hand when a junior squirreled-out  and went down right in front of me for no apparent reason.  I ran over him and crashed.  That really sucked for both of us.

The point is, they need to be with the beginners where the size is smaller, speeds are slower and more in line with their experience, and the course is in better shape.   This should help even out the largest race and put the smallest race more in line with the rest of the races. John Wilson might want to weigh in on this as he he has a pulse on the junior racers.

Please feel free to discuss this with the promoters if it hasn't already been dealt with.

Best regards
Steve Lacey

________________________________
From: Candi Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Saturday, 27 August 2011 9:41 PM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Cyclocross Starts!

Thank you for racing
Cyclocross!  We are so excited to send out our annual ‘Welcome to Cyclocross’ note.  The whole OBRA CCX staff appreciates your participation and hopes that your love of this wacky sport will match our own.  There are a few things that will make the experience more enjoyable for you and for us!

NEW FOR 2011:

1.    At the 2011 Annual Meeting team voted to revert back to the standard age calculations. So your cyclocross age is the age you will be as of December 31, 2011.
2.    When you pick up your Cyclocross number you will be issued a corresponding shoulder number. We ask that you wear this number on your left shoulder at all cyclocross events.  To be clear, two numbers: one on your left side side and one on your shoulder at all races.
3.    If you lose either of your numbers, you will be asked to purchase a new set for $5.00. Handwritten numbers will not be
allowed.
4.    On results, only team names, that have paid their OBRA dues will show up. If you have questions about this, contact Kenji at kenji@obra.org.

Categories for Cyclocross are primarily self selected. A general guideline to help you pick the correct category is:

Category A- Elite level riders.
Category B- Cat 3 Road or Cat 2 MTB riders.
Category C- This category exists in the men's fields only. Cat 4/5 Road, Cat 3 MTB,
Beginner- Those new to the sport.
Master's- CCX age 35+ unless noted on the race flyer.  Master's may be limited by categories listed above.
Juniors- CCX .  Because of safety concerns, children with an actual age of 12 and under may not race at the same time as adults.
Clydesdale- 200+ pounds

It is very important that you keep the number. Don’t assume that one number will work for all the
races you attend.  While most races will use the OBRA CCX numbers, some may not. Please confirm before you race and wear the correct number.  Also be aware that each category will have a different number sequence so make sure you are wearing the correct number sequence for the correct race.  We have made this easy by printing the category along the bottom of the number.  So… if you are racing the Singlespeed race, make sure you’re not wearing a number that says Masters C along the bottom.  If that happens it will appear to us as if someone else is racing. If you upgrade or will be racing an additional category for which you qualify, you’ll need to pick up a different number for your new category. Make sure to keep your numbers separate and wear the correct one for the correct race! In your rush to get ready don’t pin your Clydesdale shoulder number on with your Category A side number.

The number should always be
pinned on the left side. The first pin should go just down from the armpit and the others should keep the number taut and secure on your left side.  Feel free to use more than 4 pins.  The photo below shows the rider on the left with perfect number placement, while the rider on the right, unfortunately, does not.

(oops photo does not print here)

Cyclocross is scored using human scorers and a high speed Finish Lynx camera to record every number, every lap.  At a regular Cross Crusade race this means we will record between 8,000 and 10,000 numbers.  Because this is so labor intensive it is very important that your number placement is correct.  Incorrect or unreadable numbers will lead to many additional hours of work for the officials and result in erroneous results. Our unofficial policy has been ‘No visible number, no score.’  Also, do not sit up until after you have crossed the finish line
completely and do not cross the finish line more than once.  Any movement in front of the camera activates it. Please do not walk in front of the camera.

Most races will be unable to post results at the event. You can find them later at www.obra.org.  If you feel a mistake has been made, it is your responsibility to notify the judges within 24 hours of the internet posting. You can find the email for your Chief Judge at the top of the results page for the race.  Make sure that you include the race you participated in, your race number, what you were wearing and what you think the error might be.  Results will be considered final 24 hours after the final posting on our website.  Please do not ask us to make corrections weeks after the event.

Remember:

1.    The Finish Lynx camera is motion activated so please avoid walking, or standing in front of it.  Every time it is activated it
takes the scorers away from actually doing their job. Never ride or walk backwards past the finish line after you have finished.

2.    Once racing has begun, warm up on the course is not allowed.  There will be some short warm-up periods allowed; check on the race flyer or at registration.  Please do not ride while other categories are racing. The penalty for this may be disqualification.

3.    Rowdy spectators are a part of Cyclocross so please enjoy yourselves; however, please do not ring any bells around the finish line.  The bell signifies the last lap and oxygen-deprived competitors are easily confused.  Take your cowbells to the run ups, and yell and ring to your heart’s content.

4.    If an official removes you from a race, requests for you to put on a helmet, or any other request please follow their instructions.  Failure to comply with requests from
officials may result in you being excluded from racing in the future.

5.    If you have a suggestion or concern, contact the promoters, the Chief Official or OBRA.  Please do not complain to a volunteer or the property manager.

6.    Be a responsible citizen.  Poor behavior reflects upon us all.  Don’t urinate in public, litter, drink alcohol when not allowed, ride across sports fields, or use foul language.  Complaints from the general public make it very difficult to secure a location for races the next year.

7.    Have fun!
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